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I am not sure if it intentionall but magus doesn't get Critical weapon Specialization that even bard and cloistered cleric have


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beowulf99 wrote:
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
The problem is your talk about spells and versatility and also using them to spellstrike to keep up with a fighter. Can't have it both ways, if magus is spellstriking for damage he isn't use them for other stuff, and they only have 4. The studious spells are useful, but much lower level and only 2 of them a day.

Magus already keeps up with a Fighter pretty well spellstriking with only cantrips. Your occasional slot spellstrike is less of a regular occurrence and more of your trump card. There when you need to deal that extra bunch of damage.

I'll agree that a Magus will be stretched by a long adventuring day (4 or more encounters) much faster than your other martials who aren't so dependent on a limited resource, but in a pretty common 3 or less combat adventuring day? The Magus has plenty of slots to keep up all day in my experience. And that is without accounting for accessory slots like Endless Grimoire or Ring of Wizardry which just help the Magus be more frivolous with their casting.

I tend to prepare my slots with mostly utility or defensive spells, then use Standby Spell to allow myself the opportunity to trade one of those slots in for a Shocking Grasp at need. Being a Martial who can fly on command at 7th level is really nice. Being a Martial who can cast Haste on themselves at 5th is also really nice.

Versatility doesn't mean that someone is capable of everything at all times. It is the ability to adapt at need to many functions. Arcane Spells are the versatility list, and Magus can pad their spellbook with as many utility and defensive spells as they'd like, just like a Wizard, and prepare them when they think they will need them.

And nothing I've read so far in this thread has convinced me that Spellstrike provoking does anything to break the most important part of Magus to me: It doesn't make it not fun to play. It hasn't made me second guess my choices with either of my current Magus builds, and it hasn't stopped me from wanting to build...

Only because it doesn't botter you doesn't mean it doesn't botter most people in this threat, there are multiple users that expressed their opinion that the would like for spellstrike provking AoO to be gone, or it quite bothers them that it exist.

For I haven't seen an actually good comment for spellstrike to still provoke AoO if it bothers that much, people with good reasons

I would like you to explain to me how magus keep up with fighter since I have seen graph and explanation of other people better than me that yes magus will deal more dmg with 1 of his 2 highest lvl shocking grasp than a fighter by little and then get back behind him and other martials when using cantrip. You complained that you read that magus deal less dmg than a fighter, but now you constantly say fighter keeps up with magus while having spells that doesn't deal DMG without actually proving it in any other way, while also complained that people who say magus doesn't keep up with fighter are using white room and actual play is not white room, but when I provided 2 actions per turn to attack average per your adventuring day you said that limiting magus to only 2 actions per turn is discriminatory because of how fighter and ranger works, but I suppose that in combat you will rarely be ably to regularly dedicate 3 actions for attacking, since sometimes you can actually be only left with 1, the reasons I already explained, that would mean magus is in the majority of cases left spellcasting every other turn.


beowulf99 wrote:
VictorFafnir wrote:

lvl 20

magus: 176,4
fighter: 210,7
Ranger: 177,3
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 122,4

What is the methodology you used to get these numbers?

Ranger and Magus have the same martial weapon's training, so their to hit numbers should be the same. At level 20, the Ranger gets 3d8 to their first attack against their target, avg 13.5, and 2d8 to their second attack avg. 9. So 22.5/turn damage from Precision average. The Magus on the other hand, limited to only arcane cascade damage, will be doing 3 bonus damage/strike, so 12.

The difference between the two should be about 33, but it is instead 54.9 according to your numbers. Could you break down your methodology?

Also, I will point out to your doom and gloom look at these numbers, that the Magus is a very burst heavy class. This analysis is stacked against them in multiple ways:

1. You only allow the Magus to Spellstrike with a Cantrip. For the Spellstrike version, re-run the numbers for a max spell slot Shocking Grasp or similar, and their numbers will be closer to the fighter, but that is irrelevant because,

2. I am assuming you are using the blank "recharge" action for the Spellstriking Magus, if so then you are doing them a double disservice. Every Magus has a focus spell that includes a strike and recharges their Spellstrike. Being that it is a focus spell, there is no reason they wouldn't use it. If you did use one of the focus spells, it should be noted which one.

3. This entire damage spread ignores half of the class: Access to arcane spells. Capping the Magus at 2 actions is more detrimental than capping either the Ranger or Fighter at pretty much every level, since the Magus wants an action to cast True Strike, or at least shield during a low-threat encounter.

So neat numbers, showing as close to the worst case scenario as I can think of for the Magus. And even with that in mind, the Magus still generally keeps up with the fighter when they spellstrike, and only starts lagging behind around level 8. Coincidentally, when they get Studious Spells and other options for padding out their spell list become easily available.

TL;DR, This damage spread is not a good representation of the class as a whole, and should be looked at only as a worst-case scenario, in my opinion

Firt don't call this the "worst case scenario as I can think of for the Magus" since ranger and a fighter have only 1d10 without any traits or feats, the same ranger on lvl 8 with twin takedown, animal companion, gravity weapon, mature animal companion, can deal 72dmg on a bad day in span of 2 round 3 action each and give someone else their hunter's edge(for free on higher lvls) making it 78,5 avarage, while magus uses highest lvl shocking grasp and in need of recharg using his 1 (or 2 focus points if you pick the 1st lvl feat) deal 84dmg, for his highest spellslot shocking grasp + his focus spell for extra attack and recharge+ another spellstrike with gouging claw, and if you miss your shocking grasp spellstrike you are f*$@ed while ranger will mentain his dps and get around 78 dmg per round since multiple attacks mean always being closer to avarage dmg.

0. Yea I double/thriple checked my math and I got lvl 20 wrong because I put wrong lvl there

Correction:

Magus: 148,3
Fighter: 180,6
ranger: 169,1
Magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn 149,6

They definitly don't keep up with the fighter in the closes, if they hit with their shocking grasp with their highest spell the diffrence is 15 hit points, on lvl 8. With your highest spell, I will do it with your way and my way on the lvl ma
Your way
As long as magus spellstrike every turn with one highest shocking grasp and keep on going with spellstrike gouging claw every round after he will be equall to fighter, unless he somehow loses 1 action to move or something else he will fall behind again by exactly the same ammount he was ahead

1 - I will

2 and 3 - It is great how you mentioned that magus not getting 3 actions per turn aka white room makes him less optimal. This way it is more down to earth and realistic since if your dm is putting any tactics to use and set up fights you will rarely get 3 actions every round for damage, and sometimes you will get 1 especially if you play an adventure that f@&!s your action economy over with trips grapples shoves and AoO like Fists of the Ruby Phoenix or encounters enemies like that. Obviously if a fighter or a ranger will deal more DMG just attacking 3 times in a round. That's why I rounded it up to 2 actions per round that can be used for attacks instead of moving, escaping, getting up, flanking etc, it is unrealistic to expect to get an average of 3 turns per round in a day to deal DMG, and I also was generous enough to make magus skip first turn where needs to spend additional action to enter arcane cascade that requires your recent action to be either spell or spellstrike.

