TheAuldGrump's page

Cr1ms0nsh4d3 wrote:

I'm going to be selling all my Paizo material, over $1000 worth and I will not be buying another thing from this company. Not only have they endorsed Ninja Division and assured us they would make sure they followed through, they are blatantly not making us customers a priority. This will probably be deleted because it speaks truth.

I think its a little quick to condemn Paizo so readily.

This is a legal issue involving a large amount of $$$ and multiple companies and multiple overlapping contracts.

These kinds of things take months to resolve, not days or weeks. Given that I suspect 1 party in the agreement (Ninja Division) to be uncooperative and non-communicative this can't be easy.

Form a post below it sounds like Paizo is communicating with the manufacturer (Archon) directly and trying to find a solution that's equitable to both companies. That sounds like they are following through to me.

Given that any such agreement is likely to involve both companies losing money out of there own pockets I'd hardly call Paizo's actions "blatantly not making us customers a priority", that's a bit strong.

Selling your stuff is your decision, but before you do so maybe take a deep breath?

Paizo allowed a company with a history of failing to complete projects to pick up the license - with a manufacturer that also has a history of failing to complete projects.

I think that 'not making customers a priority' sums things up quite nicely.

Due diligence should have been enough to put the kibosh on this KS, instead it got this far and then imploded.

My wife and I did not back this Kickstarter - because we DID take a look at the companies involved. There were red flags that were quite easy to see.

Honestly? My group HATES PF2, or at least the playtest version - even after the updates.

My wife ended up giving me an ultimatum to stop trying the playtest version.

I am more worried about what Paizo will do if PF2 flops as badly as I fear it might than I am in trying to fix it.

As it stands, my group is sticking with PF1, with no intent to move to the new edition.

Which means that I will no longer be buying supplements, adventure paths, or any other PF material from Paizo. (Not a threat - there is just no interest, so no reason to buy.)

Third party publishers may or may not make the move to PF2 - and d20PFSRD had a survey about interest in keeping PF1 releases going instead.

Several releases from my favorite Pathfinder publisher - Frog God - will already be skipping PF, since they still have a large back catalog of PF1 material.

So, I guess my plea is that Paizo keep an eye on the market, and be ready to react to either a positive response, or a negative one. Not to get so locked in to their 'vision' of the game that they end up holding to an anchor on its way down.

I am hoping that I am wrong, but 4e... left me cautious, in this regard.

BryonD wrote:

Let me asking you bluntly: Are SOME people walking away? Do you have any evidence that it is NOT a significant portion?

The "What pace are you keeping?" thread has 27 groups described in it and exactly one poster mentioning that they might drop out because it's not fun.

That's, what, a little under 4%?

And that 96% is most likely 4% of the people actually trying the system....

The ones posting are the ones dedicated to making THIS system work, not the ones that think that THIS system will end in broken glass, tears, and spilled scotch.

Most people dropping out of the playtest AREN'T posting.

Four groups in my area - that I know of - started the playtest.

Two did not get past character generation. A 50% failure rate BEFORE ACTUAL PLAY.

My group just dropped out - which leaves ONE active group still playtesting - and that assumes that they haven't quit as well.

By comparison - in the local area the PF1 playtests continued to grow during the testing.

And most local playtesters adopted the PF rules.

PF2 is not just competing with a rejuvenated D&D - it is also competing with PF1.

The Auld Grump

Three weeks ago I got an ultimatum from my wife - no more PF2 playtest.

She does not dislike most of the changes - she LOATHES them.

She can, will, and has gone on a rant about how you spend more time creating a character in PF2, but end with a less competent character.

How race has been reduced to a choice of what starting feat you go with.

And she is not the most extreme example in our group - we, as a whole, do not find PF2 to be anywhere near as enjoyable as PF1.

Even the Alpha playtest of PF1 - we could feel where the game was going, and while we disagreed about some of the changes, we felt like the game was heading to a place we would enjoy.

PF2 just does not leave us with that feeling.

