englishteacherdrew's page

englishteacherdrew wrote:

I wish fans would stop making excuses for the Core Rulebook. Regardless of how big the book may be, there is no reason for it to be convoluted and hard to figure out. Nothing in the book is clear, from how to play to how to level up. As I have said before, don't get me wrong, I love my core rulebook, but the #1 complaint against Pathfinder that I have heard from both experienced players and people who would like to enter into the game alike is that the rulebook is just too hard to follow. There is no reason for that. A simple adjustment in layout and design would fix all of that. Then if Paizo wanted to come out with a strategy guide they could. But "strategy guide" is not the primary purpose of this publication, it is the secondary. Paizo knows this. They have been very honest (to their credit), that this is the primary purpose for the new Strategy Guide.

The bottom line is - whether die hard fans want to be honest and admit it or not - that the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is a mess. It is a mess for experienced players and it is a mess for players new to the game and it is an obstacle to new people getting into the game. The solution is easy. Fix the Core Rulebook. Don't come out with a "patch" in the form of a strategy guide.

I'm not making excuses for the Core Rulebook I'm just described why they don't just make a new Core Rulebook and why they probably won't in the future. The gist of the post was "Well they're not going to change the Core rulebook so the Strategy Guide is the patch that they're doing.". Things like the Core Rulebook having unfindable rules, information on opposite sides of the book, class overhauls, and clearer wordings are never going to be fixed beyond a patch or FAQ unless Paizo releases Pathfinder 1.5 so we got the Strategy Guide instead.

Now if this book turns out to be more like a re-Core Rulebook I'm buying three more because the Core Rulebook IS a mess and I can hand them to my players to reference more easily. Its not as...

I certainly agree with your last comment. It is not ideal, but certainly better than nothing. I will take it in the hopes that Paizo will fix the CRB in the future.

Jeez. I agree with you englishteacherdrew, but do you have to call those who don't dishonest? Sometimes people disagree.

If you want to lobby for a revised CRB, this product page is not the place. The horse has clearly bolted on this one.

Also, I disagree. This is precisely the place to make the case for a new CRB. The devs actively read these posts (again, much to their credit) and keep an active relationship going with their community. Since the argument has not been made elsewhere (at least not to my knowledge) then the Strategy Guide makes a particularly good forum with which to implore Paizo.

Jeez. I agree with you englishteacherdrew, but do you have to call those who don't dishonest? Sometimes people disagree.

If you want to lobby for a revised CRB, this product page is not the place. The horse has clearly bolted on this one.

My apologies, but can you please show me where I called someone "dishonest". Question the logic of others' reasonings and the quality of their arguments, perhaps, but I have re-read my posts just to be sure and I do not see where I called someone dishonest. Clarification would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Well, Hamlet is a work of fiction - the complexity is part of the story line, and you can't really have one without the other.

The core rule book is really more of an instruction manual for how to play a game. Generally speaking you want an instruction manual to be as user-friendly and uncomplicated as possible without omitting relevant information. If the rookie user has to wade through pages and pages or constantly flip back and forth between chapters to find what he wants, he's much more likely to grow frustrated or give up. Working a year in customer support taught me that one right quick.

This book is highly relevant to my interests as I've been introducing a player completely new to RPGs to Pathfinder in the last two days and truth be told, I didn't give him the Core Rule Book. I knew it would be overwhelming and discouraging.

Instead I gave him links to the PFSRD website's instructions for how to make a character, as well as two different RPG blogs that both take the player through the process step by step, and some time to read over whatever caught his attention. The next day we went through the steps together, using PFSRD's organisation to make the process easier. It's really nice to have all the class names or archetypes on one page, for example. We used the character background generator from UCamp to give him traits and some ideas on what his backstory is, and mostly glossed over feats and spells - along with spells, the sheer range of feats are really overwhelming.

