Would allowing Rogues to target "touch AC" help increase their power?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Silver Crusade

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I was thinking about instead of rogues having full BAB, would it be better if the class could target touch AC whenever they gain Sneak Attack?

I mean the whole concept behind a rogue's Sneak Attack was they were able to slip that dagger between the plates in an opponent's armour, or find those other soft spots that armour just don't cover.


It would be a very significant improvement to their raw combat capabilities, except against Monks and Other Rogues, which is kind of appropriate now that I think about it.

(Still needs Rogue Talents that are actually good and for skills to scale appropriately of course.)


shallowsoul wrote:

I was thinking about instead of rogues having full BAB, would it be better if the class could target touch AC whenever they gain Sneak Attack?

I mean the whole concept behind a rogue's Sneak Attack was they were able to slip that dagger between the plates in an opponent's armour, or find those other soft spots that armour just don't cover.

Wait, are you saying that you think it's a good idea to let Rogues effectively make all of their sneak attacks against an AC of ~10(+Deflection/-negative Dex)?


There's no harm in giving it a shot in play (with PC rogues, this isn't the kind of rules-adjustment you would want to make on NPCs before vetting it in the hands of the PC's)

It's a heavy power boost, but mages have been using Touch Attacks for their special moves since 3.0 came out (possibly before, I'm unfamiliar with TSR editions) and we let that slide.

Do bear in mind the difficulty in acquiring Sneak Attacks (and surviving the Reciprocation if you're using Flanking as your method of getting them) in your analysis.


I don't thinks so. Rogues can actually do decent damage. The problem is that they are supposed to be a "fixer" class similar to the bard and inquisitor, but those classes get 6 skills plus magic so they can be useful in almost any situation. The rogue needs better talents and more "fix it" aka utility abilities. Well maybe he could use a little boost in combat, but I would make it similar to the guide ranger's ability to boost his attack and damage so many times per day. In this case it would more the attack modifier than the damage though.


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shallowsoul wrote:

I was thinking about instead of rogues having full BAB, would it be better if the class could target touch AC whenever they gain Sneak Attack?

I mean the whole concept behind a rogue's Sneak Attack was they were able to slip that dagger between the plates in an opponent's armour, or find those other soft spots that armour just don't cover.

IMHO. Rogues DPR is fine, in my experience people that enjoy the most the class do not play it to be a meat grinder.

The awful saves, being supased in the use of skills, the lack of (GOOD) options beyond I try to sneak attack, the lack of more class features, and the lack of goo rogue talents is what hurt the class.

Silver Crusade

If you did give rogues the ability to hit touch AC then I believe that would give them more room to invest in other areas.

Hell the Gunslinger is a full BAB PC that can target touch AC from ranged.


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I don't recommend this fix. Doing that gives the rogue an edge that can be exploited by taking a one level dip from other classes. You always need to consider this.

Granted, the rogue needs some help but this idea may be too far out there to be practical from all perspectives.


It makes the Rogue's role in combat DPR. "Should I play a Rogue or a Barbarian" isn't a question someone should ever feel the need to ask.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
It makes the Rogue's role in combat DPR. "Should I play a Rogue or a Barbarian" isn't a question someone should ever feel the need to ask.

I don't see any problem with this whatsoever.

That being said, the fact that the proposed 'fix' both likely somewhat overshoots its purpose, helps the Rogue when he needs the least help overall (while Sneak Attacking), and is extremely dip-friendly all point to it being a bad call.

In my experience just giving them real Full BAB is a sufficient leg up in the combat department, best supplemented by quality Rogue Talents and Scaling Skills.

Silver Crusade

Then make it an Advanced Rogue Talent.

Silver Crusade

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You could always make it a rogue class feature. At 8th level, a rogue uses touch AC when granted Sneak Attack.


Hum. I like this idea.
but it should likely come into play a few levels in.

Either say 3/4 or 5. 3 is pretty good but thats also when you get 2d6; which is what you stop at for some PRCs. I don't know if that would be good or bad.