Yea, I will make another one with spellstrike on max spell lvl with Excel and app screenshot.
Although the difference on lvl 18-20 between the highest shocking grasp and gouging claw ranges from 16 on lvl 8 to 35 on lvl 18-20 dmg depending on ac. It is a bit better on lower lvls, but you can do it only twice a day, and depending on your day your number of combat rounds will be something around 20 - 35. It can blend pretty easily, and this is your highest spell.

4. Honestly, "So neat numbers, showing as close to the worst-case scenario as I can think of for the Magus" When I not only counted arcane cascade for free gave him 2 action to attack per round that is more realistic than 3 action per turn for the entire encounter since this is avarage dmg Fighter and freaking ranger don't have feats enchanting their action economy and damage, I imagine with twin takedown and animal companion ranger would deal a whole more dmg, same goes for fighter that can casually stride twice and then attack twice and have an action left I am not even talking about straight up dmg boost.
So yes, you could potentially deal more dmg with your highest spell slot than a fighter and ranger without literally notching but 1d10, not even weapon traits. But that quickly goes away when ranger does twin takedown attacking TWICE + attack TWICE with animal companion and activating his precision dmg TWICE while also enabling other your party member to also benefit from your 2d8 Precision or picking 3 targets at the start or even before starting a fight which means you won't was any actions using hunter's edge or cast gravity weapon that would deal more than DOUBLE your arcane cascade damage and progress much faster than your arcane cascade.


HumbleGamer wrote:

Can't quite follow your calculations

lvl 4

Magus spellstrike:

Quote:

2d12(Striking Weapon) > Average Damage 6+7= 13

+4(STR)
+1(Cascade)
+2d6(Telekinetic Projektile) > Average Damage 4+3= 7
+3(int)
=

13+4+1+7+3= 28 Average spellstrike damage

Magus with basic strikes:

Quote:

2d12(Striking Weapon)

+4(STR)
+1(Cascade)
=

13+4+1= 18 (x2 = 36)

STR Monk ( non dex monk )

Basic Strikes

Quote:
2d6+4= 7+4= 11 (x2= 22)

Tiger Stance

Quote:
2d8+4= 13 (x2= 26)

Dragon Stance

Quote:
2d12+4= 17 (x2= 34)

Always ahead regardless the stance.

Plus, 90% of monks go main DEX, so 2 less damage each calculation ( not considering triggerin elemental and other damage weaknesses, when required, by switching cantrip ).

It is true that I went with a monk that goes full str, however I also take into account the avarage ac of an enemy, it is cool to deal masive dmg but if you take penalty to hit then the avarage dmg isnt that great, like great weapon master from dnd 5e or why smg from your second strike that takes -5 to hit is not as high as from your first, this is also why fighters who also have 2d12 striking weapon and 4 str would deal more dmg than magus 2d12 4 str + 1 arcane cascade. Ever since you can crit if you roll high, also I used d10 as previously mentioned in span of 2 turns 2 action each


HumbleGamer wrote:


Feels pretty good... considering the comparison is with two top dps classes.

Would be also interesting to see some comparison with the monk, champion, swashbuckler, investigator, rogue, and so on, but I think we all expected the magus falling behind fighter and ranger in terms of DPR.

Same principle like last time assuming both are in the stance (magus only loses here if we need to get into stance)

Tiger stance

Feels pretty bad since on
lvl 4
magus avarage dmg is 33,55
monk avarage dmg is 35,75 (non agile)

lvl 6
magus avarage dmg is 41,55
monk avarage dmg is 39,65 ( non agile)
Agaile monk avarage dmg is 42,25
Dragon tail avarage dmg is 45,75

lvl 8
magus avarage dmg is 58,6
Monk avarage dmg is 56,42 ( non agile)
Agaile monk avarage dmg is 60,12
Dragon tail avarage dmg is 62,53.

Monk not only have better action economy, better hp, LEGENDARY AC, but they also have feats that further empower their dmg and action economy, this dmg is monk without those feats

Previously ranger didn't use twin takedown that would boost their dmg above monk

This doesn't feel fine


beowulf99 wrote:


What builds are being used here? Curious so that I can replicate the test. Did you use a damage calculator, or run the numbers by hand?
CaffeinatedNinja wrote:


This is quite interesting. I can can chart something similar too. But for the sake of the poor ranger, I think using a 2hander isn’t good for him hah, their melee damage really wants twin takedown.

Let me correct my comment since page won't allow me to edit it.

Beowulf - This is without any feats weapon traits or builds, it is only class feature

Caffeinated Ninja -
Well then this is bad since this a ranger and a fighter without feats, without sudden charge, without animal companion, without twin takedown, without power attack and without weapon traits that grant you +1 to hit or bonus dmg the more strike you do like forcefull trait which only works against magus damage per round, without feats that makes your action economy better or grant you more dmg because magus have neither.
So this is possibly the most optimall magus can get vs non-optimal ranger and fighter and those 2 classes can increase their dpr further with feats and have much better action economy from the start (even without feats)


CaffeinatedNinja wrote:


This is quite interesting. I can can chart something similar too. But for the sake of the poor ranger, I think using a 2hander isn’t good for him hah, their melee damage really wants twin takedown.

Then this is even worse considering that this is the most optimal magus build vs non optimal ranger that can save his 1 action hunters edge since it last forever and if lucky it will last 4 rounds and he can cast it before fight.

the numers are run without any feats like double slice power attack or other that boost your actiom economy or dmg, also without weapon traits that give you bonus to hit or more dmg the more times you strike in a turn since that would be more disadvantegous to magus because his feats dont improve neither.
Only core class features and runes that you get as soon as possible.


beowulf99 wrote:


Oh, I won't dispute that. Accuracy is an amazing damage booster, since not hitting zeroes out your damage faster than anything else. But that is the fighters Niche. If the Magus performed equally within that niche, then the fighter would no longer have a niche, and the Magus would just be a better fighter.

What I am disputing is the idea that a Magus without Spellstrike deals "Terrible" damage. They do not. To quote a developer response from a different game when talking about one faction having blanket immunity to another factions primary schtick, "Don't your swords still work?"

Just because a class may be incentivized to play sub-optimally does not mean that that sub-optimal is terrible. It is still viable.

And AoO does not force you to play sub-optimally at all. You can still Spellstrike a foe with AoO, even if they have their reaction still. The chances of them actually disrupting your spell aren't great, and the Magus does in fact have a health pool where others insinuate there is a single hit point, and they have options to help them survive those hits.

