Trashloot's page

Teridax wrote:

I feel grenades would work a lot better if the ones that dealt damage had a delay of 1 round, in exchange for much more damage. Instant bombs should be fine too, but the advantage to a delayed grenade is that it'd be a great tool for flushing enemies out of cover, which I think right now is fairly important given how easy it is for enemies to hide behind it all the time. If the enemy doesn't move, or is made to stay for some reason, then the much higher damage ought to frag them for sure, if they're chaff.

I actually gave this weapon a try during a playtest, and I was really pleased with the results. It was really fun and tactical to have one vesk soldier ready their gun around the corner, and have the other vesk soldier toss the delay grenade (goes off at beginning of user's next turn, 2d8 instead of 1d8 damage) to flush out the PC. It was a fun mental challenge of "do I think it's better to make a basic reflex save against 2d8 or just hope the strike against my AC misses".

I think these are the exact right kind of fun micro-challenges and hazards in a game like SF2E. I hope a weapon like this makes it into the final release.

THIS! I have played with something like this as well. It works great. And its also a good way to add value to a grenade. The enemy has to either move and "waste" an action / give up their position or they get on average a bit of damage. Personally i would add a flat damage value (1d8+4)to the grenade but 2d8 works as well.

Throwing a Grenade and therefore burning money, only to roll a 1 feels super bad.

Im so confused about Paizos direction here. It feels a bit like they want a ranged meta but they are not willing to enforce it in any way.

Many Spells and cantrips still have 30 foot range. So casters can't get in to proper range combat depending on their spell selection. 30 feet is the range your avery melee can move in one action. This is laughable.
I also think that casters should get a higher proficiency with pistols or a spell like true strike which allows them to use pistols/ simple guns even tho they lack dex. I think its necessary for casters to have acces to something with range increments.

Spaceships, Buildings and most cities favor close quarter combat. But you can easily live getting shot at in starfinder. So unlike the real life, where you still use guns in cqb, melee weapons are the king in starfinder (mostly because they still add the str bonus to damage).

The ranged soldiers area attacks are also pretty short range.

I think we need Starfinder exclusive actions/reactions which allow you to better enforce the ranged meta.
- There could be a reaction which allows you to shoot someone coming in to your range and then move up to (half) your speed.
- There could be a trait which adds forced movement to heavy weapons like the shotgun. Which shoves you 5 feet on a hit and 10 feet on a crit.
- Maybe we could add an action which allows you to shoot with a -2 penalty but then you are allowed to retreat for half your movement.

I think in general you should not be able to run at a gun line to melee them. I feel like Melee needs to be something tactical which is most usefull if you can properly flank the enemy.
I think guns should be able to shoot more but i also think that there should be a tradoff. Maybe everyone with a gun gets an Attack of oportunity but the attack only triggers at the end of the movement so that it is still viable to move from cover to cover.
I think it should be easier to keep enemies at range but i also feel like that you should be incentivized to run away if you get cought in melee. Maybe most weapons need the volley trait.

I know that you are talking about thematics here. But im honestly worried that a regular Melee build with a "reach weapon" or a shield build is to strong for starfinder.
Motivating Ring Tone gives you a nice speedboost to get to the enemy. A Mystic can put out a ton of healing and can easily keep you alive.
Ranged Enemies deal less damage than Melee Enemies. The Corpse Fleet Officer (Level 4) deals 2d6+3 (5-15) damage with is ranged weapon and 2d6+7 (9-19) Damage with his melee Weapon. The Aeon Guard (Level 3) only deals 1D8 damage with his laser Rifle. Both of those Ranged Attacks could get completely negated by the hardness of a basic shield. The Mystics vitality network recharges 4 HP per round which are basically free healing. (It costs 1 Action to transfer those HP). This means the enemy team needs to deal at least 5 damage per round to hurt your team.
Once you are in Range you just pummel them to death. You can add Strength to your damage which means you deal more damage then anyone using a gun. You can also easily Flank when you have a buddy in Melee Range. You can reactive Strike the enemy when they shoot. Otherwise they have to step twice in order to get out of your reach (reach weapon).
Because many enemies will be ranged combatants they will probably have a worse Fort save which means you can grapple them.

I really don't want this to be true but 2 Melees + 1 Mystic + Whatever might be the default party.