Considering some of the other issues and such described in various threads, and what other classes can do this doesn't seem terribly crazy and it's in flavor.

I honestly don't see much issues with this if it's not eazy dipping. It still certainly won't over go any of hte other martial classes really. Outside I suppose of building a str rogue (personally I rarely see them) but the feat difference from a fighter is likely going to make up the difference in damage amounts.

Some of the archetypes should be looked at with concerns to it. Ninja i'm not touching since the alternate class stuff I'm not too clear on the details.
Some that would be good to look at would be something like scout archetype. but offhand I don't see a problem with it really.

It'd have to bea rogue thing not a sneak attack in general thing. Most classes either have the BAB innately or some sort of way to increase their ability to hit, so I dont' think it'd be terribly imbalanced. It would also support using rogue instead of say ninja who gets ki, or alchemist who gets just a lot of buff ability.

there would be a ton of TWF rogues for sure though.

Tons of play testing woudl be good with different people. Considering I see little issues, due to the kind of games Im in (except one, all being serious high powered). but people previous mentioned it being overpowered, so you sure need many viewpoints from play. I've never played PFS so no clue in that one

edit: some ninja by other posters.
I don't think that it would saddle up with a BARB any of my coplayers make (though again I'm the weakest player in our group; but who knows for others). he might be able to unload decent sneak attack damage with TWF the hell out of one guy but that'd be it. my friends Barbarians can blast people and do a lot ofo ther combat stuff. avg rogue I've seen (dex heavy, not the most durable, light armour) is still pretty glass cannon, and if they want to blast with TWF, thats a full round action of not moving, and easly hit back.
I don't have enough experience with a rogue built like a barbarian though.

Silver Crusade

I had even thought about giving rogues Weapon Finesse for free at 1st level and then at 5th level giving them the ability to use any weapon they are proficient in as if it had the "Agility" property.

Liberty's Edge

It probably goes too far in the direction of making them too powerful.

I give them a full Ninja-sized Ki Pool...maybe having it cost Ki for attacking vs. touch AC for a few rounds or something (in combination with doing that) would result in a more balanced Rogue.

They can already do something similar with Major Magic and Chill Touch after all...but only a limited number of times per day. Some such limit seems reasonable.


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It has potential. Would need to be tested. It fixes the Rogue's main combat issue, namely that they have trouble hitting, and even when they do their damage is only on par with another damage dealer at best.

It would leave him with more resources to pump into shoring up his atrocious saves and being more well rounded, which is good.

On the other hand, it may go TOO far. I preferred the solution of allowing them to Feint as a Swift. Flatfooted is generally a solid debuff and isn't as crippling as attacking touch AC. Would be perfect if he could Feint and make the target be denied Dex to the whole party, giving him party synergy and a slight boost to-hit as opposed to a MASSIVE boost to hit for self only.

I did build up a Gunslinger/Rogue one time and it didn't seem too unbalanced though, if you need a metric I could dig it up and somebody could try to extrapolate it to a pure Rogue build.


shallowsoul wrote:
I had even thought about giving rogues Weapon Finesse for free at 1st level and then at 5th level giving them the ability to use any weapon they are proficient in as if it had the "Agility" property.

I'm not sure if that's the right idea, it would have a tendency to lock a rogue into a specific build. For someone who doesn't want to go with a Dex based rogue it's a wasted feature. Maybe keep Finesse Rogue a talent and then make Improved Finesse Rogue be another talent which requires Finesse and gives the Agile property. Like Minor and Major Magic talents work.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I give them a full Ninja-sized Ki Pool...maybe having it cost Ki for attacking vs. touch AC for a few rounds or something (in combination with doing that) would result in a more balanced Rogue.

Yuck, pool points suck. Though I may be the only person in existence who thinks so. No offense meant, I just think point pools are terrible.

