Murder Hobos Problem


Homebrew and House Rules

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So my group is turning into a bunch of "Murder Hobos" that think they still are the heros of the campaign...they are not anymore...and I was thinking of some ideas for a new campaign because things are probaly gonna go south for them soon...

Was thinking about just doing a goblin or monster campaign for them so they can just go full murder hobos...

Sooo wanted to get some input on the differences of running an evil PC campaign vs monster campaign.


Evil campaign vs. monster campaign isn't entirely comparable. Evil campaigns have evil and neutral players. Monster campaigns have monster players. There's no reason why those can't overlap.

Having PCs as monsters makes the game more difficult for the GM, since you have to balance encounters and craft social interactions that support monster PCs. However, I assume you mean monster campaign in that the PCs are allowed to kill anything, no? PCs being allowed or expected to kill anything is a part of designing an evil campaign - if your campaign is not sufficiently shock-resistant that PCs can kill basically anybody, it is not going to be a successful evil campaign.

Players enjoy plots, questlines, and things to do, even if all they do is defy the plot. If you just cut them loose and let them kill whoever, they will not have as much fun as if they are vigorously defying the "intended" plot, regardless of if they kill or don't kill things.

Perhaps instead of starting a new campaign, you alter your current campaign to accommodate their less-than-good behavior? Add some part of kingdom building or something. Maybe have people denounce them as greedy and immoral murderers. Have revenge squads, medieval social justice groups (mobs), or perhaps even paladins go after them.


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I am currently running a game like this. It's a homebrew setting, a couple centuries back the "pretty" of this region managed to push all of the savage humanoids into a nasty stretch of scrub and badlands, build a ring of forts around it and keep them in. In the last 10-20 years the humman led empire collapsed and the support of the border garrison dried up, leading to masses of hobgoblins and gnolls seizing the border forts as their new capitals. So far its gone real well, with the pcs involved in raiding to expand their warband's territory further out into human lands once held by their ancestors, and some light internal politcs.


Start deconstructing their actions, show the behind the scenes repercussions of what they have done. Culminate with them registering on a detect evil spell.


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Have minions of the big evil approach them, not as enemies, but as allies.
"Hey guys nice work on [most recent murder event], my boss is impressed. Maybe we got you wrong, you're certainly not heroes. Why don't you come work with us? The boss said he'd give you [rich kingdom] to rule if you join the winning team."


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Or just run a campaign where they are heroes and can kill indiscriminately. Assault the Gates of the Abyss or something. Let them enjoy running the characters it appears they want to run.


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It's our party, and we'll kill if we want to
Kill if we want to, Kill if we want to...


Send bounty hunters after them. Make sure they can out murder hobo the PCs.


What kind of things have they done?

Is it a matter of money or XP?

I've found that ignoring the XP mechanics and using narrative based level progression helps with that, same for money. Having a certain amount you expect them to have by a certain point is what matters.

I would need more information before I gave any real advice.

The Exchange

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You may want to tell the players, "I'm getting burnt out. I wanted to run a campaign for heroic characters, and instead everybody's gone for criminal types. I don't look forward to running the game anymore. What do you think we should do?"

RedDingo, Scythia and DungeonmasterCal have all offered advice that handles the in-game aspects, but you should first make the players aware that there's a problem and that you want their help in improving the campaign.


You are saving they are turning to murder hobos and that they are no longer heroes. So, I have to ask: weren't they always like that? Is it something recent? If the answer is yes, it could be interesting to know what made them start behaving like that. There are a lot of possible motivations for it.
Are they enjoying the game?
Are they finding it easier to solve issues by sheer force than by more subtle ways?
Are them too used to very straightforward games where you have to fight everything?
Are they feeling rewarded for their murderous behaviour? (If you can slay the merchant and take his goods with no consequences why would you bother buying from him?)


