darkerthought7's page

I've asked a question that hit on this point before: as a part of the class, the Patron feature is more akin to a Wizard's choice in school than it is a Cleric's choice in deity. So, while you could worship a deity and have a Patron that fits that deity's portfolio, none of your class features have anything to do with said deity. You don't receive spells from said deity (in fact, you don't "receive" spells at all as an arcane caster), so anything with that specific requirement can't be taken. However, anything that simply requires you to worship that deity is legal, as it would be for any other character that worshipped that deity.

However, it's not unreasonable to have that be a part of a home-brew world. It's just not really "legal" in a RAW sense.

I prefer We Be Goblins. It's fun and the imagery can be made to be fantastic, if you're into a bit of squick.

I have to wonder the ages of the people involved in this interaction. It might simply be an issue of maturity that will dissolve in a few years. However, if these are all adults, I would avoid like the plague! Hang out, if everyone is friends outside of the game. But, the game's never going to be fun if one person screams and rages whenever they're told "no." Go to the local game store, or check out PBP here or elsewhere. Or, try getting takers for a roll20 or Tabletop Simulator game.

"No gaming is better than bad gaming." Additionally, "You can't fix stupid."

Foeclan wrote:

Maybe point them to the actual definition of 'Caster Level'. Also available on page 208 of the CRB.

Yeah, but he'd read that already. The other player in question probably knows the rule book better than I do in most cases. If he didn't get the same answer I did when he read it, I didn't think point it out would help.

The other player used as support for his side that a previous GM had read it the same as him. I told him he was wrong, but he basically said his other GM's opinion was just as valid as mine.

Fortunately, the situation has now been rectified.

Huzzah! Hopefully the player in question will still be able to contribute with a character that won't go as planned. Side note: from the sound of it, they want to play some kind of gish. Have you suggested they take a look at the Magus class? If they want the "wilderness" vibe, still, you could even work with the GM to make a custom archetype that exchanges some Magus class features for Tracking and Favored Terrain. Maybe give up the ability to enchant your weapon for a Favored Enemy, or something along those lines.

Yeah, I did most of that stuff. Unfortunately I think the GM is mislead on this one. I tried to point out one of the threads I found here to him to support "my" side. I can send him a link to this one as well.

I was hoping there was some sort of official statement somewhere that clarified "abilities that increase caster level do not grant additional spells." sort of thing.

You're not going to get an "official statement" because there is no need. The rules are already there, and they aren't ambiguous. "Caster level" is a defined game term, as is "class level" and "character level." The devs only make official clarifications if the rules are ambiguous. In this case, the rules aren't ambiguous. The player is willfully ignorant.

Maybe point them to the actual definition of 'Caster Level'. Also available on page 208 of the CRB.

This. Also, if the DM doesn't know the rules enough to drop the hammer on this, you may be in for more problems...

Caster level =/= Class level. The Spells class features specifies Class Levels, not Caster Levels. Caster Levels are primarily referenced for the effects of spells and for dispelling spells. If you pull out the rules, show where this is true, and they persist: drop the ultimatum. No one likes Min-Maxers who can't even do their homework. Imagine trying to even play after this disagreement. Toxic.

Don't forget: the spells per day problem gets worse for you as you level. The Wizard can use Pearls of Power to regain spell slots. As written, nothing can regenerate Arcanist slots. Sensible DMs will house rule Runestones of Power to work instead. Though you are not technically a Spontaneous Caster, you do have Spell Slots that function similarly. Meanwhile, PoP are functionally useless, as you don't expend prepared spells when cast. The difference in cost is 1000gp (PoP) to 2000gp (RoP), and the ratio gets worse from there.

I was more speaking to a) Your Arcane Reservoir is capped by your level, and B) The little bonuses you get from Wizard are largely forgettable, even as a single-classed Wizard. There are exceptions (Foresight probably being the biggest).