Silver Crusade

Simon Legrande wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
I had even thought about giving rogues Weapon Finesse for free at 1st level and then at 5th level giving them the ability to use any weapon they are proficient in as if it had the "Agility" property.
I'm not sure if that's the right idea, it would have a tendency to lock a rogue into a specific build. For someone who doesn't want to go with a Dex based rogue it's a wasted feature. Maybe keep Finesse Rogue a talent and then make Improved Finesse Rogue be another talent which requires Finesse and gives the Agile property. Like Minor and Major Magic talents work.

That's a very good idea Simon!


I am actually doing a similar thing for my next campaign. I guess I should have suggested it. I have it as a feat though IIRC.


Well, I think it would be bad because AC was used to stop things like rogue. So if you want to make rogue better, the best way to go about it is to allow rogue to sneak without being detect by magic as long as they hold no magic items. As well as they will be able to disarm magical device unnoticed and full sneak attack damage against enemies with light or no armor exception to natural armor (example, +10d6 sneak attack = +60 damage.) That way rogue is strong against caster who is not prepared while other classes still well against them. That's how rogue supposed to be, not stabbing someone with heavy armor like it's nothing.


Rogues already have a number of abilities that allow them to accomplish this at least in a limited capacity. For example - minor/major magic talents (e.g. chill touch spell-like ability), firearm proficiency talent, etc. This does NOT begin to address the scaling issues with sneak attack as compared to martial damage, the absurd situationalism of rogue talents, the inability of rogue abilities to keep up with magic, and/or the lack of reasonable niche protection.


I think that allowing the constant targeting of touch AC is going too far.

I gave the rogue a good fort save in my home game. I also created feats which give spell-like abilities that activate off a certain level of skill investment (invisibility for stealth, spider climb for climb, etc.) - rogues can select these feats using their rogue talents.


I created this feat that my group has been experimenting with over the past several sessions. In addition to giving the rogue a talent that acts as the agile weapon property, this feat would get the damage output to a respectable level.

New Feat wrote:

Precision Attack (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for damage

Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage also negates the 50% penalty to damage if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

I also made changes to the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain. I worked in a gradual decrease to the attack penalty for each feat down the chain. So the Main Hand/Off Hand penalties become:

Two-Weapon: -4/-4 or -2/-2
Improved Two-Weapon: -3/-3 or -1/-1
Greater Two-Weapon: -2/-2 or -0/-0

So by the time you've reached Greater you no longer are taking an attack penalty when using a light off hand weapon.

Silver Crusade

MechE_ wrote:

I think that allowing the constant targeting of touch AC is going too far.

I gave the rogue a good fort save in my home game. I also created feats which give spell-like abilities that activate off a certain level of skill investment (invisibility for stealth, spider climb for climb, etc.) - rogues can select these feats using their rogue talents.

Targeting touch AC wouldn't be constant, only when Sneak Attack is applied.


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Why go to such extremes as targeting touch AC? Just give them full BAB and be done with it. I would also like to see rogues gain access to the critical feat line and potentially earlier than the fighter gets them. A class whose combat is based on precision should gain access to feats that are also based on precision including critical mastery.

I feel like there's not enough onus given to weapon and armor proficiency in the game. Being able to equip ANY martial and simple weapon is a great benefit for fighters that gets underplayed. It creates endless options on character concepts. Giving a rogue full BAB with their limited weapon proficiency isn't really game altering other than making them a little better at being a martial character. It brings them up a notch without making them better than the classes designed to be the big hitting DPR.


Technically, rogues already can hit touch AC. Just take Major Magic and pick chill touch or pick an eldritch heritage that gives you a touch attack (Aquatic and Shadow are two I can think of off the top of my head that grant melee touch bloodline powers, but there's probably more).

That being said, I think expanding the rogues options, rather than making them sneak attack better, is the way to go. The slayer class from the ACG will be designed with DPR focused play in mind. What really tends to define rogues in media is not their ability to kill things; it's having a large number of tricks. While many movies and books featuring skillful thieves often involve dispatching guards (either by killing them or knocking them out), the focus is almost always on how skilled and crafty they are rather than combat prowess. Boosting rogue talents I think would be both a much easier fix to implement as well as more true to the feel of the class.