Well they all started out as either N or CN characters. They all initially had a plan but then just went to s!$# for no reason. One plays and insane person so he uses that to justify any action. Another plays a master chemyst who just mixes in potions into anything he can find and trys to get every person he meets to drink them. The rest of the party is less into RPing and enjoy more of a combat focus so they just join into murdering when the occasion comes.

Right after the first session everyone just decided to kidnap a bunch of kids and got magical cages to lock them up, they used disguise person to impersonate the sheriff and murder a shop keeper. So the town in in chaos right now and they have an orc army marching on the city and it will arrive in a few days.

I did create a NPC party to oppose them which is working ok.

My real concern is that while most seem to be having fun; the whole chaos of the campaign its been leaving other plays out since they are not too into the RP and dont really know what to do within all the chaos. If I confront them tho they all say its ok they dont mind. It just suks when ur at the table and only have 2 people playing and the rest just sitting there watching the chaos and not doing anything aside from the occasional murdering.


Lord_Rachen wrote:
Well they all started out as either N or CN characters. They all initially had a plan but then just went to s~+$ for no reason. One plays and insane person so he uses that to justify any action. Another plays a master chemyst who just mixes in potions into anything he can find and trys to get every person he meets to drink them. The rest of the party is less into RPing and enjoy more of a combat focus so they just join into murdering when the occasion comes.

Ah yes, I've been wanting to play a Krieger type character...

Quote:
Right after the first session everyone just decided to kidnap a bunch of kids and got magical cages to lock them up, they used disguise person to impersonate the sheriff and murder a shop keeper. So the town in in chaos right now and they have an orc army marching on the city and it will arrive in a few days.

Why did they kidnap kids?


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They're chaotic evil.

Send in some NPC paladins, give them a chance, which will require effort and teamwork, and if they live convert to an evil game, home brew it. Steal all the tropes, make it fun for everyone. The cheesier the better I've found is what keeps evil games going and fun.


For an evil campaign I recommend the Way of the Wicked adventure path. Within that adventure path there are options for running standard races as well as monstrous characters.

Also, Vampire the Masquerade has some interesting ideas for how to run monstrous characters within an otherwise relatively civilised society.

If you don't like running the current game I recommend you wrap it up quickly.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Lord_Rachen wrote:

So my group is turning into a bunch of "Murder Hobos" that think they still are the heros of the campaign...they are not anymore...and I was thinking of some ideas for a new campaign because things are probaly gonna go south for them soon...

Was thinking about just doing a goblin or monster campaign for them so they can just go full murder hobos...

Sooo wanted to get some input on the differences of running an evil PC campaign vs monster campaign.

Is it that they just prefer the combat aspect of the game over the roleplaying side of things, or are they chasing experience points so they can level up, or is it something else?

One thing I learned with a group I played with for some time was that several of the players were simply bored with low levels and/or the pacing of the current story and wanted to push things along, so for them I just shifted them to a faster experience track, trimmed a few of the non-essential side missions, and pushed them along until they were at a point where they felt more excited about the characters they were playing.

I had another group who just couldn't help chasing XP. They wanted to level up, the carrot was dangling, and they couldn't help but chase it by killing everything that looked at them funny. For them, I actually removed experience points entirely and moved them to "checkpoint" leveling. As the GM, you note when the party should be what levels in your campaign, and then level them up automatically at key story points. Party saves the village from the goblin horde, level up! Party successfully tracks down the Fish Alley killer and turns him over to the authorities for the reward money, level up! Etc. This can really help groups that genuinely want to engage in all aspects of the game but simply can't help going murder hobo when that little voice in the back of their heads is telling them that killing that plot hook is probably worth more experience than whatever mission they were supposed to give.