More on topic. The ranged meta introduces immersion problems for me as well. In a melee world you can always argue that you mostly parry the hit but you might get a small cut. When everyone is shooting guns and rockets and no one dies it feels like we are using nerf guns. Or maybe we just miss all the time xD. I always loved Halos Solution for that problem. You actually die relatively fast but you have a energy shield which helps you tank a lot of attacks. But you need to wait for it to recharge once it gets damaged to much. In Halo, the time to kill is simply slow enough that people can run up to you and melee you.
But this is not that big of a deal breaker for me.

Im not sure about that (but i haven't done the Math!). It feels like Operative excels at single target damage while soldier and Solarian excell at AOE Damage.

But seriously. The idea of balancing Starfinder and Pathfinder seems wild to me. Have you seen the earthquake spell? It either doesn't work inside of space stations and space ships or you cause an explosive decompression with a single spell.

Your animal Companions will die the moment you enter any area without atmosphere and please refrain from using a battle form, because your space suit (starfinder armor) gets absorbed in to the battle form and you die, because you can't breath.

If we balance SF2e for Starfinder we also need to errata every problematic thing from Pathfinder 2e. All Battleforms, Animal Companions, the Animal Barb and the Wildshape Druid would need the cosmic trait. We would need to have a design pass on any Pathfinder 2e item, Spell and whatever to make sure that there are no weird interactions with the core assumptions of the Starfinder Setting.

I think Paizo really needs to clarify their stance on how far the compatibility goes.

I don't see how this is more messy then computers and piloting. I mean Piloting is a Lore in PF2e and a Skill in SF2e. We are already having the problem that SF2e has the same amount of skill increases as PF2e while having more skills. And lets be honest you will always have to convert something when you want to pull content from one game and implant it to the other game. The Druids animal companion dies the moment a space suit is needed. Sylvan is almost useless on a space station. Polymorph Spells kill you because they absorb your space suit and don't protect you from space and earthquake is either useless or absolutely broken depending on if it can rupture the hull of a spaceship. So i think having to switch Nature to Mysticism is the last of your problems ^^". (I totally understand your point. I just want to offer a counter point.)

As for recall knowledge: You could just rearange the recall knowledge Categories.

Computer:
- Constructs

Crafting:
- Constructs

Society:
- Dragons (Dragons are just Aliens (see Triaxus))
- Undead (Undead are just Aliens (see Eox))
- Celestials (They are basically Aliens now. Abadar is a business man.)
- Fiends (They are basically Aliens now. Hell Drives are outdated tech.)
- Monitors
- Humanoids

Mysticism:
- Aberrations (Some of them could fall under Society now because many of them would just be aliens now.)
- Astral (this is a really small category)
- Dreams (this is a really small category)
- Ethereals (this is a really small category)
- Time (this is a really small category)
- Shade (there is only 1)
- Beasts
- Elementals
- Fey
- Spirits

Survival:
- Animals
- Beasts
- Fungus
- Plants
- Oozes (I understand when you want to put them in Mysticism)

I think you can basically throw everything you can talk to in to society. And Religion is basically just an aspect of society anyways. I never liked the fact that survival couldn't be used to indentify animals because nature needed a reason to exist. If we remove Nature we could finally give Survival a purpose outside of Tracking and Subsisting.
My list could obviously be improved. But Society and Survival could function as counter balances for Mysticism.

Not sure if anyone else has read the "shards of the glass planet" scenario yet but im even more confused now. It seems a bit random when Life / Physical Science works and when it doesn't. Im at the point where i would advocate towards removing it. It feels like a "remember Starfinder 1"-Thing

Please hear me out. I love the idea of a mechanic. But i think the mechanic should be split up in to different ideas and implemented not as a class.

Almost any hacking, crafting and repairing ability from the mechanic could become a cool skill feat. And it makes sense in a setting like starfinder to allow any class to specialize in tech.

The drone which is arguably the coolest part of the mechanic could become something like an animal companion which could be taken by anyone. If you really need to have players spend class feats for something like this, you could make it a dedication like the beast master. But think it would be better to have a tech item called the rigging kit or drone control unit which takes up one of your hands which allows you to use the command an animal action to grant actions to your minion drones.
Drones could just be sold as tech items. And depending on the devs whishes drones could either share or not share your MAP. But the action economy balances itself.
This would also solve the weird SF1 problem where a spy drone was either a cheap tech item or a custom build class feature from your mechanic. It felt really bad to see that a cheap drone could to the same things your mechanics custom drone could do. And you always had to justify why the mechanics drone wa better. Im not talking about combat here. Im talking about the fact that it was a major choice for the mechanic to install a camera module on his drone while the cheap spy drone came with a fully functional camera.

