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I've been playing in a 3.5 with the standard retraining rules from PHB2. It's come in handy, I agree, and it makes for more fun while I'm trying to get my character just right. I wound up trading out a feat that had been very important at low level (Mounted Combat), but was simply obsolete by the time my character stopped riding her animal companion into battle (at least, most of the time). I think I wound up trading it for a slightly unofficial Bareback Riding feat, which is mostly for flavor so that I don't have to take a penalty for not using a saddle when I do need a ride check.

However, I'm now running a Pathfinder game, and one of the things I stated up front was that by default I was not going to allow retraining. The reason is simply because players earn more feats over their character's career in Pathfinder. You don't like that feat? Wait a level or two and get a new one. I figure the trade-off for so many feats is that you might well wind up with a few that just don't get used that often, but then who knows what will come in handy one day? Especially if Fighters get feat retraining as a stated class feature, which would take away from that class's unique power and versatility if just any Ranger or Rogue could do it.

All that said, I'd still probably allow it if a player asked very nicely, and if the situation was clearly deserving of a little leniency. I don't want to punish anyone for say, mis-reading a rule, or thinking that some nifty ability will be more useful than it is. But for a feat that becomes underpowered over time, I'd be less lenient because the faster feat progression in Pathfinder will compensate for that, and not every choice you make can be optimum at every class level.

My group took a soft limit to the 'unlimited orisons' and the world building problems they caused - now, while they're still technically unlimited, casting spells is seen as exhausting, in a similar method to hustling, running, etc.

snip

House rule? Sure, but it was more a logic rule than anything, so we ran with it. And a rule that explains away certain edge cases while leaving reasonable usage unaffected is a good rule, in our book at least. :)

You know, that's not even necessarily a house rule; there are plenty of instances where the rules don't elaborate and common sense is meant to fill in.

The reason that I like this is that casting a spell is a standard action. The rules for actions exist only for combat in relatively short timescales, so there is nothing to suggest one could perform a standard action repeatedly for 8 hours with no penalty. In combat, for instance, you can double-move all you want. But keep that up for an hour of overland movement, and you're at risk of taking non-lethal damage.

Now it might seem like just a little chanting and hand-waving, but a standard action is a strenuous activity; a character who is disabled can take move actions, but standard actions cause them to fall unconscious and begin dying. Now, a disabled character simply can't take a double-move action (or any two actions, except free) in a round, but this does imply that a standard action is at least as stressful as a double-move action.

If the players want to do something that is technically possible but not explained in the rules, the GM has to adjudicate something. Imagine swinging a sword 10 times a minute for 8 hours straight, and tell me if you'd allow a character to realistically do that in-game without some kind of penalty. And yeah, non-lethal damage is certainly a possibility, followed with concentration checks.

I might, however, give a bonus to Perception checks to spot the location of an invisible creature within the area of an entangle, or just penalize their Stealth checks as if it were heavy undergrowth (which I think is -4 to Stealth).

What about the -20 given to the DC to spot an invisible creature that is talking or in combat, assuming it wasn't actively fighting before? That seems to be about right; in a sense the plants are fighting with the creature to entangle it. It brings the DC to notice something amiss to 0 (since it should be obvious that the plants have snagged something at that point), while the DC to pinpoint the creature is 20 (with all the flailing plants, it takes some effort to figure out exactly what's going on).

It takes a full round to cast lesser geas also.

Ah, you're right, how did I miss that?

Well I guess that means my little twerp ain't going to get to use it until he's back to positive hitpoints.

One option I've considered is making him perform some other standard action (e.g. escape check), and go back to dying until the party decides to let him rot or heal him enough to talk.

Alternatively, if he stays asleep for 8 hours, natural healing will be enough to get him back to normal.

Came across this odd scenario. Normally a spell that is landed via a melee touch attack requires a somatic component and thus a free hand. So it's easy to assume that the same hand is used to actually touch the target.

But then the Fey-bloodline ability Laughing Touch is a spell-like ability, requiring no somatic components. Does that mean a character with no free hands (or with his hands tied, like I'll be dealing with this weekend) could deliver this touch attack with, say, a shoulder nudge or a quick kick?

Yes, good advice and food for thought. Doing a bit more reading, I've found a satisfactory description of a language-dependent effect which also indicates a spoken aspect. So, yes, the party might notice him chant something briefly before saying "Let me escape unharmed." or something of the like. Without the right skill checks, nobody would know for sure what just happened.

But the main problem is that I've confirmed that if he's in negative hitpoints when he does this, he'll pass out and begin dying again. Hopefully he can connive someone into letting him heal to positive, otherwise he'll just have to take his chances that his geased target (or the rest of the party still seeking information) will treat him.

