builder_chris's page

Thanks for the interesting talk. its been fun. hope no one is too pissed off at me; was not my intention to be difficult.

However, I still don't understand how after 30 years of game evolution that this is not a simpler cleaner more refined set of rules. seems to me that too much of magic item creation is left up to "personal discretion" rather than a concrete and integral mechanic of the game.

peace

builder_chris wrote:

James Risner wrote:

builder_chris wrote:

Without rules a roll playing game is basically diminished to a children’s playground activity

I’m all for the art that comes with roll playing games

One of us is confused, I'm not sure if it is me or you.

What I meant by art is that the rules are hard (or near impossible) to codify for abstract things like item price cost.

It is hard to write "price it so it hurts to buy" because sometimes people think that 1000 gp is too much to pay for "at will cure light wounds" and others think that is 1,000,000 gp or more.

It is basically an artform to price an item at the proper breaking point where most people won't buy it because it costs too much.

most likely, its me that's confused.

I'm not trying to be difficult, and perhaps the problem is just my simple construction minded thinking, but I don't understand how the CREATION COST of any magic item is an abstract thing when its based off of prerequisites that are fixed numbers. for example, in this formula, spell level x caster level x 2,000 GP*. both the spell lvl and caster lvl are fixed numbers based on the level of the spell used to create the item and the minimum level required of a caster to cast that spell; in other words, the higher the level of the spell and the higher the level required to cast that spell dictates how difficult that item is to create when compared to other magic items. The 2,000 gp is also a fixed number, established by what means I'm not sure, but lets presume its just a number picked out of thin air simply to make all items (of a particular type) cost comparable. Those are all fixed numbers, so how is magic item CREATION COST an abstract thing?

now MARKET PRICE, sure I can see that being an abstract thing; I run into it all the time in my profession. people want a building, they know the size of it and the details of it but they ALWAYS want to negotiate the price they are willing to pay for it. BUT simply because

...

your right, all those variable you mentioned will change the cost to construct a concrete slab, and rather than delve into all the boring details of those tiny details...why not clean the formula up into some key things...like "type of magic item"...ie. ring, wands, potions, etc, all have base costs. no you want a ring based on a spell with a 24 hour duration or based on s spell with a 1mi/lelel duration...then the variable is adjusted. or based on a continues use or trigger. or based on a 5th level spell cast by a 9 the level PC, etc. etc. the specifications are giving in the prerquisites; potion, simple tiem, level 3 spell, low level, level 5 caster, mid level, duration, 24 hour, simpler than duration of 1 min/level fo caster., etc, etc.

my point is, those variable can be quantified using numbers and categories that are broad reaching and over arching in order to keep the matter simple and fun. no one wants to count all the nails that one needs to build a tree house, they just want to build the tree house so they just guess...I need 300 nails...but they still quantify what they need, its just streamlined into one factor. the existing chart already does this, its just not being used...as made obvious by the fact that not all item values calc up correctly when using the chart. SO...why even have the dang chart? why not just guess in the first place?

builder_chris wrote:

The formulas in the games book make clear logical sense to me, but they don’t add up with existing items in the game, and that’s what (imo) makes or breaks a magic item within the entire context of the games overall balance. If they all used the same formula, they would all be appropriately priced when compared with one another. But they’re not; some are apparently priced based on the “sweet spot” for selling them. In the real world, that’s a sure fire way to go out of business; why should it be any different in an RPG game that is designed to “mimic” reality? EVERYTHING has a fixed cost to create it, in any universe, and that fixed cost establishes its relative cost when compared to other items in that universe. Gold is valuable not because PCs want it to be, it’s valuable because when compared to other things like silver, there is less of it and so it is more valuable.