Or... you could choose to play an arcane trickster or a rogue/gunslinger, and touch AC sneak attacks are your bread and butter!

Liberty's Edge

I would not allow touch AC. I would allow Rogues to target flat footed AC. It just seems to make more sense. A rogue sneaking up from behind and firing a ranged weapon. Or stabbing with a melee weapon out of nowhere. Or make it a Rogue Talent. While giving the victim a free perception check to notice the rogue trying to attack him.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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1) Stay away from Touch Attacks. Touch Attacks rapidly break the game with the ability to abuse DPR. The Gunslinger is frequently banned for exactly this reason. The downsides of buying ammo do not equal the benefits of killing a BBEG in one round with a barrage of unavoidable attacks.

2) Give the Rogue full BAB. Go ahead. Look at his comparisons.
The monk gets full BAB whenever he flurries.
The cleric gets 'full BAB' with a spell, and has other spells to provide even more bonuses to hit.
The inquisitor gets 'full BAB' with Judgments or Bane weapon whenever he wants it.
The bard gets 'full BAB' by singing a song to himself, or tossing out heroism, haste, etc.

The Rogue is basically the only 3/4 class expected to get into melee that does NOT get 'full BAB' or something similar. He gets 'conditional damage'.

Go ahead and give it to him. It won't break the game. I mean, seriously, before 12th level, it's the equal of +1 or +2 to hit!

3) Damage non-reliant on sneak attack. STAY AWAY FROM STAT-BASED DAMAGE. That is how you break and abuse the game. Dex to damage is decried as necessary for the rogue BECAUSE he does such crappy damage. IF you give them decent damage, you don't NEED dex to damage.

I believe Kirth first posited giving a Rogue fixed precision damage equal to his sneak attack dice. Thus, a 6th level Rogue does +3 damage on every attack, but if he qualifies for a Sneak attack, that +3 becomes +3d6.

At 20th level that's +10 damage to every attack. That's also the equivalent of having a Dex score 20 points higher then your strength score.

Do NOT give away stat buffs to damage. That creates a mere excuse to level dip, as stats are not reliant on class. Furthermore, Dex to damage shoots down the intelligent rogue, the charismatic rogue, the wise rogue, etc.

Make the damage an extension of playing the class, that gets better as you play the class...just like the monk, rogue and inquisitor.
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With full BAB a rogue will still be inferior to a true melee, who get TH bonuses on top of full BAB.

But he'll be better then those classes that rely on magic to hit, instead of skill. And the rogue is all about skill.

Giving him precision damage that elevates with level rewards him for staying a rogue and prevents munchkinny level dipping for stat based damage.

Example: A Rogue with Str 12 and Dex 16 at level 1. With +1 dmg from Cunning/Sneak attack, he's doing almost the exact same damage as if he were using dex to damage. At level 3, it's equal...a reward for playing the rogue class.

At level 10, with Str 14 and Dex 22, he's doing MORE damage then he would if he were using dex to damage, +7 vs +6.

At level 20, with Str 23 and Dex 34, he's doing +16 vs +12...again, the reward for playing a rogue.

Let him elect to take Weapon Finesse. If he doesn't want to be a dex-based rogue, don't make him play one. But don't double dip on a stat boost. It's just bad class design.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

I don't think they will ever make Rogues a full BAB class. The one thing that all rogues have always gotten was Sneak Attack and that is why I focused on the touch AC idea around Sneak Attack. Every rogue 8 have ever seem has always had some kind of dex with a positive modifier. Even my "fake wizard" concept has a + 2 mod from Dex. Basing touch AC around Sneak Attack would still make an Int based build viable. In fact, you would be able to focus a bit more on the noncombat stuff because your chance to hit increased. Sneak Attack is what makes the class so iconic and it would make sense to focus around that.

