I really do not want to start over. I'm still enjoying making up characters and playing as much as ever and new books only add to the enjoyment such as the Ultimate Campaign. Do I tweak a few things? Sure, but I really don't want to invest in a restart.
I don't recommend this fix. Doing that gives the rogue an edge that can be exploited by taking a one level dip from other classes. You always need to consider this. Granted, the rogue needs some help but this idea may be too far out there to be practical from all perspectives.
I've been following the thread for a time and once I got past the idea that you were not after homebrew fixes, I liked the challenge. For one thing, I think you need to look at just the core book to determine if rogues can work. Secondly, you need to see if rogues can work at every level and for most races. My opinion is that the rogue can work fine but needs a lot of effort on the part of the player to pull it off well. The player has to really think like a rogue by pulling on every advantage and really thinking ahead. Also, the rogue needs to pick a specialty or two and work with it. The challenge is then to show rogues of various levels and race combinations that work in some fashion and would be fun to play using the core book only. If you can't do that, the rogue needs some fixing. This build is not the best but I'll give it a try. Halfling rogue lvl 1 Weapons: longspear, dagger, light crossbow, tanglefoot bag
Skills: acrobatics, Climb, Diplomacy, disable device, Escape artist, perception, Sleight of hand, stealth, use magic device Str 10
Tactics (without this, the rogue suffers): Avoid detection at all costs, Use longspear in melee if possible and fight defensively if allies are unavailable and run at first opportunity. Use ranged attacks first by always carrying a dagger in hand or light crossbow if trouble is expected. Climb to a safe position and snipe if possible. Rough, I know but this is how the rogue has to be approached. If thrown into an arena, they do not do well and that's why they should never let that happen. This is my contribution.
Here's something I tried. Look to the ninja for some inspiration. First, the rogue gets a pool of points at 2nd level I've been calling a "wits" pool. The pool is equal to half rogue level plus intelligence modifier and allows the rogue to do the following as a swift action. 1. gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC or reflex saves for one round
Next, I really revised all the rogue talents. They need a lot of help but have potential. Some do not need changing but almost all need a revision of some kind. They should really give rogues an advantage they could not have just by gaining feats. I made the rogue talent "finesse rogue" not only grant the feat but the rogue deals damage with finessable weapons based on dex as well. That's what I tried.
I have been noting a lot of talk about the rogue needing something but there is a lot of difficulty in deciding what to do without wrecking everything else. I have tried to come up with a solution that changes nothing and adds just the right amount of extra flavor, power and versatility to this class. Feedback is much appreciated. I have included a googledocs link and the bulk of the file itself. At the end are the rogues from the NPC codex with their chosen focus and the results of that conversion. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZqnxjDDxkrIU1HzwsZsOxRS75xnu--Hy59M9-vH PmNk/edit?usp=sharing Additions to the Pathfinder rogue class. Sure Strike (Ex): At 2nd level all rogues gain the ability to focus their attacks for greater effect. As a swift action, the rogue can add +1d6 damage to any attack. The extra damage is not limited by range and it is not precision damage so creatures immune to critical hits are affected normally. The rogue can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 plus his intelligence modifier. By spending a feat or a rogue talent, the rogue can increase the number of daily uses by an additional 3. At 8th level, the rogue can spend two uses of sure strike as a swift action to deal +2d6 damage and this increases again at 15th to 3 uses for +3d6 damage. Sure Strike damage stacks with sneak attack extra damage. Roguish Knack
Brilliant Rogue -For brilliant rogues, their wits are as sharp or sharper than their blades.
Brutish Rogue - Subtlety is lost on these rogues who hit harder and delight in the pain of their enemies.
Charming Rogue - Charming and lucky, these rogues use their good looks and golden tongues to defeat foes.
Confounding Rogue - These rogues attack in strange manners to keep their opponents off balance.
Dastardly Rogue - These scoundrels use dirty tricks and take advantage even more than regular rogues.
Deceptive Rogue - The deceptive rogue is mysterious to the extreme and a master spy
Dread Rogue - Dread rogues give other rogues a bad name for inflicting the worst afflictions on their enemies.
Elusive Rogue - Defense is paramount for the elusive rogue who frustrates his enemies by avoiding all attacks.