2 turns, every class get 2 actions per turn since you won't stay in place every time to attack 3 times, each have reach weapon 1d10 dmg by avarage against cr=lvl

Magus uses gouging claw his most dming cantrip and uses arcane cascade, magus 1st round spellstrike, 2nd strike + recharge
Ranger uses precision, 1st round hunters edge + strike, 2nd turn two strikes
fighter 1st round two strikes, 2nd turn two strikes.

lvl 2
magus dmg : 22,38
Fighter dmg : 29,45
Ranger: 26,68
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 26,25

lvl 4
magus: 33,55
fighter: 46,5
Ranger: 37,95
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 37,55

lvl 6
magus: 41,55
fighter: 51
Ranger: 42,6
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 44.8

lvl 8 - assuming you get flaming 1d6 or any other rune that deals dmg besides wounding and also lvl where you get punished for not executing your rotation of 2 turns
magus: 58,6
fighter: 73,1
Ranger: 55,25
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 47.6

lvl 10 -
magus: 71,63
fighter: 85,5
Ranger: 72,83
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 62

lvl 12 - 2 runes that deal 1d6 dmg
magus: 85,8
fighter: 107,1
Ranger: 86,35
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 71.4

lvl 14
magus: 110,3
fighter: 136,5
Ranger: 108
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 90

lvl 16
magus: 124,9
fighter: 153,5
Ranger: 116,4
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 103.7

lvl 18
magus: 117,13
fighter: 138,7
Ranger: 105,97
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 94,55

lvl 20
magus: 176,4
fighter: 210,7
Ranger: 177,3
magus no spellstrike - 2 strikes each turn: 122,4


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If you honestly think that it is fun playing around AoO and not using your main feature that your class is based around, then go and play out some encounters with it, because magus isn't champion nor monk nor investigator his entire stick is striking and using spells to deal dmg or buff himself.
And currently magus with cantrip spellstrike is kinda not that good about it even if he cast his highest spell slot in the long run will not be that significant.


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aobst128 wrote:
You'll still have a decent amount of options even when you're not spellstriking. A good buff spell will go a long way to help your damage output against aoo creatures.

Options? Yes.

Dmg ? you will be severly behind


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beowulf99 wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:

First of all, let me say that I don't have a dog in the hunt. I'm not particularly interested in playing a Magus. But I have read the entire thread, and I have a question for those who think spellstrike should provoke: Do you believe if it didn't, that the Magus would be too strong? Or are you afraid it might set a bad precedent regarding spell casting and AsoO?

I guess I just haven't yet seen a convincing argument in favor of keeping provoking.

Partially I do think it would elevate Magus a bit too high honestly. I suppose there is a case to be made that the melee spellcaster should have some defense against AoO, that I won't dispute. And I don't think that Steady Spellcasting is a good enough option. But I don't think that it should be baked into the class by default. To me, Spellstrike is plenty strong enough.

I just don't see the big deal about AoO's. At the highest rates given as evidence in the thread, not even 40% of enemies in a given AP have it. In my experience, if there is a foe who has a decent shot at getting that crit on their AoO, it's probably a high level single threat boss, or at least there won't be that many other enemies about. And if that is the case, their attention will be spread between the Magus and the rest of the Party. It is hardly ever a 1v1 affair. Sometimes the Magus will catch the bad end of the stick. But if that's the case, the rest of the party will be free to do what they are doing.

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
You name it. Problem is magus is doing miserable damage without spellstrike once you exhaust the focus abilities (like round 2) so you NEED spellstrike to do decent damage. If Magus's damage game when he wasn't spellstriking was better it might be less of an issue.

Miserable Damage? A Magus is still a martial, and can still swing their weapon. Arcane Cascade is an extra 1-3 damage that an equivalent fighter can't get. They have easy access to self buffs like Draw the Lightning and True Strike.

I have no complaints...

I mean, I have wrote it before but I don't know if I got ignored.

It is not always about geting disturbed, although enemies with AoO will be mostly bosses that can distrub your spell on 20-30% chance. Its about letting enemy hit you for free while doing your class feature, you don't see ranger getting hit in the face for using hunter's mark, and besides even it it is not 40%, 20% is still a lot since those are with AoO, we don't count the other ones that give you a headache with messing your action economy or making you unable to use spellstrike or wasting your actions for getting up after foe tripped you
Catching the bad end of the stick for doing what your entire class and 50% of your feats are build around is kinda bad.

Second. Arcane cascade dmg is pitfull in terms of dmg and action economy of magus, sure fighter might not get that +1 to dmg, but they get crits and not missing, other classes get flurry of blows or hunter's mark, Even with this at best you will be a bit behind in dmg than a mediocre/avarage striker (while risking getting hit in the face if enemy have AoO) and without it you are worse fighter, allowing your cantrips to be used as part of melee strike is not a buff since cantrips are worse than just striking for every other class, in span of 2 turns while recharging magus will be behind every other martial, even their spell slots spellstrike aren't that great.

Third, draw the lightning requires your fight to last at least 6-7 rounds and you spellstriking every turn to match the dmg output of let's say shocking grasp, while it last 10 turns, It is not optimal, true strike is true strike.. it is better option that most of your spells but it is bounded to 1st lvl spellslot so anyone with arcane spellcasting archetype and 2 feats will get as much use of it as magus.


Verdyn wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
My first magus (inexorable iron) build is currently level 2, heading to level 3 in a biweekly game, with only a few combats under his belt, so not much experience there to be fair. But even at low level, I've had a few key spellstrikes, and usually don't even need to spellstrike to be effective. Just the ability to have my own buffs like Magic Weapon without available has been quite nice.
Here's a serious question, would your team deal more damage if you give your magic weapon buff to the Fighter? Aside from that low-level play isn't where you're supposed to see the issue as few enemies at that level will have AoOs and/or abilities to lock down a character effectively via other means.

Besides the fact that magus is better of attacking instead of using spellstrik up to 3rd lvl it would be more efficient on any other caster, but then we are going with warpriest way where anything to boost is better off being used at other martial if possible


Golurkcanfly wrote:


The Fighter has to contend with MAP on that second strike, while the Magus doesn't. They are getting the benefits of 3 actions worth of damage for 2. And that damage runs a wide gamut actually.

A Magus spellstriking with a Cantrip may do less damage than a fighter. But what about a Magus using a max spell level spell on that attack? There is variance there, the Magus has options.

lvl 12

Magus 2 turns, 1st turn spellstrike with shocking grasp at highest lvl, 2nd turn strike+recharge
Fighter attack twice each round
diffrence = 7 dmg for magus

Magus 2 turn gouging claw spellstrike like the above
Fighter strike twice each round
diffrence = 18 dmg for fighter

Fighter attack 4 times, so he will at least hit, if magus misses spellstrike... well…

Golurkcanfly wrote:


They can throw a highest level spell slot at a particularly strong foe, they can throw cantrips and still deal reasonable damage against a lesser foe. And they can dial in their damage types much more efficiently than a Fighter can to avoid resistances or trigger weaknesses. And they can support themselves with spells like Draw the Lightning or True Strike, whereas a Fighter can't without dipping into a casting class.

