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Back in the 1980s, Superman did this in one comic story - a villain had placed six kidnap victims into lead-lined boxes (with life support) scattered throughout the city, reasoning that Superman's X-ray vision could not see into lead boxes.

So Superman scanned the city for lead boxes - which are obvious to his vision, since it's the only thing he can't see - to find those large enough to contain human beings, then flew to each and ripped it open, thus finding and rescuing the hostages...

I think I've answered my own question.

Searching the Bestiary I find other abilities that inflict negative levels but are not called Energy Drain - for example, a nabasu's Death-Stealing Gaze, which has a saving throw to avoid initially.

So - the nabasu's gaze produces a negative level that is guaranteed to eventually go away on its own, while a succubus' kiss - being called Energy Drain, gets only one save, a day later.

I feel like the question that this thread is about didn't exactly get answered and I'm mostly wondering if everyone just came to the conclusion I did, that there's a misleading rule that always winds up superseded and never applies.

Here is the general negative level rule, from above, with two sections bolded that are the focus of the question I don't think was answered yet.

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I know the specific overrides the general, so the universal monster rule supersedes the default negative level rule.

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The universal monster rules are that (a) you don't get an initial saving throw to avoid the negative level; it's just like a stat drain, affecting the target on (typically) a hit or touch, so thre's nothing for the default rule's "new saving throw" to be "the same as"; (b) you only get one chance to avoid it becoming a "permanent" negative level, 24 hours later, if the effect is caused by any monster attack.

My question - and I suspect the OP's question - is if there are any conditions at all under which the default - a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day - actually holds?

It doesn't hold under either enervation or energy drain, the other two obvious ways to get a temporary negative level.

Is there any circumstance under which a character receives a temporary negative level, rolls a fortitude save after 24 hours to remove it, and if that fails, gets another fortitude save another 24 hours after that to remove it, and so on until removed? That is the "default" behavior of negative levels, but nothing seems to follow this "default" rule.

The additional thing here that I've noticed - playing in an urban campaign - is that the decision of whether to wait 24 hours after enduring an energy drain is an almost strictly economic/mathematical one. For characters under 7th level who need to have a cleric cast the spell for them, the spell costs (7x4x10)+100=380 gold to cast if you cast it before the 24 hours are up, but 1280 gold (1000 instead of 100 material component) to cast the spell after 24 hours. And that this means that you're better off waiting until after 24 hours are up if, and only if, you have a 70% or better chance of removing the level on your own with a Fortitude save (that is, if you would remove the negative level by rolling a 7 or better, make the roll; otherwise, get it taken care of without trying to make the save.)

(Most active players probably have moved on to 2nd ed - I will, one day, but not yet - so there might not be much interest in this now, but it's ... well, the system is not without its oddities; did I miss anything?

Thanks for the responses!

I do have a sense that my PCs would have rather remained in Sargava and joined the abolitionists.

My players rather enjoyed the "moral dilemma" that Gelik was so obnoxious that he turned them off to joining with the obviously-mostly-good-guys Pathfinders; they've come here with Kassata.

But when I introduce Mzali as a real force, yeah, it's going to be a very different experience for us. I've been thinking ahead to that a bit.

Knowing that the editors had to slap together the unfinished document explains a lot, and actually makes me feel better about the adventure - because I've been on both sides of looming deadlines and the all-nighters pulled to get a product together. It puts the things that don't quite make sense into context and makes me feel better about saying "yeah, this doesn't work, I'm changing it, this is probably what they'd have done if they had editing time" instead of making a change and then realizing it is attached to too many other threads down the line.

I found someone's "Changes to the City of Seven Spears" PDF, and just as an outline of additional things to do with the city it's a great resource. I'm trying to catch up on some of the decade of threads of information here, and we're starting to enjoy exploring the city a bit. I feel less like I"m letting my players down.

I have a few problems with the Serpents Skull AP that... are making it really hard for me to set up and continue the story.

I've been playing this campaign, with long breaks, for a couple years now, and tonight my PCs have finally acquired Briar and heard the story of Nyrissa from Evindra.

I've posted before, but to review: I have three players - twin half-elves and their gnome druid friend. Royce and Serafina share rulership: Serafina, a sorceress of Sarenrae, is the Queen, and her brother is the Spymaster and father of the Heir.

The Consort is Melianse the Nixie. This has led to a satisfyingly deeper relationship of my players to the Stolen Lands...