Fast Rogue - A fast rogue is a blur on the battlefield and uses speed and quickness to overcome enemies.
Finesse Rogue - These rogues have learned to use agility and even small size to their advantage.
Sniper Rogue - Masters of ranged combat and unseen attacks. Snipers take down foes from a distance.
Thieving Rogue - Even in combat, the thieving rogue cannot resist separating foes from their possessions.
NPC Codex Rogues
There is a lot of discussion about how the rogue is seen as rather lackluster. I think there are several reasons. I'm going to list a few then go into my suggestions to help the rogue. 1. The rogue used to be the main skill-based character. This is not so much the case now that the bard and many other classes have a lot of skill points and magic to make up the gap. 2. The rogue used to be seen as a heavy damage dealer. This has only ever bee partially true and with pathfinder's minor changes, it has become even less so. 3. The rogue is a challenging class to build and play. The rogue has some MAD problems and additionally, many feel that giving the rogue a huge dexterity will automatically make him great but this is far from the truth. To get the most out of your rogue, you need to really exploit all your options. With the above listed, I ask "if the rogue is no longer all about skills or all about damage or if traps just don't come up often in your game, then what can it be?" I have an idea. Y'know how the bard kind of helps the whole team by providing bonuses and healing and other boosts? What if we made the rogue to be an inverse of that? The rogue's job could be to hinder the opposition. Not just through damage, though that would be a way to do it, but just be being there some time. Think about it. The rogue could be there to help by making the opponents less effective instead of making his allies more effective. The end result is the same but the approach is different. Let's try by applying some minimal changes to the rogue by expanding two of its abilities. Trapfinding is now an aspect of an ability called Rogue Training and trap sense is an aspect of an ability called Rogue Senses Rogue Training: Rogues strive to learn a great deal about how to perceive and exploit weaknesses. This training manifests in two ways.
Rogue Senses: Life for a rogue is always full of danger and rogues make an effort to keep on their toes, get in the first hit and save their hides whenever possible.
The above two additions are small changes but could significantly alter the way the rogue is perceived. No longer being all about sneak attack or traps but being about making the monster's day so unbearable and being the nimble, hard to hit skirmisher they should be. I can see a lot of feats or items that further explore the rogue's abilities to basically find a way to make every obstacle less effective which is definitely a person you want in your party.
I do think the rogue needs something. Something without changing it too much though. I like the idea of the combat style though I think the last sentence of murderous strike is unnecessary. Just being able to spend a standard action to do a sneak attack is pretty cool. You might save that ability until the rogue would be high enough level to have multiple attacks or that's all the rogue would ever do. So 8th level would be the ideal time to gain that ability.
I wanted to see what everyone thought about this. I have a player in my group with a Fighter that rarely if ever does any damage but he is often the most helpful member and frequently earns the unofficial MVP award from me. Here's the deal. He is a Dexterity focused, human fighter that uses whips in each hand (he takes all the penalties). He has feats like weapon finesse, Improved trip, improved disarm as well as two weapon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting once he got to 6th level. The average combat encounter goes something like this. 1. Monster approaches 2. Whip fighter moves to just within range of his whips and will either trip, disarm or blind the monster using the dirty trick maneuver from APG. If he only had to make a five foot step then he will do several of the above. He may even disarm the monster and then use steal (also from the APG book). 3. The rogue or barbarian hold their action to right after the whip fighter has gone, move in and annihilate the poor beast. They also hover around and wait for it to try and stand up or grab their weapon off the floor. 4. Rinse and repeat for subsequent rounds. Now, some monsters have it harder or easier than others. Armed humanoids of medium size have it the worst as they are subject to everything he can dish out. Unarmed monster of large size or with a lot of legs are resistant or immune to his stuff and some beasts are his nightmare such as anything bigger than large or an ooze though admittedly and ooze messes up any fighter and should be left to arcane casters. Am I complaining? No. He works with the group and makes their job easier so he contributes without outshining anyone and is a big team player. He has to be as he rarely inflicts any damage. He has a pair of sickles for backup but I've rarely seen him use them. I'm just wondering if anyone else has ever seen a martial controller that does no damage work or anything close to that and if you have any comments on his choice of character design. |
