Thoran's page

Continued from the previous post, the reply button apparently only copies so much.

You are arguing that the same Fighter who routinely uses a 12 pound Halberd with no problem might be hindered by the 2 pound combination of a dagger and a spiked gauntlet?

No, I don't believe I'm arguing that at all, in fact, I never even mentioned Halberds. My point is, as it always was, the 2 pound combination of a dagger and a spiked gauntlet is less efficient than the 1 pound spiked gauntlet on its own.

So, your stance is that it should take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to use a Simple Weapon in a way that as far as I can tell (and no one has produced applicable rules to disprove this) is perfectly acceptable by RAW?

Again, no, you seem to like putting words into my mouth (or my posts as the case may be). This is a gray area in the RAW, basically a PC who has managed to have 2 readied weapons in one hand. I'm fine with somebody doing that, but there are going to be penalties for it when they go to attack, the same as there would be if a PC said that they have large hands and could easily hold two daggers pommel to pommel. I think a simple feat to overcome these penalties is actually being rather generous. Otherwise, you WILL get that PC who wields two spiked gauntlets and 2 daggers each made of different special materials and each with different enchantments to effectively wield 4 readied weapons at once; or the PC who insists that if Fighter A can do it with daggers then his fighter, who is stronger, can do it with shortswords. This gray area is exactly what Rule 0 was intended to resolve, and I merely gave my opinion on how I would resolve it.

Thoran wrote:

You seem to be under the common miss-assumption that an attack roll is the same as throwing one punch or swinging once with a sword, it is not. An attack roll represents several attempts at hitting your foe over a 6 second time frame, feints, parries, reposes, etc.

That is a fantastic opinion and perhaps even a quite cinematic way of looking at attacks, but it is not RAW.

Sounds like you need to get more familiar with the RAW then. From the PHB p.139 "An attack roll represents your attempts to strike your opponent. It does not represent a single swing of the sword, for example. rather it indicates whether, over several attempts in the round, you managed to connect solidly."

Thoran wrote:

Sure you can hold a dagger and throw a punch, but there are a lot of combat situations I can think of that holding that dagger is going to limit your options.

Actually no, not at all, holding a dagger in a hand that is covered in a metal glove with spikes would actually make you a lot more dangerous and versatile than using either one by itself.

Perhaps, but you can't attack with two weapons at once, and in a combat situation, having more options is not always best, having one weapon and and knowing exactly what you can do with it allows you to focus. If you looking for openings to attack with a gauntlet at the same time as openings to attack with a dagger, you are once again, not fighting optimally.

Thoran wrote:

What if your opponent had blocked your first punch and now your arm is out wide, but if you could open your hand you might be able to turn it into a backhand and rake the spikes across his face, but you're holding a dagger and your hand and wrist aren't in a position to do this, so no go.

Again here you are basing your argument on rules that don't exist. One attack roll represents one attack. Meeting/Beating your opponent's AC is the only thing that determines success. How you want to interpret it cinematically has no bearing on RAW.

Again here your poor understanding of the rules is causing you to look foolish, I've already pointed out how your one attack roll = one swing theory is wrong.

Thoran wrote:

As far as attacking with a spiked gauntlet that is holding another weapon, I'd say that while it may be possible, it's definitely not optimal. There really aren't any hard and fast rules covering this, but if a player wanted to do this in my game, I'd say that "spiked gauntlet holding a light weapon" is an exotic weapon that they aren't proficient with unless they take the appropriate feat.

Seriously? Go into your kitchen and grab a knife and an oven mitt. Put on the mitt, grab the knife and throw a punch... it's not brain surgery guys.

I'm also in the camp that moving your hands on the haft of a polearm is "not an action." I do however think you should lose the advantage of your Reach till your next turn, though it's still in your hands ready to go.

--Pop Vrocks & Cola!

You seem to be under the common miss-assumption that an attack roll is the same as throwing one punch or swinging once with a sword, it is not. An attack roll represents several attempts at hitting your foe over a 6 second time frame, feints, parries, reposes, etc. Sure you can hold a dagger and throw a punch, but there are a lot of combat situations I can think of that holding that dagger is going to limit your options.

What if your opponent had blocked your first punch and now your arm is out wide, but if you could open your hand you might be able to turn it into a backhand and rake the spikes across his face, but you're holding a dagger and your hand and wrist aren't in a position to do this, so no go. Heck, maybe the extra pound of metal you're holding slows you down enough that your opponent can just barely get out of the way of your blows.

I never said it would be impossible to do, just that it is in no way an optimal way to fight and bringing in the non-proficient penalties are a good way to represent this.

As far as attacking with a spiked gauntlet that is holding another weapon, I'd say that while it may be possible, it's definitely not optimal. There really aren't any hard and fast rules covering this, but if a player wanted to do this in my game, I'd say that "spiked gauntlet holding a light weapon" is an exotic weapon that they aren't proficient with unless they take the appropriate feat.