aaron infante-levy's page

29 posts. 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


Tooze wrote:
aaron infante-levy wrote:
Tooze wrote:

This is what I use:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075G3C5J3/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8& amp;psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

They work great and are relatively inexpensive... plus Prime shipping!

Thanks Tooze! Ordering some now!
Not a problem. Do you use pawns a lot? I've been working on a searchable database if you'd like to take a look and offer feedback

Very cool! I'm just beginning to use pawns to fill out my small minis collection, just have the Bestiary 1 and Inner Sea sets so far. We play 5e, so the more generic sets are of most interest to me.

I'd be happy to give you feedback on your database!

Tooze wrote:

This is what I use:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075G3C5J3/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8& amp;psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

They work great and are relatively inexpensive... plus Prime shipping!

Thanks Tooze! Ordering some now!

I recently picked up the Bestiary Pawns box at my FLGS, and liked it so much I ordered the Inner Sea Pawns box. However, how to store these suckers in the best way? After much YouTube and forum browsing I settled on putting each sheet in a 3-hole document sleeve.

However, they won't fit in the 8.5"x11" Topper sleeves I have!

Picture of my dilemma

There are a plethora of document sleeves out there, but which ones will fit a cardboard sheet of pawns?

Thanks for any help you can offer :)

RSPK wrote:
I'm absolutely sure. The narrative fiction of how Escape Route normally works between two allies is that one of you is actively warding away enemy attacks in order to cover the other's advance. With Mind Game Tactics, you're not only treating a targeted enemy as though they're an ally to garner a benefit from your own teamwork feat, but you're also garnering the benefit of their "bestowed" teamwork feat. As Ryan Freire pointed out, you gain a benefit from either or both perspectives, the enemy gets nothing. This could be expressed narratively by you noticing an opening in an enemy's stance or positioning and exploiting it. Your movement is so abrupt or hard to track he's having trouble leveraging attacks against you. Either his feeble attempts at attacking you are inadvertently keeping his allies at bay, or they are afraid of hitting him by accident. This fulfills the mechanical benefit of not provoking an AoO for movement from anyone within those 5 feet.

Ah I see... Thanks RSPK! :)

aaron infante-levy wrote:

Just tried running the Reaper of Secrets in the game I was invited into, and... I think Mind-Game Tactics just flat-out doesn't work narratively.

I get the mechanical idea...but as far as role-playing a convincing narrative of "I'm your ally, share my teamwork feat", it only really works if I role-play with a sentient NPC in advance of fighting them.
The DM vetoed my attempted use of it during a surprise round, and frankly I agreed with him. Narratively, it just doesn't make sense.


RSPK wrote:

It would help if you're more specific. Which Teamwork or Betrayal feat were you attempting to use in this instance? What was the situation that caused the narrative to not follow the fiction?

As others have pointed out, Betrayal feats don't really work with this ability or Solo Tactics by RAW, but when they do it's by exception and very limited due to the technicality. YMMV if you are trying to leverage Betrayal feats in this way. To be honest, there are a few cases where I can narratively imagine the Betrayal feat Wild Flanking working in the manner you are attempting to use them. Either way Mind-Game Tactics specifically calls out:

She cannot use this ability to benefit from any teamwork feats that require particular actions from allies

Your targeted "ally" is not and can not be a willing participant. That's the main crux of why Betrayal feats as a whole do not work here, and may be why your group is running into trouble. It's the same reason the Betrayal feat Ally Shield doesn't work but the regular teamwork feat Back to Back does while being generally similar by narrative. Or why Swing About, Swap Places and Reckless Moves wouldn't work, but Escape Route and Stick Together would.

The narrative gist of the archetype's key ability is that you are so adept at reading your enemies' body language and intent that you can use the chaotic nature of a battle/situation to subtly manipulate and exploit them. With you always one step ahead, they cannot help but aid your efforts while impeding one another despite themselves.

The feat in question was Ally Shield. The situation was another PC and I were invisible & infiltrating a keep to rescue a captive boy. It turned out he'd been turned into a construct of some kind, we presumed by an evil artificer who seemed to control him. We decided to launch a sneak attack. Other player wanted me to flank with him, so I intended to use Ally Shield to get the boy-turned-construct to strike at the evil artificer instead if the boy-turned-construct attacked me and missed.