Silver Crusade

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Aelryinth wrote:

1) Stay away from Touch Attacks. Touch Attacks rapidly break the game with the ability to abuse DPR. The Gunslinger is frequently banned for exactly this reason. The downsides of buying ammo do not equal the benefits of killing a BBEG in one round with a barrage of unavoidable attacks.

2) Give the Rogue full BAB. Go ahead. Look at his comparisons.
The monk gets full BAB whenever he flurries.
The cleric gets 'full BAB' with a spell, and has other spells to provide even more bonuses to hit.
The inquisitor gets 'full BAB' with Judgments or Bane weapon whenever he wants it.
The bard gets 'full BAB' by singing a song to himself, or tossing out heroism, haste, etc.

The Rogue is basically the only 3/4 class expected to get into melee that does NOT get 'full BAB' or something similar. He gets 'conditional damage'.

Go ahead and give it to him. It won't break the game. I mean, seriously, before 12th level, it's the equal of +1 or +2 to hit!

3) Damage non-reliant on sneak attack. STAY AWAY FROM STAT-BASED DAMAGE. That is how you break and abuse the game. Dex to damage is decried as necessary for the rogue BECAUSE he does such crappy damage. IF you give them decent damage, you don't NEED dex to damage.

I believe Kirth first posited giving a Rogue fixed precision damage equal to his sneak attack dice. Thus, a 6th level Rogue does +3 damage on every attack, but if he qualifies for a Sneak attack, that +3 becomes +3d6.

At 20th level that's +10 damage to every attack. That's also the equivalent of having a Dex score 20 points higher then your strength score.

Do NOT give away stat buffs to damage. That creates a mere excuse to level dip, as stats are not reliant on class. Furthermore, Dex to damage shoots down the intelligent rogue, the charismatic rogue, the wise rogue, etc.

Make the damage an extension of playing the class, that gets better as you play the class...just like the monk, rogue and inquisitor.
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With full BAB a rogue will still be inferior to a true melee, who get TH...

Touch AC was never the problem with Gunslingers, it was all the other BS. Weapon cords have been nerfed by the way.


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shallowsoul wrote:
Touch AC was never the problem with Gunslingers, it was all the other BS. Weapon cords have been nerfed by the way.

I dont know if it is a "problem" but i think every body that have issues with Gunslingers and feel they are overpowered would name that as one of the major things.


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Cap. Darling wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Touch AC was never the problem with Gunslingers, it was all the other BS. Weapon cords have been nerfed by the way.
I dont know if it is a "problem" but i think every body that have sisuens with Gunslingers and feel they are overpowered would name that as one of the major things.

I tend to think double-barreled firearms are a much more significant problem. Although, yeah, the first two bestiaries were not all balanced or scaled for touch AC. (Which is not to say that the latter two ARE...I'm just less sure of them).


shallowsoul wrote:
I don't think they will ever make Rogues a full BAB class. The one thing that all rogues have always gotten was Sneak Attack and that is why I focused on the touch AC idea around Sneak Attack. Every rogue 8 have ever seem has always had some kind of dex with a positive modifier. Even my "fake wizard" concept has a + 2 mod from Dex. Basing touch AC around Sneak Attack would still make an Int based build viable. In fact, you would be able to focus a bit more on the noncombat stuff because your chance to hit increased. Sneak Attack is what makes the class so iconic and it would make sense to focus around that.

I am sure the monk, rogue, and fighter are never being remade. Changing the sneak attack to a more consistent form of damage and removing the requirement for flanking is also a good idea. Touch based AC to hit is really too far. Even a small bump such as a +2 to hit X times per day that increases over time will give DPR a big increase.

You can also try something similar to a paladin's smite if you are want rogues to be int based. Have them add their int to the attack roll and add the rogue level to the damage, but have it only be allowed X times per day. <----I have not ran any numbers on this. I have ran numbers on the first paragraph.

PS: The psuedo smite ability would replace sneak attack not be added to it.