Your premise is wrong. This game isn't designed, has never been designed, to "mimic reality" in any real sense, neither in physics, nor in economics. It's designed to be an enabler for Action Adventure and roleplaying stories, all other considerations are a distant second at best. Above all it's designed to be a GAME. If you're looking for heuristic simulations of a real economy or ecology, you're seriously barking up some wrong trees.

ok, maybe "mimic" is too strong of a word for what a roll playing game is...perhaps "bring to life" is the better word? that phrase is used a lot in the core rule book, page 8 and page 410 to mention two locations. but if we are not trying, in a game way, to simulate real stuff "stuff" why do we even have things like skill checks? if I want to jump a pit, why cant I just say I jumped the pit...even if that pit is 100 feet across? why have any numbers in the game if we are not "simulating" something? numbers, imo, are game tools for creating fair and balanced play in a way that is measurable and tangible. without numbers how can any game be a game? and if numbers are not worked the same for all players, how can any game be fair and balanced?

builder_chris wrote:

I agree, a game altering item should have a game altering cost, but its value should not be based on its value to a party.

this is what I here when you say this...the value of any magic item should go up or down based on how it may or may not help your party, not how it impacts the games overall mechanics?

if an item is a game altering item, than its a game altering item...regardless of what any one party may or may not value in it. for example, an item suited for a fighter, while it might be game altering item, would most likely not have any value to a wizard, so simply because a wizard has no value for it, should the price go down? no. its a game altering item, regardless of who uses or doesn't use it.

One of the problems is that equal level spells don't have the same power.

Spells with a target of "you" or a range of "personal" generally are more powerful than spells of the same level that you can cast on another person.
Spell limited to a specific class list can be more powerful than spells that are open to all the classes.

Take the often mentioned True strike. it is a wizard/sorcerer spell. You don't find it in the Paladin or Ranger spell list?. Why?
Because giving a +20 to hit and the capacity to negate the concealment miss chance for one attack to a class with a high BAB and high damage with physical attacks can be way more powerful that giving it to a class with 1/2 BAB and weak physical attacks.
Dipping 1 level in the wizard or sorcerer class can be a way to get it for martial characters, but that has its cost. Getting a good UMD and a wand is another way to get it, but that is another set of costs.

Or take Lead Blades. Search the forum a bit, you will find plenty of attempts to get that spell in a character spell list, why? Because it is very good for plenty of builds.
An item capable to cast lead blades an unlimited number of times in a day isn't worth 2.000 gp, but that is the price you will get following the guidelines.

So...

so...what your saying is...not all spells of the same level are equal? I see your point and at the same time...I don't see your point. if a spell is listed as a 3rd level...its a 3rd level spell. period. if its stronger or weaker then other third level spells...then its not a 3rd level spell and should be adjusted up or down in levels until it fits into that "sweet spot" for how it plays...but then...its still equal to other spells of that level. so spell level is the equalizing factor of some spells...regardless of "perceived" value of those spells. and yet, with all the variables and potential uses and outcomes of each spell, how do we really know if one spell is an equal spell when compared to another spell? fact is, we don't know and never will be able to know because there are just too many variables...SO....a simple game mechanic is to assign a spell level to them. simple. clean. clear. too many variables (imo) to start comparing if a 5th level spell equals other 5th level spells...unless you sub categorize them and have spells that are level 5.5 or 5.4 or 5.3 or 5.9. KISS...a spell of level x is equivalent in "power" to other spells in the same level.

its like the last variable on the magic item creation chart, in the case of wondrous items its 2,000 gp. that's a simple, clean, clear variable that sums up all the "stuff" required to make wondrous items. no need to break that variable down any further. one could say you need 1 oz of copper, 10 oz of steel, 4 pounds of wood, 60 pound of pillow feathers....but why...2,000 gp base "stuff" cost for wondrous items is clean and applies equally to all wondrous items just like spell level and caster levels are equalizing factors for areas of magic that have tons of variables. who is to say that a 3 level wizard played by me is the same as a 3rd level wizard played by you...even if we had all the exact same stats and gear? there are some variables, especially in games, that are not able to be quantified, but most, like spell level, caster level and GP of "stuff" required to make a ring, or wand, or wondrous item can be quantified. its those integers that should be used to calc relative value and strength when compared to one another...not..."price it to something else that YOU think is the same or similar".

ultimately, I don't know why I am doing all this debating for, I'm not a game designer with any ability to change the official game rules and the game rules right now are what they are regardless of what I think of them. but...its fun to talk about.

So, I think a main reason why I don’t see this the same as other is because I see that there are two approaches for creating magic items; one approach is from the perspective of the DM and the other approach is from the perspective of a PC/NPC.

