VictorFafnir's page

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

The problem is your talk about spells and versatility and also using them to spellstrike to keep up with a fighter. Can't have it both ways, if magus is spellstriking for damage he isn't use them for other stuff, and they only have 4. The studious spells are useful, but much lower level and only 2 of them a day.

Magus already keeps up with a Fighter pretty well spellstriking with only cantrips. Your occasional slot spellstrike is less of a regular occurrence and more of your trump card. There when you need to deal that extra bunch of damage.

I'll agree that a Magus will be stretched by a long adventuring day (4 or more encounters) much faster than your other martials who aren't so dependent on a limited resource, but in a pretty common 3 or less combat adventuring day? The Magus has plenty of slots to keep up all day in my experience. And that is without accounting for accessory slots like Endless Grimoire or Ring of Wizardry which just help the Magus be more frivolous with their casting.

I tend to prepare my slots with mostly utility or defensive spells, then use Standby Spell to allow myself the opportunity to trade one of those slots in for a Shocking Grasp at need. Being a Martial who can fly on command at 7th level is really nice. Being a Martial who can cast Haste on themselves at 5th is also really nice.

Versatility doesn't mean that someone is capable of everything at all times. It is the ability to adapt at need to many functions. Arcane Spells are the versatility list, and Magus can pad their spellbook with as many utility and defensive spells as they'd like, just like a Wizard, and prepare them when they think they will need them.

And nothing I've read so far in this thread has convinced me that Spellstrike provoking does anything to break the most important part of Magus to me: It doesn't make it not fun to play. It hasn't made me second guess my choices with either of my current Magus builds, and it hasn't stopped me from wanting to build...

Only because it doesn't botter you doesn't mean it doesn't botter most people in this threat, there are multiple users that expressed their opinion that the would like for spellstrike provking AoO to be gone, or it quite bothers them that it exist.

For I haven't seen an actually good comment for spellstrike to still provoke AoO if it bothers that much, people with good reasons

I would like you to explain to me how magus keep up with fighter since I have seen graph and explanation of other people better than me that yes magus will deal more dmg with 1 of his 2 highest lvl shocking grasp than a fighter by little and then get back behind him and other martials when using cantrip. You complained that you read that magus deal less dmg than a fighter, but now you constantly say fighter keeps up with magus while having spells that doesn't deal DMG without actually proving it in any other way, while also complained that people who say magus doesn't keep up with fighter are using white room and actual play is not white room, but when I provided 2 actions per turn to attack average per your adventuring day you said that limiting magus to only 2 actions per turn is discriminatory because of how fighter and ranger works, but I suppose that in combat you will rarely be ably to regularly dedicate 3 actions for attacking, since sometimes you can actually be only left with 1, the reasons I already explained, that would mean magus is in the majority of cases left spellcasting every other turn.

If you honestly think that it is fun playing around AoO and not using your main feature that your class is based around, then go and play out some encounters with it, because magus isn't champion nor monk nor investigator his entire stick is striking and using spells to deal dmg or buff himself.
And currently magus with cantrip spellstrike is kinda not that good about it even if he cast his highest spell slot in the long run will not be that significant.

You'll still have a decent amount of options even when you're not spellstriking. A good buff spell will go a long way to help your damage output against aoo creatures.

Options? Yes.

Aristophanes wrote:

First of all, let me say that I don't have a dog in the hunt. I'm not particularly interested in playing a Magus. But I have read the entire thread, and I have a question for those who think spellstrike should provoke: Do you believe if it didn't, that the Magus would be too strong? Or are you afraid it might set a bad precedent regarding spell casting and AsoO?

I guess I just haven't yet seen a convincing argument in favor of keeping provoking.

Partially I do think it would elevate Magus a bit too high honestly. I suppose there is a case to be made that the melee spellcaster should have some defense against AoO, that I won't dispute. And I don't think that Steady Spellcasting is a good enough option. But I don't think that it should be baked into the class by default. To me, Spellstrike is plenty strong enough.

I just don't see the big deal about AoO's. At the highest rates given as evidence in the thread, not even 40% of enemies in a given AP have it. In my experience, if there is a foe who has a decent shot at getting that crit on their AoO, it's probably a high level single threat boss, or at least there won't be that many other enemies about. And if that is the case, their attention will be spread between the Magus and the rest of the Party. It is hardly ever a 1v1 affair. Sometimes the Magus will catch the bad end of the stick. But if that's the case, the rest of the party will be free to do what they are doing.

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

You name it. Problem is magus is doing miserable damage without spellstrike once you exhaust the focus abilities (like round 2) so you NEED spellstrike to do decent damage. If Magus's damage game when he wasn't spellstriking was better it might be less of an issue.

Miserable Damage? A Magus is still a martial, and can still swing their weapon. Arcane Cascade is an extra 1-3 damage that an equivalent fighter can't get. They have easy access to self buffs like Draw the Lightning and True Strike.