When we finished the character (he made a dawnflower dervish bard of all things) I brought in another (more experienced) player and the three of us played through black fang's cavern. I really like the beginner box adventure. It starts off nice and easy with basic dice rolls and simple combats, then gradually introduces more complicated mechanics like skill checks, combat maneuvers, traps, and so on.

We have our first session on Thursday and I'm really excited to see how it'll go. :)

This is entirely my point exactly! We shouldn't have to "hide" the Core Rulebook from people who are interested in jumping into the game. Nor should Paizo want us to. The Core Rulebook should be an invitation to play and to fall in love with the game, not an obstacle to it.

Your scaffolding of the game for your friend, however, sounds like a good idea. I think I will try something like this in the future. That is, unless Paizo ever updates and cleans-up the Core Rulebook to make it more user-friendly.

englishteacherdrew wrote:

If the Core Rulebook "...presents a number of barriers to entry into the game..." then I would say that there is a pretty significant design flaw.

That's not a design flaw. Just like Hamlet has some pretty significant barriers to entry, it's a feature, not a bug.

Paizo dev: "This book is intended to solve those problems, and I believe that it will bring many more players to the table."

They key word there is "problems". Enough said. The Core Rulebook is problematic. My hats off to Paizo for acknowledging this (many companies would not.)

You have a fallacious argument when you continue to compare the Core Rulebook to Hamlet as each was clearly written for a different purpose. And - if you are correct - and the multi-million dollar company Paizo wants for there to be "significant barriers to entry" (Paizo's own words, not mine, mind you!) as a (as you put it) "feature" to their Core Rulebook then I don't know whether to laugh hysterically or feel sorry for them as a company. My gods! Can you imagine?! A company that make a product and then intentionally goes out of their way to make that product as convoluted and confusing to new customers as possible and then has the audacity to suggest that it is a "feature"?!

I bow to you and your intellect of reason. You, of course, must be correct.

The big point is that the strategy guide is referencing the Core Rulebook not trying to replicate it or the information in it. Even structured differently the Core Rulebook would still have the same problems simply because it has a lot of information but nothing on actual practical tips. If those were put into the core rulebook you'd wind up with a 'Player's Handbook' and 'Dungeonmaster's Guide' that are as big as the current Core Rulebook.

Now in a lot of respects that would probably be desirable. The Core Rulebook is huge and thus falls apart at the drop of a hat, and it might help with the learning curve problem. But its probably not going to happen because of the nature of how other books refer to the book by page number. Pretty much no eratta or changes are going to happen that increases page count or puts information on different page numbers. You can say that this is a bad way to go but the truth of the matter is that Pathfinder as a whole can have problems like that which can even originate from D&D 3.5 because its entire existence is somewhat dependent on 'change=bad'. But the game grows and evolves anyways so what they are doing is putting in patches (eratta), adding optional ways to play (archetypes and Pathfinder Unchained), or clarifying what already exists (Strategy Guide).

I wish fans would stop making excuses for the Core Rulebook. Regardless of how big the book may be, there is no reason for it to be convoluted and hard to figure out. Nothing in the book is clear, from how to play to how to level up. As I have said before, don't get me wrong, I love my core rulebook, but the #1 complaint against Pathfinder that I have heard from both experienced players and people who would like to enter into the game alike is that the rulebook is just too hard to follow. There is no reason for that. A simple adjustment in layout and design would fix all of that. Then if Paizo wanted to come out with a strategy guide they could. But "strategy guide" is not the primary purpose of this publication, it is the secondary. Paizo knows this. They have been very honest (to their credit), that this is the primary purpose for the new Strategy Guide.

The bottom line is - whether die hard fans want to be honest and admit it or not - that the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is a mess. It is a mess for experienced players and it is a mess for players new to the game and it is an obstacle to new people getting into the game. The solution is easy. Fix the Core Rulebook. Don't come out with a "patch" in the form of a strategy guide.

englishteacherdrew wrote:

But if we are recognizing that there is a design flaw in the layout and flow of the book that is confusing enough to frustrate experienced players and keep new players from accessing the game with relative ease, then why not just fix the book?