The entire point and theme of the rogue's combat abilities...from their very roots...is that they deal situational damage. Hitting the enemy when they're down and/or unprepared. Make sneak attack or backstab less situational and you no longer have a rogue as far as I'm concerned.

It could stand to be rescaled and maybe made easier for a lone rogue to accomplish...but still, the major issue with the rogue class is that their OTHER abilities are just way too situational and not balanced with those of other classes. For example - one rogue talent allows the rogue to roll twice on a Bluff check and take the better roll...a couple times per day. Whereas a cleric domain ability allows one to do the same on ANY skill 3+wis times per day at 1st level. Another rogue talent allows the rogue to breathe a whopping 2 rounds longer before making suffocation checks...whereas a ninja talent in the same book DOUBLES the number of rounds the ninja can take before making such checks.


Shadowdweller wrote:
The entire point and theme of the rogue's combat abilities...from their very roots...is that they deal situational damage. Hitting the enemy when they're down and/or unprepared. Make sneak attack or backstab less situational and you no longer have a rogue as far as I'm concerned.

ok.. I would go with the bonuses to attack then SA will provide the damage.

I also thought about adding a talent that would allow you to sneak attack even without a flanker assuming you(general statement) did not want to go with making feint a swift action for a rogue, which would be a talent if you did not want to make it into a rogue ability.

PS: Moving them to medium armor might also be a good idea. With the increased damage they become more likely to be targeted unless you have another idea to boost their AC.


The problem isn't the rogue hitting on a sneak attack... It's that he does almost no damage unless sneak attacking. Rogue needs some kind of method of affecting the battlefield when not sneaking. I would suggest some kind of status effect... which would make something like POISONS a good option, except Pathfinder has nerfed poisons to the point where they are cost/benefit useless. Once again robbing the rogue (ninja) of utility. Because poisons are sooooo overpowered, otherwise... /sarcasm


I think the reason why gun slinger is fine with full bab and touch attack within certain range is because it can be counter easily by tower shield. However, nothing can block a rogue's attack if it does touch attack. To make their enemies flat footed all the time would be crazy because there will be not point to setup sneak attack, therefore no fun playing a rogue when you just hit normally like a fighter. The main problem is that fact the rogue suppose to be able to stay on top of magic when still below martial, which Paizo failed to do so because they inherited that from wizard when pathfinder was created. I believe sneak attack shouldn't be the only mean for rogue to be effective in combat. Setting up traps, tripping, quick fingers, disarm magical device and ignore magical detection should options to rogue as rogue talents.

Example,

Setting up traps, allow rogue to add his rogue level to the skill craft trap. The time of crafting trap reduced by half.

Tripping, the rogue may trip his enemy at ease, he add half his rogue levels rounded down to his trip combat maneuver check.

Quick fingers, rogue may use Sleight of Hand check against enemies' perception check to set off their items such as explosive, firearm splash weapon and magical device. If the check passed, the item will set off after the rogue's next round. If the check failed, the enemies may take an attack of opportunity.

Disarm magical device, rogue may add half his rogue levels rounded down to Disable Device and Sleight of Hand check. In addition, rogue may disarm magical device unnoticed unless he failed his Sleight of Hand check.

Ignore magical detection, when the rogue carries no magical item, he may ignore any magical detection from any spell and spell like ability, included spell that is casted upon the caster. Exception to supernatural and Extraordinary abilities.

Shadow Lodge

Be careful of this. The martial class complained about the most is the Gunslinger. This is because both the iconic idea of a Gunslinger is a TWFing Pistol-Wielder, and because guns target touch AC. The iconic idea of a rogue involves TWF, and they will be targeting touch AC in addition to a large damage boost.

Instead, I'd make an Advanced Rogue Talent that allows you to target Touch AC on the attack after each successful sneak attack. That way you at least have a balancing factor of being able to lose this ability.


The iconic rogue from Pathfinder isn't a TWF.

Shadow Lodge

Khrysaor wrote:
The iconic rogue from Pathfinder isn't a TWF.

