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Everyone seems to be saying about the same things.

1. More reason to pump con highest
2. Too much action cost for not enough gain
3. Low damage
4. Some people want old stuff back

I have some potential suggestions that may work. I'll try to be clear and go subject by subject.

This class is stuck between a slotless caster and a martial. I do not think making this just a strike is gonna work too well tho I do like the idea that each has thier own traits. The idea is to make it it's own unique action almost a cantrip but not quite. Cantrips suffer from accuracy and martials less so. So basically as it levels it gets an accuracy bonus (more then just proficiency) and ends up doing as many die of damage as a normal martial weapon attack does (perhaps a little more idk). I'd make it based on con solely to make con matter more and perhaps to represent their ability to withstand their gate being open or whatever flavor they got. I'd also remove the need for gathering. If spellcasters don't need to "draw" their spell neither does a kineticist tho perhaps they are just trying to make it so it's an equivalent action to drawing. That makes sense but then there would be a feat that normally corresponds to that. Having an aoo is also lame as hell if you are supposed to be able to melee with it so get rid of that altogether as well. It might be fun to add more traits as you level like an inventor or even a monk with feats or just general choices. In case I wasn't clear this would be one action.

Currently just a useless action that everything is based on. Many suggest giving it something like a gun slinger reload. Not against that at all. In fact I'd probably potentially make that like the elemental defense thing that 1e had. Water give some ac bonus against an attack or something. Fire giving a fiery retort to someone first attack at a distance or up close or something. Earth just resist against 1st attack. Air allowing a move to the first creature to become adjacent or something. All based on the element you have gathered. Many have pointed out that 2 action overflows would actually be 3 and still not always that great. Also agree so perhaps gather becomes an action you do beforehand to reduce the action cost later. I'm not 100% sure how this would work but I'll give it a go. So you'd start battle with it gathered and use a big 3 action opener that would cost 2 now so you could actually position yourself beforehand next round you find everything is not positioned the way you want so you gather move and attack or something idk but the point is you'd pay the cost in advance with some of those dead actions. You could only have something gathered or not and you could only use gather to reduce the action cost of an ability once per round just to future proof it i imagine

That was a weird mechanic and some people want it back. I could take it or leave it however I could see it potentially paired with the above. You don't take an action to gather but you reduce your max hp for the day equal to the level of the ability used in conjunction with it. Perhaps you can get some resistance to this at later levels to show how much you've grown and making some of those lower level abilities almost free to use. You could even use the unhieghtened if you wanted. Of course you could only do this sort of thing if you don't have an element gathered.

Substance and shape infusions
I think that's what they were called in 1e. I see they replicated that with alot of those activated abilities. My suggestion is to have these as almost metamagic for your blasts. Add an action to do a thing. Base it entirely off of the normal blast. Perhaps add some damage or something when they are hieghtened idk.these would probably be where you'd make some of hybrid elements and such abilities.

This class has alot of utility options and I love it. The auras and all are great. Just keep in mind all the stuff above about gather and burn I'd think would be ok to apply here as well.

I read someone wanted this and completely forgot about it. In 1e basically got fortification or a chance to ignore crits. It was cool. I could take or leave this but at least it would be something no other class could do without runes in 2e (I think).

When I play a martial I roll dice to determine accuracy and damage. When I play a caster sometimes I just don't roll dice. If this is somewhere in between with no slots I believe it would be fun to sometimes roll an attack vs their save dc. Maybe it doesn't make a difference but it would change them up from the norm.

Not sure if they should or shouldn't interact with focus. Many martials don't but some do. They are kinda slotless casters so maybe. Idk what sorta thing it would do but I'd be down for it.

They get a few bonus feats and flexible feats I'm down for that but I'm kinda torn if they should get more or not. On the one hand their abilities are able to be used infinitely (with random recharges sometimes) and on the other hand caster get alot of options and enough slots to last.

I've mainly been talking about single element kineticist and as such I think based on element you should get a skill for that to further differ yourself from other elements. Not sure how that would work for multi elements but I def want something to make me stand out from the rest that says "hey I'm this element or elements" that being said I do like how they have the feats to where they kinda do the same thing for all elements but uniquely and how Thier are feats that are like "yep def this element and no others". Kinda went off topic there I think.

Good idea. I'd probably just add in that ignore some equal to con mod right into it

Maybe they could use a reaction or reaction feat like some martials get. Perhaps that's what I was talking about with blasts. I know they get some but idk... I feel this class should put use to their reaction more frequently for some reason and the feats feel a bit situational.

Idk a few thoughts. Would love to discuss.