Of course, if he can figure out a language that only one character speaks (probably Giant; they've got a Goliath), he can be a bit more explicit in his instructions.

And if he figures he's got no chance to live at all, he can always target the dual-wielding, crit-rolling ranger with "Kill all of your companions immediately." That should keep everyone busy for a little while. Say, does anyone know if the effect should end when the caster dies?

This discussion is reminding me of a nifty item type from WoTC's Frostburn supplement. That book describes Skull Talismans, which like a potion can be crafted with a feat and each store one spell that can be cast on a creature. They're described as an alternative that was developed in climates where potions could freeze.

Just like a potion, it takes a standard action (which provokes AoO) to break it and activate it. But the main difference is that it can store a spell of up to 9th level, as long as the skull is large enough to hold all the inscriptions. It also costs twice as much to craft as a potion would. A creature can also activate the skull by breaking it with an attack, which is why my Gnome Druid has a few storing Enlarge Person that she can drop before wildshaping into a large octopus, so she can easily become a huge octopus with one of her tentacle slaps (depending on how you interpret the rules, I suppose...)

The point is, I don't see why a reasonable GM wouldn't allow a Craft Swizzlestick feat, or something similar for a change of flavor, as long as the activation rules and spell storing effects were all identical to a potion. Same thing with a wand or a scroll, really.

Of course, as we've seen, the real difference with a Wondrous Item is that the effect could be anything, as determined by the author (or the GM that allows the item into the game). That said, what would be a good guideline for some sort of Brew Double-Potion feat? It couldn't be that game-breaking, at least not with some restrictions or increased costs, right?

I'm running my first game here, and the whole thing got started when my roommate described a character concept based on Little Red Riding Hood, and suddenly I decided that we had to play a game inspired by fairy tales and folklore. Everyone loved the idea, and most of the PCs are loosely based on such characters (Puss in Boots, John Henry, Snow White, etc.).

Now, I have a basic structure thought out, and the first story arc (and the overarching threat to the entire world for the rest of the game) is loosely based on Sleeping Beauty. The idea, in a nutshell, is that Sleeping Beauty is asleep (actually a Temporal Stasis effect but I'm bending the wording a little to allow a dream-state) and protected by magic that seals off planar travel (Forbiddance spell). The reason for this is because the evil fairy Queen (and campaign big bad) who tries to kill her in the traditional story is actually imprisoned with her. Specifically her mind is trapped in Beauty's dreams, and if Beauty wakes up, the Queen can hitchhike back into her conscious mind and possess her body. If Beauty is removed from the Forbiddance area, then the Queen's mind is free to return to her own body. And if Beauty is simply slain, then who knows what becomes of the Queen, but it's safer to just keep her sealed away for sure.

The PCs will discover her resting place before too long, but won't have enough knowledge or means to do anything drastic until much later when I'll give them the opportunity to enter the dream world itself. I'm still trying to figure out the background here though, so I thought I'd tap the forum for inspiration. Questions yet to be answered: Why was the Queen in Beauty's dreams? Are they related in some way? Does Beauty have eerie dream powers (can make dreams reality) or does the Queen (can kill you in your dreams)? Or both? What became of the Queen's body? Who engineered this prison? Who is trying to free the Queen?

I'm also looking for ideas on how to inter-relate the planes. The fairies should have a connection to the dream world, but where is their realm exactly? I don't quite like the assignment as an outer plane in Manual of the Planes.

And then, what about further inspirations for adventures? So far, I'd like to include challenges and scenarios based loosely on Dracula, Frankenstein, Sleepy Hollow, Hansel and Gretel, Macbeth, the Little Mermaid, Arabian Nights, etc. Any I should consider? Any idea on how to make these playable adventures?

First, apologies if this gets double-posted... I find myself having to retype this question after something went wrong with the submit process.

Second, you have to read the subject line to the tune of the chorus from "Rock Me Amadeus."

Alright, so, as I mentioned in a previous thread about consciousness, I have a situation developing between my dungeon boss and the players. When he finally wakes up, the Goblin King (a 9th level sorcerer of the Fey bloodline) will find himself bound, gagged, at negative hitpoints, facing a party (APL 6) of adventurers who will want to know why he wanted a particular artifact so badly, and what is in the ruined castle to the North that he's so interested in.

Besides his Fleeting Glance power (5 rounds left for him today), the only trick he can use without being untied is Lesser Geas (verbal component only, so he can drop it as soon as they ungag him for interrogation). There's a really good chance that he could succeed at landing this on a PC, so I need to figure out the scope and limitations of this spell so that I know what I can justify to the players.