I only have d20pfsrd.com as my source...but it doesn't mention anything about requiring action or willingness from your ally with the feat (a.k.a. "abettor")...


On the contrary, it mentions actually pulling them into harm's way, regardless of their choice.

I don't understand, but since you guys are experienced with the game and are saying it's a technicality and not RAI, I'll just accept that & drop Reaper of Secrets as not working for my ranged Inquisitor. Thanks.

Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
aaron infante-levy wrote:

"Books fly" LOL

Well, Betrayal feats came out in 2014 (Champions of Corruption) before Reaper of Secrets appeared in 2015 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Dirty Tactics Toolbox)...so in theory the designer/authors created Reaper of Secrets perfectly aware of Betrayal Feats, intending them to be used with the Reaper of Secrets.

The reasons books would fly isn't the Reaper of Secrets, it's because Betrayal feats only work with an Inquisitor (who came out 2010, long before Betrayal feats) due to a technicality - Betrayal feat's uses for "share your teamwork feats with others" classes are limited, but Inquisitors don't really share those feats, they just get bonuses as if their allies had the same feats.

It's pretty clear that this isn't a reasonable distinction - Inquisitors should treat Betrayal feats as any other Teamwork feat sharing class, with the Inquisitor only being an acceptable target, not someone who can actually betray others (unless those actually have the same feat). But using this technically to not only use Betrayal feats, but to also put the betrayal penalty on the enemy? Yeah, that's just rules-lawyering cheese.

My intent was not rules-lawyering cheese. Even if that were my style (it's not - story first guy here & long-time DM), I'm nowhere near well-versed enough in Pathfinder to even attempt culturing my own cheese. ;)

I was invited into a group running Pathfinder. This is my first Pathfinder character. Mostly I've DMed 5e or various editions of D&D. They're great fellas, so I jumped at a chance to be a player for a change.

My character is a sort of Littlefinger/Verys type (to use a Game of Thrones analogy), a street kid with a knack for establishing rapport with ravens who once worked for the church as an undercover inquisitor (after getting caught), felt like he was sold out, parted ways with church and became a spymaster / master of ravens for an old monster-hunting order called the Silver Swords.

System-wise, he is a LG Human Bard (Voice of the Wild) 1, Inquisitor (Reaper of Secrets) 6. However, after the session I joined, I'm considering dropping Reaper of Secrets with the DM's permission because it doesn't seem to work.

I really was envisioning him being a "grey" PC (even though he's Lawful Good), in that I wanted to evoke the question "whose side is he on anyway?" in many scenes. I'll explain my thinking & an actual play example below in my reply to RSPK...

Just tried running the Reaper of Secrets in the game I was invited into, and... I think Mind-Game Tactics just flat-out doesn't work narratively.

I get the mechanical idea...but as far as role-playing a convincing narrative of "I'm your ally, share my teamwork feat", it only really works if I role-play with a sentient NPC in advance of fighting them.

The DM vetoed my attempted use of it during a surprise round, and frankly I agreed with him. Narratively, it just doesn't make sense.

Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:

It's not that confusing.

Teamwork feats in general: The Inquisitor gets to pretend their allies had the same teamwork feats as them. Said allies gain no benefit from this unless they actually have those feats.
Betrayal feats in general: If you play a "share teamwork feats with others" class, said feats can only be used *against* you. (This technically does not affect the Inquisitor, since they don't actually share the feats - they only get benefits as if their allies had them, but their allies get nothing. Wear a helmet, hardcovers might be send flying your way.)

Reaper of Secrets: You treat an enemy as if they were an ally, otherwise the stuff above applies. (You get teamwork benefits with your enemy, they get nothing. If you use betrayal feats, books fly.)

"Books fly" LOL

Well, Betrayal feats came out in 2014 (Champions of Corruption) before Reaper of Secrets appeared in 2015 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Dirty Tactics Toolbox)...so in theory the designer/authors created Reaper of Secrets perfectly aware of Betrayal Feats, intending them to be used with the Reaper of Secrets.