Now, if the party is legitimately feeling the need to murder-spree... In my personal opinion, evil PC campaigns aren't the best place for that. Evil campaigns tend to work best when the party has motivation to work together and some kind of binding agent lending them direction. They often need more focus and variation than a standard adventure, and aren't really the best place for tearing it up 24/7. Way of the Wicked is arguably one of the best evil PC games ever made, and it's all but impossible without party cohesiveness and restraint. If you are going to do an evil PC campaign, think really carefully about the level you want to have it at and what the surrounding world looks like. Can your party be stopped by town guards? Ranger patrols? Regional armies?

Now, as far as goblin/monster campaigns, do you mean the party playing as goblins or monsters, or the party mowing their way through huge hordes of goblins/monsters? If the former, it's basically the exact same thing as the evil PCs, except your party doesn't have the option of blending in with the good guys if things go south and they need to hide out. If you're going to do that, it's a good idea to have the adventure set in the broader arc of a major event like a massive war between the goblin/monster species and their allies and the goodly civilized lands. That will allow the party to avoid some notoriety and explain why a troop of knights isn't available to immediately come stomp them out for their perfidious undertakings. If it's the latter and you want a good adventure that's basically just chock full of goblins/monsters for the party to kill, the war setting is still a good idea, or you could borrow from an AP like Kingmaker where the party is essentially in unconquered territory with letters of marque to go wild and clear the place out. War/crusade stories can be great for players who really want to focus their time and attention on the combat aspect of the game while leaving a door open for a change of pace if they're so inclined; the party has literal hordes of enemies to mow through, the broader backdrop of a large-scale invasion or territory dispute explains why their actions can go somewhat under the radar for a larger period of time, and the party can still be heroes if they want.


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Boomerang Nebula wrote:

For an evil campaign I recommend the Way of the Wicked adventure path. Within that adventure path there are options for running standard races as well as monstrous characters.

Also, Vampire the Masquerade has some interesting ideas for how to run monstrous characters within an otherwise relatively civilised society.

If you don't like running the current game I recommend you wrap it up quickly.

I don't think Way of the Wicked is a good option. I am GMing it and it encourages LE behavior and evil plotting, not murdering everything at sight. If they go murder hobo in WotW they are not lasting for too long. I'm GMing the second book and we've already lost 3 characters due to irresponsible behavior.

Also, he said that most of the other players are not enjoying the game. It doesn't seem fair that disruptive players could be rewarded while the others are forced to adapt.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Kileanna wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:

For an evil campaign I recommend the Way of the Wicked adventure path. Within that adventure path there are options for running standard races as well as monstrous characters.

Also, Vampire the Masquerade has some interesting ideas for how to run monstrous characters within an otherwise relatively civilised society.

If you don't like running the current game I recommend you wrap it up quickly.

I don't think Way of the Wicked is a good option. I am GMing it and it encourages LE behavior and evil plotting, not murdering everything at sight. If they go murder hobo in WotW they are not lasting for too long. I'm GMing the second book and we've already lost 3 characters due to irresponsible behavior.

Also, he said that most of the other players are not enjoying the game. It doesn't seem fair that disruptive players could be rewarded while the others are forced to adapt.

Yeah, murder-hoboing is pretty much the worst thing you can do in Way of the Wicked. The party is pretty much strictly outclassed through the first three and a half books and needs to rely on strategy, cleverness, and not a small amount of luck to survive.


It's a great and different story but I would only recomend it to experienced and mature players as it encourages creativity a lot.

Spoiler:
If they are not subtle they will die for sure while trying to escape from prison at the very beginning of the adventure and while trying to take over Balentyne.
Also, they might not react well when Adrastus imposes the blood contract and as a GM you have to be inflexible at that part.

Vampire is also a game of intrigue. It's not the best game to go murder hobo.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Kileanna wrote:

It's a great and different story but I would only recomend it to experienced and mature players as it encourages creativity a lot.

** spoiler omitted **

Vampire is also a game of intrigue. It's not the best game to go murder hobo.

We actually TPK'd our very first session of WotW and had to reassess our character plans, party composition, etc. I think it does a great job of modeling what an evil adventure can/should be, but you're right in that it is definitely not very forgiving.