A Magus isn't a martial equal to a top-tier fighter, but a Fighter MC'd with a casting class is a poor Magus.

...

As I discussed, if you spellstrike a strong foethat happens to have AoE you get hit in the face, and he has more than 10% chance to crit you

Otherwise, your cantrips are either equall or lagging behind other martials that are strikers


beowulf99 wrote:


But the reality that I have experienced so far is that even when a foe with +Grab or AoO is your target, the chances of them completely shutting down your ability to spellstrike isn't all that high. And a high level (level 10 plus) Magus that makes no plans to defend themselves with spells, or at least make a plan with their allies to defend them, is making poor choices.

Yes I would agree that fighters are kinda busted, and they will be above everyone in terms of DMG, I don't think comparing a fighter as a benchmark is completely fair, but considering that magus spellstrike is 2 action with 1 action recharge they should be close at least in terms of cantrips, but they fall behind other martials like ranger action wise and dmg wise on early lvls.

Its so bad that at first 3 lvls you are better of attacking twice during your 2 turns than recharging your spellstrike, you are doing more dmg if you just attack 4 times during 2 turns instead of casting shocking grasp at 2nd lvl and striking+recharg

Eg, within 2 rounds given 2 actions per each. as a magus you than ranger with your spellstrike and gouging claw, and he doesn't need to recharge unless he wants to pick a new target and doesn't provoke AoO. And it assumes you will at least spellstrike once per 2 turns because otherwise you deal less DMG, while having smaller class hp than him.
I just don't think that dealing as much dmg as precision ranger is enough for you to provoke a freaking AoO wtf.
And when casting your highest spellslot at lvl 12 shocking grasp you deal ~20 more dmg if you hit, one of your 2 highest spellslot mind you assuming that ranger will switch target after 2 rounds.

My biggest problem with AoO is not that it can disturb your spell (it sucks when it happend if you want to use them to deal dmg instead of buffing yourself and that you want to use them on important things like bosess that can have 25% to crit instead of cr-3 goblin.) But the fact that you allow enemy a free attack, no other class get punished that way for using their main stick like rogue or swashbuckler, on top of that with lvls monsters get anti martial or anti caster stuff. In the end you are working around something that increase with frequency at lvl's goes and want to waste your actions so not only you need to work around something that is your core feature, if you don't use it you are lagging behind other martials and you have less hp.


beowulf99 wrote:


Sure, in a vacuum a Magus with no attempt at using any sort of defensive spell will probably suffer. But the reality just doesn't pan out that way.

Yea, expect that in a vacuum magus is stronger since you assume the best possible outcome for him and he is kinda build around it, if you take it out of it magus get hit in the face. Like someone before wrote, grapling, AoO can punish magus hardly because it either takes your actions to release yourself from grapple or getting hit in the face. If magus action economy get disturbed, he suffers much more than ranger or a fighter does since his main thing for dealing dmg takes 2 actions and need a reload potentially costing you 3 actions, other strikers don't have that problem and their basic strikes deal more dmg or they have easier access to their dmg ability like a rogue that can just get behind someone, or someone else making enemy flat-footed since it benefits everyone and there are much more options to do so/is easier to do.

Since you have played on low lvls and only 1 one-shot where you encountered AoO you may not feel like it matters much.

beowulf99 wrote:


Between any defensive spells you decide to prepare yourself and use to defend yourself and any abilities used by your allies, you have more options to deal with the enemies additional options the higher level you go. It is a two-way arms race. This could be as simple as having a friendly bard throw out a timely Synaptic Pulse to strip away the opponent's reaction, or a friendly Champion who throws their champ reaction at you. Maybe you aren't the biggest threat, or that same Champ moved around the foe to flank and baited out that AoO.

Expect it changes almost notching, anyone can benefit from it and other classes benefit from those things better than magus. If you cast a defensive spell on a magus or fighter, they will benefit equally from it, so notching will change. If the class is designed to be good if they have the right team comp and teammates actively "babysit" magus otherwise you are punished it's not good design, what happens if you don't have other spellcasters, what happens if you don't have champion to shield you, what happens if you don't have a class that mitigate your weakness in your party? Because every other class don't need that, but you suggest that magus does.

Picking the right class or build according to your team should reward you, but it shouldn't be required to make class not getting heavy punishment for using its core feature or deciding to be worse martial for the day.
I know pathfinder is a teamwork game, but magus on higher lvls shouldn't require others to "babysit" him to be good if they can focus on a fighter to make him the best.

beowulf99 wrote:


And by level 16, you have had 3 chances to throw an ability boost at Constitution, and at least 4 chances to take Toughness. Not to mention Belt of Good health or any of options to pad your HP with Temp HP, like super cheap scrolls of False Life.

Expect that by lvl 16 everyone had 3 chances to throw an ability boost at con, and 4 chances to pick toughness and I think all martials will do so, the game is based around this like fundamental runes are, and all of those items can be used to upgrade the class from good to better since everyone can take it and benefit the same from those, but instead it goes from mediocre to decent

beowulf99 wrote:


So yeah, if you decide to throw caution to the wind and only build for pure spellstrike with no nuance, and you never act with your allies covering you with abilities and spells, then you will suffer more and more the higher level you get to. But if that's how you play, then you will ALWAYS have more issues with higher level enemies no matter what you build.

You shouldn't be asking for Spellstrike to not trigger. You should be asking how you can mitigate the fact that it does. And there are plenty of easily accessible options.

Something as simple as a 12 gp scroll of Mirror Image can give you a decent, if relatively short lived, defense against AoO's on your way in to pound the enemy.
TL;DR: Yeah, the enemy gets tougher the higher level...

Scroll of mirror image, you mean it being used by only 2 hybrid studies that can do that without losing 2 to 3 actions like laughing shadow and staff magus?

Because I see some problems with shield magus, two handed weapon magus and starlit span.
Another take is for eg. scroll of false life is usless to iron magus and so other spells for other traditions, you have to regularly pay for it and upgrade it otherwise it quickly loses its usefulness in a fight, and dare I say that fighter or champion with trick magic item feat that buff himself beforehand or even durring a fight since him losing his 3rd or 2nd attack doesn't matter as much will get more from casting false life no matter what build he does and mirror image since his ac with plate will be better and he wil have bulwark.


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beowulf99 wrote:


I wouldn't say that it means you can't use Spellstrike. You just may be punished for it, assuming the enemy still has their reaction and you are in their melee range when you make the strike. In the same way that a ranged character would be punished for making a ranged attack in the same circumstances.

It is not exactly about disrupting your spell, sure it is a threat for your limited slots and when it happens it usually will be done by boss that can crit you on 15-16, and this is the kind of monster you want to use your biggest guns on.

Unfortunately I didn't have spell slots left, but we were fighting a boss that could do that, crit me or others on 16-17, it quickly downed my teammates around 4 times, with unlucky dice we managed to kill it, but it is good example of magus being downgraded to worse fighter or being punished by giving enemy free attack that have 20-25% chance to crit me, disrupt my spell and knock me out, and around 70% to hit me.