TLDR: I think making the mechanic is own class misses out on cool skill feats and will result in artifical restrictions on normal tech interactions to make the mechanic feel special.

Oh damn. Im playing PF2e since release but i never realised we had Vehicle Rules xD. Thank you for the clarification. (I still think this could be explained better in the playtest.)

Is it really worth it to use the 2 Action Drive Action to save a check when tradeoff is that the action becomes more risky and you can't turn? This seems not clever to me. But i haven't played around with it.

I kinda like this. Spraying with your weapon is way easer than actually trying to hit something (auto fire). A flamethrower, Grenade Launcer and Missile Launcher is not exactly a precision instrument (Area Attack). And a shotgun is arguable the best self defense weapon because you just point in the general direction of the enemy and fire (area fire). I think it makes sense that those things are effective for people who are not properly trained (proficient).

I don't know why thinking differently will help, instead of all is melee, it's all is ranged. I don't see a huge difference between Sf-2E and PF-2E, they both operate the same just the core weapon group is switched so we can see what an mostly gunslinger (like) party can do and so far it seems more free-form when ti comes to shooting/attacking things. Which makes casters at 6 hit points more of a liability then before but that is the nature of giving everyone a boom stick that shoot far! Expecting Dex to be king over Str instead is the only major change I feel.

I think differently. Just look at the Field Test Map with the datacenter. This is just a super open map without much cover. Its super boring to play there. But You could easily make this map more interesting if you added a bit of cover and a few places to break line of sight.

Feats like Hair Trigger Punish you for running up without a plan and anyone can now hide behind a corner with a readied gun. You can be the worst shooter in history and your shotgun / framthrower still hurts. You have to get creative in your approach.

In PF2e my players and i usually just flank the enemy. This game has a ton of options to get clumsy or other penalties on to the enemy. So you want to find different ways to set up your kills without just circling every enemy.

Grenades don't have a fixed DC but scale with your class dc. This means that every class can use cheap grenades, area and automatic attacks to gun down hordes of smaller enemies. But i think it will be hard to judge if it is worth to leave the safety of your cover in order to deal bige AOE Damage.

I think this will play totally different if you can stop yourself from falling in to PF2e patterns.

So, I can get behind the idea that we shouldn't be losing our minds just because our Starfinder games don't play like Pathfinder, which thankfully nobody seems to be doing. I similarly agree that if we're going to be playtesting, it would be more interesting for the purpose of useful data collection to use a variety of battle maps and make use of the full range of tools given to us. While PF2e and SF2e are meant to be compatible with one another (more so than Pathfinder and that other wizard game), Starfinder definitely ought to feel like a game that's fresh and different where it counts, so we should definitely lean into that gun-based combat and those flying ancestries.

However, a large part of the above post also reads as "please contrive your scenarios and have your players bend over backwards to paper over the glaring problems of some of the playtest classes", which to me sounds like the exact opposite of what a playtest should entail.

Specifically, the OP talks about the Solarian and the Soldier, which as more people have been sharing their playtest experiences are standing out as the two least functional classes in the crop. It's not difficult to read the between the lines and see the issues the OP is trying to redirect us away from: when I read "make sure to build maps with lots of cramped spaces and side routes so the Solarian can sneak up on the enemy", I see "the Solarian can't adequately close gaps by themselves, and will need help from the GM, perhaps even specially-drawn battle maps, just to function in that respect". This is the kind of problem I want to highlight through playtesting, not hide, and any QA tester worth their salt will tell you that one of the most important aspects of making sure a product is fit for purpose is to specifically test out edge cases and see how the product holds up to scrutiny.

So please, do in fact place your Solarian in a field 100 feet away from a sniper and see how they fare. Have your Solarian face up to some of the level 1 ranged flying enemies...

What do you mean with contrived scenarios? (not really a spoiler but be warnde) There is a flying enemy in the playtest Adventure "A cosmic Birthday" in a room with a ceiling height of 40 feet. Assuming your Solarian is at least 5 feet tall and the enemey is at least 5 feet tall as well we have a maximum distance of 30 Feet which is exactly the range of your ranged option (and all short range spells) thats what i mean when i say we need to think about this game when we design our maps. If the Designers had chosen 50 feet ceilings the enemy would easily outrange 30 feet cantrips and the solarion. But a 40 Feet Ceiling is fine.