Asked and answered many times in the thread. We are *not* recognizing that there is any design flaw in the layout and flow of the Core Rulebook.

The existence and usefulness of a Cliff's Notes Hamlet doesn't mean Hamlet should be rewritten to be simpler and easier to read. There's nothing wrong with the original product. The complexity is a feature, not a bug.

Also, you are incorrect. It HAS been recognized that there is a design flaw and layout and flow of the book.

This is a quote from one of the devs on page 1 of this thread:

"The main reason for this product is that I believe the Core Rulebook presents a number of barriers to entry into the game for many people, among them...

It's a big, heavy book filled with a bazillion words, tables, and lists that appear daunting to newcomers.
Really important rules, like how you level up your character, are split into multiple places, and much of it is easy to miss.
It tells you how to make a character, but it doesn't help you figure out which of the many choices you can make are the ones you want to make.
Options for *your* character class, like feats and spells, have to be extracted from dense chapters that also cover options that your character can't actually use.
This book is intended to solve those problems, and I believe that it will bring many more players to the table."

If the Core Rulebook "...presents a number of barriers to entry into the game..." then I would say that there is a pretty significant design flaw. If you are a company trying to sell a product (particularly a complex product), then the last thing you want that product to do is be so convoluted that new, introductory, customers to it can't understand it without guidance from someone else.

englishteacherdrew wrote:

But if we are recognizing that there is a design flaw in the layout and flow of the book that is confusing enough to frustrate experienced players and keep new players from accessing the game with relative ease, then why not just fix the book?

Asked and answered many times in the thread. We are *not* recognizing that there is any design flaw in the layout and flow of the Core Rulebook.

The existence and usefulness of a Cliff's Notes Hamlet doesn't mean Hamlet should be rewritten to be simpler and easier to read. There's nothing wrong with the original product. The complexity is a feature, not a bug.

I can't believe you just compared Hamlet to the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. (Which is what I was referring to above. My apologies for calling it the "Players Handbook".)

Hamlet is a play with a plot that is meant to tell a story. It is fiction. And classical fiction at that. The Core Rulebook is a manual, plain and simple. It is an informational text about how to play a complex RPG and, as such, it should be easy to access for beginners and experienced players alike. That doesn't mean you have to dumb down the complexity of the game or of the content within the book. But, if the book does not flow, is not laid out well, is not functional, then it has failed in its design. I am assuming here that Paizo wants people to play their game and wants to bring new players into the fold as well, so that these new players can experience all that is amazing and wonderful about Pathfinder. As such, it behooves Paizo to make their book a bit more accessible to people in general. Even experienced players have trouble finding the information they need in that book. And you can forget a relatively new player being able to build or level up their own character with relative ease. The devs here have even said it. They want this new book to clear up some confusions and difficulties with the Core Rulebook. My point is, simply, why do we need a whole other book? Just fix what is wrong (layout and design wise), with the old one. I said it before and I will say it again, I don't want to have to show up to the table with two books to do the job that one should have done to begin with. I should be able to show up to the table with just one book that does what it is supposed to do.

I have been playing Pathfinder for almost 1 year now and, although I love the game, I still can't level my character competently. So, although I appreciate this book and am looking forward to it, I am a bit perplexed. The book seems a bit like putting lipstick on a pig (where the pig is the players handbook). Don't get me wrong. I love my players handbook warts and all. But if we are recognizing that there is a design flaw in the layout and flow of the book that is confusing enough to frustrate experienced players and keep new players from accessing the game with relative ease, then why not just fix the book? Redesign and reprint? I would rather have to buy a new players handbook that is more functional and easier to read then have to buy a completely separate book that does what the first book should have and then have to lug around two books!

I am confused by the comment "...presented at the exact same scale". Can you please clarify? Will these maps print up at the exact same scale as seen in the book (miniature)? Or can they be print at the 1x1 inch squares for actual use at the game table? If the later, I will purchase. Thank you.