Oloch

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>While we intend to keep the necromancer firmly as a spellcaster rather than pushing it to “gish” territory,

well i am unfathomably disappointed, literally all i wanted from Necromancer was to gish with it, I do not want to do a "occasional scythe strike" that is not only boring but is unfulfilling as all hell, i do not see why their cannot just be a subclass that gives it martial proficiencies and martial focused feats that are good instead of being a glorified ancestry feat, a poorly scaling strike and a focus spell that is way to late into progression to be useful (which is also just heroism made into a focus spell)
why can it not be? clearly their was an outpour of requests for it
its sad to see a class i was so exited for completely kill my desire to play it before its even out

also no mention of Runesmiths forced need for a free hand?


Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

I've seen a fair amount of Runesmith discussion, especially about Damage Output and Hand Use. However, there's something that I'm only just now realizing.

Do you guys think you're putting your runes on your OWN stuff?

I mean, there's nothing STOPPING you from doing that. I just feel like the intent is super, super clear that you're giving the runes to your allies.

Everything in the playtest makes more sense from that perspective. The game heavily encourages shield + free hand. Multiple rune invoking abilities care about specific positioning of allies to adjacent enemies/splash damage/etc. Your turns are built around stacking together runes to blow them all up at once in a big combo- and that's better when you're working with your allies.

I feel like Runesmiths are very much designed as a "support martial", ala the SF2E soldier. I'm kinda surprised to not see people engage with the class in the same way.

Am I off base? How have you thought of the Runesmith's role?

support is generally a less popular role and so people naturally gravitate towards what it can do for itself, i personally like the fact i can buff myself with runes and make people explode because that's cool+fun

you can give a man a toolkit but what he does with that toolkit (and what he wants to do with that toolkit) is for him to decide and there is an opening for playing Runesmith as a non-support, its nice to not be locked to support but i might think that because i dislike playing support


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TLDR: Necromancer Gishing could be good and it gets close but its various feats and support for the playstyle fall flat, usually due to poor scaling and lacking power, personally i think the best step forward would be to give it a Warpriest style Subclass that gives it a better base and to buff and alter the feats to be stronger.

The Long: At a Base its chassis isn't the best for Melee, only light armour, simple weapons, standard caster progression, its got a good bonus because of the spell list that has some nice buffs but generally you have to spend a lot of feats fixing these innate deficiencies, so for smoother play and especially early level play (which is where melee necro is at its weakest) a Warpriest subclass to fix this would sort all of these issues.

and now Feats

Reaper Weapon Familiarity: this is an Ancestry Feat in the trenchcoat of a Class feat, what on earth is it doing here? i don't have any feedback other than just delete this and replace it with something else because it is entirely redundant with ancestry and general feats, Class feats should generally be better than both of those things.
also given that most of the weapons are strength based, it kinda highlights how much a Melee Necro needs a way to get at least Medium armour (also i like fully armoured Necromantic Death Knights)

Draining Strike: this is pretty good and i like it, however it does have a scaling issue and an action economy issue, if you have already setup a thrall to destroy with this then all is well but as a two action attack its pretty bad compared to most other two action attacks, personally i think their should be a way to pump a focus point into it (or just make a separate focus spell to make a big strike or something) to give it a boost at later levels.

Osteo Armaments: admittedly i don't entirely see the point of this feat, its awesome on a thematic level i love the idea but If i wanted to focus on Melee i would already have a weapon with runes, so i would be just spending actions on something i don't need and is slightly worse, at best if Enemy resistances are being a pain but you are still a spellcaster and have ways of getting around that, its too cool an idea to just scrap but it needs to do something better than just be a backup plan imo

Level 12: while not strictly a gish feat, they all to some degree make The Necromancer more tanky which is appreciated, no real complaints here

Bind Heroic Spirit: this is a level 18 feat, good Christ that is bad, i get it, its a focus point version of 9th level Heroism that spawns a thrall when you strike, but this comes FAR too late in the level to be meaningful and, this feat should come far earlier and should scale with the player instead of just being at max level only, also i think it should take a note from Animists playbook and add damage instead of adding to saves, attack increases enable melee, damage incentivises melee and all that.

I've seen this feedback pop up a few times and i hope Paizo takes into consideration as i really like Gishes and Necromancer is so close to being a good one it just needs some love