Marik the Grigorian's page

The OPs pick was a really good one, but I think the Deathless feats should be given a good look. Think about how underpowered you are devoting four feats (Deathless Initiate, Deathless Master, Diehard, Endurance)for the purpose of remaining effective below 0 Hp. Zealot is good in it's own right but worth the investment, h3llz no, your up to 6 feats now. Same for haunted gnome feats.

The way I see it, if you use a hand with one weapon, you don't get to get extra attacks with the same hand using a different weapon. When attacking two-handed, you spent your time this round using both hands with the big hunk of a weapon you swing around wildly. Both hands have gone through all those 6 seconds the round represents.

I feel the same way. TWF is TWF, two weapon in two hands, not attack with whatever and follow up with a lesser whatever. That is will be more important to me when I sit down at my own table then RAW, but this rules forum so getting technical goes with the territory.

While we're on a light note I had some hilarious about using the proposed 'it doesnt matter if your hand was occuppied a second ago' logic. Anybody else see ridiculousness in like this

* Multi-armed Marilith wielding one Uber sword by juggling and using the multi-attack feat
* A bastard sword in two hands is now a bastard sword in off-hand.
* Monk can dual wield two weapons and then throw a unarmed strike in on top, and with multi-fighting every nameable part of his body is effectively an off-hand right?

I apologize if my use of a big word confused you.

They are not big words, They are just the wrong words. Terminology is important when discussing a text based system, and all brazened and insult laden insistence aside you still have not answered as to were this comes from.

The first line under TWF reads "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. " How is overly literal to draw from that, "you need a weapon in your hand"? And in that light, isnt your 'hands are irrelevant' stance the obscure one here?

As for kick, punch, and elbows, those are all apart of unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes are distinguished from weapon attacks, and natural attacks by raw and viable as off-hand attacks according to the unarmed entry of the combat chapter. Likewise armorspikes and double weapons can be used to make off-hand attacks as note in their descriptors. IE these item dont fit the system by there own nature but are specific adapted to do so: being used as off-hand attack, as light weapon, with regard to certain conditions stated in the descriptor, without which the eligibility would not exist.

Or at least that is how I interpret it.

@cfalcon, Those abilities dont work with a formula that can be exspessed without those mins and additions being called out, Improved NatArm does. So the min does not need to be explicitly (redundantly) stated. Again this [x for every y levels] structure is used through pathfinder and 3.5 material, with out any redundantly stated mins. Also, how can it be unreasonable to believe that they omitted a clarification, and at the same time likely that they just wrote the complete wrong thing? To be as you say "1,6,11,16" it would have to say "can be taken one additional time for every 5 levels the JohnDoeClass possess beyond first".

@Zuria,

I believe the intent was clarified to be similar to the Ability Increase evolutions,

I havent read the thread, but in a way the 2 are similar as is. They may have omitted the ability to take this at 1st as in lue of higher starting bonus, or they may have just dropped the ball. Since they both provide stacking stat bonus near the same power level, it would seem that they should be similar or the same. As far as I know the only other evos that can stack stats are the ones that increase a movement. I think we'll be seeing an ettra for Climb as well

That's incorrect. "Off-hand" refers to a secondary attack, no matter what the source, weapon, knee, armor spikes, etc.

Secondary attacks are use with nat attacks only. Where did you get this non-sense?

@ Rellen, I think it's cool that you are provoking both side of the issue to be thorough but it seem like a bit of a stretch to think that Improved nat arm progression works just like the ability increase progression when is worded not only in a different manner but, (like ability increase) worded in a specific format that is quite common in the game. It's just to much to consider this both error and coincidence.

But that all as written, if you and group really think it would be better as once plus X/Y go for it, you shouldnt have any trouble get support on the balance issue.

You can still improve AC with the Improved nat arm feat, sheild prof, and various magic items.

I believe the intent was clarified to be similar to the Ability Increase evolutions, so once at 1st and again at 5/10/15/20, but, surprise surprise, actually fixing broken things wasn't a priority when making changes from the final playtest version.

Ive seen a few comments like this on the board today could you tell me where they have these clarifications or any helpful, ettra-esc material for the APG?

Sorry but you are incorrect on the gauntlet attack still being considered an unarmed strike.

Per the PRD: "Gauntlet, Spiked: The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets."

Ironically you are considered armed while making an unarmed strike in some cases, but you right in any case. I was looking at standard gauntlets earlier when I wrote that.

Also of TWF it never says anything about the type of weapon in your primary hand as to whether it must be wielded one-handed or not. It only says "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon". If you wear a gauntlet on you off-hand and it is considered a free action to remove one hand from a 2-handed weapon I would have to say there is some possibility that you could wield a 2-handed weapon and get to use a gauntlet also to achieve TWFing.

It is not the weight or handedness of the primary weapon that is in question, but that TWF specifically refers to two separate penalties being applied, one to the weapon wielded in your primary hand and one to the weapon wielded in you off-hand. A two-hander can not be wield by either alone and therefor does not fit.

I been thinking a about a multi-headed evo and I think 2pts for an extra head seems on par with leg and arm evos. Maybe add a perseption bonus or go three pts and include immunity to flank.

As for RAW Im a bit confuse about the Bite as it is. It says in the evolution descriptor that an evo can only be taken once unless otherwise note. The Bite evo does not say that it can be taken a second time or multiple times, so they either neglected to add that or the starting evos dont count against you allowing the eidolon who's base form comes with bite to gain the x1.5 ability from bite. If the later is the case then a serpent could get 2 tail.

Also when does the 1.5 multiply apply, always, or only when the attack is made as a primary? This seems to override the standing rule that 1.5 is only applied when it is your only attack. Does it also override the damage multiplier(.5) when using bite as a secondary attack combined with weapons attacks?

It doesn't list a minimum, so it's once per every 5 levels (or fraction thereof). So, 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th.

I dont think it was a typo this is a really good evolution and it does not say one per 5, it says once for every five levels the summoner possesses. Just like in so many spell descriptors a fraction counts for nothing

Ex:

An arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels you possess, the acid, unless neutralized, lasts for another round (to a maximum of 6 additional rounds at 18th level), dealing another 2d4 points of damage in each round.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Using a gauntlet modifies unarmed strike damage but is still an unarmed strike which provokes an AoO, and since gauntlets are worn on the hand you cant combine a gauntlet with a two hander.

Aside from that, TWF specifically refers to a full round attack made with one weapon in your primary hand and a second weapon in your off-hand. No material is present for the use of a two-hander which is wield by both hands regardless of how it is being held after the attack is made.

Augment Summoning

Your summoned creatures are more powerful and robust.

Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).

Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
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Although eidolons are considered summoned creatures they are not brought forth using a spell of any kind. The "eidolon" class feature description leaves the nature of this conjuration vague saying simply that, (")the summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called and eidolon.(") or something very close to that, but no spell just the same.

In any case I cant image any DM going along with some sort of liberal interpretation where as the already insanely powerful eidolon is buffed using a feat that was intended to buff much smaller, temporary, spell consuming, companions.

No matter how you try to down play it, the eidolon is way OP. Yes it can be defeat just like everything else, and yes he is most of your class, but aside from it's weak saves, it's no more vulnerable then the fighter, or barbarian. Yet it still can make an absurd number of attacks (6 at lvl 5, up to 13 at lvl 7, and so on) to do more dmg then any barbarian or fighter of equal lvl. Likewise dmg output can easily be traded for utility.