But you are you being punished for? For using your core class feature?
If you are using a bow and an enemy got close to you then either you or your team made a mistake, you let it happen, or your enemy tricked you or use some other method to get close (he knew who to focus and exploit weakness) either way you are not supposed to be this close to an enemy with a bow, because the bow wasn't designed for it.

But magus is supposed to be up close unless you are starlit span subclass,
for exactly what are you being punished for, you have less hp and less ac than a fighter or a ranger, and you are using your core class feature that is designed to be played this close to an enemy. Magus already have builded in limitation in terms of action economy and other factors,not to mention enemies getting anti melee abilities grapple and knockdowns later on, also AoO is getting more common as you go with lvls. You may think it wasn't that bad but when in almost every fight there are at least a few (or some) of them or in every other fight every enemy has it, then this limitation becomes a problem because you give them free opportunity to attack you for playing your class, magus maybe not squishy like a wizard or sorcerer, but he also isn't tanky like champion or fighter/ranger, blows will hurt him more than other's martials. At least in my experience.


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beowulf99 wrote:


That being said, I do feel like this issue is being slightly over blown. Even in campaigns where there are a higher than normal number of AoO like reactions, there will be targets the Magus can focus on safely. For me, Spellstrike provoking sucks, and I would rather it didn't, but it doesn't break the class in any real way. It just isn't that big of a deal most of the time.

It may not happen often, but when it does, it will hit you like a train.

Being 8hp medium armor magus against AoO that can reach you while you cast spell strike means you will either have to
A - If you are lucky to have left some self buffing spells left that work only on the caster like draw the lightning casted before hand and fight will last min 10 rounds, you are good. (if they are immune or resistant to lightning, you are s!%! out of luck)
B - Suck it up and get potential hit at your face with 12 con and 8 class hp if you decided to have high int.
C - Pray that someone in your party will burn enemy reaction
D - Don't do something that your entire class is build around, since half of your feats require or want you to spellstrike making you a worse fighter or any other martial since all you have left are normal strikes or/and your buffs if you managed to cast any on yourself
E - Attack from distance with your cantrips or spells(if any) while having at least -1 mod to attack with your spells than other casters(and those casters already have problem with hitting stuff with spells)

All the options above suck. It's like telling rogue 30% of the time you can't deal precision dmg to an enemy unless he want to provoke AoO and potentially cancel his attack, or palladin that they can't use their reaction on 30% of enemy'es strikes (but they at least have legendary proficiency in heavy armor and more hp than you).

Not to mention someone already proposed that someone who want's to play magus could be better of playing summoner or fighter/magus archetype since strike + EA can deal more dmg than gouging claw spellstrike early to mid game and fighter even if once per fight can deal more DMG than you, even if you spend all your spell slots on (eg) shocking grasp fighter DMG will be a bit lower and will eventually surpass you pretty fast and won't provoke AoO every turn. My counterpoint is that you can cast self buffs that only works on the caster like draw the lightning giving you additional 1d12, but with magus archetype fighter will eventually get them, the only hope is that 7th lvl spell will be good enough.

It may not be the best comparison since fighter is a fighter, but fighter shouldn't be better at doing other class job like champion reaction, ranger hunter's edge or rogue sneak attack


graystone wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
No other Magus can reliably use Spellstrike in a campaign full of AoO like abilities without suffering for it.
It's possible with a reach weapon and things that increase their size: if you can outpace their reach with your reach + weapon reach, it's tricky but possible. So one magus is good and the other is okay-ish with work. That's still bad IMO.

Iron magus with reach weapon can cast enlarge on himself with his conflux spells. But that is only one of the studies, and you are sacrificing one of the slots that you could have usen on true strike + your max lvl shocking grasp for DMG (e.g). Or it requires other party member to be able to enlarge you or someone using scrolls and wasting their action economy taking care of you.


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HumbleGamer wrote:
VictorFafnir wrote:

Good thing that recharging your spellstrike don't trigger AoO.

Oh wait, it does if you are using any focus spell from your class feats
They have all just the verbal trait, and because so they can't trigger any AoO.

Those granted from your hybrid studies? Yes, but force fang and others you get from class feats does trigger AoO


Good thing that recharging your spellstrike don't trigger AoO.
Oh wait, it does if you are using any focus spell from your class feats.
honestly, getting AoO on your face wouldn't be that bad if magus had more than 8hp or at least hybrid study that is suppoused to make you tanky would give you more hp than 1 on lvl 3 or heavy armor if you can't have it at the start.


The-Magic-Sword wrote:


This came up in the other thread as well, but if a Magus is just a fighter/wizard, then what justifies its presence in a game system that went out of its way to ensure fighter/wizard can be played?

Well I guess now there is no need for any calss that is mix of other 2 classes.

Say goodbye to magus, shaman, swashbuckler, investigator, hunter, arcanist, brawler, bloodrager.


We could potentially get swordmage in the future, but in heavy modified way as swordmage is from WoC and its pretty unlikely that one will take something away from other.

If you want sword mage then you will have unfortunetly wait for it.
It feels (at last to me) like what are you saying is on lvl "I want fighter so lets remove rage from barbarian and give him heavy armor prof together with legendary weapons and martial versatility, let him also chose dex as core ability class.


Also if we could ask for more than 2 trained skills + int and arcana ?
Magus with int as 3 or 4th abilty they need is limited when others have 6 without int...

I men come on men, class that should have higher int will have less than other class with int mod -1, isn't it wrong ?
Oracle for example having 5 trained skills with 10 in comparing to magus int 16 and they have the same numbers of trained skills.


Don't know if I got in time but

Suggestion and explanation why removing "spell need to target one creature or object/target" from spell strike can be benefitial to how magus play, also changing how magus will pick spells.
Of course some sepll might now work but those are expections that magus wouldn't use anyway.

Let's take teleport for example, you target yourself by imbuing yourself with a spell what lead to you being teleported, if it would be haste you need to be 1 of possible targets.

Chain lightning, target of your weapon becomes first target of spell if spell can target multiple creatures. Versatility, is that when melee you will be limited to options who you can hit and if multiple enemies are close enough for you to risk casting spell targeting 3 creates or use shocking grasp for example or vampiric touch.

If it would be haste or another spell that would target friendly creatures it is the same, you have to be one or first target of your spell. Being in first line and with limited spell economy you can chose to buff yourself along your teammates or let other spellcaster handle it while you be more focused on dealing dmg or surviving.

As Melee you would want to chave some options, Using fireball is Kamikaze and buffing aren't that worthy if you need to keep concentration spells and front line don't come very well together, but are always a choice for something,
Slide pethaps would want some more dmg or protection and because of them being mobile you can get away more easly using multiple target spells, while sustaning steel could focus more on single target spells
It open new way to play your magus, for sure you would chose spells diffrently when playing ranged magus, perhaps more aoe combined with your arrows being center of spell.