The spell "places a magical command on a creature to carry out some service or refrain from some action...", which is a pretty open-ended description, really. The spell description goes on to say that the "creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed," and that the instructions can "involve some open-ended task."

So what if that commanded service is "Do everything as I tell you"? Would the target then have to follow further verbal instructions ("Do not alert your friends. Do not harm me. Untie me. Give me a curative potion. Distract your friends as I leave.")? Or does it have to be more goal-oriented, like "Assist me to escape unharmed"? In which case would the character have to follow the caster's suggestions on how to assist with that (as above), or simply act in the spirit of the command as he or she sees fit?

If none of these are palatable (I understand that the GM messing with PC free-will can suck, but there's no reason this villain would pull his punches) are there any alternative ideas on how to command a geased PC to get his goblin butt out of there? Keep in mind, I don't know how the players will proceed; whether the main interrogator will take him aside to a private room to "chat" or just ungag him in front of the whole party.

For that matter, the spell is described as language-dependent, but it does not say that the target must be able to hear you. Would a third party only hear a verbal spell component, while the target receives the actual command? Would a spellcraft check reveal what the command was? This could obviously make a difference if all the party hears is some chanting, without realizing that one of the PCs have just received an irresistible command.

Well, I'd like to chime in with my perspective. All of my experience comes from one character in 3.5, whom I've been playing for a while now. I've got a Forest Gnome Druid, currently level 11, plus one level of Beastmaster PrC. As you might guess, I've focused a lot on my animal companion. The character's first companion was a Dire Weasel. Now, from a gameplay perspective, the animal companion is an expendable and potentially powerful combatant. From a roleplay perspective, however, my character has mostly tried to protect the Dire Weasel from harm.

I tend to be conservative with dropping spells, saving them for difficult combat or tricky situations, so I tend to go to melee against weaker foes. As a gnome, you can guess how I would be lacking in the damage department. So at mid-level, before the really good wildshape options opened up, I spent most battles riding the weasel, using Mounted Combat and a maxed Ride skill to keep him safe, while charging at opponents and draining their Con a bit so that the heavy hitters in the party would have an easier time taking down the baddies.

Of course, this backfired when the weasel tangled with a large Crystal Dragon. The blood drain effect caused the most damage, ultimately, and with his last round the dragon curb-stomped the weasel. The druid finished the dragon off with an appropriate wildshape form (Dire Lion) and dragged both of the bodies into the woods. This opened up some great roleplaying, since the party hadn't really gotten a forwarding address and my gnome druid kept hidden in the woods for a while in grief.

My current animal companion is now a Horrid Weasel. With feats and prestige class bonuses, my animal companion is the equivalent of a level 18 druid's, with a massive natural armor bonus and an overall AC of 33, 96 hit points, immunity to acid, and a bite attack modifier of +14. His damage is kind of low, but the ability to drain 1d4 Con each round and a little bit of acid damage helps. This makes him one of the most impressive melee combatants in the party, and on top of that I've got all the abilities and spells of an 11th level druid, and essentially twice as many actions each round to use them! I have so many tactical options: I can stay mounted on the weasel to provide buffs and healing; I can dismount and stay at a distance, using ranged attacks, AoE, or assist other characters; or I can wildshape into some vicious animal and tag-team alongside the weasel.

I'm going to buy a Healing Collar, which cures like 50 hitpoints (I think) as an immediate action at the druid's whim, and essentially extends the survivability of my buddy even further. And if the weasel should sadly die, the in-game costs to my character are minimal (although the psychological damage would be high). My character's goal with this creature has been to train an animal that can kill dragons, as revenge for the death of the original weasel. In addition to all the armor and hitpoints and blood-sucking hatred, I've also given the horrid weasel the Giantbane tactical feat (with DM's permission, of course). This gives him even greater defensive bonuses and maneuverability options against Large and larger creatures.

I frankly love my animal companion, and I don't feel like I've traded very much of my other capabilities to get him to be so powerful. I understand that his usefulness will probably diminish at later levels, but I expect him to remain a very worthwhile investment.

Okay, so to my embarrassment I originally put this question to the wrong forum. I've got some useful feedback nonetheless, but let's put it to you guys, if you don't mind.

I'm running a Pathfinder game and my very first game as GM. Fortunately, I'm considered the rules lawyer of the gang, so I don't feel completely in over my head.