I don't know that "evil = murder hobo" is even necessarily a good gauge of a campaign. I mean, the act of being a murder hobo is obviously evil, but generally someone shows up to stop evil-doers (I mean, that's basically the whole premise of the game), so a certain amount of craftiness is essentially required unless you have some broader curtain protecting you, like the war or crusade settings I mentioned earlier.


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1) Shift their alignments to match their actions. And start enforcing what happens to those who do not shield their alignments by magic, ie paladins will detect you as evil, etc.

2) It can be tough when a few (or one) strong personalities take over a game and they decide to run with it in a direction the GM and other may not have expected.
I have found that as a GM sometimes you just have to say No and have the players deal with the consequences they have devised for themselves.
So in your case maybe a PC gets killed and they cannot be raised or resurrected, or the town does not release the body of someone so evil to walk the earth again, etc.
As another poster said above, this could also be a sign of boredom and/ or burn out (from gaming or life in general) so I might actually take a break from the game for a period of time.

Good Luck
MDC


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They want the kind of game that you don't enjoy running.

Your enjoyment matters too.

Conclusion: It's somebody else's turn to run.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

1) Shift their alignments to match their actions. And start enforcing what happens to those who do not shield their alignments by magic, ie paladins will detect you as evil, etc.

That actually leads me to ask- have you actually talked to your group about your feelings regarding their actions and the direction of the campaign? You mention they still think they're the heroes of the game, so it's possible they have a very different perspective on what's happening and what the repercussions of their actions should be. This might be a great time to just check in with your players and have a conversation about the tone of the game and how you believe their characters' actions would be perceived in the context of the game world. Maybe the "behind the screen" info that you have and they don't is leading to a schism in the narrative you're attempting to run and the narrative that they believe they're creating/participating in.


RedDingo wrote:
Why did they kidnap kids?

No real reason just cause, chemist wanted to feed the kid potions and stuff.


Ssalarn wrote:
Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

1) Shift their alignments to match their actions. And start enforcing what happens to those who do not shield their alignments by magic, ie paladins will detect you as evil, etc.

That actually leads me to ask- have you actually talked to your group about your feelings regarding their actions and the direction of the campaign? You mention they still think they're the heroes of the game, so it's possible they have a very different perspective on what's happening and what the repercussions of their actions should be. This might be a great time to just check in with your players and have a conversation about the tone of the game and how you believe their characters' actions would be perceived in the context of the game world. Maybe the "behind the screen" info that you have and they don't is leading to a schism in the narrative you're attempting to run and the narrative that they believe they're creating/participating in.

Yeah I already talked to them. The chaotic people say they like doing it just because and its fun to them, so I talked to some of the other players and they just say they dont mind. But even tho they say they dont mind it still seems like the chaotic players are starting to take over the campaign.

I'm pretty sure they are not chasing XP or anything because they are already lvl 11 and I've always run a pretty fast lvling game anyway. I dont think its boredom or burn out cause we only play like once ever 2 weeks sometimes every week.

I'm not too bent on running my version of a narative either I generally build a world that exists and progresses regardless of if the PC follow the ques and do the quests.

I'm just concerned im not running a proper campaign to encompase everyone or what the PCs want to do and I want to make sure everyone has fun. That why I was thinking of running a campaign where the PCs play monsters but im just not sure if that is the right route.


Calybos1 wrote:

They want the kind of game that you don't enjoy running.

Your enjoyment matters too.

Conclusion: It's somebody else's turn to run.

Yeah one other person voiced that he might want to try but he never seems to do it, and everyone else seems to want me to always do it cause they say I do it the best.

Wouldnt mind playing a PC from time to time tho. We shall see...

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Lord_Rachen wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

They want the kind of game that you don't enjoy running.

Your enjoyment matters too.

Conclusion: It's somebody else's turn to run.

