The 8th Pagan's page

Only skimmed the 4e books in the shop, but have been looking at information as it was released at Wizards.

Also been checking out reviews and actual play podcasts of 4e.

I know it's early days and people are still learning the rules, but someone was reviewing H1 Keep on the Shadowfell on Amazon.co.uk and made a comment that was frightening....

Combat lasting 5-6 hours.... in a 1st to 3rd level adventure!!!!

That does not sound like a fast moving system to me.

Sounds more like Rolemaster.

The longest fights should be around an hour and they should just be 'boss encounters'. Fights with 'minions' and low level monsters are 15-30 minute fights at most.

But then I guess I'm not the WOTC target audience!

I think you misunderstood what I meant by fun, or maybe I worded it badly.

The draining of levels is not the fun part of the encounter with level draining monsters. To be honest it's a pain in terms of game mechanics with the loss of skills, feats etc.

The fun part was the reaction of players to the draining creature. The fear in them. That has gone.

Undead should be scary. So should demons and devils.

They have changed the succubus so now she is just a 'snog monster' who stands around looking pretty.

Now she is just 'Eye Candy' for the encounter.

And with regard to large encounters... so what. Big fights are tedious. I don't want to spend all night running one battle.

The corrupting touch of the Succubus seems a bit weak compared to the level drain kiss of previous editions. But they don't like level drain and ability drain in 4e.

It's not fun.

Level drain might not be fun for the players, but it great fun for the DM.

I always enjoy watching the look of fear on the player when his character's hard earned levels are threatened by powerful undead and other level drainers.

And the Succubus has lost her teleport ability too. The Malebranche has it, but it's a lame 'devil swap' with short range.

Charming kiss would be more effective if it could affect multiple foes, but all it does is turn one PC into a 'meat shield' for her and only then if she makes the Charm and Secondary attack.

I did weaken at one point and pre-ordered 4E.

The release of Pathfinder RPG made me cancel it.

Not because I am going to use that system necessarily, but it prompted me to modify 3.5 myself.

Without Gary I would never have discovered role-playing games.

Thanks for all you have given to me and the rest of the world of gamers.

Rest In Peace.

I think they are making the world so empty because the existing campaigns have a lot of history and are heavily populated with high level NPC's.

The Forgotten Realms has Waterdeep with a population of a millions iirc and Eberron has Sharn, City of Towers.

It's clear from the info that is being released that they want the PC's to be the powerful forces in the world and that is why I think they are going with the 'Points of Light'. Small towns and willages will not be full of 20th level NPC's.

When I first started playing D&D we used a rotating DM system as we all wanted to play. We started with the Saltmarsh Trilogy and had a different DM for each module. Then we moved to higher level dungeons that were connected only by the characters we played. In effect we were playing a points of light campaign.

D&D is going back to the roots in that respect.

And creating your own campaign world is both fun and hard work. On the plus side, no one can say 'But Elminster wouldn't do that!'

Every NPC is yours and no one but you knows what they would and wouldn't do.

Doubtless there will be rumours of 'nude code' for the virtual desktop.

Either that or someone will hack it.

Languages with common roots can have their uses.

Odd is it might sound, knowing the latin name of an animal can help when eating out in a foreign country.

Just never eat Rattus!

DM: "Now that you've dealt with the dragon that's been playing god with those barbarian tribes, it's time to deal with the dragon's horde."

Player: "Sweet! How much gold is there?"

DM: "Not hoard, horde. As in the five tribes of barbarians that you pissed off by killing their god. Good luck. You'll need it."

Stop giving me ideas like that. It's dangerous.

That's a truly evil idea. I love it! Just need to get hold of 500 barbarian miniatures!!!!

I believe Heathansson was making the point that he was drooling over his keyboard at the Seoni standee and he failed to notice the 'red book'.

A bit like a guy saying, 'Brad Pitt was in Mr and Mrs Smith? Was he? Never noticed!'

Will 4E have cheat codes, too?

Are you suggesting that there will be 'hacks' for a hack and slash game?

Heroic death with dramatic impact?

Where's the fun in that?

Part of the fun of being DM is watching a 'hero' die due to some abysmal dice roll at a dramatically inappropriate moment.

I think that languages should be more expensive to acquire than they are at present and I think that the background of the character should be at least invoked when adding languages. Antonio, at least, was travelling and learnt through exposure.

In addition to D&D I also run Mutants and Masterminds which I am sure you are aware is d20 related.

In the basic rules for the game, languages (like all skills), cost 1 point each.

However, in the Masterminds Manual it suggests you have 4 ranks in each language.

Rank 1 is the basics. Asking for a beer and other simple phrases.
Rank 2 is described as fair fluency
Rank 3 is good fluency
Rank 4 is totally fluent with no discernable accent.