At the moment, the party has braved the defenses of the goblin fortress and killed practically every goblin and bugbear in sight (with the exception of the babies and mothers, who they allowed to escape). They've encountered the Goblin King (no, not David Bowie), a 9th level Sorcerer with the Fey Bloodline, and to my surprise they've captured him, tied up, alive but unconscious.

Now, since he's still got a few tricks up his sleeve, and valuable information if the PCs can successfully Intimidate it out of him, I've realized that it might be very important to the game to know exactly when he can regain consciousness.

He's been reduced to -5 hit points, and he has an additional 20 points of non-lethal damage on top of that (yes, it's been counted separately from the regular damage). The party has given him first aid to stabilize him, and I understand he gets to make a Constitution check each hour afterward to wake up after stabilizing, at which point he would be considered disabled and staggered.

The trouble is the nonlethal damage. Does it still count against him being able to wake up or does the recovery check clear him regardless? Should his nonlethal damage count towards the penalty on his rolls to regain consciousness? Also, if he's conscious but in negative hp, does the damage he take from taking a standard action cause him to lose consciousness? (I'm inclined to say no, since there's no explicit mention of that and it would make a disabled character even more useless.)

Normally I wouldn't sweat this too much, but I want to give both the PCs and my Goblin King the fairest chance to accomplish their opposing goals. If he wakes up right away, he's still got two castings of Lesser Geas (verbal component only, so once they ungag him for questioning...) and about 5 rounds of Fleeting Glance that he might be able to use to escape. But if he's out for the next 8 hours and is able to meditate unnoticed for 15 minutes, he'll have even more spell slots available (I assume that counts as sleep, right?). If he's out until the next day, he'll have 4 more rounds of invisibility by way of Fleeting Glance (any word on what action type that is to activate?). And if he's out so long the PCs decide to magically heal him and put him back into positive hp, he'll no longer be staggered.

I've had a similar question with potions, actually. If a character finds an unlabeled potion somewhere, are they considered willing targets just for consuming it if it stores such a spell that requires that?

What about a potion that has been incorrectly identified or mislabeled? Do you get to save versus that Inflict potion that you thought was Cure? And if so wouldn't you try to save versus a potion that you didn't know was Cure?

How about an unconscious character being given a potion or spell effect requiring a willing target. Do they get a choice to receive the effect or to attempt a save?

Essentially, I have devious ideas involving traps that exploit odd spell effects through potions. For instance a Gust of Wind effect and a potion of Gaseous Form (disguised with Magic Aura, I'm sure).

I'm guessing that both the bluffing a willing target and the mislabeled potion questions come down to this: When the spell effect begins, does the character get any notion of what is about to happen, with enough time to resist?

I'd say that because a character who fails a Will save does not gain any knowledge of the spell (as I understand it, anyway), then a character who hasn't made any save shouldn't get any info either, and it's based on good-faith. Still doesn't answer for an unconscious character though.

Well, good point, and I suppose that was a mistake in forum choices on my part (is it me or is the navigation on this site confusing? I simply couldn't find that page originally).

Nonetheless, I'm more used to the standard 3.5 rules so I'm comfortable using those rulings to fill in the holes in Pathfinder. Plus we're running a different game with those rules too, so this sort of information is still useful (if not immediately relevant).

So, with that, thanks again. I do think I like the conclusion that the non-lethal damage has to wear off first (it buys him more time for something to happen). But I've still got 5 days to figure that out for certain.

First, thanks for the detailed response! I know I run on a little bit with my words, and it's nice to see that my commitment to detail is returned. It's also great to have a think-tank to help tackle these sticky rules issues without consulting with some more experienced players (and thus spoiling possible surprises)

However, I should have been a little bit more clear, so here goes:
We're running Pathfinder, so I'm not sure if the dying/disabled rules are different (I know he's alive until his negative hitpoints equal his Con score, instead of a flat -10; his Con is pretty good too). From the Combat section of the Core Rulebook (p 191), a tended character who has gone from dying to stabilized is given a check to wake up every hour after stabilizing. At this point they are treated as disabled and staggered. My interpretation is that such a character could take more damage (as from taking standard actions) without immediately going unconscious, since a disabled person would be completely useless otherwise (and I'd grant that to a PC, if it ever came up). Now this would be good enough for me, but the non-lethal damage is compounding the problem.

I've been counting the non-lethal damage correctly. He's absolutely at -5 hp, with 20 non-lethal points on top of that (they pounded him good... two more failed Will saves or an extra round to cast Blink, and it would have been a different story).