Melianse, Evindra, and Nyrissa, a nixie, a nereid, and a nymph, are all water fey. I have decided that fey families need not be all of the same species... and thus decided early in the campaign that Melianse is the daughter of Evindra, and Evindra's grandmother was the sister of Nyrissa.

This means that by marrying Melianse, the player characters are <i>family</i> to Nyrissa - and not only that, the Heir to the Throne of Narland (and thus all the Stolen Lands) has fey blood and is of Nyrissa's bloodline.

This has opened the door for me to play up the fey connections of the Stolen Lands - and to have legend lores suggest that the Lands themselves, even without the machinations of Nyrissa, would have eventually destroyed their kingdom - were it not for the fact that the legitimate royal family is now tied into the fey nature of the Lands.

I decided tonight also to pull back the curtain a bit. My players are quite impressed by the way this has fit together and foreshadowed all along - it has been great fun to leave little hints of Nyrissa starting all the way back with the Stag Lord, and with little stray comments by their old friends Tyg-Titter-Tut and Perlivash, that now finally make sense and have context.

Because Darby, the gnome druid, has been slightly less of a central character, she has been brought into the center of the adventure now by the revelation that Briar is an undersized scythe, and thus clearly intended to be wielded by the gnome druid.

The players were kind of astonished that it was not part of the module as published for the ruler to marry a fey, specifically to marry into this family, because it seems so obvious to them in retrospect, and to add so much to the story to make the Heir so crucial.

I reminded them that the original reason they had for Royce to pursue Melianse was actually nothing but powergaming: the Consort would add half their Charisma bonus to the nation's Loyalty, and Melianse's Charisma made her an obvious choice. The story parts came later.

As my son (who's watching the campaign) put it: "Let me get this straight. Marrying Melianse makes sense from the roleplaying standpoint, because a fey heir can save the kingdom. It makes sense from a powergaming standpoint, because she gives the most plusses to running the country. And it makes sense from the horny teenager standpoint, because she's the hottest girl in the story. Those are like the three demographics of roleplaying games. How is it that the designers didn't expect her to become the consort?"

My Kingmaker campaign is currently finishing RRR. But I wanted to take the time to share this story from earlier this year, because my PCs are still talking about this battle. The climax of Stolen Lands was one of my favorite sessions in nearly forty years of DMing D&D in all its various editions.

This is the tale of how 3 PCs, having just reached 3rd level, took down the Stag Lord and all his minions.

Cast of characters:
Serafina, a half-elf Celestial-bloodline sorcerer, follower of Sarenrae
Royce, her twin, a half-elf rogue, dual-wielding a pair of shortswords
Darby, a gnome druid, with Norbert, her badger

Having interrogated prisoners and learned what they could of the Stag Lord's forces, our intrepid adventurers decide to make themselves look disreputable (as much so as Serafina could manage, anyway) and present themselves as new mercenaries in the cause of the Stag Lord.

Successful Bluff and Diplomacy checks (from Royce and Serafina, respectively) get them into the fort. They are introduced to the soldiers. Royce throws around Sense Motive liberally, identifying the simmering conflict between Akiros and Dovan, and divining the Stag Lord's issues with alcohol. Darby remains beneath most of the bandits' notice and manages to climb to a spot where she can observe the owlbear in its pen.

The day passes into the evening; Royce works hard to bond with Akiros, eventually encouraging him to spar and discuss elements of his life. Darby meets several of the isolated guards in their towers and spends time talking to Auchs, repulsed by his casual cruelty but finding his low intelligence and bravery to be a potential tool; she also quietly directs Norbert to undermine certain post-holes around the owlbear's pen. Serafina has a moment to cast message on her friends around sunset, and with her 18 CHA, has convinced Dovan of her helpfulness and pretended to a level of dimwitted loyalty, favorably comparing him to Akiros and suggesting her brother could be a more loyal and helpful lieutenant to the Stag Lord than one whom Dovan so obviously mistrusted. She then engages three of the off-duty bandits in a game of cards, gathered around a crate in the armory, while Dovan sits and contemplates her words (and her).

Royce ultimately gains enough information from Akiros to figure out his discontent with the Stag Lord, and in the course of their sparring and conversation becomes increasingly direct in suggesting that Akiros was too good a man to follow such a dark course. When Akiros looked like he might consider those words, Royce turned his head and murmured "We have an ally. We should act" into the message.

Darby, having returned to the pen, summons a monkey and speaks to it, telling it to throw the other latch; she and the monkey unlock it as she prepares to throw a flare to enrage the owlbear. "Go," she whispers into Serafina's spell.

