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I'd have much rather seen kobolds in the new core than goblins. Seems like this might decrease their utility as fun and crazed enemies to fight.

Sure, Kalindlara. The basic fixes I did was to add hit points. Lots of them in some cases. Like, 1000's at a time in the last few books. Increase stats here and there. Rebuild a few encounters. And it late game (the last book), I just had the characters describe how they were overcoming an enemy or obstacle without bothering to role for it (let the character just get creative as they wanted to with it). In the earlier books, I gave certain non-mythic enemies "banked actions" (i.e. burn a swift, get a full round action, useable only once or the ability to cast another spell as a free action twice in the fight, stuff like that), but this was mostly because I was running for two larger than average groups, and I needed to even out the action economy for the bigger badies without just adding more minions. Although I did that too. Generally I found that adding more hit points solved a lot of the problems for me, and a little bit of digging into stat blocks and redoing characters solved the rest. Sometimes that digging meant making up a new mythic ability that was exclusive to them that patched a hole in a build. Giving a legendary item with undetectable to the right enemies changed a lot of fights. I had to keep in mind that some of the fights, especially as they go up in power, really should be cake walks. They are some of the most powerful mortals around after all.

Issues came up with the hit point adding in that it made some high level spells kinda worthless (any of the power word spells), but things like mythic holy word were incredibly powerful. I'm not sure how I would address that if it came up again. In general, high level blast mages lose a lot of oomph. I toyed with the idea of letting casters add surge dice to the save DC's of their spells, but I never went through with that. Not sure how it would work out.

I also eased most of the players away from foe-biting legendary items by giving them custom ones items, tied to their build/backstory that were not weapons. So, while they didn't have to make them the legendary items, most players choose to make them their legendary items as they were interesting/potent enough to choose.

Things to watch for, generally, is the action economy. Mythic plays with that hard, and you need to be aware of it on both sides of the cardboard curtain. Next, legendary items can be insanely potent, so be aware of what your players are doing with them so you're not caught blind sided. In fact, generally knowing what your players are doing with mythic is helpful. You don't need to shut down what they're doing, but it will help keep the challenges actually challenging. At least a little. :)

While I can understand the advise to drop mythic, as it has some issues for certain, my players and I all found it fun. They generally thought of themselves as super heroes. So, while I probably won't run this deep into mythic again any time soon (but a tier or three in the right game could be a lot of fun, and the same with adding it to really nasty monsters/villains), it was really fun for this campaign.

Soundboarding? LOL, love the turn of phrase. And neither of my groups required that oh so gentle reminder. While they didn't read back suggested responses, they were well within the spirit of the answers, and passed all of those tests swimmingly. They also all agreed that if they had fouled them up, they'd have deserved the slap on the wrist that she was handing out. I mean, it's not that much damage...

You know, I'd take Mags complaints more seriously if he'd stop trying to compare issues with Mythic and Wrath to car failures and errors in math and language books. It's a faulty comparison for product liability, as well as in scope of potential and real damages.

While I guess it does illicit an emotional response, I don't think it's the one that is intended...

There are some spoilers in here, so players stay away...

The exploration part of book 3 was weak, no doubt. I was able to work in a lot of character stuff and NPC interactions though. The low CR fights I just narrated through, but some of the random encounters were pretty tough (the cultist one was surprisingly challenging for one of my groups, which was nice). Pacing and guiding the exploration is important for the exploration part was another thing I found. I didn't really mind that the personal mythic trials were kinda easy, I tried to emphasis the wider, or personal, implications. There was a bit much of "look how cool ultimate campaign is everyone! Don't you want to pick it up??" in the inclusion of exploration. I didn't dislike it, it gave me a chance to seed some key items, and let the players play their characters, not the underlying doom-math, a bit more. That would be my suggestion for how to use it. It's a chance to maybe have the NPC's interact a bit more. Hogrus becoming a decent guy. The Riftwarden working with any Riftwarden Orphans to explore their legacy. Irabeth settling into her roll as leader of the city. Work on the redemption of NPC's, if that's there (Nurah is SO problamatic to one of my groups, all but one of the players want to kill her SSOOOOO bad!) Of course, I did the normal beefing up for those encounters that I felt warranted it (extra HP, advanced template, other templates, banked actions, & whatever else seemed fun/interesting).