I think it would work well for D&D languages too.

Rank 4 in your native tongue and any special languages (Druidic etc.)

And perhaps rank 2 in other 'Bonus languages' with the option to buy them up for greater fluency.

I do the ole Croc Dundee check.

Would that be Knowledge(Nature), Spot or Search?

And that is a dangerous check to use as you're never sure what it is you will find!

3337 rants is too many to read through... so please forgive if this has been mentioned before.

PIN number is the one that gets me.

It's not a PIN number.... It's a PIN!

Personal Identification Number.

Not Personal Identification Number Number.

Profession checks I admit crop up infrequently, but are other skills that are more flavour and are rarely used.

Put a dragon in front of the PC's and they know exactly what to do....

But put them in a social encounter where they need to impress some noble with Perform(Dance) and there will be trembling hands as they roll those dice.....

As they seem intent on removing as many dice rolls as possible, I am guessing that Incorporeal creatures will be next on the hit list.

That 50% miss chance vs spells and magic weapons will have to go!

DaveMage wrote:

It's like saying, "your homebrew sucks - use our game worlds to ensure more fun."

I think that sums it up nicely.

Yep! Hit the nail on the head right there. Well you would if you knew how to wield a hammer and strike a nail....

PC's don't just materialise out of thin air. They have parents, siblings, friends, employers.

And they likely underwent some sort of training. That is why in my homebrew campaign I required everyone to have a craft or profession (I gave them a couple of ranks) to reflect the fact that they had lived a life before they began adventuring.

No one told me creating a background to the world and people in it was not fun. They should put this information in the rule books!

So, you use a profession skill and the game gets to be less fun?

Then WTF did they make Profession and Craft available as class skills to everyone?

Was it just to make it look like there was going to be some role-playing in the game?

I think the example given is misleading.

Spells that hit automatically do tend to have spell resistance apply. Things like Magic Missile for example.

Many that require a touch (or ranged touch) attack don't. The various Orb of .... spells for example.

And the creatures that have spell resistance do tend to be extraplanar and/or powerful like demons, devils and dragons.

They should be more resistant in my opinion.

I never understood this whole "dwarves with scottish accent" thing. It's actually annoying that it seems to be the same in every book and accessory. I blame Bruenor Battlehammer.

No idea who Bruenor Battlehammer is.

The first dwarf I ever read with a scottish accent was Aucter (I think that was the spelling) in a magazine called Imagine that ran for 30 issues in the early 80's in the UK.

Aucter was dwarf fighter in the company of a wizard with big ears, a thief and paladin called Reg.

Flashheart (from Blackadder TV series) has always been a big fan of beardy women.

'Hey nursey. Like the beard. Gives me something to... hang on to!'

If the dwarves stop being surly, will they also lose their scottish accents?

Because everyone I ever met (me included) has played dwarves with scottish accents!

Other than that, while I loathe Britney I do pity her too and sincerely hope she will, I don't know, go meditate in Tibet for next 30 years.

Be nice! Why should the people of Tibet be made to suffer. Or do you mean meditate and take a vow of silence....

I have not been a big fan of the info they have been releasing about 4e and I'm not sure whether the 'max damage' critical is good or bad.

Maximum just seems anticlimatic.

One good thing that they have mentioned is the 'no save or die' rules.

Petrifying gaze and death attacks were always something I kept to a minimum as one run of bad rolls could wipe out the party. A medusa once got three out of four characters in a single round.

And death magic was even worse in that you needed a 7th level spell to undo the effects.

So that particular idea seems to work, but there has to be something more to a critical hit.

Maybe a bit of STR damage (or another ability) to make it feel more significant. Even a scar is better than nothing, but that really only affects recurring villains or player characters.

It's ironic that the biggest 'sell' for me from 2e to 3e was the articles in the Dragon that went class by class to discuss what was being changed.

They picked the exact wrong time to kill Dragon, methinks...

Can't disagree with you there.

During the switch from 2e to 3e those articles were interesting reading.

Online bits and pieces just don't compare.

Mind you, that glut of new products accompanying the ushering in of 3rd Edition resulted in a huge amoung of CRAP. Hopefully, we've learned our lesson and the products we see this time will be much higher quality.

Don't hold your breath for quality. There are plenty of companies out there ready to unleash more crap than colony of monkeys!

They will be hoping to lure the money from the pockets of the gullible.

My advice, until a few months have passed, create your own adventures or adapt 3.5 stuff as there is plenty of that around.

On second thoughts, don't wait a few months, just make stuff up anyway.

Heathansson wrote:

Leave Britney alone!

Who?

Apparently she is some talentless blonde idiot!

No offence to any non-idiotic blondes.