One of restrictions that can help balance it out is that you would need to hit with your spell strike, if you miss then spell is lost. Its stupid one but currently its only fair when melee synthesis miss then they lose spell. But if we get fix on spell strike letting us hold spells for rounds then instead of that letting shooting star discharge their spell when they miss is fair enough IMO. But feel fre to critic

Second one is leaving "one target or creature when spell deal dmg or require attack roll" on shooting star, but that would be lame, but yet again you could use some kind of ammunition that deal non lethal dmg as arrows without tip or something like that when casting buff on your party, of course that would be poor choise because you should be more on distance side (currently you are fighting along side other casters what's kinda lame, you should be able to attack from bigger distance like 30ft more at cost of something)

Its just idea but letting it life can benefit players and magus class in an interesting way and don't force pressure on some players to go spell strike with shocking grasp like in previous edditions.

And biggest benefit are feats, 2 of them require you for it to be attack spell that deals elemental dmg, 4 of them are on the same lvl and 3 are tied to you synthesis, so its more like you benefit from 2 feats, slide casting already can do it with 4 specific feats that only work with it and some of them being able to be use by monk feat.


richienvh wrote:

Yeah. Magus is basically Mutagenist-drinking Alchemist 2.0. in terms of MADness.

I feel we already have a one-trick pony in that the current Magus will be trying really hard to get Haste + True Strike going.

I also could live with weapon potency to accuracy, but then we'd still have that weird floating proficiency.

One idea to deal with the MADness would be considering having an Int to weapon Strike and weapon damage akin to the Investigators (only working for Striking Spell) to leave it just at the -2s from proficiency.

Well, instead changing str/dex to in durring spell strike why not att it as bonus to hit considering you already have sacrificed 3 actions to hit and mostly you won't get away with mor than 3 int unless there will be synthesis that focus on int


Temperans wrote:
Now that I know that feat exists. I think the current Striking Spell is an insult to the memory of the Magus. Here we have a feat that not only lets a character strike as part of a 1 action spell, it also gives them a stride so they can land said spell.

Its 16 lvl so..


Okey listen
I like Standing steel, and I see no harm in letting it stay, its a feature that is liked by many and loved by some.


Yea, but you can convert int into other things, profficiency you will get no matter what and they are usefull when it comes to saving throws, In a way even wizards with better proff have problem with enemies passing sv or hitting them with a spell but anyway.

Int could be used in Synthesis like raise a thome, or be part of spell strike, or let you use some powerfull abilities limited times, or even feats that would give you more wizard abilities would require int mod to be higher.


Honestly, spell roll/dc portion of spell strike, you are actually better of trying to have 18 in str and a bit more survalibility, as it will be easier to crit with weapon that you have runes and better proff and increase success of spell roll by 1 lvl rather than being squishy and trying your chance that you succeed on both rolls for spell strike.

Any spell you would want to cast outside of spell strike would be some sort of buff, I would leave fireball spells be used by other casters that can alter it to some degree making it bigger or from larger distance or benefit more from casting it. They also have better proff than magus and more spells.


Let's take teleport for example, you target yourself by imbuing yourself with a spell what lead to you being teleported, if it would be haste you need to be 1 of possible targets.

Chain lightning, target of your weapon becomes first target of spell if spell can target multiple creatures. Versatility, is that when melee you will be limited to options who you can hit and if multiple enemies are close enough for you to risk casting spell targeting 3 creates or use shocking grasp for example or vampiric touch.

If it would be haste or another spell that would target friendly creatures it is the same, you have to be one or first target of your spell. Being in first line and with limited spell economy you can chose to buff yourself along your teammates or let other spellcaster handle it while you be more focused on dealing dmg or surviving.

As Melee you would want to chave some options, Using fireball is Kamikaze and buffing aren't that worthy if you need to keep concentration spells and front line don't come very well together, but are always a choice for something,
Slide pethaps would want some more dmg or protection and because of them being mobile you can get away more easly using multiple target spells, while sustaning steel could focus more on single target spells
It open new way to play your magus, for sure you would chose spells diffrently when playing ranged magus, perhaps more aoe combined with your arrows being center of spell.

One of restrictions that can help balance it out is that you would need to hit with your spell strike, if you miss then spell is lost. Its stupid one but currently its only fair when melee synthesis miss then they lose spell. But if we get fix on spell strike letting us hold spells for rounds then instead of that letting shooting star discharge their spell when they miss is fair enough IMO. But feel fre to critic

Second one is leaving "one target or creature when spell deal dmg or require attack roll" on shooting star, but that would be lame, but yet again you could use some kind of ammunition that deal non lethal dmg as arrows without tip or something like that when casting buff on your party, of course that would be poor choise because you should be more on distance side (currently you are fighting along side other casters what's kinda lame, you should be able to attack from bigger distance like 30ft more at cost of something)

Its just idea but letting it life can benefit players and magus class in an interesting way and don't force pressure on some players to go spell strike with shocking grasp like in previous edditions.

And biggest benefit are feats, 2 of them require you for it to be attack spell that deals elemental dmg, 4 of them are on the same lvl and 3 are tied to you synthesis, so its more like you benefit from 2 feats, slide casting already can do it with 4 specific feats that only work with it and some of them being able to be use by monk feat.


Well then I guess its bad idea.
What I am getting at is including int to spell strike or synthesis that would let us benefit from int.
Because right now what is rly int usefull for magus ? Would it be a problem if his int mod was 0 ?


What if magus could cast any spell with spell strike ?
That would solve the problem, and considering that he alredy have 4 spell slots only it wouldnt be bad thing, its 4 power moves and other than that are only cantrips


If synthesis would be buffed in a way they deserve to be a stance (and interact with spell strike) then I think its good.
But what about letting magus have those 3 as weapon diffrence between weapoons, you would obviously have all 3 but could only use 1 with weapon, that would allow you to have backup weapon.
Or just get rid of weapon requirement but being able to use only one per round ?


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I would also like to have choice between str/dex/int as primaly, even having 12 or 14 in int is not good option, You are better of with str/dex, and then full con.

Even investigator have better use of int in his melee attack rolls than magus.

Add int to magus dmg while using spell strike or attack roll to hit and take away his weapon mastery or something


VictorFafnir wrote:


- Spell strike, either be it part of casting spell or let us deliver spells by weapon attack roll, and let us hold it for few rounds

- Synthesis, make it a little bit powerfull and give them some kind of lvl progression (not much like little bust, sustning steel being able to hold his tm hp for 1 or more rounds,) Rebuild shooting star, currently taking archetype is better than being magus and shooting star synthesis)
Lets think about adding 2 more synthesis, martial changing arcane fist to synthesis, and raise a thome because currently it either you have to wait to 2nd lvl to fist someone or you don't use it because none of synthesis have free hand for tome and usage of raise a tome.

Make int mod matter, make me don't ignore int, why shouldn't I just have 0 int mod and build to be pure martial ?