I have no complaints...

I mean, I have wrote it before but I don't know if I got ignored.

Second. Arcane cascade dmg is pitfull in terms of dmg and action economy of magus, sure fighter might not get that +1 to dmg, but they get crits and not missing, other classes get flurry of blows or hunter's mark, Even with this at best you will be a bit behind in dmg than a mediocre/avarage striker (while risking getting hit in the face if enemy have AoO) and without it you are worse fighter, allowing your cantrips to be used as part of melee strike is not a buff since cantrips are worse than just striking for every other class, in span of 2 turns while recharging magus will be behind every other martial, even their spell slots spellstrike aren't that great.

Third, draw the lightning requires your fight to last at least 6-7 rounds and you spellstriking every turn to match the dmg output of let's say shocking grasp, while it last 10 turns, It is not optimal, true strike is true strike.. it is better option that most of your spells but it is bounded to 1st lvl spellslot so anyone with arcane spellcasting archetype and 2 feats will get as much use of it as magus.

I wouldn't say that it means you can't use Spellstrike. You just may be punished for it, assuming the enemy still has their reaction and you are in their melee range when you make the strike. In the same way that a ranged character would be punished for making a ranged attack in the same circumstances.

It is not exactly about disrupting your spell, sure it is a threat for your limited slots and when it happens it usually will be done by boss that can crit you on 15-16, and this is the kind of monster you want to use your biggest guns on.

But you are you being punished for? For using your core class feature?
If you are using a bow and an enemy got close to you then either you or your team made a mistake, you let it happen, or your enemy tricked you or use some other method to get close (he knew who to focus and exploit weakness) either way you are not supposed to be this close to an enemy with a bow, because the bow wasn't designed for it.

But magus is supposed to be up close unless you are starlit span subclass,
for exactly what are you being punished for, you have less hp and less ac than a fighter or a ranger, and you are using your core class feature that is designed to be played this close to an enemy. Magus already have builded in limitation in terms of action economy and other factors,not to mention enemies getting anti melee abilities grapple and knockdowns later on, also AoO is getting more common as you go with lvls. You may think it wasn't that bad but when in almost every fight there are at least a few (or some) of them or in every other fight every enemy has it, then this limitation becomes a problem because you give them free opportunity to attack you for playing your class, magus maybe not squishy like a wizard or sorcerer, but he also isn't tanky like champion or fighter/ranger, blows will hurt him more than other's martials. At least in my experience.

That being said, I do feel like this issue is being slightly over blown. Even in campaigns where there are a higher than normal number of AoO like reactions, there will be targets the Magus can focus on safely. For me, Spellstrike provoking sucks, and I would rather it didn't, but it doesn't break the class in any real way. It just isn't that big of a deal most of the time.

It may not happen often, but when it does, it will hit you like a train.

Being 8hp medium armor magus against AoO that can reach you while you cast spell strike means you will either have to
A - If you are lucky to have left some self buffing spells left that work only on the caster like draw the lightning casted before hand and fight will last min 10 rounds, you are good. (if they are immune or resistant to lightning, you are s@~~ out of luck)
B - Suck it up and get potential hit at your face with 12 con and 8 class hp if you decided to have high int.
C - Pray that someone in your party will burn enemy reaction
D - Don't do something that your entire class is build around, since half of your feats require or want you to spellstrike making you a worse fighter or any other martial since all you have left are normal strikes or/and your buffs if you managed to cast any on yourself
E - Attack from distance with your cantrips or spells(if any) while having at least -1 mod to attack with your spells than other casters(and those casters already have problem with hitting stuff with spells)

All the options above suck. It's like telling rogue 30% of the time you can't deal precision dmg to an enemy unless he want to provoke AoO and potentially cancel his attack, or palladin that they can't use their reaction on 30% of enemy'es strikes (but they at least have legendary proficiency in heavy armor and more hp than you).

Not to mention someone already proposed that someone who want's to play magus could be better of playing summoner or fighter/magus archetype since strike + EA can deal more dmg than gouging claw spellstrike early to mid game and fighter even if once per fight can deal more DMG than you, even if you spend all your spell slots on (eg) shocking grasp fighter DMG will be a bit lower and will eventually surpass you pretty fast and won't provoke AoO every turn. My counterpoint is that you can cast self buffs that only works on the caster like draw the lightning giving you additional 1d12, but with magus archetype fighter will eventually get them, the only hope is that 7th lvl spell will be good enough.

It may not be the best comparison since fighter is a fighter, but fighter shouldn't be better at doing other class job like champion reaction, ranger hunter's edge or rogue sneak attack

VictorFafnir wrote:

Good thing that recharging your spellstrike don't trigger AoO.

Oh wait, it does if you are using any focus spell from your class feats

They have all just the verbal trait, and because so they can't trigger any AoO.