Please don't be annoyed by me saying that this is not PF2e. I mean that this is entirely new game and that we should look at the playtest like a game which is seperated from PF2e as much as possible.
The devs said that this game will be compatible with pfe and for some reason they are talking about PF Classes fighting alongside SF classes. But i think this should be viewed in the same light as Pathfinder 1 being compatible with DND 3.5 / 3.

More importantly we should focus on the fact that we need to build our playtest encounters around the intended meta of SF2e. This means that we need maps which have enough cover and line of sight blockers to allow solarions to sneak up on enemy soldiers. I think we should look at XCOM maps (newer games) and take inspiration from them to facilitate flanking and tactical aproaches.
The weapons in SF2e seem to have relatively short ranges. But considering that we are less likely to fight in an open field it might not be a problem. Many SF Fights will take place in cramped star ship corridors or busy urban enviroments. I think we should get inspiration from real life and video game close quarter combat szenarios. (Video from the game Door Kickers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxD1BxkAZ3k)

I think we should forget PF2e Classes for a hot second and focus on potential Starfinder Parties. Mystic has really nice healing abilities which should be considered when talking about the durability of the other SF Classes. The fact that the witchwarper gets access to a mighty heal spell (motivating ringtone) tells me that we should expect our casters to supply at least a bit of healing for the front line. Mystic was described as a healer (not a supporter).
When we talk about solarians movement and gap closing abilities we should consider the fact that we have 2 casters which can easily provide a +10 Feet speed boost with motivating ringtone and a ton of other options like the envoys second level feat get in there.

We should also be creative in how we approach our groups tactics. This is not PF2e melee mode. We can have a Solarian or Soldier carry a Riot shield while a teammate throws a 10 credit smoke grenade in the enemies face to provide concealment. If you delay your turn correctly the operative could shoot at an enemy before the smoke goes up and then lie in wait with hair trigger to shoot at everything that comes through the smoke. Area Attacks and Automatic weapons don't care for concealment and some area attacks can easily circumvent cover. You could use a smoke grenade to generate concealment and follow up with a nice round of frag grenates, flame throwers and rocket launchers. When the enemy starts its turn they either have to move out of the smoke or deal with concealment.

TLDR: Don't force this game in to a PF2e mindset. Be open and creative. Play the same encounter multiple times and try to figure out other approaches. And most importantly: HAVE FUN :D.

Can't we just allow the Solarian to use Strength for Thrown Weapons to hit and make the Solar flare something you throw at the enemy ? Solar Flare already adds Full Strength to damage. Also allow Solar Flare to profit of of handwraps and we are gucci. This would negate the inherent need for dex and give the solar flare proper range increments.

I think defy gravity is meant to glide over difficult terrain and stuff. It is not your default flying option. But i see your point.

I think its fine that Solarian needs a jetpack or fly spell in order to catch up with flyers. They could also just use a gun. (Or Solar Flare gets propper range increments.) Not everyone needs a solution for every problem. You have a party of 4+ after all.

This is obviously "too good to be true".

I don't agree. But i do agree that the armor only applies the Item Bonus when being engulfed. Because paizo did the same weird formating in the polymorph trait.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=127
Everything after: "If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell" only applies to battle forms. I wish they would make this much clearer by saying something like. "Apply the following changes if you are engulfed: "

Back on topic:

This happens exactly once or maybe twice per fight if at all. The enemy graps you, gets stung by the armor and it will probably not grapple you again. We also need to remember that Full Plate wearing Martials are rarely the target of grapples. You mostly want to grapple lightly armored mages who can't easily escape. The warpriest would be a good candidate for this rune because they get medium armor and are still priority targets. Everything else has just to high of an Attack / Athletics / Acrobatics stat to easily escape your grabs.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1838
It also applies MAP. And the action, when you actively attack the enemy, doesn't let you escape the grab. So you would perform your escape with an map of -5.