Hell, I completely forgot about most of the raids from enemy forces, so I just narrated that as background stuff.

That's my suggestion for what to do with it. Figure out in the encounters in the broader scheme of things. Or, make them speed bumps to show how totally awesome the players are. STOMPY STOMPY!! Then I hit them with something mean to remind them that I can always Summon Bigger Fish on them... :)

No plan of battle survives first contact with the enemy.
No RPG book, play tested or not, survives first contact with players.

What should they have done to fix mythic? Just the blanket more HP? Futzed with the action economy even more? Powered down the mythic feats like vital strike and power attack to make them barely more than a normal part of the feat chains out there? (Although, mythic power attacks function on crits is pretty sick, I'd have enjoyed being a fly on the wall when they were working on that one..)

You end up with Mythic being blah and not that much of a change from normal games (powered down abilities). Or mythic is super powerful and new players can't wrap their heads around it (powered up mythic monsters). Instead, it's a tool kit that shows super powered fantasy heroes, and the beasts of myth and story that they can fight. I think that they struck a pretty good balance. Not perfect, of course not perfect, but serviceable and useable.

Honestly, it's easy as pie to just add more hit points, and solve a lot of the problems of critters dropping too quick. Consider it a template. Add +1 CR for adding X hit points (where X is whatever you feel is appropriate). Combine that with advanced and you have quick and dirty fix.

So you get a bonus equal to half your level to you to hit and damage for a number of rounds equal to your int mod, with a move action to start it off. You can cancel this effect early to do sneak attack like damage.

At low levels that doesn't sound like too bad of a deal. Not much use for full attacks, and the bonus to hit and damage can push you into fighter to-hit ranges. That's nice. I'm just not sure what a class that's the hybrid of rogue and alchemist doesn't just get sneak attack though. Seems like a lot of work just to have a "not quite sneak attack, but might be better for some times, but never as many dice as sneak or bombs would get you" ability.

I am uncertain of this abilities utility, but I suppose I should wait for the final release to see how it fully plays out.

No RPG that I've played has not needed to be modified in some way to run the way I want it to. Ever. Not in my 20+ years of gaming. I buy big books full of tools for my storytelling. This one is no different.

Paizo puts out good quality stuff that needs only de minimis tinkering on my part to run the way I want it to. They give me options I wouldn't have thought of myself and I find their world setting fun. Also, trying to compare what you see as failings in their products to cars and appliances not working is laughable. It's comparing apples to bricks. I don't think it's helping your arguments any...

One of my groups convinced Horgus that there were untapped business opportunities with the mongrelmen, and after that he warmed up to them.

I really like NoPrey and his boundless enthusiasm for the situation they've found themselves in.

You're right, I should be better at presenting my thought better than that. My bad, let me try this again.

I simply meant to show an example of a range of opinions/applications of the balance idea, drawn from my personal experience. From an overly extreme sense of balance (D&D 4e's application of the concept) compared to a less rigorous philosophy on balance (Kevin Siembieda's opinions on balance, which is actually an interesting take on them, even if I don't exactly agree. I think it was presented in Rifts GM Guide or Rifts Adventure Guide. If you want a citation, let me know, I think I can dig up the book).

However, you're taking your own experiences with the game and it's application and projecting that onto all others. My own examples of actions taken to balance my game are similar to actions I take in most of my Pathfinder games with that many players, and were developed as the end result of running a lot of games for large tables. When I run for smaller tables, I've found that I haven't needed to make such extreme actions. I present them as tools for other GM's who might be in similar situations, or have power gaming players that are running rough shed. I don't know if there is wisdom in what I've done, but it's worked for me.

I have not yet had the chance to run Mythic long term for a smaller table, but I've run several pivotal encounters with smaller groups of experienced characters, and I've had to add a few extra hit points or some more warm bodies. Which I consider to be nothing much for modifications. But, that's just me. If you want to run them flat out from the book exactly as written, well I don't know what to say. In fact, I seem to recall the Big T-Rex commenting that adventure paths are designed with groups not that long to the game in mind, and as such I consider those basic mods I've made (with smaller groups) to be well within the design parameters. The rest is my own breed of madness. ^_^

As for aborted campaigns, ahh, I've been playing for about 20 years, and have had campaigns implode in a wide variety of systems, for a staggering number of reasons all throughout my gaming history, and the history of those I play with. (I think I've been a part of 2, maybe 3 long term games that have wrapped where it was originally intended; and some day, with Sarenrae as my witness, I will get a Cybergen campaign all the way through the rEvolution!) I present this to you as a personal experience, and the shared experience of others, as way of commentary that this is not a unique issue to this adventure path, but to the hobby in general. I've lately come to the opinion that stories that are shorter in length might be a better way of managing that in my own games. My reasons for even running a path while I'm as busy as I have been are convoluted.