Yeah one other person voiced that he might want to try but he never seems to do it, and everyone else seems to want me to always do it cause they say I do it the best.

Wouldnt mind playing a PC from time to time tho. We shall see...

Getting some play time for yourself is really important for a GM. You learn things being on the opposite side of the screen, you get to enjoy a different aspect of the game than you normally do, and it can be a nice reset before resuming your normal role. Definitely see if that player wouldn't mind running a one-off or two just to see how things go and give you a little break. You might be surprised at how far that goes towards getting your issue resolved.


Lord_Rachen wrote:

So my group is turning into a bunch of "Murder Hobos" that think they still are the heros of the campaign...they are not anymore...and I was thinking of some ideas for a new campaign because things are probaly gonna go south for them soon...

Sit them down and talk with them, like adults. tell them that you want to run a heroic style campaign. That what they are doing makes the game less fun for you.


Lord_Rachen wrote:

Well they all started out as either N or CN characters.

My real concern is that while most seem to be having fun; the whole chaos of the campaign its been leaving other plays out since they are not too into the RP and dont really know what to do within all the chaos.

Wow, this is bad. OK, do sit down with them, and talk with them. Then restart the campaign.


  • Several kids spontaneously develop advanced, mutated forms and break free. They break the Chemist's ribs and smash his labs and crush one of his hands (requiring magical regeneration). Result is a chaotic reaction (or deity spawned) so not easily to replicate, though chemist can try.)

    They flee screaming into the woods, in pain, agony, and decimate goblin army, but plague the surrounding for a long time and never recover. They will seek revenge on PCs, attacking them if they find them or destroying any property if PCs have it.

  • Wanted posters show up around town as well. They don't make the PCs sound cool or awesome. Things like grave-robbing, kidnapping, suspicion of sheep-molestation, and public indecency.

  • Turns out the sheriff has his own hat of disguise and uses it to trick individual PCs into doing or going places elsewhere. If that doesn't work, he has a big stick, bigger than they thought.


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Lord_Rachen wrote:


Yeah I already talked to them. The chaotic people say they like doing it just because and its fun to them, so I talked to some of the other players and they just say they dont mind. But even tho they say they dont mind it still seems like the chaotic players are starting to take over the campaign.

I'm pretty sure they are not chasing XP or anything because they are already lvl 11 and I've always run a pretty fast lvling game anyway. I dont think its boredom or burn out cause we only play like once ever 2 weeks sometimes every week.

I'm not too bent on running my version of a narative either I generally build a world that exists and progresses regardless of if the PC follow the ques and do the quests.

I'm just concerned im not running a proper campaign to encompase everyone or what the PCs want to do and I want to make sure everyone has fun. That why I was thinking of running a campaign where the PCs play monsters but im just not sure if that is the right route.

Running a game for Evil PCs can certainly be challenging. There are a few things that have worked in the past for my Evil PCs (assuming that you want to proceed with a campaign once it's gone South of Neutral):

1) You're not there to punish them. Most suggestions around the forums tend to involve overwhelming your players with powerful NPCs or otherwise making them regret straying from the straight and narrow. This is a fast way to suck the fun out of your campaign. If you've settled on an evil game, then accept that your players will be doing evil things and a good portion of the time, the universe will look on, uncaring. Of course, make sure that everyone knows where the line is.

2) Evil acts; good reacts. Quite often, your players will have their own goals, even if they haven't yet realized them. While it's very unlikely your evil players will react to a save-the-village quest (unless you've got a cleric of fear and/or tyranny trying to show villagers the benefits of converting), such plots aren't entirely lost. The party can replace the antagonists of the plot and defend themselves (and their ill-gotten gains) against any would-be heroes. Keep point 1 in mind when designing encounters.

