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Vortexius wrote:

I haven't seen many optimized builds that utilize the "fighting while under 0 HP" Half-Orc feats, so I think this would be both interesting and fun to play. Thoughts?

Vortexius wrote:

I think you need to retake English because that's not what "Thoughts?" was modifying in my question. I also JUST SAID that my question was whether the build would be interesting to play, which cavernshark DID NOT ANSWER, but apparently me telling you to actually read the posts is not going to make you read them before replying. You've turned this thread into an off-topic sewage pile, so please never respond to anything I post again.

You said, I haven't seen these builds, so I thought it would be fun to make one. Thoughts?

If you wanted thoughts on your build, specifically of "whether the build would be interesting to play" It would have been more helpful to pose that question then hide it with the question you did ask, "Thoughts?"

cavernshark says, Hey I have an alchemist now so here is where I'm coming from with my perspective.
Then he says.

cavernshark wrote:

As I read your build though, I can't help but feel that you've got two extremes. On one hand, you've got feats that really seem like you want to be up in enemies' faces (the tanky aspect and all the below-0 feats) but then you also have selected stats that heavily emphasize bombs and range (crossbow). So I think you'll find that either you're rarely getting hit so the tank stuff doesn't get a chance to kick in, or you'll have a hard time effectively lobbing bombs or shooting in melee if you are up in that range. Also, given that so much of your build is focused on defense, it might be hard to actually draw enemy attention if you are at range.

Bolded are his thoughts to the experience of playing your build. Prior to that is his analysis of your build. he's saying that the tankyness either doesn't matter or you'll have a hard time being useful in melee. Making this build less desirable.

How is...

"I thought it would be fun to make one"

lv4

20 Point Buy
Str: 10
Dex: 16 (15+1) I'm assuming here since it makes a nice number and you didn't say.
Con: 16
Int: 18 (14+2+2headband?)
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

1: Ferocious Resolve
2: Tumor Familiar (Hedgehog for +2 Will) You should specify that this should be a Guardian Familiar from the Familiar Folio as it's basically free AC and HP if you did.
3: Extra Discovery: Tanglefoot Bomb
4: Lingering Spirit

37 HP, 17 AC, attacks crossbow +6 1d8 as a full round. Bomb +6 2d6+4 DC 18(not bad) 8 per day. -26 is dead total of 63.

enemy is CR 4 monster creation table
Hit Points 40 Armor Class 17 High Attack 8 Average Damage 16

Your DPR with crosbow is too low to matter now
DPR 8 rounds with bomb against AC 12 = 8.25
his is 9.6 against you. Lower with more buffs. He'd need to hit four or five rounds and do average or more damage to have Ferocious Resolve do anything, and Lingering spirit needs 6 or 7 to matter.

boss enemy is CR 6 monster creation table
Hit Points 70 Armor Class 19 High Attack 12 Average Damage 25

Your DPR with crosbow is too low to matter now
DPR 8 rounds with bomb against AC 12 = 8.25
his is 20 against you. Lower if you're AC gets higher than 17 like you listed.

one solid hit when you're under 0 still puts you to dead with these numbers. So again, Ferocious Resolve is more likely to get you killed than not.

"And you didn't say"

Vortexius wrote:

"The question you posed in your OP" "The reason you don't see much fighting under zero"

I never asked why you don't see fighting under zero, so when you started saying it wasn't very...

Vortexius wrote:

I haven't seen many optimized builds that utilize the "fighting while under 0 HP" Half-Orc feats,... Thoughts?

I gave you thoughts about why you haven't seen many optimized builds that utilize the "fighting while under 0 HP" Half-Orc feats.

Chess Pwn wrote:

the reason you don't see much "fighting under 0" is because you DIE so easy at that level. The highest I've seen is something like die at -34 damage. Which when you reach the level that you have that it's like 1 hit does 30 damage. at low levels it's the same, if you're under 0 you're like 1 hit away from DEAD.

AND

Chess Pwn wrote:

I gave you the reason why you don't see them. Also you have to get that low for anything that works under 0 to be of any use.

