Tonydelapinata's page

Hey guys,

I recently installed Foundry VTT after having tried Fantasy Grounds Unity. I already like the latter, but at a 50$ point and with the attention it is drawing, after investigating a litte I decided to go for Foundry too.

Trying to "roll" a monk, I noticed that the AC bonus class feature wasn't automatically added like the rest of features, so I dragged it manually from the compendium into the character sheet. The AC bonus was then automatically added, but it resets after restarting Foundry for some reason (the class feature remains listed).

I have only installed the Pathfinder module so far, no addons. Does anyone experienced with the software know of a workaround? I admittedly expected Foundry's automation to not be on par with that of Fantasy Grounds since it has had very little time to catch up, but given how many modules there are and the inherent flexibility of the software I imagine it could be possibe to fix issues like this one.

It seems to me that the conditions that increase the DC apply to everyone where those that give a bonus or penalty only apply to some characters. By doing so it makes it easier for the GM because he only has to give out the base DC and let the players apply the modifier for their own actions.

Climbing is a good example of this the base DC is determined by the condition everyone will face. So the party needs to climb up a ladder which is a DC 10 Climb roll. The rogue in the party has a +15 bonus so decides to take the penalty of -5 to get to the top faster. The paladin in full plate and no ranks in climb on the other hand has a penalty of -2 because of armor even after adjusting for STR. If the paladin uses the accelerated climb chances are he is not going to make it and has a good chance of falling. The other member of the party probably fall somewhere between the paladin and the rogue and some may choose to try and get up the ladder quickly while other may not. This way the GM can assign a single DC and those climbing faster can apply the penalty to themselves without the GM having to give a tailored DC to every character.

Pondering a little more, there are some instances in which a DC increase could apply to particular characters.

Think of the classic situation in which the party has to spend the night in the wilderness and the take turns for watches. Some are asleep (increased DC, not penalty, as per the rules) and some aren't (regular DC).

That is not to say the differentiation between individual penalties and general DCs isn't practical though!

It seems to me that the conditions that increase the DC apply to everyone where those that give a bonus or penalty only apply to some characters. By doing so it makes it easier for the GM because he only has to give out the base DC and let the players apply the modifier for their own actions.

Climbing is a good example of this the base DC is determined by the condition everyone will face. So the party needs to climb up a ladder which is a DC 10 Climb roll. The rogue in the party has a +15 bonus so decides to take the penalty of -5 to get to the top faster. The paladin in full plate and no ranks in climb on the other hand has a penalty of -2 because of armor even after adjusting for STR. If the paladin uses the accelerated climb chances are he is not going to make it and has a good chance of falling. The other member of the party probably fall somewhere between the paladin and the rogue and some may choose to try and get up the ladder quickly while other may not. This way the GM can assign a single DC and those climbing faster can apply the penalty to themselves without the GM having to give a tailored DC to every character.

This is an interesting view on it. I can definitely see the advantage of everyone applying modifiers to the roll according to their particular circumstances.

Forgive me a slight tangential highjack, but you all seem to have the correct mathematical and mechanical know-how for the subject.

Is there any complication or rules/mechanics problem with shifting a penalty and DC on the fly?

Quick example: monster had an AC of 14, some debuff is on your character that causes a minus 2 to hit. Does it matter if you subtract the two from your attack bonus? Or could you just as easily say that for you the monster now has an AC 16?

My groups have done this over the years with no issue, but there's always been a snag in the back of my mind saying we're missing something. I'm not good enough with probabilities to know if this is an issue or not.

I guess another way to say this is, is a debuff on you not equivalent to a buff on your enemy?

My GM did something similar a few days ago with a climbing check. Increased the DC rather than giving me a penalty as per the rules.

For that particular roll I am talking about, there was no difference. But, as shown by Diego in one of the posts above, there are problems when a range of results is expected (jumps in which the result dictates exactly how far you go, for example.)

Obviously, a debuff on you would make it harder for you to hit anyone, while a buff on enemy would make that particular enemy harder to hit for anyone. But if you are talking about particular rolls, there could be some complications depending on the roll and other circumstances.

Quote:

Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start.

As written, it is the unmodified DC that is multiplied as it says "the base DC is equal to the distance ... or four times the height. These DCs double ....". As the second phrase follows immediately the definition of the base DCs and says "these DCs", to mee it seems clear that it is speaking of the base DCs.

The modifiers are listed well after that paragraph.

Those crazy, imperialist, efficient, civilized (for the time) Romans of old... ;-)

Yeap, had a look at that paragraph this evening. When refering to doubling DCs it refers clearly to the previous explanation of base DCs. As written, I think it is clear.

No beef against Romans =) old or new. May Jupiter bless good order and tower shields!

I think it comes down to whether the task is more difficult than usual (increased DC jumping without a run up), or you're not as skillful as usual (penalty to the check for climbing quickly)

I didn't see this reply. Makes sense. Thanks!

Tonydelapinata wrote:

And here I thought I was the only one in the world that used the word "malus" for penalties... =p.