Also how many is en masse? Who all is reporting? What percentage of the total number of people who are playing Wrath are putting it down as their games fall apart on them due to something as simple as damage output? Or for larger, more systemic, reasons. That it's happening is not in question. That is obvious from the message boards. And it always sucks when a campaign implodes. And if it is happening in a truly high percentage of all tables running this campaign, not just those that are coming to the boards, I'll be happy to join the request that more rigorous play testing be performed.

They are pricey to go all the way through. Not going to deny that. And I think that saying what problems you've had with them IS helpful. The blanket accusations that the whole campaign is a failure is a bit much, in my opinion, however. And, like I said, I think using the AP's as a test bed is clever. But I thought that they were going to stop using the various theme sub-mechanics (base camp rules, kingdom rules, caravan rules, etc.) in the AP's? Mythic is it's own big book. It had an open play test even. That's a pretty good preview of what's going to be going on in the rule set, and that was free. So, yes, I do totally get the financial argument, and I feel you on that, this particular one could have been avoided (the mythic adventure path) with material that Paizo provided free. With material that Paizo asked people to give feedback and playtest on so as to make it better. And, again, three paths out of how many? With all of there other books, and supplements, and support. Three adventure paths that are going pear shaped is what it takes? If that's what it is, that's what it is. You need to do what you need to do, but like I said, it's working okay for me with modifications I've made for almost every D&D game I've run (more hit points, more cannon fodder). The bags of extra goodies is just to compensate for my larger groups, and because I don't want to rewrite monster blocks for what I think would make it more fun for me to run.

The Kingdom rules worked pretty well for my group with one hitch, the way it was making money hand over fist for us, but that's actually been plugged in the Ultimate Campaign Guide. Next time I have a big table rotation, I might try running that one myself. It was fun to play in.

I do really want to know how did the caravan system eroded your ability to play Jade? I'm just getting started in playing a Jade campaign, and have been looking forward to playing with that very thing for years. It looks fun, and a bit silly, but broken? Pointers I can pass along to my GM for this one, and things to be aware of?

(Dear gods, I'm long winded, and apologize for it. This people, this is the result of too many papers and word vomit based tests! ARGH!)

Thank's Doomed, I do what little I can.

Magnuskn, I think the most balanced, and oft updated for that end, rule system I've ever seen was 4th ed D&D. And I personally think that this quest for balance cost the game it's soul. Other's might not agree of course.

As for demanding a different course of action from a company, the best way to do that is with your money. If you don't think a book is worth buying, don't. Take a look at your FLGS, go to message boards and see what early adopters are saying. Give your purchases a few weeks.

Balance? Balance is a funny thing. Like I said above, the most "balanced" game, and the one that seemed to be under constant revision via online tools was 4e D&D. Then we see some of the other end of the spectrum with Palladium. Kevin will be the first person to tell you that a balanced game is up to the person running it, and the people playing it. Balance isn't really the domain of the creative team.

I didn't really like 4e. Palladium, as much as I really do love it, can be a hot mess that is hard to manage unless everyone is on the same level, characters and GM alike.

No rule set that will be any fun to play will survive contact with the population at large. None. I appreciate, and spend money on, those systems that try and have some idea's of "balance" (abilities and options that are diverse and don't show too overt of power creep, but allow for more interesting options, with the realization that power creep happens) with the knowledge that balance is a fleeting thing.

And personally, I think using AP's as a test bed for new sub systems is clever. Controlled, and limited environment, and later expanded on them into a more stable version after the feedback from the AP. It would slow down their production schedule ssooo much to open playtest every new little thing, and wouldn't be all that cost effective I'd imagine. And even then, no rule will survive contact with the players. It's as simple as that.