Those granted from your hybrid studies? Yes, but force fang and others you get from class feats does trigger AoO

I would also like to have choice between str/dex/int as primaly, even having 12 or 14 in int is not good option, You are better of with str/dex, and then full con.

Even investigator have better use of int in his melee attack rolls than magus.

Add int to magus dmg while using spell strike or attack roll to hit and take away his weapon mastery or something

Okey so quick list:
Currently if you are not taking archetype into fighter you are kindas screw.

- More 1 action cantrips and spells

- Let have magus some kinds of bonus when having high int, its not usefull at all and honestly I can see people just ignoring it to be full fighter as you can get cricticals easier.

- Spell strike, either be it part of casting spell or let us deliver spells by weapon attack roll, and let us hold it for few rounds

- Give use 2/2/2 system or 3/3. 2/2 can work but it is kinda pain in the ass, limiting our spell, limiting whenever we can cast boost spells on ourself like haste without feats, Temperans idea with spell strike is nice. It just feels like they should have a little bit more spells but at the same time not being a full or half caster. Current idea with limited spells that grow in power is good.

- Synthesis, make it a little bit powerfull and give them some kind of lvl progression (not much like little bust, sustning steel being able to hold his tm hp for 1 or more rounds,) Rebuild shooting star, currently taking archetype is better than being magus and shooting star synthesis)
Lets think about adding 2 more synthesis, martial changing arcane fist to synthesis, and raise a thome because currently it either you have to wait to 2nd lvl to fist someone or you don't use it because none of synthesis have free hand for tome and usage of raise a tome.

- Lvl Progression, magus have only 4 spells and some good feats, but his on his own he doesn't rly have anything on his own, that's why progression synthesis can be nice, and will not make class overpower.

- Rising shield, This one is special because none of synthesis can rly benefit out of it, i suggest making it new synthesis like in
"Recommended Adjustments for the Magus" where where magus can also access wands, rods, scrolls etc.

- Magus potency, progression is slow but I don't know if it can even be combined with already enchanted weapon so on 5th lvl you can have weapon +1 and add amgic potency making it +2, maybe combine it with runic impression like Temparans suggested but anyway.

- Magus having spell mastery 6 lvls after weapon mastery, its rly too late, at last make it 4 lvls or something. Double Spellstrike, yea... lets just change it. Also if magus will be martial focused class let us have 1st lvl feat.

- Feats,
Raise tome and Arcane fists are better of as synthesis, A lot of players love those ideas but they need to be avaliable for 1st lvl, Aracne fist can get away first 1st lvl feat but raise tome is idea that can be expanded

Spirit sheat - it would be nice if this wouldnt be one of 3 feats that is usable only by slide casting, and letting us hold to 2 bulk or more, it is okay that you can draw from it as part of casting but I would like to see it being drawn as part of attack with weapon that discharge your striking spell, (and letting us use spell strike on weapons in spirit sheats) this way when we hold striking spell it still work

Bspell Strikers - Very nice

Steady Spellcasting - Don't rly have solution but I would like it to be on 2nd lvl or be a bit better.

Striker's scroll - Its nice if you want to go with archetype or have a lot of spells, its 1 free spell at cost of gold or many in form of arrows can be usefull with a lot of low lvl spells.

Capture spell - Is good, it would be nice to know what spell is being casted at us (in some fort of spell check according to spell) But I guess it would make it kinda overpower, but considering it only work with slide casting.

Comet spell - Very cool idea, I would only at explotion around target (5 or 10ft) that doesn't affect said target.

Healer's Steel - Very nice feat that I love.

Portal Slide - Even if portal is sligthly usefull in some situation it still need to be improved or remaked IMO

Preternatural parry - Yet another feat that currently only works for Slide casting synthesis or arcane fist, is that 4 if I count correctly ? Its of course good option and solid feat but let other synthesis get some love :(

After reading this it feels like it is kinda gathered knowledge and potential improvments from this forum that we all want. You could say this post speak for most of us, and I belive it will be good source of feedback for devs. Especailly that you spend more than one or two fights as a magus also having 2 other characters to compare to. My experience was kinda the same, especially with higher lvl oponents. Good job !

Spell strike should be improved version of Eldritch Shot in 2 actions and then letting us decide whenever we want to attack on the same turn or afterwards (withing few rounds).
I personally think that 2 taxes of magus needs to go to make it playable and some low lvl feats redesign (with maybe 1 or 2 higher) together with some changes with synthesis of shooting star, when synthesis is much worse than archetype then it is a problem.
And somethins should be modyfied allowing us to have reason why int is important to magus.

And now I read a post where Kalaam had simillar idea to mine (spell strike nr.1 ) Great minds think alike, or just we both get imspired with 1e magus :D

Honestly, your way doesn't sound or feel like magus, it feels like kinetics with weapon. So I would say personally it is kinda 2/10 idea for me.