Serafina goes to the door of the armory. "Dovan? Should there be a light out there by that beast's pen?" Dovan goes through the door and temporarily out of line of sight. Serafina smiles sweetly at the three mooks and color sprays the room. None of them make a DC 15 save.

She then whirls to face Dovan, who walks directly into Serafina's charm person without seeing the room of unconscious brigands behind her.

The owlbear roars and smashes through the open gate of its pen.

Royce, two blades in his hands, looks meaningfully at Akiros. "We are taking them down. Are you with me or with them?"

Meanwhile, Serafina looks at Dovan with a mixture of alarm and craftiness. "If that creature is loose, I can get Akiros to die defending me - with your help. Come on!"

From the watchtowers come calls of alarm. "That gnome let the beast out!" The mooks on guard start descending their towers to the main floor.

Akiros makes his decision. "Through that door -- " he points -- "is the Stag Lord, drunk off his ass."
Royce nods. "What are you going to do?"
Akiros swings his sword in a vertical salute to the half-elf. "Deal with Dovan."

Darby curses her poor stealth; she hadn't avoided drawing attention. Norbert snarls and stands beside her.

Dovan and Serafina, the mooks from the watchtowers, and Akiros all reach the common area in the center of the keep at the same moment. The owlbear leaps out of its pen. "Dovan! Auchs can distract it!" Serafina shouts. Dovan nods to the huge man and points; Auch's eyes widen, but his pride in his brawn overcomes what little sense he has, and he charges the huge creature.

"What about the gnome!" shouts one of the mooks. "She came in with that witch-woman, and she's who let out the owlbear! Aren't they together?"

"No!" should both Dovan and Akiros at the same moment. The two lieutenants stop, do a doubletake, and stare at one another for a moment, each trying to figure out the other's motives for lying.

But faced with this unambiguous direction from their two usually-at-odds superiors, the remaining mooks charge Darby, leaving Akiros, Serafina, and Dovan facing one another. Dovan draws his knife and smiles cruelly as Serafina slips behind Akiros.

"Flank him, lady, and I will do the rest," shouts Dovan.

Serafina drops her staff and backs away as Akiros raises his sword.

Royce, meanwhile, has snuck into the chamber of the Stag Lord; he raises his shortsword to apply a coup de grace to the bandit leader - but something in the helm must have warned him; Royce lands a blow but not a fatal one, and the huge man roars in outrage, rolling away and stumbling to his feet.

The gnome stands her ground, a tiny figure against four charging humans. She gestures, and a flaming sphere appears, rolling right into one of the mooks, who spins screaming, on fire from head to toe. Norbert the badger leaps at the second, enraged, and drops him instantly. The remaining two reach the gnome, but her small size and quickness evades their first blows.

Craft and malice turn to shock and betrayal in Dovan's eyes as, instead of a rogue with a flanked opponent, he finds himself a small, poorly-armored man facing an enraged, greatsword-wielding ex-paladin. He has time for only an oath and epithet at the sorceress - better omitted - before finding himself impaled on Akiros' blade.

The Stag Lord, meanwhile, gains a shaky equilibrium and, even hung over, is better than holding his own against the inexperienced young half-elf -- but knowing where his true power lies, he wastes an opening to dive instead for his bow, and snatches up an arrow with it. "Somebody get this damned bastard off me!" he roars; Royce pursues desperately, less interested in landing a blow than denying the Stag Lord the opportunity to step back and shoot, perceiving that a great power lay in that helm, and that a single shot from the bow could prove lethal.

"I need help! A distraction! Anybody? Sister! Please?" Royce calls into the message. But he and the Stag Lord are on the far side of the owlbear from any who might interfere.

Darby rolls away, gets back to her feet, and redirects the sphere into another of her opponents; he to lights afire, screaming. She then makes a dramatic gesture and produces flame from her hand. Firelight from multiple sources gleaming in her eyes, she smiles at her final target. "Sure you want to do this?" she asks.

The owlbear, nearby, rips Auchs in half and roars.

The remaining mook drops his weapons and scampers for the exit.

"Norbert! Help Royce!" Darby shouts. Norbert scuttles into one of his pre-dug tunnels, emerging, moments later, thirty feet away, behind the Stag Lord.

Royce leaps forward with both of his swords as the raging badger tears into the bandit king's flank.

The owlbear, so terrifying during the chaos, proves no match for the combined might of the three heroes, a flaming sphere, a still-enraged badger, and an experienced and battle-tested ex-paladin/ex-bandit.