When you get down to it, who needs any rules? I don't even need to play Pathfinder, or any published game to tell a cooperative story of heroic deeds and daring do. I've been told one of the best games sessions I ever ran was with a disposable table cloth to draw a map on, a few coins, and a vaguely Rift's like setting. I just rocked a game out for a small group of people. No books. No dice. No character sheets. Hell's bells, we barely flipped the coins we had.

We don't need books to do this. Human's tell stories. It's how we role.

That said, I have a giant collection of game books (and am on subscription for more) from many different systems across multiple editions. They are a frame work. They are a guide. They are ideas. They are a way to give structure to narratives and turn them into a game.

Mythic, for me, has been great. It's been a channel for a certain type of game that some of my friends really like, and other's are okay with. I'll use them again, but not every time.

If I were to run for a smaller group (the 3-5 that is really envisioned by developers for D&D/Pathfinder), I'd make fewer modifications. Like I said, when played with 3-4 players, it's almost strait out of the book.

All I'm saying is that, if the game is going nuts, and your players are power gaming to beat the band, go crazy right back at them. Hopefully they'll appreciate the stories and fun that the rules will help them create.

And I do hope that people can find a little something useful in my mad ramblings...

I've been running Wrath for two different groups (6 players and 7 players, might be adding one more to each in the next month) of mostly old hand players who make a mix of fairly well optimized characters. We just finished off book 3. I've been powering up encounters based on the fact that I have 50% more players (at least) in either group that show up almost every session. It's been running pretty smoothly for me, but I'll admit that some of my mods are a bit... unorthodox.

Adding more hit points is just run of the mill for me at this point. Including just adding an X to the front. They die when I feel the fight has gone enough rounds/enough time in the real world to be satisfying (typically reserved for boss fights). Luckily I'm pretty good at reading my tables, and my players have been encouraging of me just adding more HP as needed (the player of one of the paladin's asked if I'd given the last boss of book 3 1000 more hp. I hadn't, only a few hundred. He wanted to know why so few. Then the fight went an hour and a half due to his trickery. They hated him, and were glad when he was dead. And felt like it was a hell of a fight too. Didn't get the black tentacles, cloudkill, vortex of teeth (uplifted 3.5 spell, it's delightful!) combo going though. Ah well.

I'm adding levels as needed, and mythic ranks/tiers to mythic creatures as needed as well. Not too many, but a few can make a difference (access to powers or feats especially).

I haven't been making all the fights I want to be tougher mythic encounters though (although one or two have had some mythic infused into them). My solution is bonus feats, fixed bonus hit points, and "banked" actions (the foes have a collection of bonus actions that they can take, thanks to what I've called demonic cysts). Adding some mobility to a non-mythic character in the way of free move actions, means they get to bounce around the board and position more effectively. Extra standard actions let's them hit harder, and balances out action economy without having to add more moving parts to the encounter. And sometime, just double the henchmen in a room. Hell, I've used some variance on the 4E minion rules in places to just send wave after wave of 1hp badies at the vital strike/power attack (mythic both) str/con beast barbarian. While the real foes are being dastardly back on caster lane.

Wave. After. Wave.

So, yes, Mythic fouls the action economy. Having 6-7 very well built mythic characters fouls it even more. Adding 500 hp and a bank account full of extra actions that are reflected by the bursting, squirming, and oozing of vile cysts (in which strange, flawed, purple crystals are found...) has certainly leveled the playing field.

And the demon lords? Well, they're going to have 6,666 hp, and what ever other crazy drek I can think to give them. I've already told my players to think Emerald and Ruby Weapon. Optional and super tough. And I'm pretty sure that both parties are going to try for them anyway. Delightful!

While my mods have been kinda hacky, I've been busy with dreaded real life and my groups are big. But you know what? They're working pretty well so far. And on those night's when I've been down to three-four players, I've run it almost strait out of the module, with nothing more then a few extra cannon fodder baddies here, and a few extra hit points there (enough for a round more in a fight typically). I just stopped trying to CR my new creatures/foes, and just give out levels as the books suggest and by encounter count. I guess we'll have to see how things go when the players start getting into the absurd levels of power that even non-mythic D&D gets into outside of 11-12th level.