The DM is looking at the creation of magic items from the outside of the game; as a god capable of creating anything.

The PC/NPC is looking at the creation of magic items from inside the game; a being restricted by the laws of the game.

On one hand, they both have to follow game rules, and yet at the same time, the DM potentially has the power to do what they wish; regardless of the games rules. And in my opinion, it’s when a DM steps outside of the games rules to create what they want to that creates things that don’t work well in the game.

I’ll try to explain:
Let’s say we want to create a magic ring.
The first thing that both the PC/NPC and the DM look at is the item type…a ring.
The rules of the game…and I quote…define a ring as….

RINGS
Rings bestow magical powers upon their wearers. Only a rare few have charges—most magic rings are permanent and potent magic items. Anyone can use a ring.

A character can only effectively wear two magic rings. A third magic ring doesn’t work if the wearer is already wearing two magic rings.

Physical Description: Rings have no appreciable weight. Although exceptions exist that are crafted from glass or bone, the vast majority of rings are forged from metal—usually precious metals such as gold, silver, and platinum. A ring has AC 13, 2 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 25.

Activation: A ring’s ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring’s specific description.

Special Qualities: Roll d%. A result of 01 indicates the ring is intelligent, 02–31 indicates that something (a design, inscription, or the like) provides a clue to its function, and 32–100 indicates no special qualities. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes (see page 532). Rings with charges can never be intelligent.

I don’t know if you noticed, but nowhere in the description of what a ring is, did it say that it’s a circlet worn on the finger of a PC/NPCs hand. It’s apparently presumed that we all know what a ring is, since it doesn’t explicitly say that a ring is a circlet worn on a finger.

So both DM and PC are bound by the rules that define a ring as a ring. BUT…the DM…since they are god, if they wanted to, they could say…”no, the magic ring I am creating is worn on a PCs/NPCs head…not their finger” WAIT A MINUTE!!! That’s not a ring! That’s a Crown! The DM could do that; the PC could not since he is firmly restricted by the rules of the game. So, from both perspectives, DM or PC, in order to make a magic ring…in the game…that does not break the rules of the game…must follow the same rules that govern what a ring is. Otherwise, there is a bust someplace. Either the DM is stepping out of bounds or the PC is stepping out of bounds.

The same holds true, imo, of all other factors for creating ANYTHING in the game; but especially magic items. For example, if there are prerequisites required to create a magic item, both the DM and PCs should be bound by those same prerequisites.

The way the rules are, currently, give me the impression that DMs can (and should) “edit” things up or down as they see fit. That’s goofy to say the least, and downright cheating to put it nicely. Every being, creator or created, in any universe, real or imagined, should and are bound by the same laws of that universe. Their ability to manipulate elements of that universe are not bound by their ability, but rather their bound by their understanding of how those elements interact with one another in that universe. For example, steel has always been possible to create in our own universe. Man didn’t “invent it” they discovered it. But simply because they hadn’t discovered it at one point in our world’s history, doesn’t mean the laws that governed its creation didn’t exist, or changed when we learned how to make steel.

Now, granted, this is a game…BUT…if a magic item is created by the use of magic, and the magic needed to create an item is of high value (difficult to perform) than that item should also be of high value…regardless of what any PC or NPC wants to pay for it.

For example, all potions are “simple” magic items, but not all potions are simple potions so not all potions should be the same cost to create or buy/sell, and because they don’t have the same cost to create, they should not have the same market price, regardless of what PCs want to pay for potions.

A 1st level magic user might want to cast high level spells, but the cost for him to cast them is offset by the fact that he needs to increase his caster level BEFORE he can cast those spells, regardless of how bad he wants to cast those spell, the DM should not lower the requirements governed to cast that spell just to suite the PCs wants.

The formulas in the games book make clear logical sense to me, but they don’t add up with existing items in the game, and that’s what (imo) makes or breaks a magic item within the entire context of the games overall balance. If they all used the same formula, they would all be appropriately priced when compared with one another. But they’re not; some are apparently priced based on the “sweet spot” for selling them. In the real world, that’s a sure fire way to go out of business; why should it be any different in an RPG game that is designed to “mimic” reality? EVERYTHING has a fixed cost to create it, in any universe, and that fixed cost establishes its relative cost when compared to other items in that universe. Gold is valuable not because PCs want it to be, it’s valuable because when compared to other things like silver, there is less of it and so it is more valuable.

builder_chris wrote:

most likely, its me that's confused.