It is a really good item but it is extremely niche in its use case. You also need to constantly upgrade the rune for it being useful. Sure on level 6 it is really good but you would probably not be able to buy it "on curve". If your are following the Treasure per Level table then you would get ~ 125 in raw gold on level 6. You are just coming off of buying your armor potency rune on Level 5. Its more likely that you will buy this rune when it is a few level behind. And then its Attack bonus is not that special anymore. And lets not forget that you might never get grappled or engulfed after buying the rune.

I hope the remaster gives tables on gold prices for upgrading item dcs. Cool loot only being effective for a small band of levels before they become paperweights is a real bummer. I'm fine with item scaling requiring my entire portion of treasure gold, just let me know what that looks like. I don't want my Ring of Ram that my character received from besting the Crypt King to become a small contribution to a later purchase in the story....I'd rather it be a constant bit of visual and mechanical storytelling on my PCs past deeds. I understand if that can't be free, but the knowledge of how to accomplish that should be codified. Viva la revolucion! Make non consumables permanent!

Most classes don't use their class dc at all. And your class dc can never be overpowered. All items should default to your class dc if theirs is lower if you ask me.

Probably a bigger change but i want to have scaling class skills. Feels weird to have to invest 3 Skill increases in to athletics only to feel like a fighter. I would love to use my Skill increases for RP and Flavour instead of either not using combat maneuvers or "having" to keep them on curve.

Can we remove feats like eye for numbers and instead make useful feats ?
There are some feats which actively hurting the game by implying that you can't do basic things without the feat (like eye for numbers or glean contents or the rogue feat plant evidence).
Lets reduce feat bloat and bring in some good once.

Survival desperately needs a few feats for situations where you are not in the wildernes. Maybe an automatic scout action like the automatic avoid notice from Stealth. And maybe a feat that allows you to have your full rest and daily prep without needing to sleep (once) but you get Fatigued as a trade off.
Or a feat which allows you o regain hit points as if you had rested for 8 hours after resting for 2 (or 4 if it works for your party) hours just so that we have an alternative to leveling medicine every game.
The Natural Medicine line needs love too.

Skill ranks. Being able to really customize how many points you want to put in skills and being able to spread them out was cool.

Agreed. You have very few skill increases in PF2e and you can't level int to get more. You only get trained skills which are a bit useless when the dcs are designed around you increasing your profficiency.

In combat resource generating classes. Not sure what to call them really but solarian, vanguard, and evolutionist are my favorite classes in starfinder, existing in that middle ground between casters and martials that's really fun. Juggling points in different ways is very engaging imo. I worry that slightly more complicated mechanics like those won't fit with the simpler design of 2e (like swashbuckler).
Augmentations. I...

I honestly think that this is not a problem. PF2e has already classes like the oracle which juggle their curse progression. Or the Magus whith his spell strike which needs to be recharged mid combat.

I get that paizo wants to make both systems fully compatible but i really hope that they add some feats or something that allows characters to take more Skill increases.
Or maybe you could grant classes automatic skill increases for skills they use, like the inventor has in PF2e.

I mean we don't know what you roll to drive a mech / jeep / spaceship but its safe to say that you want a few side skills to feel like a Star Finder Character.

The only problem is that many things which rolled against other skills roll against auto scaling skills now. A "low" bluff skill is virtually useless because sense motive is part of Perception in PF2e which gets automatic skill increases.

Same goes for Stealth. Intimidate doesnt get compared to the enemies intimidate but against their Will save. Combat Maneuvers use Athletics in PF2e.

What im trying to say is that you need to max out many of the skills you want to use because you can't really hope for enemies with low stats. And you can't increase your Int to get more Skill points in PF2e. (You only get a trained skill.)

So lets say you play a soldier and you want to use your amazing intimidate ability. That means that you have to put your 3rd, 7th and 15th level skill icrease in intimidate for it to have the best chance of working. (Not much different to Starfinder).
Lets say you want to grapple an enemy from time to time. This means you have now locked in your 5th, 9th and 17th Skill increase.
You have now locked in 6 out of 9 Skill increases. Your first Flavour Skill increase can be spent at 11th level followed by 13th and 19th.

I love PF2e to death but i will miss the ability to invest a bit in Piloting, Stealth, Culture, Medicine or Bluff if nothing changes.

---

I think they will at least partly redesign skills because Arcana, Religion, Occultism and Nature are not as usefull in Starfinder because we don't differentiate between different Spell Lists (Arcana, Divine ...) in the future and we need piloting somewhere. (Lets hope its not just a random lore skill).