Kristal Moonhand wrote:

Technically, by RAW Betrayal feats DO work with Inquisitor.

Betrayal Feats wrote:
Characters with class abilities granting allies access to teamwork feats (such as cavaliers or inquisitors) can select these teamwork feats normally, but allies who are granted these feats can use the feats only as initiators, not as abettors.
Cuz Inquisitors DON'T grant feats to allies. It's clearly not RAI, but if it was, they should have worded it better. RAI, Betrayal feats don't work with Inquisitor at all, since if they're not granted the feat, they can't use it as an initiator.

Now I'm thoroughly confused.

Is there any way to ask the devs for clarification about how Reaper of Secrets is intended to act with teamwork feats?

RSPK wrote:
From what I understand the way Escape Route works with Mind-Game Tactics and Soul-Piercing Gaze is like this: As long as you are within 5 feet of the target of your Soul-Piercing Gaze you never provoke for movement, ever, from anyone. You could spend a double move and just repeatably circle around a targeted enemy and you would not provoke, provided you remain adjacent for the entirety of your movement.

Are you sure?

Escape Route reads...

Benefit: An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space.

So if you replace "ally who also has this feat" with "enemy", which is what Soul-Piercing Gaze & Mind-Game Tactics are intended to do, it reads...

Benefit: An enemy provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space.

So it says nothing about ME not provoking. It says my ENEMY wouldn't provoke.

Therefor I think it's a no-go for this build.

Tentatively, I'm taking Ally Shield & Lookout, which are the best I could find, and will discuss with rest of the group.

Ryan Freire wrote:
Escape route is the one i was thinking of. If your opponents cant attack you for walking away, thats like half of the issue of ranged characters.

Yeah, there seems to be misunderstanding about the Escape teamwork feat. This may be because the summary blurb on both d20PFSRD and Archive of Nethys is flat-out wrong.

The blurb reads:

You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving through spaces adjacent to allies

However, that's not what the actual feat does at all:


Escape Route

You have trained to watch your allies’ backs, covering them as they make tactical withdraws.

Benefit: An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space.

So when combined with the Reaper of Secrets' Soul-Piercing Gaze & Mind-Game Tactics... you'd essentially replace "an ally who also has this feat" with "a foe", which would make no sense (or at least NOT be to your advantage to thus empower a foe).

I'm beginning to suspect that the subtext behind Reaper of Secrets is that it's intended to be a melee-focused build. Nothing in the flavor says that, and nothing obvious in the mechanics. I've had to comb through all the teamwork feats and the only one I've found that fits a ranged Inquisitor (Reaper of Secrets) is Ally Shield.

Just one.

RSPK wrote:
I'm currently playing a Reaper of Secrets/Sanctified Slayer in a Curse of the Crimson Throne game my DM is running. Even though our builds would have very different approaches I can still lend some advice.

Thanks RSPK! Especially for that bit about immediate actions – never would have realized that without you pointing it out.

I am considering Escape Route and also Ally Shield...though Ally Shield raises some questions too...like could it effectively cause an enemy attacking you in melee to act as cover against his own attack...and possibly hit himself...

Some good ones, thanks!

Ryan Freire wrote:
Safe passage should be hilarious.

Where is Safe Passage from? I didn't see it on d20pfsrd or achivesofnethus.

Lemartes wrote:
Escape Route

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think Escape Route works in this case?

Say I used Soul-Piercing Gaze & Mind-Game Tactics on an ogre to "give" it the Escape Route feat. Now it acts as "an ally who also has this feat." So I'd be granting the ogre the power to provoke no AoO for moving through squares adjacent to me or within my space.

Why on earth would I want that? Unless I cast charm monster on the ogre (which is not on the inquisitor's spell list).


Escape Route

Benefit: An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space.
pavaan wrote:

bonded mind would be funny.

lots of Betrayal teamwork feats.
Friendly Fire is a good one.
Volley Fire for the no cover part
Pack Attack to attack and move away.

Bonded Mind would be fun! Thanks for the ideas...