So if there is really is anyone who is having trouble understanding what is written it would be yourself. As you didn't specify you were wanting only comments on your build I gave my thoughts on the sentence you were asking people's thoughts about.

Also cavernshark was able to give you "thoughts" about your build specifically. And I am currently doing so.

EDIT: also a new thread isn't going to do anything different for you. At the worse it was a few comment sidetrack.

I think you need to retake English because that's not what "Thoughts?" was modifying in my question. I also JUST SAID that my question was whether the build would be interesting to play, which cavernshark DID NOT ANSWER, but apparently me telling you to actually read the posts is not going to make you read them before replying. Please never respond to anything I post again.

B) I do know the what the abilities do, I went around looking to do this kind of build myself.

Vortexius wrote:

I haven't seen many optimized builds that utilize the "fighting while under 0 HP" Half-Orc feats

Chess Pwn wrote:

the reason you don't see much "fighting under 0" is because you DIE so easy at that level. The highest I've seen is something like die at -34 damage. Which when you reach the level that you have that it's like 1 hit does 30 damage. at low levels it's the same, if you're under 0 you're like 1 hit away from DEAD.

Vortexius wrote:

Stuff about your build

Chess Pwn wrote:

I gave you the reason why you don't see them. Also you have to get that low for anything that works under 0 to be of any use. yeah you have some things in place that maybe could keep you alive. but I'm curious how it'd actually play out.

So to clarify, the only things I've said about your build specifically is, "yeah you have some things in place that maybe could keep you alive. but I'm curious how it'd actually play out."

Because things on paper sometimes don't play out like we'd expect them to. Example, my friend was a GM, made this "unkillable fighter" Ursmum the undying. He died in two full attacks. first took him low, second killed him. He never got to use his <0 abilities. It wasn't as optimal as yours, but it showed that it's hard to make work.

So you've completely misunderstood my multiple attempts at me saying I wasn't addressing your build but the question you posed in your OP.

But since you feel I've been addressing your specific build, I will now (probably taking many hours) to go through your level examples to show how it maybe wouldn't play out like you're thinking it would and why people don't go this route (at least my guesses as to why).

"The question you posed in your OP" "The reason you don't see much fighting under zero"

I never asked why you don't see fighting under zero, so when you started saying it wasn't very effective I obviously thought you were referring to my build. I asked if you thought this would be interesting to play, and no one so far has actually answered me. I'll probably just start another post because no one responding to this one knows how to read.

I gave you the reason why you don't see them. Also you have to get that low for anything that works under 0 to be of any use. yeah you have some things in place that maybe could keep you alive. but I'm curious how it'd actually play out.

I'm not sure if:

If A, I don't see why you're even commenting if you're just going to say "this doesn't work" without a valid reason why and offering an alternative.

If B, please look up the descriptions of the abilities you don't know before commenting about them.

Vortexius wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Linkified

Thank you, I'm not familiar with posting on the forums, even though I read them often.

In the editor there's line at the bottom that says "How to format your text" with the button "show"

Now the reason you don't see much "fighting under 0" is because you DIE so easy at that level. The highest I've seen is something like die at -34 damage. Which when you reach the level that you have that it's like 1 hit does 30 damage. at low levels it's the same, if you're under 0 you're like 1 hit away from DEAD.

If you're at low HP and decide to get one more attack in before healing yourself next turn, and then an enemy gets max damage and puts you at -1, you're normally screwed. With this build, you can afford to take risks like that to help your allies. You also don't fall prone every time you go under. This build is meant to be effective when played at all levels, and gets more healing abilities and immunities to cope with higher level monsters as it grows. If a monster hits you for 30, you can reduce or negate it completely with Die for Your Master and use Spontaneous Healing to deal with whatever is left.

Linkified

Thank you, I'm not familiar with posting on the forums, even though I read them often.

I decided to make an Alchemist that was as tanky as possible while still being effective in combat. This was the result:

The Undying Alchemist

I haven't seen many optimized builds that utilize the "fighting while under 0 HP" Half-Orc feats, so I think this would be both interesting and fun to play. Thoughts?