I'm not trying to be difficult, and perhaps the problem is just my simple construction minded thinking, but I don't understand how the CREATION COST of any magic item is an abstract thing when its based off of prerequisites that are fixed numbers. for example, in this formula, spell level x caster level x 2,000 GP*. both the spell lvl and caster lvl are fixed numbers based on the level of the spell used to create the item and the minimum level required of a caster to cast that spell; in other words, the higher the level of the spell and the higher the level required to cast that spell dictates how difficult that item is to create when compared to other magic items. The 2,000 gp is also a fixed number, established by what means I'm not sure, but lets presume its just a number picked out of thin air simply to make all items (of a particular type) cost comparable. Those are all fixed numbers, so how is magic item CREATION COST an abstract thing?

Creation cost is an abstract thing because it reflects the value of an object to the party, as does market price. A game-altering item should have a game altering cost even if you make it yourself.

I agree, a game altering item should have a game altering cost, but its value should not be based on its value to a party.

this is what I here when you say this...the value of any magic item should go up or down based on how it may or may not help your party, not how it impacts the games overall mechanics?

if an item is a game altering item, than its a game altering item...regardless of what any one party may or may not value in it. for example, an item suited for a fighter, while it might be game altering item, would most likely not have any value to a wizard, so simply because a wizard has no value for it, should the price go down? no. its a game altering item, regardless of who uses or doesn't use it.

Khrysaor wrote:

I see this one too much. True strike cannot ever be made into a magic item other than a daily usage item. X charges per day.

The rules of spell casting clearly state the pricing of items based on the duration of the spell. There is no pricing for instantaneous spells and as such cannot be made into anything other than X charges per day items.

It is instant, so you cannot make a continuous version. You can, however, make a version that is on command. That is where the 1,800 comes from. However, because it gives a +20 BAB, it gets priced at 400,000, but then halved since it does not give damage. At least that is how it was priced in 3.5.

/cevah

wow, 30 years of evolution and the question of if a spell with a duration of instant can or can not be made into a magic item isn't crystal clear?

builder_chris wrote:

I've been trying...I wonder why....to create a wondrous item...and I'm frustrated and disappointed, to say the least, to discover that there really is no "system" for creating magic items. as best I can tell its based on a persons whimsical fancy. I say this because I've taken the time to study several existing items, and with very few exceptions, the math in the chart and the cost of the items don't add up. so where did those costs come from in the first place?

The prices, and even definitions, of magic items have evolved from previous editions. Over 30 years of playing has found the sweet spot for most standard items, and with that base, similar items were piced at a similar value. In 2.0, they started to come up with formulas to ballpark the prices. In 3.0, they decided to try to come up with standard formulas to get even more exact prices. However, due to game balance issues, some items are under or over priced relative to the formula. Additional rules were put in place to keep obvious cheese out, like the ring-of-true-strike for 1,800. It is instead closer to 200,000.

/cevah

when you say "found the sweet spot" I presume you mean found the ideal price that players (PCs) are WILLING to pay for an item not the actual construction cost of it.

the construction cost should be simple to figure out since most, if not all magic items, are based off of spell levels and caster levels and types of items. If a spell exists, it has already been incorporated into he game at a certain level of difficulty. so, again, if you want a simple item (a potion) made from a simple low level spell, created by a low level caster it will be calculated to a simple low cost that is comparable to other simple low level potions. And, if you want a very difficult to create magic item (say a wondrous item) made from a high level spell, cast by a high level spell caster, the cost by default, is a high cost item....regardless of the price you might want to pay for it. when you compare the cost of those two things, simple low level potions, to difficult high level wondrous items, the costs will be proportionality comparable...balanced off of mechanics instead of play whim...i.e. "what I want to pay for it".