I didn't actually mean the PFS Iconic Rogue Pregen, but more what people think of when they think of the rogue. Was the first thing I thought of when I heard the class name, as did many of my friends.


EvilPaladin wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
The iconic rogue from Pathfinder isn't a TWF.
I didn't actually mean the PFS Iconic Rogue Pregen, but more what people think of when they think of the rogue. Was the first thing I thought of when I heard the class name, as did many of my friends.

It's just preference and what you've read. The only combat I've ever associated with rogues is underhanded, misdirection, and backstabbing. Rogues to me are of a romantic style. Silver tongues using cunning and charm to solve their problems. Unfortunately this is just flavor and not all rogues are like is.

I'd also argue the most complained about martial class being the fighter with a ridiculous 3450 post thread on the go right now. Gunslingers really aren't broken as long as the rules are being adhered to.

The biggest problem with rogue is that they're meant to be a class of cunning over brute force, but cunning doesn't equate to anything if players can't think of anything cunning to do. Everyone wants mechanics to answer for this.

There's also issues with inherent abilities like dark vision that break a non casters ability to be effective. Stealth means jack when your enemy has dark vision and pathfinders rules for facing means they are always looking everywhere.


I think this is a wonderful theory. But the level dipping for melee to be able to make their attacks touch is a problem so maybe making it a 3rd level ability or something


The touch AC while sneak attacking wouldn't help much the Rogues issue is one of consistency and getting killed when trying to take advantage of sneak attack more than the damage when they have the ability to sneak attack. I'd opt for either Full BAB or offer them significantly more durability maybe both.

Personally I think the Rogue could do with Full BAB a d10 hit die and a strong will save(strong willed and shifty minded makes more sense to me than hearty constitutions) will he get it? No. But Paizo would never give them the touch attack thing either so we're already talking houserules at this point.

Silver Crusade

Khrysaor wrote:
EvilPaladin wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
The iconic rogue from Pathfinder isn't a TWF.
I didn't actually mean the PFS Iconic Rogue Pregen, but more what people think of when they think of the rogue. Was the first thing I thought of when I heard the class name, as did many of my friends.

It's just preference and what you've read. The only combat I've ever associated with rogues is underhanded, misdirection, and backstabbing. Rogues to me are of a romantic style. Silver tongues using cunning and charm to solve their problems. Unfortunately this is just flavor and not all rogues are like is.

I'd also argue the most complained about martial class being the fighter with a ridiculous 3450 post thread on the go right now. Gunslingers really aren't broken as long as the rules are being adhered to.

The biggest problem with rogue is that they're meant to be a class of cunning over brute force, but cunning doesn't equate to anything if players can't think of anything cunning to do. Everyone wants mechanics to answer for this.

There's also issues with inherent abilities like dark vision that break a non casters ability to be effective. Stealth means jack when your enemy has dark vision and pathfinders rules for facing means they are always looking everywhere.

I think there is a bit of a misconception when it comes to Stealth. Darkvision doesn't break stealth because it's not always about standing in darkness. Stealth is about avoidance anyway possible. You can use Stealth in daylight or you can use it in pitch darkness.

Silver Crusade

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gnomersy wrote:

The touch AC while sneak attacking wouldn't help much the Rogues issue is one of consistency and getting killed when trying to take advantage of sneak attack more than the damage when they have the ability to sneak attack. I'd opt for either Full BAB or offer them significantly more durability maybe both.

Personally I think the Rogue could do with Full BAB a d10 hit die and a strong will save(strong willed and shifty minded makes more sense to me than hearty constitutions) will he get it? No. But Paizo would never give them the touch attack thing either so we're already talking houserules at this point.

Allowing the rogue to target touch AC would actually free them up to focus more on defense.


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shallowsoul wrote:


Allowing the rogue to target touch AC would actually free them up to focus more on defense.

