Soraios's page

My take on 3.x and Pathfinder prestige classes is that they fall into three categories:

* the specialist (Assassin, Loremaster, etc.)
* the multiclass destination (Mystic Theurge, Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, etc.)
* the concept (PF Chronicler)

Given that serious multiclassing is now very painful (due to the loss of progression in class abilities), I am wondering whether the second category should be expanded to accomodate more multiclass options. Obviously, many of these have already been attempted in 3.5 in the various splat books, but these will need some work to provide an adequate progression and capstone to match Pathfinder prestige classes.

I particularly liked many of the PrCs in Complete Adventurer, some of which essentially required three (!) classes in order to qualify.

I'm not saying all possible combinations need their own prestige class, by the way.

I wasn't a huge fan of the alternate classes in the 3.5 splatbooks, but I thought they hit a home run with the Warlock. I really liked the idea of an arcane character built around spell-like abilities rather than spells. I even liked some elements of the 4.0 Warlock, particularly the Fey / Star / Infernal breakdown.

So here we have Pathfinder, which has greatly expanded the concept of Sorcerors. The bloodline concept is absolutely brilliant. I love it. Unfortunately, it also conceptually eliminates the warlock from the game, since an arcane character with an infernal bloodline is by definition a sorceror.

I understand that the Warlock is not OGL and that Paizo can't touch it.

So my question: How would you translate Warlocks into Pathfinder?

* Use them as printed in Complete Arcane?
* Consider them to be Sorcerors and go about your business?
* Create a new class?

And here's how I see missing the cap stone...I don't care. If you are actually still playing at level 20...chances are good you are still playing at level 21 so that one early level only delayed the capstone. If you aren't playing at level 20...you lost nothing.

It's not just the capstone stuff, it's the mid-level stuff too. Greater Rage is at 11. Advanced Rogue Talents around there too. If you are a heavy splasher, you can easily miss those things even in the mid-levels.

I hear you about the one fighter level, though. I can see that making sense for many non-spellcasters.

Making a paladin, lvl 5. Taking Bonded helper guy, more importantly an Ape. I'd like to stick him with light/medium armor proficiency and Exotic weapon focus (spiked chain). Under the druid Animal Compainion it states that any AC with an int greater than 3 can take any feat. Paladin's bonded helper has 6, so CHECK. In the 3.5 arms and equipment guide you could ride ogres and apes so I don't see that as a problem either so CHECK. Apes have fingers and most importantly thumbs so he could wield the spike chain, so CHECK.

What holes do you see with this other than it might be cheese but totally works as RAW.

I ride into battle (or scale a cliff) on top my fearsome mount, I drop from his back as we enter the fray. My enemies scatter as Fluffy raises to his back leg and whips his chain into their faces. Tripping and disarming them as I cleave their precious heads in.

I LOLed. Cheese factor 5, Mr. Sulu.

I have some initial observations about multiclassing in Pathfinder.

The big changes:

Favored Class Change: this is really not terribly significant as it was in 3.x. On the one hand, it allows freer multiclassing and prevents railroading races into particular classes, but the benefit of actually having a favored class is fairly minimal. Arguably, the favored class rule simply favors non-half-elf single-classed characters, who get to use the extra skill rank or hit point every level.

Capstone Abilities and No Dead Levels: these two game elements were obviously put in place to reward single-class characters for sticking with a class, and to address the multi-class bloat that occured in 3.x. The downside is that there is now a heavy price to pay when multiclassing -- the opportunity cost of never being able to get the higher level abilities. This is huge for all classes.

Class Skill Revision: Allowing class skills to apply to all future levels is a big change. This favors multiclassing; once you have Use Magic Device as a class skill, for instance, you can keep adding ranks to it even if your future levels are in classes without that class skill.

Comments:

In 3.x, there were essentially three kinds of multiclassers. The non-spellcaster who wanted a piece of every non-spellcasting class for optimization purposes, those who multiclassed to qualify for a specific prestige class, and those individuals who multiclassed purely for character concept.

After trying several different character builds, I am of the opinion that you had better have a very good reason to multiclass: either you are aiming for a prestige class or have a RP/concept reason to multiclass. Let me show you why.