Don't know if it was similar enough to what your talking bout but I had some suggestions


In there

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So the design for psychic seems to be in sustainability and versatility. It gets multiple focus points and after a bit it gets free focus points to amp things.

To me this seems like a spiritual successor to Psion. To me a psychic should be the masters of versatility with little choices. They should be able to sustain for long periods. They should be good at mind and telekinetic combat.

So this current design bothers me. Im not taking a look at the proficiencies and such. What I'm looking at are class features. I agree with what everyone is saying by in all. So here's a few ideas that I think follow Thier approach while satisfying my vision.

Devs if this gets traction please take heed. Note I'm not great at balance. I'll give my general ideas.

To start you are given 2 choices. Conscious and unconcious mind. You are given a psyche and multiple focus points easily recoverable

Let's start with unconcious mind. This gives stat a benifit (that I can't tell is a benifit) and a drawback. I'm good with drawback and the stat u use. Sure keep them. I'm even ok with the (kinda) benifit. What I'm not ok with is that it's barely a benifit (if at all) so let's add some stuff. First we add it's own special psyche (which are more like barb rages now) a single unique cantrips with unique amps (something combat related explore and utility) you also gain a focus point and power. It gives you a general use amp and spells. Seems like a lot I know but please bare with me.

Now conscious mind. This is more like your school of magic. This also gives many of the same things as above but remove the barely a benifit and choosing your stat. So what we are left with is a psych a special cantrip a general use amp and fp and power and spells

Ok now to cover the psyche amps and such.

Psyche- more like mental rages. Remove the requirements to meet. Keep a drawback but make it do something passively and actively (maybe another type of amp)

Amps- let them be used every round but like only one. Let them be applied to spells with a possible cost (like a fp).

Keep the same number of spells but say you can pick 2 signature spells per level. Maybe allow you to recover a spell slot with a focus point over 10min or something idk but like I said earlier it's about sustainability and versitility.

With these options you really are constantly making choices on your turn. Do I accept a drawback? What do I amp? Should I use a focus point?

At least that's how I see it.

That is basically what amp is right?

I know that it's better then a metamagic cause no action cost and I also know that the psychic gets more use of fp then any other class (sofar) but it seems a bit off in power for fp and just about as strong as a metamagic in general. Please let me know if I'm wrong about that.

It's almost like since you can have so many that they don't do that much but then they lowered the amount of spells that they get to almost non existance. If I'm wrong let me know but why not let every spell they get be a signature spell and maybe get some general boost for using any slot just to make Thier spells feel worth doing then saving and not make Thier cantrips feel like the only thing going for them.

Also... What's the deal with the potential penalties when your hot with a status effect? What does that balance?

Idk it feels mostly right but dam.

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Tavaro Evanis wrote:
I really like the concept of a rune interacting with magical abilities. I would employ this cantrip. Overall, I think cantrips would get a huge buff simply by making them 1 action + flourish. Cantrips are thematically supposed to be lesser magic, or essentially "tricks".

I feel your right on them being magical tricks and all tho I think I disagree on them taking less actions even with flourish trait. Many current class specific cantrips are single action and many are barely worth taking even that action. Either they would have to get buffed to the improved cantrip level or the normal cantrips would have to be debuffed to class cantrip levels.

The idea tho is solid even if I can't make any observations in balance.

There definitely needs to be an accuracy boost for spell attacks and heck even saves

Sorry Bout formatting. Did this a while ago and lost some files so had to redo and I think the redo is better. Let me know what you think. The goal was to allow more versatility in grapples and enabling grappling to be performed easier without eating up most of a turn and allow 2+ enemies to be grappled more easily.

Feats also available to grappler
Whirling throw
Sleeper hold

Grappler dedication lvl 2
Traits: archetype dedication move
Prereq: trained athletics
Benifit: you may now take the stride action while grappling an opponent of your choice and bring them with you. When you do this roll athletics vs thier fortitude save. This counts for maintaining

Critical success: you may move 15ft with opponent
Success: you may move 10ft with opponent
Fail: you may not move
Crit fail: the opponent escapes

As your proficiency in athletics rise so too does the distance you can move on a successful grapple check. You may not move more than your speed. Expert +5ft
Master+10ft legendary+15ft. This movement does not provoke for your opponent.

Body block lvl 4 1action
Traits: archetype
Prereq: shield prof grappler dedication
Benifit: Make an athletics check vs fortitude dc against an opponent you are grappling. While you have this opponent grappled you are treated as if you had raised a shield. That opponent is also treated as if you had maintained a grapple.