Not really. The reason Rogues don't focus on defense isn't because they need to focus on offense but because they need to focus on just getting sneak attacks this doesn't alleviate that issue which means all it does is make the Rogue more inconsistent between when he's sneak attacking and when he's not.

In general I find inconsistency in my character to be annoying at best and intolerable at worst but not everyone agrees with me.

To cap it all off the ability doesn't really make sense in context either since thick hide and being literally made of steel apparently make it no more difficult for the Rogue to find a good place to stick you but only when he sneaks.


I once made a summation of what I'd considered to be general recommendations based on forum posts and various 'guides. It read something like this:

- All full BAB classes receive pounce beginning at L11+
- Make specific archetypes default for certain classes. Barbarian defaults to Invulnerable Rager, and Monk to Quiggong...
- Vital Strike becomes a scaling feat (You take it once, and it advances, granting additional die as you gain BAB)
- Monk and rogue become full BAB classes
- Monk receives all style feats as bonus feat options
- Ninja talents are rolled into the rogue class (treat them as normal talents and give rogues a ki pool by default--in this way, they become a default option)
- Any class with 2 skill points per level becomes 4 per level, except Wizard
- Fighter receives a good will save
- Barbarian rage cycling becomes default (it still costs 2 rage points per round, instead of 1 as per RAW)
- Fey Foundling default for paladins.
- Remove Combat Expertise as a pre-req, and make it and Power Attack innate abilities.
- Dex to damage is default.
- Rogue begins play with weapon finesse.

I've also seen:

- Bad saves are unfun, so give everyone good saves.
- Minimum d10 for everyone, except barbarian who gets d12.
- Full BAB for everyone except casters. Casters get 3/4.
- Feats every level.
- Craft feats double your WBL.

So to add to this:

- Rogues should attack at touch AC.

It makes the game quite different. Perhaps if you are considering the touch AC, you should consider adding the rest as well.

Note: Don't take the above list as agreement or support. It's merely note-taking on my end of things.


gnomersy wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:


Allowing the rogue to target touch AC would actually free them up to focus more on defense.

Not really. The reason Rogues don't focus on defense isn't because they need to focus on offense but because they need to focus on just getting sneak attacks this doesn't alleviate that issue which means all it does is make the Rogue more inconsistent between when he's sneak attacking and when he's not.

In general I find inconsistency in my character to be annoying at best and intolerable at worst but not everyone agrees with me.

To cap it all off the ability doesn't really make sense in context either since thick hide and being literally made of steel apparently make it no more difficult for the Rogue to find a good place to stick you but only when he sneaks.

In my own experience and reading of these threads, many players and DMs hate loss of control over their PCs.

Absolutely HATE it.

Want to stab it to DEATH.

The rogue sneak attack represents 'loss of control.' Limited per-day abilities do not have this issue.

Therefore, you'll never have a good discussion on SA, because half of it is actually from frustration of not having control over a character.

It doesn't matter if it's effective, or somewhat effective, or highly effective, etc. Not at all. It matters if the player feels in control of their abilities.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Allowing rogues to hit touch ac encourages them to be a dip class for classes that can actually do consistent damage.

==Aelryinth


SiuoL wrote:

I think the reason why gun slinger is fine with full bab and touch attack within certain range is because it can be counter easily by tower shield. However, nothing can block a rogue's attack if it does touch attack. To make their enemies flat footed all the time would be crazy because there will be not point to setup sneak attack, therefore no fun playing a rogue when you just hit normally like a fighter. The main problem is that fact the rogue suppose to be able to stay on top of magic when still below martial, which Paizo failed to do so because they inherited that from wizard when pathfinder was created. I believe sneak attack shouldn't be the only mean for rogue to be effective in combat. Setting up traps, tripping, quick fingers, disarm magical device and ignore magical detection should options to rogue as rogue talents.

Touch attacks ignore the shield bonus, but they dont ignore the cover from a shield so that is not it. Archers don't target touch AC and they would also be blocked by a tower shield.

But yeah I do agree the rogue needs other ways to affect the game.

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