ciretose wrote:
2. Diplomacy does what the skill entry says it does, and nothing more. It does not improve your personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conf licts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem. That isn't the same as making you charming, personally magnetic, a born leader and beautiful.
If anyone would like to refute the two above statements, feel free.
If you want to put forth your position, feel free and if I disagree with you we can have a debate about that.
That isn't what is happening.
First, I'll take a shot at refuting statement 2. I could be wrong, but you seem to be saying that the skill does only what the desctiption says. I'd like to copy-and-paste for you a bit from page 87 of the CBR, under "Skill Descriptions":
"This section describes each skill, including common uses and typical modifiers. Characters can sometimes use skills for purposes other than those noted here, at the GM’s discretion."
It says "Common Uses", not all uses.
Second, I'll point out that most interactions, social or combat, aren't Stat based but skill based. BAB and saves are just another type of skill, modified by a stat.
You don't make a Srength roll for an attack, you make an attack roll modified by your BAB (skill and training with weapons) and other factors. You don't make a will save with just Wisdom, you make it with Wisdom plus base Will save (your practice steeling your mind) plus other factors.
If all stats had an initial penalty to world interactions regardless if a skill allows it, how would that affect items?
Strength - should characters have to make checks every round to make sure they can keep holding their weapon? Should a high Strength reduce Dex, as all that muscle gets in the way of agility?
Dexterity - Should low Dex determine how complex a lock they can undo with Disable Device regardless of ranks, or only allow them to make Reflex saves against spells up to a certain level?
Constitution - Should Con determine a hard limit to what level of spell they can resist with a Fort save, or how long each sentence is?(After all, Con does control how long you can hold your breath, and therefore lung capacity.)
Intelligence - Should this affect what you can craft, regardless of how many ranks you put in a craft skill? Or should it be a hard limit to what you can know, regardless of the results of a knowledge check?
Wisdom - Should this be a hard limit on what level spell a character can resist with a will save, or what size of an object can be noticed regardless of a perception check?
I realize these are extreme, but they're everyday interactions the same as walking into a bar/palace/merchant. If one stat is being penalized because one facet of its interaction can be overcome with training, shouldn't all stats? Additionally, why is a stat defined as a "mental" ability score being used for first impressions? (If you're wondering why I'm saying it's a mental score, check out the "Headband of Mental Prowess" or the "Headband of Mental Superiority".) Why isn't Strentgh, Dexterity or Constitution being used instead, since they are physical scores?
My point is that stats are the starting point, not the definition of a characters capabilities. If they were, there'd be no need for skills. A low Cha character with ranks in Diplomacy might have really good fashion sense and make a great first impression, just like a character with a 7 strength and ranks in climb can probaly out-climb the 24-strength guy, or how the 7 Intelligence fighter with points in Knowledge (The Planes) will know more about the other planes of existance than the Wizard with the 24 Intelligence.