All that said, I can totally see how this stuff can spin wildly out of control. I can see how I, as a player, could spin this all wildly out of control. I can see how my players are trying to spin things out of control (I hate you mythic silence, I hate you so much). My advise is to go just as nuts. It took me a lot of time behind the cardboard curtain, and running some Exalted Games (and Mythic is WAY more Exalted than Epic Levels Handbook), but my game has certainly benefited, and my players seem to be getting a kick out of it.

So, I don't think it's a failed adventure path, I just think that it's one that takes a bit of table work to make fly. I'm getting to the point where my prep work is mostly just making copies of the stat blocks not presented in the modules, and printing them out for quick reference. Now that's I've figured out the right way to rejigger encounter's, I'm doing a lot of that on the fly.

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TL;DR
My advise, get crazy behind the cardboard curtain! 100's more hit point, extra feats, higher stats, bonus actions, weird gear that loses power on death, extra senses, grafts, 3.5 madness (throw an initiator in there and see what happens!! oh, I have to do that...), etc.

Remember to balance challenging fights that they'll remember, and encounters that they can still roll up and smoke, because they are, after all, big damn super heroes. As DM, you are the spite-filled, wrathful god of their little world, with the aim of making a memorable story for all.

Or, ya know, don't. If that isn't your thing, put it down and move on. No need to keep playing something that isn't fun. But a failure of a path? I'm not sure about that.

I rolled random encounters, but made them easy to skip if the party wasn't feeling it. I also just added "encounter-like" flavor text. For example...

"You see a group of 12 humanoids accompanied by a pair of demons striding down the street like they own it."

"You hear what sounds like it might be survivors in the ruins of a near by house. When you investigate the ruined home though, you find that the inhabitants have been dead for days. You continue to hear what might be the sound of crying at the edge of your perceptions until you leave the area."

"There is a small group of refuges being escorted to safety a few blocks down the street by a group of heavily armed mercenaries or crusaders. Before you can get close to them, a [insert potent demons here] teleport into their midst. They slay the handful of protectors, and a number of the refuges and teleport away again. The remaining survivors flee screaming into the ruins."

"You can constantly hear the sounds of screams, sobbing, and the low drone of chanting ringing out at night, and the skies are lit by eerie lights. At times, the night sky looks, off, the stars not where they should be. Or maybe that's just from the haze of smoke..."

Stuff like that. Don't need to have a combat encounter to set the mod. My party went out of their way to swoop up all the refuges/survivors that they could, and got in a few more fights than I otherwise would have thrown at them for it.

I was planning the opposite for Xany. He's going to have his room all set up to take care of those meddling kids. The doors are going to be rigged to seal themselves on command to keep the party contained first off. Going to go with some black tentacles, and the cloud kill, and I'm going to uplift Vortex of Teeth from 3.5 (fills an area with force based piranha that do damage every round) to make the room a blender of death, with Xany floating serenely above it all, casually tossing doom and destruction down upon the hapless party. Since he get's to choose the location of the fight, he's going to shape it to his favor. Maybe drop people into hungry pits and seal the mouth of them? mythic magic missiles for stragglers. Fireballs because why not? Maybe he'll even summon something! It's gonna be fun!!

I plan on giving the demon lords 6,666 hp. You know, because...

Arueshalae (Shale) did survive. I figured she would (high AC and high hit points as written after all), it was only an outside chance (and a sting of good rolls) that would have really made it otherwise. However, that didn't make the question of what to do with her an easy one. And, out of our three hour game, the group probably spent about one and a half or two hours talking it out. Quotations below are paraphrased form my notes on what was said, sometimes over multiple different parts of the discussion, with a few sprinkles of dramatic license. I hope you all enjoy, I know I enjoyed running this session.

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The party was not unreasonably concerned about a demon in their midst, especially of a type that is known for trickery and deception, claiming that she had valuable information for them. For the most part, they were VERY hesitant.

However, two party members were quick to seize on to the chance of Shale being genuine. The gnome rogue, Digit, who'd been saved by her as a child and is a fellow worshiper of Desna, was happy to give the succubus the benefit of the doubt. So too was Sarena, an oracle of life, a devout follower, and daughter of, Sarenrae.