I'll wager that a Lamborghini is not priced on what they think the sweet spot is that people will be willing to pay for it with a total disregard to what it cost to create it. I doubt they based the price of their sports car to what people are paying for "similar" sports cars.

builder_chris wrote:

Without rules a roll playing game is basically diminished to a children’s playground activity

I’m all for the art that comes with roll playing games

One of us is confused, I'm not sure if it is me or you.

What I meant by art is that the rules are hard (or near impossible) to codify for abstract things like item price cost.

It is hard to write "price it so it hurts to buy" because sometimes people think that 1000 gp is too much to pay for "at will cure light wounds" and others think that is 1,000,000 gp or more.

It is basically an artform to price an item at the proper breaking point where most people won't buy it because it costs too much.

most likely, its me that's confused.

I'm not trying to be difficult, and perhaps the problem is just my simple construction minded thinking, but I don't understand how the CREATION COST of any magic item is an abstract thing when its based off of prerequisites that are fixed numbers. for example, in this formula, spell level x caster level x 2,000 GP*. both the spell lvl and caster lvl are fixed numbers based on the level of the spell used to create the item and the minimum level required of a caster to cast that spell; in other words, the higher the level of the spell and the higher the level required to cast that spell dictates how difficult that item is to create when compared to other magic items. The 2,000 gp is also a fixed number, established by what means I'm not sure, but lets presume its just a number picked out of thin air simply to make all items (of a particular type) cost comparable. Those are all fixed numbers, so how is magic item CREATION COST an abstract thing?

now MARKET PRICE, sure I can see that being an abstract thing; I run into it all the time in my profession. people want a building, they know the size of it and the details of it but they ALWAYS want to negotiate the price they are willing to pay for it. BUT simply because they might not want to pay a certain amount doesn't change what it costs to build something. For example, if you want a concrete slab built that is 10 feet wide x 10 feet long x 1 foot thick = you need 100 cubic feet of concrete. and if concrete costs $10 a cubic foot, the cost , just for the material, is $1,000...regardless of what you might want to pay for it. now if I want/need to charge you 2,000 to build it, you might want to only pay 1,500. so the market price is abstract based on what you want to pay for it and what I am willing to sell it to you for. But, again, the material needed to make the item is a fixed cost based on how large or small or detailed you want the thing to be.

you want a simple magic item like a potion, created with a simple 1st level spell castable by a 1st level wizard, its dirt cheap to build it. you want a wondrous item, created with a high level spell that can only be cast by a high level spell caster, that item is going to have a high creation cost. a concrete slab that is 1,000 feet wide x 1,000 feet long x 1 foot thick require more material than a smaller slab...clean and simple...nothing abstract about that.

Magic item creation is an "art" not a science.

To boil it down to a chart, you would need a separate chart item for each spell or effect. This would be unsustainable fast.

Have you ever read page 63 of the D&D 3.5 Rules Compendium? It’s basically a one page article about “Rules and Fun”. It’s written by designer James Wyatt. He says it better than I ever could and what he says in a nut shell…and I quote…is this “Rules limit…escalation and enforce balance.”

Without rules a roll playing game is basically diminished to a children’s playground activity where there are no limits and bounds and everyone is a god that is only limited by how fast and vast their imagination is; there is no balance in that. That is not a game.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the art that comes with roll playing games, but games need rules in order to create balance. How are we to believe that this games overall mechanics are balanced when the process for creating magic items, a large part of the game, is simply left up to the artful interpretation of each individual magic items creator? Where is the balance in that? where is the fun in playing the game if its not a fair and balanced game?

Gunn wrote:

I've found a table for the cost ... what about a permanent effect?

If you found the table, then you jumped to the "last step" in item creation.

The first couple steps are price like similar items and price like similar power, so an item that grants 4 AC should be price similar to Bracers of Armor. Using the same slot and same cost.

I've never attempted to create magic items, I've always just played with ones in the books or modules. And I always presumed that those items were created by the use of game rules that dictated and governed overall balance in relation to the games overall balance.

I've been trying...I wonder why....to create a wondrous item...and I'm frustrated and disappointed, to say the least, to discover that there really is no "system" for creating magic items. as best I can tell its based on a persons whimsical fancy. I say this because I've taken the time to study several existing items, and with very few exceptions, the math in the chart and the cost of the items don't add up. so where did those costs come from in the first place?