But this means that no one is beside the Stag Lord as he breathes his last. And thus no one hears the name that escapes his lips, in a final, silent plea...

I don't like how Bluff (opposed by Sense Motive, with modifiers), Diplomacy (DC depends on attitude and opponents' CHA), and Intimidate (versus opponent's WIS + HD) all use completely different mechanics, and (among other things) scale very differently (Intimidate is useless at higher levels, Diplomacy becomes awesomely trivial, Bluff becomes trivial except against those trained to notice it).

Further, the mechanics for Charm Person use yet another mechanic - uses the Diplomacy attitude ranks but then just bases further success on opposed CHA rolls.

And yet further, I've been clashing with my players over what seem very inconsistent (and sometimes overpowered) interpretations of how Charm and Suggestion work. A player who was given a suggestion was quite irate that the spell could force him to tackle (grapple with) a friend who was about to attack the person who'd given him the suggestion.

I'd like to unify these mechanics somewhat - and more importantly clarify just what Charm and Suggestion can and can't do, both for gathering information and for gaining advantage in combat, but I am not starting out certain of how I want to do it.

My feeling is that Charm X (person/animal/monster) should be a mostly noncombat spell: a creature already in combat won't change a mind or a target from it. Does that underpower it, in your opinion? Whereas Suggestion, while it is designed primarily for noncombat use, should work like a hypnotic suggestion - "statement X" (whatever the suggestion is) is now part of your assumed reality, and unless/until the target is forced to confront the assumption, they'll unconsciously act in accordance with it. Like "we shouldn't be fighting" or "the baobhan sith must not be harmed", which are ideas you can introduce with a standard action even in the midst of combat.

The place where Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate really get into trouble is when they're combined with Charm Person, in my experience so far. It seems like Bluff is the better/more frequent skill one might use to accompany Charm moreso than Diplomacy, but the spell description seems divorced from skill use (might the CHA vs CHA mechanic predate 3rd edition entirely?), and that seems like one of the holes we could plug.

My vague thoughts on charm:

- Mostly for noncombat uses. You basically can't cast it usefully when already in combat (+5 to save) - it does not cause amnesia.

- You become trusted. Anything else requires more skill rolls - Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate ("I need to know NOW!" "Okay, sheesh!") and so on.

- Makes target friendly, but only that. He's not your confidante, or your comrade-in-arms. Remember there's another category - "helpful" - better than "friendly", and the spell doesn't make the target "helpful".

- A suspicious person is still suspicious. He doesn't forget his secrets need to be kept secret.

- The target still doesn't know you (unless he already knew you). You're a friendly stranger.

- If the target knows you they also know whatever they already knew about you. "I know he attacked me the last time I met. But he seems friendly today. Maybe I'll give him a chance to explain the misunderstanding."

- Works better if the target is isolated. She doesn't forget her other friends, or prefer you to them.

- If you act in a way counter to the target's interests, the game is up and the spell ends.

- It is not an opposed Charisma check. It is an opposed skill check of one or another Charisma-based skill (see above) on your part, and a passive or active Cha, Wis, or Int skill on the target's part (most often Sense Motive or their own Diplomacy).

My vague thoughts on Suggestion:

- Can be cast in combat but works much better if cast outside combat. In combat it lacks the ability to be subtle.

- Can't make the target completely switch sides in combat - won't attack friends with lethal damage.

- Needs to be specific. "Defend me" works.

- The command takes precedence over other priorities. It's like being hypnotized. While spell is in effect, "I have to do this" - you're otherwise normal, but you have a compulsion to perform the specific act and you don't know why or think about why.

- Taking damage in the course of the action, or seeing an action result in damage to a friend, entitles target to another save.

- They don't get stupid, except about this one thing. The target still knows what she knows.

- The reason it's better than charm is that it allows an arbitrary mental-state change (not just "friendship"), lasts longer, and does not require a skill roll.

What do people think? Am I repeating a question others have asked? Does this bother anyone besides me?

I like themed sorcerers, but I'd expect any sorcerer to carry scrolls to cover the sorts of spells she didn't choose to take -- particularly spells that don't depend on saving throws or SR, which are the kinds of spells that belong on scrolls/wands anyway. Does the AP provide decent money and time to purchase magic items?

I'll be writing much more about our campaign in the upcoming weeks and months - Burnt Offerings, done with Pathfinder characters and rules, is the most fun gaming we've had in years.

But today I want to discuss how they handled Erylium.