Standing apart from them, was the party's stalwart paladin of Iomedae, Xylos. A hard man, but devoted to the fight against fiends in all their forms. Looking at her, and even knowing of the ways that one can hide their alignment, he was knew that this fiend was telling the truth. After all, as they spoke, butterflies that even he knew were sacred to Desna, began to flutter gently about the succubus. So he offered her the only mercy he felt he could, the chance to prove the surety of Desna's grace. A quick and merciful end, and a chance to no longer be a damned soul, remade as a larva and coated in the very matter of the abyss.

Taken more than a bit aback, Shale declined his offer. "I am this being, caught between salvation and damnation. Even if I was willing to accept your "offer," I would not test my goddess so. And... I do not know what fate would await me as a traitor to the abyss, and not yet wholly Desna's."

The next voices to add their say to the matter where the Inquisitor, and son of, Iomedae, Gregor, and the dragon disciple, Rygar. Gregor was intrigued not only by the chance for such a great intelligence source as turned demon, but was curious to see if such a thing was even possible. While hesitant to stand apart from his trusted companion, and friend, Xylos, he also did not want the trust of his friends Digit and Sarena, potentially taken advantage of by a demon. A stance he did not hesitate to say aloud.

Shale was visibly growing more nervous by the moment. While she expected suspicion, she had hoped for less open hostility. What the draconic guardian said next almost caused her to flee.

"It. Is. A. Demon," Rygar growled, claws out, and teeth bared, perhaps even more offended that she would also profane the symbol of his deity, Desna, as well as for being among the damned. "Things like that killed my father before my eyes, and tortured my sister to death as well. Why are we even discussing this?" A sentiment that Xylos was quick to agree with, and that caused both Digit and Sarena to shift, ever so slightly, to prevent his ability to charge at Shale. Needless to say, Rygar sided with Xylos, agreeing that the best solution would be a swift end.

A pitched debate followed, Digit insisting that if they wanted to kill Shale, they'd have to go through her first. Sarena pointing out the philosophical and practical reasons for accepting her aid, and assisting her in her efforts for redemption, and offering to lay a geas on Shale to help and put the other's worries to rest. Gregor stating that if she was of genuine use to the crusade, how could they pass up this chance?

Xylos and Rygar both reminded the group of the many ways in which an alignment could be hidden. Rygar insisted that it simply could not be trusted. It was a demon, and they'd be fools to trust it. Xylos pointing out that she was, indeed, already a damned soul. She had her chances to be better in her mortal life, and she had not. She had gone into the boneyard, and stood before Phrasma, and have been cast down.

All the while, Fernando the Magnificent, Evoker extraordinary, and his magnificent monkey, hung back, curious on where this would go, and contemplating what to do about it. While he was not opposed to giving the succubus a chance, he also trusted in Xylos and Rygar, and didn't want to side with a stanger against them.

Duncan, half-orc cavalier, was a bit more familiar with not only being an outsider, but with the path of redemption, having heard his father speak of his own journey from chaotic evil to, well, less evil and probably just a chaotic. But so far he held his tongue, even though he wished to side with the succubus, seeing in her a being that needed protection from the oppressive forces of the abyss as much, if not more so, than anyone else.

And while all this was going in character, a lively debate was held around the table as well. A careful balance of the metagame knowledge of a group of experienced players, who had known that this was coming for weeks, and had done their homework. The demon hunters handbook was heavily consulted, as too were the various gods in play. Mythic abilities and class abilities were discussed. Spells and feats weighed and measured. Wide scale story and plot considerations both for, and against, trusting such a unique NPC were brought up. Discussions of party dynamics, and assurance all around that despite how heated their characters were becoming, all those at the table were having a great time. Especially the player of the paladin, who was now lamenting their choice of taking the Oath against Fiends, talking about his current character arc in his deliberate alignment struggles, and laughing about how he was sure she was being genuine, but could simply not play Xylos in a way to accept her into the group.

Like I said, close to two of our three hours of game, plus about an hour before everyone was there, talking about the situation.

Finally, back in character, Duncan spoke up.

"If she can be redeemed, if she can be taken from the abyss, we win. If she can show mortals and demons alike that even a demon is not beyond redemption, we can win. Demons could be defeated. Period. How can we not take this chance?"

With a sigh, Rygar looked at Shale and informed her that if she betrays them, he'll kill her. No second chances. She assured him, that if she slipped from the path of redemption, she would want him to. Rygar nodded, and went along with it.