Critical success: the opponent is flat-footed
Success: you gain benefits of raise shield
Critical fail: you become flatfooted

Meat shield lvl 6 1 reaction
Traits: archetype
Prereq: body block
Trigger: When you would take damage from a physical attack and have used body block during your turn
Benifit: The opponent you chose for body block rolls a fortitude save vs your athletics dc. On a failure the opponent takes half your level in damage and no other effect of the triggering attack before applying weaknesses or resistances. You gain resist equal to half your level.

Critical success: no damage and no resistance
Success: half damage and half resist
Failure: full damage
Crit fail: double damage and double resist

King of the hill level 10 1 reaction
Traits: archetype
Prereq: grappler dedication
Trigger: successfully maintain a grapple
Benifit: you may roll an athletics check vs fortitude dc of a different opponent to grab or maintain a grapple

Improved whirling throw level 12
2 actions
Traits: archetype attack
Prereq: grappler dedication whirling throw titan wrestler
Benifit: you no longer take the size penalties when you use this feat. In addition if you succeed you may choose a second target in range of the result. That opponent makes a reflex save vs your class dc. If they fail they take the same effect as the thrown opponent.

Submission level 14 1 actions
Traits archetype attack press
Prereq: sleeper hold grappler dedication
Benifit: choose an opponent you are currently grappling. Roll an athletics vs fortitude dc. If successful this is treated as maintaining the grapple on that opponent.

Critical success: the opponent gains a condition 2 of your choice either enfeebled sickened clumsy or stupified
Success: same as critical but the condition value is 1
Critical failure: the opponent gets free of the grapple

King of the mountain lvl 16
Traits: archetype
Prereq: king of the hill grappler dedication
Benifit: you now get a free use of king of the hill reaction per round

General feats

Savage stance lvl 8
Traits: multiclass general
Prereq: 1st level monk stance, animal instict specialization
Benifit: when you rage using your animal instict specialization you treat all of your unarmed attacks as if they were the attack you received from animal instinct. Your animal instict unarmed attack gains the nonlethal trait.

When you are in a stance that only allows a single type of unarmed attack you may make any unarmed attack you have available.

Barbarian feat
Get over here lvl 6 1 action
Traits attack flourish
Requirements: a weapon with grapple tether and thrown traits or reach and grapple traits
Benifit: if you currently have a target grappled with a weapon that meet the requirements and they are not next to you roll an athletics check vs thier fort dc. On a success you deal weapon damage and are considered to have maintained the grapple.

Crit success: double damage and pulled 10ft closer
Success: deals damage and pulled 5ft closer
Fail: half damage not pulled
Crit fail: no longer grappled

Monk feats
Alligator stance lvl 1 1 action
Traits: stance
Benefit: you take a stance trailing leg far back with arms high and low slightly forward parallel or slightly out to your sides.
While in this stance, the only Strikes you can make are gator snap unarmed attacks. These deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage; are in the brawling group; and have the trip, deadly 1d8, grapple, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. While you are in alligator Stance, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks to swim, and if you roll a success on an Athletics check to swim, you get a critical success instead.

Alligator death roll level 6 2 actions
Traits attack flourish
Reqiurements: grappling an opponent
Roll an athletics check vs the opponents fort dc. On a success the roll your unarmed strike damage the opponent is proned and takes persistant bludgeoning damage equal the number of dice your unarmed strike damage does plus your str mod until the grapple is broken. This is considered maintaining the grapple on that opponent

Strong grip lvl 4
Benifit: when you make a grapple attempt and would take a multiple attack penalty you instead take a -4 penalty instead of a -5 penalty to your grapple check.

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Idk how popular this idea will be but here it goes.

Before I get into the idea in detail let me put in a few ideas from previous classes for comparison.
The swashbuckler has a feature that is either on or off.

The oracle has a feature that is always on which is a curse. The curse comes with some advantages and disadvantages. The advantages and disadvantages become worse that you can toggle on and off. They mainly use focus spells and 10 min refocus to do that.

Barbarian has an on and off mechanic with rage. It has advantages and disadvantages.

Various stances are either on or off.

Spells themselves are on or off.

My idea is like this. Your innovation is either stable or unstable. When you are stable things work perfectly. When unstable using actions with the unstable quality will have a diffrent effect with advantage and disadvantage.This could even be in stages I suppose and just like every condition it will be numerically tracked (unstable 1 unstable 2 unstable 3). Regardless of what you do it still has an effect. The next part may sound disagreeable but hear me out. The inventor should have an action that reduces or removes the condition and when he uses it it should have a benifit besides just reducing or removing it (like with the companion could get temp hp). Make him feel rewarded somewhat. You could keep a check to get things to work if you want but this would be to see the severity of the malfunction not nessarily to avoid the malfunction. Each feat would have thier own malfunctions and such. If using the unstable increasing condition this might be how you determine the level of the condition or to determine the flat dice roll. Whatever the case the end result should be that they still get to take an action that may be detrimental to them as well. The effects of feats should probably be toned up or down to reflect this change. I also believe that intelligence should play a bigger factor in the class like maybe (I know this won't go over well) as how they determine thier acceracy for innovation attacks and feats. This kinda feels like they would have already seen what's coming through calculations tho maybe not the power to really follow through (they skip all exercise if they can lol). I also think the idea behind inventor kinda reflect a sort of wild magic sorta or wilder (psionics). Maybe int could add to flat check (you thought it through real good).