The Pros of Arcanist are: flexible casting, customizable palette of class features. The Cons are: less spells per day, less spells prepared per day, fewer Reservoir points, delayed access to higher level spells (which will also affect entry into the class). The last Con is probably the biggest symbol of danger in this route. A one level delay, followed by another delay when you first take the prestige class will hamstring you if you intend to play during those levels. Falling behind the sorcerer in terms of spell level is not a good thing, especially when you don't have at least a 3/4 BAB chassis to back you up. Tack on a lack of spell casting endurance, and you'd honestly be better off just BEING a sorcerer.

If you could get the DM to let you use the Variant BAB calculations from Unchained, you'll hurt less. Nonetheless, you'll still run into BAB problems on a 1/2 BAB base class. You'll be fine against larger creatures (though not all) and heavily armored opponents, but God(s) forbid you encounter something like a Quickling or a high-level monoRogue. You simply can't afford to miss with your highly limited number of spells as an Arcanist.

Side Note: The Charisma based exploits are all terrible. The damage just doesn't scale.

Wizard is, by far, better. It's earlier access, which is always better. When you go into AT, you're gonna lose class features, and the ones you have won't scale. Wizard loses less, in this case. There's also a spell, Sense Vitals, you'll want to look into.

For the record, in this system the DCs would be as follows:
1st - DC 11
2nd - DC 13
3rd - DC 14
4th - DC 16
5th - DC 17
6th - DC 19
7th - DC 20
8th - DC 22
9th - DC 23

These are the absolute minimums for each spell level. To make this resemble something that can actually hit monster saves, Spell Focus and G. Spell focus would need to grant +2 and +4 respectively. Heighten is kinda off the table, since higher spell levels grant better base EFFECTS, anyway. Yeah, it ups the DC, but it's still no higher than it would be in the table above for a weaker kind of effect. Even with these bug fixes, it's still probably better to just play a martial that can activate magic items.

The limited magic system from PF Unchained is an *excellent* fix for the martial-caster disparity. The disparity doesn't go away, but it does get taken down a notch.

A wizard in this system should have even more reason to realize that a wizard's forte is *not* in dealing damage, but in doing more indirect yet game-chainging things with his spells. He should inflict conditions. Enervate them. Fatigue them. Daze them. Reduce them to giggling madhouse inmates. Confuse them. Cover them with a horde of grasping monkeys. Make them cough on a cloudkill. Blind them. And so on.

It's an invitation to be creative with indirect magical effects. Illusions are great spells. Create pit is a great spell. Sure, it won't be as deep, but it's still going to be a bad hair day for the klutz who falls in.

And, oh yeah, heighten spell! And esoteric spell components.

My issue with this argument is: the wizard's forte never was doing damage in the first place. It always was inflicting conditions and controlling the battlefield. HP damage is best done by people who can do it all day. Moreover, by limiting DCs and CLs in this way, it actually makes it HARDER to be more "wizard-ly." You can't land any of those abilities without ways to increase DC and they tend to not matter with limited CL. The advice given is a good way to deal with this set of circumstances, to some degree. But with your first level spells being permanently at DC 11 without having to burn feats or higher spell slots to up the DC, you'll find that none of your effects will ever land. Base Will save of CR 1 monsters tends to end up in the -1 area. A normally built wizard will have better-than-even odds of doing something "wizard-ly." This system makes it a coin flip. It isn't fixing the problem, it's taking away the end-game with nothing to compensate. Remember: casting is an investment in this system. You start weak, and end strong. If you take away the "end strong" part, there's not much point in making a character that's doomed on creation.

Back on the topic: again, respec to a class that can thrive in the ruleset provided. Instead of going full wizard, take a single level to activate and create magical items (that would be no worse than your own spells, anyway). Take a few more if you have the need to make other consumables, such as wands or potions, but never beyond this. There's just too much investment necessary to function against the base stats provided for Bestiary foes.