Fernando shrugged, tilted his wonderful top hat, and declared that he was in this as well. She deserved a chance to prove to all that she could change if she so wished.

Finally, Xylos stood alone, looking at his companions, and hurt by their betrayal. "I've fought by your sides since the tunnels beneath Kennabres. I've bleed for you. I've died for you. I've trusted you all, even when I've disagreed with you. I've stayed my blade to give that halfling traitor a chance at redeeming herself, even if it is an escape from justice. And now you all side with a demon against me? You point out that she helped in this last fight, but I've helped you all in countless fights. But if that's your decision, fine." With no further words, he turned and left, determined to go his own way.

Shale, devastated that her presence drove away Xylos, turned to leave as well. It was Rygar though that stopped her.

"We've made our choice, and Xylos just needs some time to cool down. You leaving now won't change anything. So you might as well stay."

Shale, a little less uncertain of where she stands with the group, rejoined them.

With knowledge of where the Ivory Sanctum was located, and a new ally(?) with them, they looted the hag, and departed South, only a little behind Xylos.

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On the way South, I decided that the party passed near the lair of the Woundwyrm, and fought that. I wanted that mythic trial out of the way so that Fernando would have his tier as well. Xylos was not with them however and was far enough ahead that I didn't see an organic way to get him back into the fight, so I'm going to need to give him another trial, as I don't want to punish his character for some really good role playing. He is on his way to his personal trial however, which will mean a confrontation with the trio of vrocks. So, yes, he's going to solo a fight with 2 normal vrock's and a mythic vrock, and he's a well built character, so I give him decent odds, not great by any means, but decent. For right now, I have the paladin's player running Shale, and I'm going to give him a redacted character sheet for her next week to use until the party is reunited.

Not exactly the way I thought it would go, but a great session. Hope you all enjoyed reading about it, and sorry it ended up being so long!

I'm looking at the woundwyrm, and was wondering what exactly the maw of the abyss ability does, or at least what it's supposed to do. I get that it drags whatever is in it's cone of effect towards his mouth. But what then? Are they grappled? Drawn into some sort of chaotic pocket reality? What exactly happens?

Here's a few things I've been doing with both groups I'm running Wrath for, since both are groups of experienced players, one group being 6 PC's, the other 7.

I've also been using a lot of advanced, fiendish, and giant templates to help power foes up. Class levels have been added, hit points maxed, and when called for mythic tier/ranks have been increased. But that's been only a small part of my rebuilds.

More hit points. I'm just slapping more HP onto the monsters. Both groups have some really solid damage output, so I've added a few hundred HP here and there as needed. It's a quick fix, and while it isn't really reflected in the rules, it's been working pretty well to make the big fights last longer, and give the bad guys more oomph.

Bonus feats. A lot of my monsters have had cleave, whirlwind attack, or vital strike added on as needed, and many a foe has kept on going thanks to die hard. Just more feats.

But the biggest thing I've done is give the bad guys a limited pool of extra actions. Since a big problem (in my experience) with having a larger group is trying to balance the action economy, I decided that to hell with it, I was just going to give my baddies more action for the encounter. I've given significant foes either "banked" actions (like 2 extra move actions, or 1 extra full round action, or 3 extra spell casting standard actions, or whatever). The combination of extra hp and more actions, has made for some really effective foes and has streamlined my modifications to the AP in general.

Important thing has been reading the fights, and knowing when to scale back my mods, or have a bad guy get powered up on them in some obvious way. I went a bit too far with the chimera, and almost made him simply flat out overwhelming, so I toned him down in fight (he ran out of mythic power, and could no longer take all those extra actions, more breath weapon uses, etc.)

I've also been careful to leave some encounters basically alone. The groups are both well put together, with tough and capable heroes. They should get to curb stomp some encounters like it's nothing. I save the dirty tricks for the story point encounters.

I was upfront with my players about these sort of changes in advance, and they were all pretty cool with them. They want the big fights to be big fights as well after all, for the risk to be there. I've dropped a few PC's, and have gotten close several other times as well.

So if I were to make a recommendation for you, try playing around with the action economy and see what that does for your game. It's made mine run pretty well, for a lot less behind the screen work on my part, and fewer henchmonsters bogging down big fights.