This to me kinda represents how one could use a malfunction to an advantage or at least represent that even though it is malfunctioning that the inventor still can get some use out of it. The repair is kinda like power surge or something like that. I opperate machinery and sometimes you can't get the maintenance guy fast enough so come up with work arounds to meet production. I can often do this in less then 6 seconds. I feel like the inventor should be better then I am at that since I'm just an amateur and they are more like experts especially with something they made themselves. The inventor may be a tad reckless but it's a calculated risk.

I also feel that this is closer to the design philosophy that came before with the rest of the classes. I say look at the oracle as possibly closest resemblance tho others may apply as well. You are either under a condition or your not wether self inflicted or otherwise.

I probably rambled and didn't get the point across so apologies. I don't have hard numbers or anything so again apologies. I probably should have started a new thread

Trying to get my dm to approve and so far this is what he approved of. I'll get a link for my first attempt later.btw does anyone have any feats designed with grapples in mind.

Body block

1 action
Prereq: master in athletics
You take cover behind the opponent grabbed

You manuver an enemy in your grasp into oncoming damage. Make an athletics check against an opponent you have grabbed vs fort dc. If successful you gain the benifit and drawbacks of raising a tower shield if same size as you a regular shield if smaller. This is treated as maintaining a grapple.

1 action
Take cover (for clarity sake)

Meat shield
Prereq: body block
When you take damage, and have a creature grabbed using the body block feat, you may put them in front of the damage and sparing you some. Roll an athletics check vs the creature's fort dc.

Critical success: the creature takes your level in damage (not to exceed the original damage dealt by the triggering effect) and you reduce the damage the same amount
Success: target takes half your level in damage (not to exceed the original damage dealt by the triggering effect) and you reduce the damage by the same amount.
Crit fail: the grab ends

Drag skill feat 5th
Prereq: expert in athletics
Traits: skill
You gain the drag action.
As you gain mastery in athletics the distance you can move increases. At master you can move 5ft further and at legendary you can move 10ft further. When you use the drag action you are considered to have made a successful grapple check

Drag 1 action
Traits: attack move
Prereq: must have someone grabbed already

You drag your foe with you as you move. Attempt a athletics check against an opponent you have grabbed fort DC.

Critical Success Your foe dragged with you. You both move up to 10 feet in the same direction, remaining adjacent to one another. Your movement doesn't trigger reactions from the target (and the target's movement doesn't trigger reactions because it's forced movement).
Success As critical success, but you both move only 5 feet.
Failure The foe doesn't follow your steps. You can move 5 feet if you choose, but this movement triggers reactions normally.
Critical Failure You stumble, falling prone in your space.

Not sure of levels but body block and meat shield would be on classes that already support grappling already

This is first try link https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43814?Grapple-feats

Alright grim could you format drag to be a skill feat of 5th level (seems most are odd level despite being gained at even levels)

I think body block would be good for 8th maybe only because it seems like it may be stronger then whirling throw

Yeah that's what I suspected and I'm guessing I can't get the rage specialization either.

I have done a few searches and can't find anything.

I have a dual class shark barbarian and gorrilla stance monk. I just want to figure out how they interact or can work together. Going for a grappler build.

Did not expect such an enthusiastic response. Thank you. I don't know how to format them properly in either website so thank you again. Gonna wait for a few more responses before I edit but seems like they are someplace between level four and ten so far. Personally I think drag should be a skill feat since it adds a new use of athletics more or less. Id like these to be compatible with furious grab and crushing grab but not sure how the power level would be effected or if it's even possible. What do people think of a scaling effect based on skill rank in athletics to gradually increase the effects? I'd like these not to lose usefulness as you gain levels.

Some background on why I made these. First I love grapplers and grappling has lost alot of power over the editions so kinda wanna bring some of the power back.

Second I'm currently in a game that is using the dual class variant in which I'm using animal barbarian/monk and of course a grapple specialist

I recently put some feats on gitpg forums with little luck. Here is a link. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?621316-Pathfinder-2e-grapple-fea ts