However, I'm thinking @Lemartes is right that Betrayal Feats wouldn't work in this case.

Take Friendly Fire... If I used Soul-Piercing Gaze & Mind-Game Tactics to "give" an ogre the Friendly Fire feat temporarily, then it would essentially become the "abettor."

So I'd target a foe, say a goblin, but then that goblin would need to be engaged in melee with the ogre. In other words, Friendly Fire would only be useful with Mind-Game Tactics if two enemies are fighting one another. Seems too corner case to be useful.


Friendly Fire

Benefit(s): You initiate this feat as a standard action, making a ranged attack against a foe engaged in melee with at least one abettor. This shot deliberately forsakes normal precautions, putting your abettor at risk, but also is unexpected enough to surprise your mutual opponent.

You gain a +2 bonus on your attack roll if the attack passes through an abettor’s space. If your shot misses the target, you must immediately make a second attack roll with all the same modifiers against the abettor, potentially hitting her with the attack instead of the opponent. When the attack resolves (regardless of whether either potential target was hit), the intended target’s startled reaction provokes an attack of opportunity from the abettor.

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I'm creating a crossbow-focused Inquisitor with the Reaper of Secrets archetype. The Reaper of Secrets grants a class feature called Mind-Game Tactics (replacing Solo Tactics) which essentially allows you to treat foes as if they have Teamwork feats you possess...

...this seems like it should open up all kinds of shenanigans...

However, with many Teamwork feats the result of doing so is nonsensical or offers no advantage whatsoever. For example, most Teamwork feats stipulate "when adjacent to an ally"...which when combined with Mind-Game Tactics can be translated to "when adjacent to a foe"...but an archer wants to avoid being adjacent to enemies as much as possible!

Which Teamwork feats work well with Mind-Game Tactics and a ranged Inquisitor? Thanks for your insights!


Mind-Game Tactics (Su): At 3rd level, a reaper of secrets can read other creatures so well she can use their reactions to gain a tactical advantage. She treats any creature targeted by her soul-piercing gaze as if it were her ally and possessed the same teamwork feats as she does for the purposes of positioning and threatening when she determines whether she receives a benefit from her teamwork feats. She cannot use this ability to benefit from any teamwork feats that require particular actions from allies, such as Swap Places.

For example, a reaper of secrets with the Precise Strike feat gains the bonus from that feat if she and the target of her soul-piercing gaze occupy flanking positions relative to the creature she attacks.

This ability replaces Solo Tactics.

Thanks very much for your answers! That makes sense.

I think I could use some help with my character build... is this the right sub-forum to pose character build questions in?

Specifically wondering about the Reaper of Secrets (Inquisitor archetype) and their Mind-Game Tactics feature...replacing Solo Tactics...allows you to treat creatures you stare at (mainly would be enemies) as having Teamwork feats you possess. Trying to determine *which* Teamwork feats would work with this archetype. Many do not.

Looked at the Inquisitor guides on the net & none of them deal with the Reaper of Secrets, and couldn't find informative discussion online.

In attempting to make my first Pathfinder character – an Inquisitor with Oracle secondary class – I stumbled on a dilemma...

I took the Powerless Prophecy curse, which states:

Powerless Prophecy: You are forewarned of danger but can’t act to prevent it. You gain uncanny dodge, as the rogue class feature. However, you can’t take any actions in a surprise round, including free actions, except for flash of insight (see Revelations below). In the absence of a surprise round, you are staggered for the entire first round of combat.

I'm considering taking an archetype for my Inquisitor and was looking at Cloaked Wolf as one possibility. Cloaked Wolf grants the Always Wary feature, which states:

Alway Wary (Ex): A cloaked wolf is always ready for betrayal and subterfuge. Whenever she attempts a Sense Motive check to avoid being surprised by a foe using Bluff to conceal the attack, the cloaked wolf can always act during the surprise round, regardless of the result of the check. At 2nd level, she adds her Wisdom modifier (in addition to her Dexterity modifier) to her initiative checks during any such encounter.

How is this resolved according to the rules?