3) Disassembling things promotes understanding. One day, a guard catches the PCs in the act. He confronts them. The PCs kill him. The City Guard reacts. The PCs see how poorly-equipped and understaffed they are and proceed to wipe them out. The absence of law sparks a gang war which the PCs may join, encounter or ignore, but will eventually have to deal with as the victors will be the new "legitimate" authority. This provides a bit of insight as to why heroes are generally required in the first place and the consequences (to common folk, not the PCs) of not having them.

4) The strongest rule. If the PCs have dispatched those who stand in their way, they'll come to find that people start to placate them. They offer them protection money to stay in their good graces. They offer sacrifices for experiments. The PCs will come to realize that they're the de facto rulers (which carries with it serious benefits and drawbacks).


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:


Running a game for Evil PCs can certainly be challenging. There are a few things that have worked in the past for my Evil PCs (assuming that you want to proceed with a campaign once it's gone South of Neutral):

1) You're not there to punish them. Most suggestions around the forums tend to involve overwhelming your players with powerful NPCs or otherwise making them regret straying from the straight and narrow. This is a fast way to suck the fun out of your campaign. If you've settled on an evil game, then accept that your players will be doing evil things and a good portion of the time, the universe will look on, uncaring. Of course, make sure that everyone knows where the line is.

Good points. The thing is, we really dont want to encourage murderhobo crud. There's a difference between a Evil campaign and just some guys killing innocent shopkeepers and peasants.

Set it someplace where there are no innocent shopkeepers and peasants. The orc lands or the giant lands.


If they're going full on murder hobo, then scrap this campaign and actually make them a pack of hobos trying to survive in the slums of some big city. One of my friends did that for our group and it was a blast. We took our first three levels as commoner and then had to multiclass to get pc class levels. A few sessions of running from the guards, back alley stabbings, petty theft, and opportunistic cannibalism should show them the error of their ways in a fun, dark humor sort of way. Or not, and they'll just have fun as a pack of murderous hobos in a more honest way.

Grand Lodge

Try to figure out the impetus to their murder hoboing. Sometimes in RPGs the only interesting and rewarding choice is to smash face and take loot. If that's the case don't give then nice NPCs with fancy items and bags of gold. Make the world impoverished and the dungeons exciting and treasure filled.

Some players might murder because you the GM telegraph everything as a combat encounter. Do you give players clear non-combat situations that won't trigger their hoboism?


Wasn't able to read everybody's responses, and I'm sure you've done some of these things, but I saw this video recently and thought it may help: Video


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The first, and last, time I had a party of murder hobos, I had the entire party hanged.

PC death can be a learning experience.

I told them that I like the heroes to win, if the PCs become the villains... then I still want to see the heroes win, it just means that the PCs will be where the actual heroes get their XP.

Chaotic Neutral PCs were your first warning sign, shoulda kept the rope handy....

The Auld Grump


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DrDeth wrote:
Kitty Catoblepas wrote:


Running a game for Evil PCs can certainly be challenging. There are a few things that have worked in the past for my Evil PCs (assuming that you want to proceed with a campaign once it's gone South of Neutral):

1) You're not there to punish them. Most suggestions around the forums tend to involve overwhelming your players with powerful NPCs or otherwise making them regret straying from the straight and narrow. This is a fast way to suck the fun out of your campaign. If you've settled on an evil game, then accept that your players will be doing evil things and a good portion of the time, the universe will look on, uncaring. Of course, make sure that everyone knows where the line is.

Good points. The thing is, we really dont want to encourage murderhobo crud. There's a difference between a Evil campaign and just some guys killing innocent shopkeepers and peasants.

Set it someplace where there are no innocent shopkeepers and peasants. The orc lands or the giant lands.

+1 to that.

Evil behaviour is not necessarily disruptive. I've played evil characters in non evil campaigns and it wasn't a problem.
But we are not talking about evil, but about some guys going on a killing rampage.
Think of real life: many people that you could definitely call evil end being important people, running important companies and even governing countries. Serial killers usually just end in jail.