Yes to all those things. I'm especially looking for ideas for additional legendary item abilities. But all that sounds super good. I'd definitely buy a second Mythic hard bound. Hell, I might be willing to buy a third party mythic book if they had some solid ideas and okay art...

I think the problem is with seeing it has something Iomedae is doing out of spite, and not a reflection of her displeasure.

Why don't the gods interact with mortals that often? Well, for starters, it's hard. Mortal's just don't get it. They don't get their religions right. They scuttle around, confused and miserable, and b~$!#ing at the gods to fix everything. But the gods can't. They've all agreed to be hands off, and work through intermediaries. Because if they were to fix everything, they'd all try to fix that everything in their own way, and mortals could never get better or grow.

But then something happens, and they do need to take a more direct hand. So, they call a bunch of mortals, hero's, up to their divine realm. They dumb themselves down from a manifestation/aspect/interpretation/yougettheideadon'tyou? of a concept that they normally exist as, and try to talk to them. Now, Iomedae has a bit of a leg up here, she was once a mortal, and kinda remembers what its like to have fleshy bits and a limited understanding of the workings of concepts, so there she is. She knows that mortals are just, well, mortals. They have limitations. She's cool with that, and because of the agreements not to go and kick over everyone else's concept/sandcastles, she's going to ask for some help. Task some of her champions with a job. But first, she needs to make sure they're on board. That they have some basic understanding of what's going on, feel them out. Make sure they're not a pack of sword monkeys, half-crazed murder bots, and madmen poking at reality until it spits out spells (you know, like almost every band of adventurers in the history of D&D is, I know I play that way more often than not, it's part of the fun). She asks them a few of what she figures are softball questions to warm them up, and than throws in the open ended philosophical question.

If they get it wrong, they're blasted by the trumpets of the heavenly chorus in attendance, which is kind of an extension of her will/subconscious/being. She rolls her eyes, and get frustrated, and the mortals start coming apart at the seems? What? Whatever, I'll put them back together, right as rain, before I send them home.

If they get it right, whew! Looks like the Inheritor is betting on the right mortals! Maybe they won't be utter bores (like she was, way back in the day), if any of THEM figure out a back door to divine status. That'd be nice! Anyway, here's a few tools to help you out, looks like you'll use them right and not just go and pawn them off for more ale and whores. Maybe you'll even be able to redeem and save my herald. Looks like you have the right frame of mind for it.

TL;DR
Don't think about it like this is a mortal, but like an extension of the universe that's trying to talk to you. It's not that she's being vindictive, necessarily, that's just how the annoyance of a god who doesn't have the time to fold themselves into an avatar manifests. Hence it being a mythic trial to simply experience and survive the encounter.

I think it's a matter of logistics as well. The demon's can get in because they have soft spots in reality that they're not afraid to use, even if it damages the fabric of reality in doing so. The good outsiders don't want to chance tearing apart reality by showing up in person, and in great numbers. So they help mortal champions out. It's a gamble, but it's worked out so far. Now, if the world wound began to expand like that, the good guys might indeed be much more willing to take the risk of reality fall out to get some angelic armies into the fray to try and contain the problem.

It's more a limitation of options (as the ones out there could cause more harm then good), then a lack of concern or lack of desire to get into the fight me thinks.

If you take in the number of mythic demons that the Worldwound can field, the destruction of the Fifth Crusade, and the hordes of plain jane demon that can be fielded, I think that the expansion seen is not at all unrealistic. While there will certainly be some road bumps along the way, in the form of little pockets of hero's, if character's with mythic power were not able to stem the tide, with access to personalized artifacts (via legendary item powers), the favor of gods, and the backing of the armies of the Fifth Crusade, the demon onslaught is going to keep on rolling. Little pockets of resistance, sure, but how long can it last? How much damage can they do before a mythic balor and his demon buddies show up to put them down, with cultist assassins to make that end permanent? And all that the alliance between Cheliax and hell is going to do is turn the nation into another front of the Blood War. They'll almost certainly hold out against the demon's longer for it, at what cost?

There will be a fight, for absolute sure, but I think the march of the Worldwound would not be easily stopped by the heroes of other adventure paths sprinkled across the continent. Hence it would be an adventure in and of itself to stop the advance...