Would "the oracle’s curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity" stipulation of the curse make Always Wary basically meaningless to this character?

Or would Always Wary act as a corner-case exception to the usual provisions of the Powerless Prophecy curse?

Many thanks!

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Long time D&Der here, but first time really delving into Pathfinder. I'm looking at joining a Pathfinder game in a homebrew "Witcher-esque" setting (all official Paizo content allowed) with the following non-optimized 7th-level party:

  • Alchemist (Construct Rider) + Bloodrager (Urban) + Swashbuckler (Mouser) = I have no idea!
  • Bloodrager = tank
  • Investigator = skill monkey/face
  • Sorcerer = blaster/mage

They definitely could use a PC fulfilling the "support/healer" role from conversations with the other players. That's a role I can enjoy, but I want to put a twist on it...a "Littlefinger" type character but with a heart of gold serving as a "Master of Ravens" in the PC's organization, a "thief who now works for the church/state" sort of vibe.

How does my build below look? LG Human Bard (Brazen Deceiver) 4 + Ranger (Urban Ranger & Divine Marksman) 3 + Oracle (Streets) secondary class.

I *think* this makes a competent if slightly under-powered character who can serve as another "rogue type" (face / trap-disarmer / skill monkey), a healer/support, and a ranged combatant. But this is my first time really digging into Pathfinder, so if something looks off or there's a better option, please let me know!

Still have a 1st-level feat. Would love a "gritty contacts/network of informants" type feat! Any suggestions?

Also still have ~4,000 gp to spend. Any suggestions?

Thanks! :)


CL 1 -- Bard (Brazen Deceiver) 1
-- traits (Canter, Exchange Agent)
-- human ability score (+2 Charisma)
-- human bonus feat (Iron Will)
-- 1st-level feat (?)
-- Bardic Performance (deceptive tale, fascinate, inspire courage +1), Cantrips, Shameless Scoundrel, Uncanny Dodge*
-- Spells Known (0th: daze, message, sift, unwitting ally; 1st: charm person, heightened awareness, saving finale)
-- Oracle Mystery (add Bluff, Knowledge (local), Perception, and Stealth to list of class skills)
-- Oracle Curse (Powerless Prophecy*)
-- favored class (+1 skill rank)

CL 2 -- Ranger 1 (Urban Ranger & Divine Marksman)
-- Oracle Mystery (add "disguise self" to spells known)
-- Bullseye Shot, Favored Enemy (human), Urban Ranger

CL 3 -- Ranger 2
-- Combat Style Feat: Crossbow (Focused Shot)
-- Secondary Class Feature: Oracle Revelation (Eyes of the Streets)

CL 4 -- Ranger 3
-- Oracle Mystery (add "detect thoughts" to spells known...but only gain access to it once reaching 4th-level Bard)
-- Favored Community (<CITY NAME>), Trapfinding
-- ability score boost (+1 Intelligence)

CL 5 -- Bard 2
-- 5th-level feat (Deadly Aim)
-- Spells Known (0th: detect magic, bleed, touch of fatigue; 1st: cure light wounds)
-- Blatant Subtlety, Invoke the Blood
-- favored class (+1 skill rank)

CL 6 -- Bard 3
-- Bardic Performance (inspire competence +2)
-- Spells Known (0th: read magic; 1st: summon minor monster)
-- favored class (+1 skill rank)

CL 7 -- Bard 4
-- Spells Known (2nd: animal messenger, calm emotions, steal voice)
-- Secondary Class Feature: Oracle Orison ("stabilize")
-- favored class (bonus known spell: "calm emotions")


Dietrich Kraust the Thieftaker
LG Human Bard (Brazen Deceiver) 4, Ranger (Urban Ranger & Divine Marksman) 3, with Oracle (Streets) secondary class
Str 10, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 16
HP 45; AC 17 (mithral shirt +1, ring of protection +1); Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +8 (cloak of protection +1, Iron Will)

Feats: ? (1st-level feat?), Iron Will (human bonus feat), Spellsong (Blatant Subtlety bonus feat), Bullseye Shot (Divine Marksman bonus feat), Focused Shot (Ranger Combat Style feat), Deadly Aim (5th-level feat)