Italian, so Bonus and Malus are polar opposites for me. ;-)

Spanish here. Must be the latin roots. Those crazy, imperialist Romans of old...=).

But I digress. Looking at the definition of DC, it is only refered too as a measure of how difficult the task is.

It is not defined as an absolute measure, so I understand it could be relative to the approach (running start jump vs standing jump), one's state (asleep vs awake) and other things.

I think I will use the default rules. I still need to find out if the modifiers to acrobatic check DCs (slippery surfaces, etc.) are applied before or after doubling/quadrupling for jumps without a running start.

Tonydelapinata wrote:

About the standing jumps, I was thinking for a minute yesterday and believe that a -1 penalty to the roll for each foot of distance would have practically the same effect than doubling the DC while being more coherent (both between different skills and with DC being an nonrelative measure) and simplifying the math. For high jumps, the penalty would increase proportionally.

The problem is that the roll result determines the distance jumped.

Let's say I want to jump 20' to bypass a creek and have a check modifier of +10.

With a running start, the DC is 20 and I succeed with a die roll of 10+ and with a roll of 1-9 I am more than halfway through the river and I can get there with a single swimming check.

With a standing jump, my DC is 40, I can never succeed, but I drop in the river between 6 (11/2) and 15 (30/2) from my starting point. Again, I can reach the other side of the river with a single swimming check.

Now we do the same, but taking a malus to the roll instead of increasing the DC.

No difference for the jump with the starting run.

Fort the standing jump the DC stays 20, but my skill becomes -10. With a die roll of 1-10, I stay in the starting square. With a die roll of 11-20 I move 1-10 ft. Half of the time I can't cross the river with a single swim check.

The two systems aren't equivalent.

And here I thought I was the only one in the world that used the word "malus" for penalties... =p.

Yeah, I see the problem. I suppose I would have found it at some point while testing it, but your post came before that. Thanks!

Usually it doesn't matter at all whether it's a skill penalty or a DC increase. I guess an exception might be the 'double the DC' effect for long jumping without a run-up, where other increases to the DC could also be doubled, whereas penalties to your skill would not.

Quote:

I am thinking of modifying these rules as explained so that they are more intuitive

I would argue that any improvement to the rules would be more confusing than leaving them as they are, because players can look up the current rules on the internet or in their rulebook, rather than having to memorise special house rules.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Yep. That makes sense. I can see how some people could be put off by that. Even if the change is meant to make the system more intuitive (which would reduce the need of consulting the rules, but not eliminate it), the people who already know the rules as they are could get confused.

I think I will toy with it nonetheless.

About the standing jumps, I was thinking for a minute yesterday and believe that a -1 penalty to the roll for each foot of distance would have practically the same effect than doubling the DC while being more coherent (both between different skills and with DC being an nonrelative measure) and simplifying the math. For high jumps, the penalty would increase proportionally.

It might not be for everyone, that much I agree with! But please, keep your ideas coming. They are very welcome.

Edit: Do additions to the acrobatics DC (like jumping from a slippery base) double too? Or ar they applied afterwards? That is a good question! Will try to find an answer!

1. Accelerated Climbing is a flat penalty to the roll, so the effect is the same regardless of the DC of the climb. The result of the check is dual, either failure or success.

2. Acrobatic modifier for the lack of a running start when jumping instead is variable, depending on the distance/height you want to jump. The result of the check determines how far you jump.

3. The Perception modifier you apply when sleeping is, again a flat modifier. The result of the check is dual, either failure or success.

They aren't coherent because they want to depict different things. When long jumping you can have a "partial" success, while with Climbing and Perception you succeed of fail.

Thanks for the response!

It still is a little troublesome, though. Climbing can also have partial results in a way (you need to fail by 5 or more to actually fall, similar to long jumps in which, if you fail by 4 or less, you can try and grab the edge of the hypothetical chasm).

Even though they depict different things, I think we can find similarities in general: hurrying something up can make you sloppy (think of penalties to accelerated climbing or stealth). Having a handicap should impose...Well, a handicap (penalty) to the roll (lethargic or asleep characters, for example, could take a penalty to the check instead of having the DC increase). That makes much more sense to me.

All this is, of course, under the assumption that a DC represents an objective and consistent measure of how difficult a task is, independent of skill.

I ask because I am thinking of modifying these rules as explained so that they are more intuitive. I am curious if someone else has done the same or has a different take.

I am a little confused. Some skills seem to use one approach or another, but it makes little sense to me. For example:

1. Climb. Accelerated climb. Penalty to check. You are hurrying, so your moves can be a little careless. Got it.
2. Acrobatics. Long jump. DC doubles if you don't have a running start. In this case no penalty, just increased DC although the chasm didn't become wider.
3. Perception. Asleep perceiver. Increased DC. Same as example above.

I could go on, but I think I got the point across.

Is there any real difference between increasing DC or just applying a penalty, though?

Is there any other way to make sense out of this system that I am missing?

I am trying to learn it and some coherence would help. If not, I suppose I'll just have to learn each particular case the hard way =/.