The fairest way to distribute wealth is to have all wealth immediately converted to liquid capital and distributed by simple division. It's not realistic, but if the party can't figure out how to play nice, you can't stop the game in its tracks to deal with this kind of petty BS. It would be better to RP everything, since that allows characters to develop. However, from the sound of it, your party isn't willing to cooperate with each other. There's more afoot here than just wealth distribution.

Although I agree that Potent Magic is well worth it for most Arcanists, I do not agree that it is needed.

I feel that Quick Study is a crutch. I would much rather have a different exploit, choose my spells wisely, and get a collection of scrolls for the rarely needed stuff.

MetaMagic Knowledge is usually worth it because there is bound to be at least one meta-magic you will regularly use.

You need to look at the whole picture when choosing traits, feats, and exploits. Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning is a lot more useful on an Occultist Arcanist than a Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist.

As with most casters: feats, traits, and exploits will be based on focus.

As for the other points:
A) Potent Magic is pretty much the Arcanist's niche, as far as I can tell. They don't have the versatility of a wizard, nor the spell slots of a sorcerer. So, they get the ability to make every spell count in exchange. That +2 DC will turn an optimized Color Spray, Charm Person, or Sleep at level 1 from a DC 17 to a DC 19 (Int20, SF), which many level 1 opponents can only save against on a nat20. Maybe it's not required at level 1, but at higher levels, it's very needed. That brings us to:

B) Quick Study is another exploit that is pretty much needed by the Arcanist. I wouldn't call it a crutch. Without it, the arcanist must walk into an encounter with a short sorcerer every-spell kind of list. It's extremely limiting, and "choos[ing] my spells wisely" doesn't really help when you have so few slots to fill with so many good things. A sorcerer can cover the buff/debuff/etc. bases, but the arcanist struggles to fill all of these roles with their relevant prepared slots (top 2 levels), even at high level play. Since they have to fill all of their prep slots at the beginning of the day, they can't even leave a slot open for situational spells. Scrolls are a thing, but Quick Study lets you use your caster level without paying out the nose for spells that need a high CL.

(Remember that CR is an approximation for DMs to gauge ahead of time how difficult the encounter will be)

A doppel-party will run into trouble as an encounter. The CR would end up very high. Remember that NPCs are usually on a 10 point buy, 15 if they're "heroic" (+1 CR/character) Then you have class levels, which play the "rock-paper-scissors" game. Gear ups the CR even higher, because the assumed gear of NPCs is significantly less than that expected of PCs. Equal footing on gear is a pretty big jump, not even including WHAT that gear is (+2-4 CR/character).

The final thing to note (and this is a biggie) is the optimization level of the party. Are they munchkins that gained the most with least expenditure? Are they RP focused kinds of players that prefer using quarterstaves and longswords instead of great swords and composite longbows? This is the last piece of the puzzle that is the hardest to really gauge. There's no mathematical operation, really, that can determine "optimization level" and turn that into a CR modifier.

My advice: Make NPCs. Give them NPC point-buy. Give them class levels. Give them NPC APPROPRIATE gear. Don't optimize them heavily. Focus instead on simply being functional. Ensure an even playing field... At this point, why not just play chess?

Don't take a non-full BAB class with a wizard without a distinct goal in mind. "Giving the bad guys a karate chop" isn't enough of a reason when Acid Splash and Ray of Frost exist as unlimited casts. However, if you want to multiclassing monk, I could see forgoing using your feats on spellcasting and instead grabbing combat maneuvers. Flurry can let you get multiple attempts, your Intelligence helps buy into Combat Expertise, then into Improved Trip or Disarm (even though Toppling Spell and Grease exist...)

Be aware that Planar Binding, while powerful, is significantly riskier than using Summon Monster. You need a Magic Circle against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and gold to make an offer at minimum. Beside that, you can summon demons at level 1. The "Fiendish" template creates demonic creatures, and at SM3, you can summon true demons. So, when you hit 6, you can summon your true demons to your heart's content.