Skills: Appraise +6, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +10, Disguise +13, Escape Artist +5, Handle Animal +10, Heal +5, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Knowledge (History) +6, Knowledge (Local) +6, Knowledge (Nature) +6, Knowledge (Nobility) +6, Linguistics +7, Perception +8, Perform (Oratory) +11, Ride +5, Sense Motive +9, Sleight of Hand +7, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +8, Survival +6, Use Magic Device +7

0th: bleed, daze, detect magic, message, read magic, sift, stabilize, touch of fatigue, unwitting ally
1st: charm person, cure light wounds, disguise self, heightened awareness, saving finale, summon minor monster (celestial ravens)
2nd: animal messenger, calm emotions, detect thoughts, steal voice

Magic Items & Equipment (11,273 gp spent out of 16,105 gp allowed):
light crossbow +1 = 2,335 gp
longsword +1 = 2,315 gp
mithral shirt +1 = 2,100 gp
ring of protection +1 = 2,000 gp
cloak of resistance +1 = 1,000 gp
10 durable adamantine bolts = 610 gp
potion of cure moderate wounds = 300 gp
sleeves of many garments = 200 gp
scroll of blood biography (2nd-level bard)= 200 gp
masterwork thieves' tools =100 gp
rookery of 24 messenger ravens = 48 gp
scroll of comprehend languages (1st-level bard) 25 gp
scroll of share language (1st-level bard) = 25 gp
falconry gauntlet = 10 gp
spell component pouch = 5 gp


CHILDHOOD: Dietrich Kraust worked his way up from below, the indolent son of a traveling coffin-maker and a blind heretic. To do his part providing for his family, the boy turned to thieving – con-artists pretending to be priests, potion-peddlers, traveling ascetics, and drunken mages among his favored targets. Only his extraordinary charisma saved him from lashing; indeed on several occasions Dietrich managed to befriend (or at least beguile) those he'd stolen from...

BARDIC APPRENTICESHIP (Bard 1): One mage, a canny enchanter and practiced con named ELAVREA was impressed by Dietrich's gift-of-gab, and took him under her wing. An unhealthy romance formed between them as Dietrich learned the bardic arts and rudiments of magic, while ELAVREA used him toward her own unscrupulous ends. Despite ELAVREA'S attempts, Dietrich proved ethically incorruptible, and so it was that he was sent on a final mission to prove himself – he had to steal the Wanton Eye from the Statue of <INSERT DEITY NAME> in the temple. However, he was caught by the temple guards! ELAVREA got away with the Wanton Eye, and Dietrich would not give her away. A grim fate awaited the thief, surely...

DIVINE INTERVENTION (Oracle secondary class): VOUND the high priest of <INSERT DEITY NAME>, had a premonition as Dietrich awaited execution, and ordered the young man brought to the Pit of Sacred Fumes. There, Dietrich's eyes became permanently clouded and an unfathomable presence touched his mind, filling him with visions of ravens over a battlefield. Unhappy with this divine sign, but not willing to risk angering his deity, the high priest VOUND had Dietrich sent into exile...

THE WORG CORPS (Ranger 3): Sentenced to compulsory military service in defense of <INSERT CITY NAME>, Dietrich found himself in a mercenary scouting band known as the WORG CORPS. Misfits and criminals sent behind enemy lines, backstabbing was common place among the WORG CORPS and not a night went by without a dagger close to Dietrich's bedroll. Though trained as an arbalister, his knack for bolstering the spirits of his brethren (and his tendency to freeze in battle) earned him a place as camp medic. His closest companion during those long nights was an unusually clever piebald raven who Dietrich trained and named QUASSIR after a fallen brother-in-arms. Despite the wickedness of many of the men he served alongside, Dietrich remained the moral compass for the few men of honor. The WORG CORPS was pitted against the <INSERT EVIL ORGANIZATION>, but their corrupt natures won out and half the Worg Corps betrayed their brothers-in-arms, making an alliance with the <INSERT EVIL ORGANIZATION>. Dietrich and a handful of brothers (most now leading scarred lives in hiding) were the only ones to survive the massacre...