Someone proposed idea that we could remore limitation of spell strike "Spell have to target one creature or object" I want for example teleport and stab someone while benefit from my spell strike bonuses, or cast haste on myself and others by imbuing spell into my body. Why shouldn't I, its not like other classes can't do that. (Also we need some feats that are martial-fighter or wizard-related, having too much feats that base on spel strike cna backfire, martial caster is very good example of it.

Sustaning steel having ability to call shield as free action is nice touch if we are talking to make it better, Other than that I am giving my hopes into developers hands

Finally but perhaps not last, give us more trained skills, we won't have inteligence of a wizard on magus without good reason, like being able to replace our attack weapon abiltity to int (doesn't change dmg abiltity of weapon like str)


Lets also think about Synthesis that doesn't restric you to your weapon allowing you to have sustaning steel on 1h weapon ? How about slide casting on 2h weapon.
Problem stands about balance. I think fair enough would be if slide casting would allow you to have something in other hand like shield or tome,(raise a thome) This also work around idea of spell strike giving us some more action economy (by leting us hold spell by rounds or striking being part of spell casting)


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Okey so quick list:
Currently if you are not taking archetype into fighter you are kindas screw.

- More 1 action cantrips and spells

- Let have magus some kinds of bonus when having high int, its not usefull at all and honestly I can see people just ignoring it to be full fighter as you can get cricticals easier.

- Spell strike, either be it part of casting spell or let us deliver spells by weapon attack roll, and let us hold it for few rounds

- Give use 2/2/2 system or 3/3. 2/2 can work but it is kinda pain in the ass, limiting our spell, limiting whenever we can cast boost spells on ourself like haste without feats, Temperans idea with spell strike is nice. It just feels like they should have a little bit more spells but at the same time not being a full or half caster. Current idea with limited spells that grow in power is good.

- Synthesis, make it a little bit powerfull and give them some kind of lvl progression (not much like little bust, sustning steel being able to hold his tm hp for 1 or more rounds,) Rebuild shooting star, currently taking archetype is better than being magus and shooting star synthesis)
Lets think about adding 2 more synthesis, martial changing arcane fist to synthesis, and raise a thome because currently it either you have to wait to 2nd lvl to fist someone or you don't use it because none of synthesis have free hand for tome and usage of raise a tome.

- Lvl Progression, magus have only 4 spells and some good feats, but his on his own he doesn't rly have anything on his own, that's why progression synthesis can be nice, and will not make class overpower.

- Rising shield, This one is special because none of synthesis can rly benefit out of it, i suggest making it new synthesis like in
"Recommended Adjustments for the Magus" where where magus can also access wands, rods, scrolls etc.

- Magus potency, progression is slow but I don't know if it can even be combined with already enchanted weapon so on 5th lvl you can have weapon +1 and add amgic potency making it +2, maybe combine it with runic impression like Temparans suggested but anyway.

- Magus having spell mastery 6 lvls after weapon mastery, its rly too late, at last make it 4 lvls or something. Double Spellstrike, yea... lets just change it. Also if magus will be martial focused class let us have 1st lvl feat.

- Feats,
Raise tome and Arcane fists are better of as synthesis, A lot of players love those ideas but they need to be avaliable for 1st lvl, Aracne fist can get away first 1st lvl feat but raise tome is idea that can be expanded

Spirit sheat - it would be nice if this wouldnt be one of 3 feats that is usable only by slide casting, and letting us hold to 2 bulk or more, it is okay that you can draw from it as part of casting but I would like to see it being drawn as part of attack with weapon that discharge your striking spell, (and letting us use spell strike on weapons in spirit sheats) this way when we hold striking spell it still work

Bspell Strikers - Very nice

Steady Spellcasting - Don't rly have solution but I would like it to be on 2nd lvl or be a bit better.

Striker's scroll - Its nice if you want to go with archetype or have a lot of spells, its 1 free spell at cost of gold or many in form of arrows can be usefull with a lot of low lvl spells.

Capture spell - Is good, it would be nice to know what spell is being casted at us (in some fort of spell check according to spell) But I guess it would make it kinda overpower, but considering it only work with slide casting.

Comet spell - Very cool idea, I would only at explotion around target (5 or 10ft) that doesn't affect said target.

Healer's Steel - Very nice feat that I love.

Portal Slide - Even if portal is sligthly usefull in some situation it still need to be improved or remaked IMO

Preternatural parry - Yet another feat that currently only works for Slide casting synthesis or arcane fist, is that 4 if I count correctly ? Its of course good option and solid feat but let other synthesis get some love :(


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After reading this it feels like it is kinda gathered knowledge and potential improvments from this forum that we all want. You could say this post speak for most of us, and I belive it will be good source of feedback for devs. Especailly that you spend more than one or two fights as a magus also having 2 other characters to compare to. My experience was kinda the same, especially with higher lvl oponents. Good job !

Spell strike should be improved version of Eldritch Shot in 2 actions and then letting us decide whenever we want to attack on the same turn or afterwards (withing few rounds).
I personally think that 2 taxes of magus needs to go to make it playable and some low lvl feats redesign (with maybe 1 or 2 higher) together with some changes with synthesis of shooting star, when synthesis is much worse than archetype then it is a problem.
And somethins should be modyfied allowing us to have reason why int is important to magus.


We still can expect some archetyeps, so far lets focus on playing core class so I wouldn't be so worried about it, not to mention we still be wating for fixes for magus there is still Almost a year for it


Martialmasters wrote:
graystone wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

In practice both myself and unicore were disappointed with mc caster for Magus but impressed by mc into a martial dedication. Him mauler and myself fighter.

This is primarily due to equipment offering spell options for Magus (staff, wands, scrolls, etc) along with core Magus feats increasing spell options for the Magus itself and you can take feats to gain new strike actions to use with spell strike that also helps with it's general martial performance.

Take this for what you will. But I see no reason to MC caster with a Magus.

I saw this the other way: with the 4 slots preventing staff use when you lose low level slots and my general dislike on spending cash for disposable spell items I found MC caster as a requirement for those utility and buff spells I wanted for the class.

Now that isn't to say MC into a martial isn't tempting too: Personally I liked MC wizard 1st then MC fighter. I did flip that for a sustaining steel as they felt more martial than caster.

What that tells me if Magus is either right in the sweet spot. Or that no matter what they do. Someone is going to be mad about how the Magus is.

For me, I play sorcerer specifically because I don't care about utility slots.

I disagree and agree at the same time.

Yes you can't please everyone because there always be person wo will be salty about anytching because they want and will be salty. Or just slightly don't like what it is ( me with dnd5e and how basic and limiting it is)

However it doesn't matter Magus can't be better than it is already, Trying to force magus into focus spells(that would work better with Kineticist) or other sheningas is taking away from what it essencially is, Class are suppoused to be simillar to 1e where the basic and core of class is, you can't rly call witch a witch if you remove hexes and patron and enchange it with something else.