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Lord_Rachen wrote:

So my group is turning into a bunch of "Murder Hobos" that think they still are the heros of the campaign...they are not anymore...and I was thinking of some ideas for a new campaign because things are probaly gonna go south for them soon...

Was thinking about just doing a goblin or monster campaign for them so they can just go full murder hobos...

Sooo wanted to get some input on the differences of running an evil PC campaign vs monster campaign.

Greetings,

You have received good counsel from the other respondents and I can only offer up the following thoughts to consider to salvage your current campaign:

1) We all game because we want to have fun.

2) As GMs we know that, despite our most meticulous planning, players are just like cats and toddlers and will do whatever the hell they want to do. Take a deep breath and repeat after me: that’s okay (which is something that’s really hard for me to do).

3) If you’re not having fun, then it’s more likely than not, that your players aren’t having fun. You need to talk with them and find out where they’re at and what they want from the game. They also need to understand what you want from the game and what are your concerns.

Hopefully, after everyone’s cards are on the table, you and your players can agree on a forward trajectory for the campaign. If not, then have an appropriate deity descend upon your PCs, admonish them for being very naughty, and then banish them to a realm where every creature is hostile and needs to be neutralized to ensure the survival of the PCs. The only rewards being the tools (ammunition, appropriate weapons, healing potions, food & water) necessary to live and fight another day. Their final goal being the opportunity to return to the “real world” so that they can retire, write their memoirs and die peacefully of old age.

For what it’s worth.


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Ssalarn wrote:
Kileanna wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:

For an evil campaign I recommend the Way of the Wicked adventure path. Within that adventure path there are options for running standard races as well as monstrous characters.

Also, Vampire the Masquerade has some interesting ideas for how to run monstrous characters within an otherwise relatively civilised society.

If you don't like running the current game I recommend you wrap it up quickly.

I don't think Way of the Wicked is a good option. I am GMing it and it encourages LE behavior and evil plotting, not murdering everything at sight. If they go murder hobo in WotW they are not lasting for too long. I'm GMing the second book and we've already lost 3 characters due to irresponsible behavior.

Also, he said that most of the other players are not enjoying the game. It doesn't seem fair that disruptive players could be rewarded while the others are forced to adapt.
Yeah, murder-hoboing is pretty much the worst thing you can do in Way of the Wicked. The party is pretty much strictly outclassed through the first three and a half books and needs to rely on strategy, cleverness, and not a small amount of luck to survive.

Correct! Way of the Wicked taught our group, which were acting like murderhobos, how to be evil with finesse. In books one, two and three we went through plenty of characters. Mine was the only one to survive all the way to book six thanks in part to a lot of luck but mainly due to the realisation early on that planning, subtlety and cunning were critical to survival.


Lord_Rachen wrote:

So my group is turning into a bunch of "Murder Hobos" that think they still are the heros of the campaign...they are not anymore...and I was thinking of some ideas for a new campaign because things are probaly gonna go south for them soon...

Was thinking about just doing a goblin or monster campaign for them so they can just go full murder hobos...

Sooo wanted to get some input on the differences of running an evil PC campaign vs monster campaign.

Have the PCs gradually run into people who vaguely describe the atrocious acts they've committed, have it gradually get more specific and accurate. If they don't wise up and change, then eventually start sending heroes after the PCs. Congratulations, you've converted your game into an evil campaign.


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That could be a solution if all the players were like that, but they aren't. So you're giving them the wrong message by doing that:
Murder hobos get what they want, enemies to kill. They even managed to shape the story to get their way. Meanwhile, most balanced players are watching how the conflictive ones get the spotlight. So you'd be encouraging all your players to go murder hobo.


Yeah, I only noticed after my posting that it's mentioned that it's really just one player being a murder hobo.

The honest truth is from the player character perspectives, they might not actually want to associate with this person who is going crazy evil with murdering unimportant NPCs like shopkeepers and such.