MASTER OF RAVENS (Bard 4): Returning to <INSERT CITY NAME> with no little acclaim and no little notoriety, Dietrich found a placement as Master of Ravens at <INSERT ROYAL FAMILY CASTLE>. While Dietrich was close to the royals, they could keep an eye on him and exploit his growing knowledge of the city's temples, paramilitaries, criminal underworld, and merchant houses. After an unfortunate incident with <INSERT SPOILED PRINCESS NAME>'s necklace, his favored raven QUASSIR flew off to avoid the pie pot...but is sure to show up again (intended animal companion at Ranger 4th-level). Dietrich relies on a rookery of dozens of messenger ravens which deliver information among his scattered contacts and keep him apprised of many secret dealings...

Interesting, yeah 1.5 mil seems perfect. Now I just have to find a lamination service here in the islands and I'll be set. Thanks for posting the results of your footwork Mosaic! :)

Gamer Girrl wrote:

Yes, it can be folded, I'm just not sure how "tight" a crease will work.

It's pretty thin, actually, but very sturdy. At a totally arbitrary guess a piece of paper sandwiched between two sheets of contact paper is about as thick as gluing two sheets of paper together.

Yes, it does stick to itself, very nicely. But as I mentioned, the stick is not so harsh that you can't repair a misaligned piece. Eventually the stick becomes permanent, but it is easy to work with.

I'm going to give contact paper a try over the weekend and see what happens. Thanks Gamer Girrl! :)

Mosaic wrote:

I may go by Lakeshore tomorrow to laminate some posters. I'll try to laminate some taped-together index cards and see how it works. And ask about thickness.

Look forward to hearing how it goes for you. Being in Hawaii we don't have a Lakeshore type store - one of the few mainland amenities we lack, along with In-and-Out. But I think there is a new laminator that I can use (or talk my way into using) as an architecture student.

I'm thinking of doing 2 double-sided conversions: Ancient Forest/Countryside & Fortress/Tournament. I'm planning on using 16 cards from each pack in a 4 x 4 card layout, so the converted flip map should measure 20" by 32" (maybe with an added inch to account for fold lines), comparable to the Paizo flip maps of 24 x 30, and it will fold down to the size of one 8 x 5 card. Ideally this will allow them to be used in various configurations, so you could just use the ruins or the fairy circle if you wanted.

Mosaic wrote:
Just a thought ... use clear packing tape on the back of the cards, then run it through a big laminating machine. If you want it to fold nicely, leave 1/8-1/4" between the cards where you want it to fold (still use clear packing tape on the back, just leave a little gap), and laminate. The laminate ought to be thin enough for it to fold nicely if there isn't anything under that spot. Disclaimer: I'm not actually sure this would work.

Great idea! I'm not sure how packing tape stands up to hot lamination? Since I can't use 3 mil laminate (see below), then I'd have to bring the set up (taped together cards) to the local laminator and that sounds like a headache. I don't even know if it's possible? Still, you've made me curious to want to try it! :)

Mosaic wrote:
As far as laminating goes, I usually go to teacher supply stores (like Lakeshore). They tend to have bign self-serve laminators for like 25¢ per foot. Not sure how thick the laminate is, but it's pretty thin and rolls nicely.

It's the standard 3 mil stuff which rolls great and folds terrible (even when just sticking to itself); hence the proprietary process to make laminated menus/roadmaps.

Gamer Girrl wrote:
Been thinking about it, what about using clear shelf paper? I've used it for lots of different projects, it's definitely sturdy, cleanable with water, and remains sealed once you put it together. Also, you can pretty easily peal it apart until you get it just the way you want it.

I've never worked with contact paper, but it sounds like a good idea. Can it be folded? How thick is it? And can it be stuck to itself?

I learned that the process to create foldable laminated products like menus/maps is patented, so family business laminators & office stores (even chains like kinkos) don't have the technology/legal rights to create such products. At least, that's my understanding.