I was browsing the WOTC release schedule for 2008 and noticed the three adventure series:

H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth Adventure
H3 Pyramid of Shadows

H1 is for levels 1-3, H2 for levels 4-6 and H3 for levels 7-10.

Sounds like they are really serious about the fast level gain.

Three dungeons and you're into Paragon levels.

So does that mean 6 and you're Epic?

And after 9 or 10 dungeons you'll be the new gods?

Seems a little too easy!

4E is going to have nukes? Awesome!

I played a D&D adventure long ago when my Magic User found a big sphere.

He fiddled with it and it started counting down.

In those days there was a chance that you could Teleport low, appear inside a solid object and die.

As that had happened to him before, he was reluctant to risk the Teleport, so ran as fast as he could.

He learnt a valuable lesson. You can't outrun a neutron bomb blast.

Giving all of the races bonuses and no penalties is not a good idea.

When choosing a race for your character it's nice to have a clear idea of the pro's and con's of that race.

Stat penalties is one way of giving you that.

If you are halfling then you know that melee weapons are not a good idea. Bard, Sorcerer and Wizard are not a good choice for half orc.

You can still make a halfling paladin or half orc wizard, but you do so with a clear indication of the drawbacks.

But if every race is just bonus, bonus, bonus the choices are less clear.

And as has been said earlier in this thread... drawbacks help with the role-playing aspects.

Bonuses are better for the roll playing.

WOTC seem intent on focusing on the latter.

Isn't any hit to creature with Regeneration considered non-lethal unless it is specified otherwise?

Like fire and acid on a troll.

So basically you need a lawful or good weapon or a lawful or good spell to avoid the regeneration kicking on.

And with regard to weapons you also really need an epic weapon.

The Divine Madness seems a bit nasty too with the Insanity effect, but that's just a Confusion which never wears off that could be removed with an appropriate spell... once out of the area of effect.

Fortunately, unless the PC's are demi-gods or greater, that will not affect them.

The no save thing is there to simply justify a bunch of mere mortals dealing with it rather than the gods thinking... 'Hmm. Real bad foe. Might threaten the world. Lets go kill it.'

Essence of Evil was clearly set up end a 3e campaign and justify the changes that take place in 4e.

Quoting from page 16 of the pdf

Whether or not Shothragot reaches his master is ultimately left to you, but such an event could reshape your world and prepare the way for something entirely new. Whatever you decide, the emergence and destruction of Shothragot is a signature event that can have sweeping change on your setting, making a fight with this monster a thrilling conclusion for your campaign.

Not a very subtle way of saying...

' Time to throw the old books on the fire and buy some new ones'.

The gnome has always been a joke race. Basically the illegitimate love child of a dwarf and halfling.

Not sorry to see it go.

Tieflings though are cool. They probably should have complimented it with the aasimar though.

Video was moderately funny, better than the beholder one. Seems the running 'joke' is death of the host.

ALL D&D heroes have strong bladders. When was the last time a PC went to the bathroom in one of your games? :-)

Not just D&D heroes, but most of them.

Did Indiana Jones go to the toilet? Luke Skywalker, James T. Kirk, John McClane?

Crocodile Dundee did once, but only the threaten some guy with a knife!

Heroes don't go to the toilet.

And most dungeons don't have toilets anyway. Strange considering most cities have sewers to fill with monsters.

But you should force the PC's to the toilet. That way you can exchange them for a doppleganger... cast a charm spell on them... turn them into something unnatural... you get the idea.

Yeah. You have a point.

But they took the fun stuff out like the Nephilim some time ago.

You bring up an excellent point CEB, Zeus just about raped anything that breathed and that's where many of the gods came from. I rarely hear people even mentioning this fact when speaking of the Greek gods.

Aphrodite didn't rape anyone.... but she did sleep around.... a lot.

That is what makes the greek myths so much fun.

There were a soap opera, but one that was rated 18 (or X or whatever rating you use where you live).

Now... if we can get the christians to make the bible a bit more racy... Convert a few angels to fallen angels and get them to... recruit... by any means necessary....

*Braces self for backlash from the christians!*

Edit: Ha ha, genius, apparently cockerels are auto-censored at Paizo - damn you foreigners, ruining a perfectly good word with your smut!

I was playing the beta of Lord of the Rings Online and found a quest giver who wanted me to gather some g****s. Censorship is funny. Grapes is offensive because of the middle 4 letters.

Given the interest most PC's have in this kind of stuff, you could probably assume that characters adjust perfectly well after about an hour or two.

True in many cases, but Monty Mullen did say it was a role-play issue. If the player and/or GM are considering this issue then it won't get resolved in a hour or two.

I think we all know some dwarf warrior that put on a Girdle of Masculinity/Feminity in 2nd Edition and carried on as if nothing had happened. As soon as they got back to town is was 'Remove Curse' and back to normal.