Now, I'm running this game, so I've got to make a ruling on this one way or the other. This is my first game that I've run, so I lack experience, but I'm a pretty good rules monkey so I have some confidence. Normally I'd leave this sort of thing up to a rough interpretation sprinkled with GM fiat, but I've realized that this could actually have serious implications (in whether he can manage to escape before they get any information out of him via some insane Intimidation checks), and I want to give both the players and my Goblin King the fairest chance allowed by the rules. I take it these questions don't come up very often because most PCs are just trying to outright kill the monsters, and PCs typically have access to magical healing.

So it comes down to whether he can be forced awake before he's in positive hitpoint territory (for purposes of not hurting himself for taking actions), or whether he gets 8 hours of sleep for spell restoration (if the PCs make the mistake of allowing him 15 minutes of meditation), or whether it rolls over to the next day for purposes of his Bloodline powers. I do like the idea of him feigning unconsciousness, but he's got no ranks in Bluff, and I know some of the party have Sense Motive so I can't rely on that.

Incidentally, he's got two castings of Lesser Geas left in him (verbal component only, so he can do it if he can speak), hopefully I can come up with a water-tight command to give that will help him escape. He's also got 5 rounds of his Fey Bloodline power Fleeting Glance, which I assume will also make his bindings invisible. Maybe if he has some alone time with one of the PCs, he can Geas him or her to help him safely escape, go invisible, and have him or her just walk out of the dungeon with him. I'm really excited to see what happens, actually, and I really want to surprise the party with the tricks he's got left!

Well, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised anymore, but the party of my game has forced me to look up some rules that I didn't expect to need.

The general scenario is thus: having raided the fortress and slain practically every goblin and bugbear in sight (they did spare the goblin mothers and babies), the party has uncovered the secret throne room of the "Goblin King" (no, he doesn't look like David Bowie), a 9th-level sorcerer. Braving traps and confusion spells, they managed to knock his invisible ass out.

He's been knocked to -5 hp, but was treated and stabilized. Now, according to the rules, after an hour he makes a DC 10 Constitution check (minus a penalty equal to his negative hitpoints) to regain consciousness (I already rolled it, he makes it). The trouble is that he also has 20 points of non-lethal damage. Since that exceeds his current hitpoints by 25, shouldn't he remain unconscious until that heals or does the check he made to recover wake him up regardless?

Also, what happens if while conscious but disabled at -5 he takes a standard action and loses another hitpoint? Does he go unconscious, or can he just keep going till he's dead? I'm thinking that when they try to interrogate him, he's going to have some fun with Lesser Geas.

Hello all. I'm running my first game ever currently using Pathfinder, and, well, I like to think outside the box. So do my players. Unfortunately, the rules don't always go outside the box very well. So here's what I'm wondering currently.

Potions can contain a spell that targets a creature (except for spells with only a target of You). But do saving throws apply? Let's say that a character has been given a potion of inflict wounds instead of cure, do they get to save for half damage, or are they assumed to be a willing target for imbibing it and automatically fail the save? Would they gain the option to save immediately after drinking it and realizing it was the wrong effect?

If an unconscious character is fed a potion, are they given a save since they aren't willingly imbibing it? Would they potentially save against a cure potion and only take half healing because of it?

Now, what about potions containing spells with no saving throw, but that require a willing target? Is the target willing because it drank the potion, or does it have to know and understand the effect before it can be willing? Does it have a chance to choose to accept or deny the effect after drinking the potion? And again, what of an unconscious creature?

The description for the Iron Cobra monster indicates that some people might load its poison reservoir with a cure potion, so that they could command it to bite them for healing. What if the potion so delivered was of a spell that required a willing target, but it bites a creature that doesn't know the effect, or even that it's a potion at all?

For an example of how this could come up (and I'd love to see this), imagine a room with a permanent Gust of Wind effect blowing across it into a grating or duct system leading to a tight, confined room. Then imagine an Iron Cobra armed with a potion of Gaseous Form. The cobra strikes, injects the potion, and the character is immediately rendered into an insubstantial cloud and blown away into a prison cell with no exit. Or is the potion useless because the target isn't willing?

I have an interesting twist which almost came up in the game I'm running a few weeks ago. One of the characters has a necklace of fireballs, and the party was in a tight, confined corridor with a very small, barred window in the wall. The suggestion came up to toss a bead through the window into the next room to try and kill the monster that was in there. Now, I guess as written, it would have been simple enough, line of sight and all that. But I was considering requiring a ranged attack to hit the window and not have the bead bounce off the wall back into the corridor with the party and detonate on them. The party eventually decided to go a different way, but it might have been interesting.

Of course, I'd also have given her the option of reaching through the window to drop it, but I bet the bugbear barbarian on the other side would have had a response to that.