An example of multiclassing that is worth it

Let's say I make a half-elf who wants to be a Cleric/Wizard Mystic Theurge. I'm putting most of my character points into Int, Wis, and maybe some Cha if I can spare it. If I take 3 levels each in Cleric and Wizard and 4 into Mystic Theurge, at 10th level I am a 7th level caster in each class. Let us assume that my DM lets me take the Practiced Spellcaster feat (from 3.5) two times and raise that to 10th caster level in each class.

What have I given up by multiclassing? The big ones are wizard bonus feats, lack of progression in arcane school abilities, divine channeling effectiveness, and lack of progression in domain powers. Also, I don't have access to 5th level spells.

To me, this is a fair exchange. I'm getting a huge amount of versatility but am only about 2/3 as powerful as a single class 10th level cleric or wizard. Probably the biggest downside to this build is the pitiful divine channeling effectiveness. Then again, Mystic Theurge has its own capstone abilities that will hopefully make the trip worthwhile.

An example of multiclassing that is not worth it

One of the more common builds in 3.x featured "splashing" of class levels to get cool class abilities (and some high saving throws) for non-spellcasters. Common splashes were Barbarian 1 (for rage and fast movement), Fighter 4 (for three feats and weapon specialization), Ranger 2 (for combat style), and Rogue 2 (for sneak attack and evasion).

So let's build a level 10 3.5 splasher in Pathfinder. We'll go Bbn2/Ftr4/Rgr2/Rog2.

On the plus side, we do get a lot of fun class powers and have a BAB of +9, a great Fort save and good Ref save.

What exactly are we giving up here? Well, the favored class rule is going to cost us at least 6 skill ranks or 6 hit points. And then there's the higher level class powers we will NEVER get, like:

* Greater Rage, Damage Reduction, Rage Powers ...
* Weapon and Armor Training/Mastery, more bonus feats ...
* Ranger spells, favored enemy progression, animal companion, favored terrain ...
* Rogue talents, more sneak attack ...

So while the splasher is fun in the early-mid levels, by the mid-late levels he flames out in comparison. The splasher will maintain a good BAB and saves but will fall behind due to the lack of progression in core class abilities -- unless of course the splasher's intention is to swap into a prestige class that has its own capstone abilities that justify all the multiclassing.

Yes, a female player. We already have another female player and are trying to have a balanced group.

The campaign is just about to kick off. Let me know if you are interested and I'll email you my details.

Ah this was the game I would have been looking for..unfortunately I never give my email address to anyone I don't know personally

Easy solution for that, friend ... just set up a new email address at gmail or yahoo, and you're off to the races.

A bit silly to let something like that keep you from a game you want to play.

signing up Ashenal, Human Rogue.

(email sent)

Oh, and I would be interested in joining any existing Pathfinder campaigns in the area too ... :)

Here is some more campaign info:

The Village of Dunlyle: a Pathfinder campaign setting for level one characters

Introduction

Tucked away on the northern frontier of civilization, in the middle of an old forest, lies Loch Viernan. On the cold shores of that deep, dark lake sits Dunlyle, a village of several dozen families. These men (and others of the good folk) are fishermen, farmers, craftsmen, and traders eking out a living and raising their families. The affairs of the larger world are none of their concern; indeed, most have never been more than a mile or two from their homes, and would like to keep it that way. Yet all are eager to hear news from travelers and merchants that find their way to Dunlyle.

Decades of peace have been a two-edged sword for the village; the people have prospered and multiplied, but most have grown soft compared to their forebears.

Player Character Guidelines

• All player characters are built on 15 points (standard fantasy) and must be of non-evil alignment.
• All standard races are allowed. Human, half-elf, half-orc and halfling characters should almost certainly be natives to Dunlyle; dwarves, elves, and gnomes are from nearby settlements of their people.
• Players are encouraged to develop backstories for their characters and relationships with other PCs. What is the character's family like? Why is this character an adventurer?
• All standard classes are allowed. Care should be taken to ensure that the class selection makes sense in connection with the history of the character.
• PCs begin play with the average amount of starting wealth per their class. After equipping, no more than ten percent of starting wealth should remain as coins.
• Prestige classes will be considered on a case-by-case basis. If you desire to pursue a prestige class, please notify the DM.
• All PCs are required to take one Knowledge, Craft, or Profession skill that relates to their background.
• PCs native to Dunlyle should strongly consider worshipping Erastil, Sarenrae, or the Druidical faith. Other non-evil faiths are tolerated but not practiced.
• This is a slow-experience, low magic campaign. We are going to take our time developing the characters to create an impactful campaign story together.