People should probably come and try to arrest the party anyways, and the other PCs are "guilty by association". They can however try to explain, "It was our (former) associate who performed the act and we weren't okay with it. We are willing to perform acts to compensate for our negligence in turning him in."

Sometimes a PC has to reasonably be punished, and if the other PCs continue to work with the evil one in character, then in character they are guilty of crimes too (aiding and abetting).


Ssalarn wrote:
Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

1) Shift their alignments to match their actions. And start enforcing what happens to those who do not shield their alignments by magic, ie paladins will detect you as evil, etc.

That actually leads me to ask- have you actually talked to your group about your feelings regarding their actions and the direction of the campaign? You mention they still think they're the heroes of the game, so it's possible they have a very different perspective on what's happening and what the repercussions of their actions should be. This might be a great time to just check in with your players and have a conversation about the tone of the game and how you believe their characters' actions would be perceived in the context of the game world. Maybe the "behind the screen" info that you have and they don't is leading to a schism in the narrative you're attempting to run and the narrative that they believe they're creating/participating in.

I agree (I just replied to another person post with this), do not try and be a mind reader. As the players what is going on.

You might have to take a break and or change things up with your playing. For example instead of playing have a board game night or ask another player to GM for a short time.
Often having these breaks players realize why you are the GM in the first place and why they love the game.
But also having said that I also know that often there are times when players just need to be silly, vent and go off course.

If you do run a monster/evil campaign remember it can be as short or as long as you wish as the forces of good could rise up to smack them down quickly just as what normally would happen in an adventure or AP.

Good Luck
MDC


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Time to put this campaign in a box and thank everyone for playing.

There's no in-game showing them the error of their ways or consequences, this is just a chore by the sounds of things and you have better and more productive things to be doing with your leisure time.

If they want beer and pretzels and some combat centric play then just line up the worlds longest dungeon bash and have at it.

People rolling up CN characters is always a bit of a flag for me, and when you see a table of N and CN, then you 100% knew you weren't about to have a 'heroic campaign' on your hands.

Too late for this one, tag it and bag it.

Grab Emerald Spire and have a hoot.


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Alternatively, amuse yourself by sending them into Rappan Athuk. It's bigger, nastier, and probably going to break them before they break it. XD


Another lovely suggestion!

The Exchange

Java Man wrote:
I am currently running a game like this. It's a homebrew setting, a couple centuries back the "pretty" of this region managed to push all of the savage humanoids into a nasty stretch of scrub and badlands, build a ring of forts around it and keep them in. In the last 10-20 years the humman led empire collapsed and the support of the border garrison dried up, leading to masses of hobgoblins and gnolls seizing the border forts as their new capitals. So far its gone real well, with the pcs involved in raiding to expand their warband's territory further out into human lands once held by their ancestors, and some light internal politcs.

This is awesome.

No copyrights, right?

The Exchange

Scythia wrote:

Have minions of the big evil approach them, not as enemies, but as allies.

"Hey guys nice work on [most recent murder event], my boss is impressed. Maybe we got you wrong, you're certainly not heroes. Why don't you come work with us? The boss said he'd give you [rich kingdom] to rule if you join the winning team."

So is this.


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Give them a couple of magic rings.


Jader7777 wrote:
Some players might murder because you the GM telegraph everything as a combat encounter. Do you give players clear non-combat situations that won't trigger their hoboism?

I dont think im doing that.

For example they wanted to go vist a shop keeper to go buy some stuff. In the flavor text for the shop keeper he had an old hat that has been in his family for generations. So the occultist says to his companion hey I want that hat go kill that shop keeper...the chemyst chimes in and gives the fighter a potion to disguise himself as the sheriff...fighter goes in and murders the shop keeper...

I just gave them some flavor text of an old man wearing a larger leather hat and who told the PCs that the hat isnt for sale since it has been in his family for generations.

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