The surveys became a major choking point - because we felt that they were asking the wrong questions. And that on a lot of the questions that should have been asked the proper answer was DON'T.

That the right answer for how to fix Resonance points, as an example, is Get Rid of Them.

There are exceptions - We liked the action economy enough that we have started using it - having pretty much ignored that section of Unchained until then.

Three Actions and a Reaction WORKS.

Some changes are problems, but not insurmountable ones -

Character generation is long and involved - but with a LOT of work might work.

But the biggest problem is that with each attempted session, our interest shrank. The time investment was not rewarded by enjoyment - instead it became a chore.

The idea of hanging everything off of the Feat economy was a bottleneck, and left the players underwhelmed by their characters.

With PF1 each session made us more invested and more interested.

And, I have to agree - a final survey for 'Why You Are Leaving The Playtest' might be a very important addition.

I know why I quit - general group consensus was almost entirely negative.

She Who Should Be Listened To made it clear why she refused to go further - frustration with pretty much everything involved with character generation hanging off of feats.

I know why ONE other player was irritated - he felt that his barbarian was left with fewer otions, aside from combat.

The other players? I know they were not happy, but don't know WHY - just that every player was unhappy, to one degree or another, and for multiple reasons.

If my group is typical - and I suspect that they are - then Paizo needs to stop and back up. Make room in the schedule for a major rebuild, and kill some of their darlings.

Or they may well be facing a 4e problem - where the systems don't need tweaking, they need to be scrapped.

This was a rant, but it arises because of the consensus of our group - dissatisfaction is outweighing the enjoyment. 'Twenty minutes of fun packed into four hours' as the old complaint goes.

We almost never completed a play session of PF2. And it was getting less likely, week by week.

By comparison - the PF1 games are running overtime more often than not. People are having fun.

The big questions on all of the surveys should include 'Did this change make your game easier, more accessible, or more enjoyable' and 'Did your group as a whole have fun?'.

And if the answer is no, then some rethinking is in order.

The Auld Grump

Like others, my advice is to talk to the player - and let him know that he won't be getting a solo adventure if he is not with the party.

Find out what is wrong - without knowing the group, there is no way to give other advice. (My bet would be on fear - that if he follows the lead then bad things will happen to his PC - but I could well be wrong.)

I did have a player that did the same thing - and in his case it was fear that something bad would happen to his character - and the result was that the rest of the party go stabbed, beaten, half drowned... and had a great time.

Meanwhile that one PC stayed completely warm and safe in the inn, and then had the nerve to complain that nothing had happened.

The rest of the party looked at him as though he had gone daft.

The Hobbit would have been an awfully short book if Bilbo had decided that he was right about adventures, and stayed snug in Bag End.

The Auld Grump

The first, and last, time I had a party of murder hobos, I had the entire party hanged.

PC death can be a learning experience.

I told them that I like the heroes to win, if the PCs become the villains... then I still want to see the heroes win, it just means that the PCs will be where the actual heroes get their XP.

Chaotic Neutral PCs were your first warning sign, shoulda kept the rope handy....

The Auld Grump

Rysky wrote:

Not sure why I'm getting thanked but I'll take it!

Eh I just felt like it. ;)

Mean time, MORE Blood pig!

You just want Paizo to release Blood Pig as a board game, don't you?

Did I trust WotC: Yes, once upon a time. I felt that the folks in charge of the company were headed in a good direction, and were worthy of a certain level of trust - the trust was in the people that were in charge at the time.

Did WotC destroy that trust: Yes, in a long campaign of actions that I felt inconsiderate of their fans and supporters.

Were there reasons beyond the failing of trust that I do not like 4e: Yes - I cannot stand the game. They effectively turned what had been a roleplaying game into a tactical boardgame.

Were there reasons beyond the rules that I do not like 4e: Yes, in the lead up to 4e WotC decided to annoy me at every step, downplaying the parts of the game that I liked best and insulting me into the bargain.

Do I trust WotC now: No.

Will I buy 5e: No.

Will I buy anything from WotC ever again: Unlikely.