One of things that I thought in past days is giving magus more feats that allow him do more fighter or wizard stuff without dedication feat, not only letting him with magus feats. It would be nice touch to let players kinda decide whenever they want to be more 50/50 or 65/35.


Midnightoker wrote:

The changes to the some of the Synthesis I'm less convinced on, because they are still tethered to Striking Spell in order to trigger.

Personally, I'd rather see Synthesis trigger on any type of casting, as they are primarily a 'martial' benefit (temp HP, range, and movement), but that's me.

You put a lot of effort into these posts. Well done!

Thanks ! :D. I love magus and I hope it will be become great class, they already have gorgeous ideas with shooting star and sustaning steel(which is actually usefull when you play it) but it need a little bit polishing.

About Synthesis, I worked around idea that in future we will at last get some more cantrips and spells that are 1 action as message is, and spell strike will be more optimized, or similar to nr.1 idea. I think spell strike that additionally give strong bonuses will make players to kinda "Force" to use it not letting them be just a warrior that can cast spell or 2 like (fighter/wizard).
You are welcome to remove spell strike use requirement from this post and try it out.

I think leaving it as part of spell strike will give it a little bit of balance and allow synthesis to be a little bit stronger. Especially when you remove need for spell to be "target one target" from spell strike allow you to use some other spells, maybe like fireball (shooting dude with an arrow that create big explosion) or buffing/CC ones.


Yea, Spirith sheathe right now in playtest is only usefull for Slide casting magus and in some cases for Shooting star, now it is more useable for other synthesis than Slide casting which already have 3 more feats than other 2 synthesis. And it is equall to quick draw if not a little bit weaker.

To be honest I think we all like the idea for spellstrike to hold charge, I have seen a lot of posts doing something similar in one way or another,


I am guessing they are now focused more on summoner as he will not recive as big changes as magus in the future. I imagine (and hope) they will brain storm magus from lvl 1 to lvl 20 taking our ideas and posts in consideration. But I agree at last some message telling us what they already decided to change would be nice


Huh, from the begining I thought that after striking with weapon and rolling for my spell attack next action would have only -5 penalty.


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And now I read a post where Kalaam had simillar idea to mine (spell strike nr.1 ) Great minds think alike, or just we both get imspired with 1e magus :D


Hello there, I am not be best theory crafter, nor developer but I am a player who love magus, and after playing it and reading post on forum I have gathered some ideas. Not only Spell strike feels kinda weak (as many other people pointed it out)but also Synthesis feels like "your class is weak so there is 3 ways to make it less suck " Instead of "there are 3 ways to make your character more epic" And it what Pizo is showing is character that is fighter first and caster second being worse option than fighter with wizard archetype yet giving us feats that only focus with magic together with specialization giving us mastery with weapons before spells (master spellcasting at lvl 19 is so late)

Also please don't take away sustaning steel please, I love this idea more than I love my kids that I don't have !!

I will try to update this post according to feedback and previous version will be archivised
Also bear in mind I am not native english speaker. Let's go !

I gathered my ideas in document but I will write them down here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WUY5_ZwiTFRHNpN-MFOnY5-1pc612lEAv3 xnOFiHfko/edit?usp=sharing)

Spell strike ideas -
2 ways I think are decent to improve it, I was kinda inspired by users "Doorslammer and Vali Nepjarson"

Idea nr.1 - One I think is best
You cast a spell placing it into one melee weapon or into your body, when you roll to hit with a melee strike you can dischatge your spell using the same result. As a reaction you can hold onto your spell for numbers of round equal to your int mod (min 0) Otherwise it will dissapear at the end of your turn.
Also limitation of " Cast a Spell that can target one creature or object" is lifted - this leaving magus more options to pick.

(Optional 1 - Attack draw some power from spell giving your weapon bonus equal to your int mod)
(Optional 2 - If its your highest spell slot you decrease rounds you can hold your spell by 1 round, if its your second highest spell slot it decrease by 2 rounds

Idea nr.2
You cast a spell placing it into one melee weapon or into your body, when you roll to hit with a melee strike you can replace of your cast actions with strike/ attack with melee weapon but your next attack in the same turn will have penalty of 3rd attack (-10 for normal weapons), but you still have to roll the way it is described in playtest.
(Optional: You can hold your spell as in nr.1)

I tihnk it is resonable to to give magus 6 spell slots because of how spells are valiuable to this class in form of 2/2/2. It is reasonable balanced

Synthesis
Shooting star

1 lvl = As free action you can increase effective range of spell by 30ft only if it is used with striking spell (for instance, if stored spell normaly have range of 30ft you can attack from range of 60ft and spell will be delivered) You can do it times equal to your int mod min 1 (or twice your int mod, let me know what's more balanced)

Because of how this work and most players will play with bow or something like that. Distance is key of this Synthesis.
If in future we will get 1 action spells and cantrips it can be edit from free action to 1 action without limited uses (or let me know if it feeds more like feat than synthesis)

6 lvl
Option 1 - You can increase your range of spells for free by twice it range, you can do it twice your mod (min 1) per day
This assumes that 1 lvl will be moved to feats - I belive this is balanced because of how other characters can double their range weapons for free at all time (ranger) where magus can do it only with spells with limited times.

Option 2 - You are able to imbue 2 projectiles with your magic at the same time, you have -2 to hit, if at last one projectile hit your target your spell is discharged. If both hit you can decided which creature is affected by your spell (you can do it times your int mod)

One of those options can be made into feat but without limitation of usage by your int.

Slide casting -
1 lvl = If you attack after moving as part of casting spell you get +1 to hit
(I am thinkig of fast moving character who is duelist and move fast and is flexible)

6 lvl = After you hit enemy with your attack you can add your spell lvl to your dmg you can do it times half your int mod
(I am torn apart between using spell lvl and int mod so any sugestions will be nice)

Sustaning steel -

1 lvl = your temporar hp stay for rounds equal half your int mod (it already have more usage because of 2 bonus spells and it can give you one more round with hp, having this also affects your decision making, if you don't get hit you can either waste your temporar hp by casting another spell or do something else during next round. If you decide to don't go with 2/2/2 I advice on giving x3 multiplier for spells and 1,5 for cantrips or focus spells

6lvl = You can cast shielda as free action if you used striking spell

Feats so far

2 lvl
Spirits sheath - It can hold items up to your int mod, and total bulk of them can't be more than half your int mod. When you imbue weapon with a spell you can choose one of currently stored in Spirit sheath
You can attack and Draw your weapon from your spirit sheath as free action during your attack action to discharge your spell only.

10 lvl
Comet spell Additionally you deal dmg equall to spell lvl around your target in radius of 5ft
Portal slide You have +1 ac until your next round if you teleported

That's all so far, I am wating for feedback what should be changed or if my ideas were good or bad.


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Honestly, your way doesn't sound or feel like magus, it feels like kinetics with weapon. So I would say personally it is kinda 2/10 idea for me.