This however, is a conscious choice which should be role-played out

But what I'm curious about is whether anyone has any experience in-game with the simple fact of spending your life in a body that wasn't yours to begin with, as a player developing their character or as a GM running the story. Has the issue ever been addressed in your games? Has it ever been a character conflict? What does it do to a person to be wearing a different body all the time?

Sorry, misunderstood before.

Would that PrC be Spymaster from Complete Adventure by any chance?

I did once have a character go through that issue as it happens. It was in Call of Cthulhu and he was a private detective.

You probably know the routine... get a call from a friend or relative (ex-girlfriend in this case)... She needs help etc.

During the investigation they 'renewed' their relationship in the physical manner and then he woke up in her body. Later he found it was her father in her body as he'd killed his own daughter. (Confused yet?)

When he caught up with his original body it was mutating into some elephant god or something, so he killed his own body.

Now in Cthulhu madness is the norm and this did confuse the hell out of him for a while. Needless to say he gave up sex due to trust issues and the fact that he couldn't stand the thought of 'doing it with a man' and finding another woman would be tricky in the 1920's.

Anyway, meandering off topic a bit.

Obviously this example had the gender issue, but yours doesn't.

The whole situation caused some confusion with his friends who knew what had happened. He effectively lost his family as they thought he had been brutally murdered, so that left him feeling very alone.

The rogue will also lose her family connections and friends, with the exception of those that know her in her new identity.

As for what it feels like to wear a new body...

You'll see a different face in the mirror, but after a while you'll forget about that. Unless there are radical physical differences then I'd say it would be like having a new suit that you need to get used to wearing.

At least she doesn't have the same problem my PI had. He never really got the hang of high heels and always felt like a cross dresser when he had to wear a dress. And don't even ask about the toilet issues....

But for all the quirks it was fun to play that character.

A friend of mine used run a pub that could be classed as offensive, but I was not sure if I could type the name without getting banned from the boards.

In code (a rather weak one I do admit) it was called 'The (male bird) Inn'

I'd say that the Polymorph would probably not have much of an effect.

The body would change, but probably not the mind.

If your rogue suddenly goes from female to male then she'd have some adjusting to do if she planned on having physical relationships with anyone.

If the race changes then I'd apply ability modifiers and give them the usual racial characteristics like low light vision, darkvision etc.

But I would not modify the number of skill points per level that would be gained (demi-human to human) or lost (human to demi-human). Nor would I grant them proficiency with a weapon or skill bonuses due to race.

Polymorph Any Object is Permanent, but can be dispelled, which could cause complications.

However, if you wanted to completely change, including racial abilities, sexual preference and react as the new personality then I'd suggest you go with Wish or Miracle.

Today is not so happy for the turkeys of america.

In the UK we wait until December 25th to eat them.

I think for the really evil creatures like demons and devils you should booby trap them.

Put a 'raw chilli' in there to make the one that kills them 'feel it'!

The difference between 3.5 players and 4.0 players will 0.5!

But seriously, it does not matter what percentage switch to 4E! Play the game that you want to play!

Just because more people play it does not make it better.

Dude, this is the best product idea ever... you could sell them in randomized boosters, and there'd be no downside. "Crap, I got another Abyssal Maw. Oh well, glmph, mmm....

Can I pre-order a case of randomised miniatures?

Can't wait for the colossal red dragon figure!

Though they don't balance very well...

Since when has anyone been worried about balance in D&D?

Chocolate monsters is a brilliant idea though.

The down side is that if you run a mass battle the players will die of obesity!

OMG!!! Power Attack Sucks too!!! How dare I do basic addition at the gaming table!?!

Don't forget there is subtraction too! You need to reduce the attack bonus.

Odd really that such complex concepts as basic maths requires comment at Gleemax. Does this mean that kids today require a calculator to add and subtract?

I am now tempted to invent an RPG that uses 'Log Tables', just to freak the kids out.

In 4E there will be no demons or devils because they are too scary and evil and corrupt young minds.

Instead there will be 'Naughty Angels' who play tricks on people.

The bard class has also been replaced with 'Boy Bands'.

Although to be honest that is rather scary.

I would like to take this opportunity to apologise on behalf of the UK for the Spice Girls and Take That (Nobbie Williams in particular).

As for "crazy rumors", I hear they've edited "Rule 0":

"The DM is always right unless a majority of players agree that she is just being a Mean Old Cranky Pants who needs a Time Out."

This is the cover of Knights of the Dinner Table 95.

KODT 95

I think it sums up"Rule 0" perfectly

There's an antidepressant drug (I forget the name) a friend of mine takes that has as a side effect...

'May cause depression with suicidal tendacies'