So I'm going to have to simulate what the pros can do. :)

I found 2 ply black mat board, and I'm thinking of using the thinnest (3 mil is best I can find so far) self-adhesive laminating pouches to stick map pack cards to it. The plan is that where the board folds is where the edge of the lamination meets. If necessary I can lightly score along that edge.

It won't be as clean-looking as I was hoping, but I think it's the cheapest method and one which it will be pretty easy for other folks interested in doing a similar conversion.

lynora wrote:
Well, I'm definitely interested in finding out if you figure out a way to do it. The best I've been able to do is gluing them to posterboard with spray adhesive, but the edges keep curling up.

actually, i can help you on that one, being an architecture student i do tons of spray adhesive to posterboard, however i wouldn't recommend it for something as bulky as the cardstock used for the map packs. i think self-lamination is the way to go with what you're doing.

i've been considering using 2-ply mat board (comes in 32x40"), and lightly scoring it, but it only comes in white and it doesn't have a glossy finish (i think a glossy black would look best).

I haven't been able to find what I'm looking for at any copy centers yet, but I know it's got to be out there. Theoretically it should be possible even with hot lamination as (I'm assuming) the map pack cards aren't printed with an inkjet, so there's no worry about hot lamination destroying the ink.

I talked with a local laminator and he said he can do 3mil on a 48x36" map, but that's still bulky. However, if it's under 25" he could do 1.7 mil, which is way better. Still, it's a single sheet lamination so the folding will be not so great. I'm thinking my best bet is going to be finding a pre-laminated folding sheet (say, all black), and then using self-adhesive lamination to stick the map pack cards to it.

I just think the flip maps are superior to the map packs in everyway, and can't wait to convert mine over.

My quest continues. Wish me luck.

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Most of the people with Korean, or Chinese, ancestry that I know are into the card games but that could just be the people I know and not indicative of a people as a whole.

I hear Jackie Chan has an explanation for why Chinese people are more into card games than rpgs. ;) (sarcasm)

Seriously, one member of our gaming group is Chinese (born in China) and her sorcerer launched 7 fireballs into a crowded room, toasting 8 hill giants. I have never felt so ineffective playing a fighter, but the look on her face was sooo worth it. She likes her fireballs. :)

Are the original hex/grid flip-mats still out there? I just saw a picture of one on-line and they *look* quite attractive.

Gamer Girrl wrote:
LOL! I've gotten so used to so many folks being from Europe, Canada and South America, I don't assume (ass+u+me <G>)a fellow American any more :)

I am a fellow North American. Living in stolen lands just like the rest of us. ;)

Gamer Girrl wrote:
Not sure where you live, but I'd try Kinko's or the like. I've laminated full maps, and cut up things, but I seem to recall they had a "softer" lamination that might work for this.

Hey, we have Kinko's over in Hawaii too. :) I think I know the soft lamination you're talking about, maybe that could work. I was thinking of something like a segmented lamination so you could fold it up; as far as I know Kinko's doesn't do that. I'll double check though.

I want to convert my map packs to flip maps, probably something more akin to a laminated roadmap. Has anyone attempted this?

I was researching pouch laminators, cold lamination presses, and self-adhesive lamination but couldn't find anything on the web.

I think this would be a great way to (a)Keep the map pack in good shape, (b)Make it easy to set up, and (c) Prevent the cardstock panels from sliding around.



Didn't know where else to post this, but I have a question pertaining to all the map packs.

Does anyone know a way to convert a map pack into a flip-mat type map? I'm thinking there must be a printer who can do some type of segmented lamination with the individual map cards?

Andrew Turner wrote:

I will buy these cards as soon as that elusive combine-shipping code gets written... hint-hint

I would love to order these cards now and they would simply be added to whatever subscription ships in October.

Ditto about ordering the cards! I can't wait!

I've been trying to figure out how to print my own trading cards for NPCs for a while and none of the software is good for RPG type cards. Actually, if paizo or another 3rd party were to release a nifty software package for creating your own cards (item/face/place?) I would get that..in...a...heartbeat!

Looks neat! Are there plans to do more NPC packs?

We're transitioning to using trading card albums for treasure with the item cards - awesome! :) I'm wondering if there'll be enough NPC cards down the pipe to do the same thing?