Ryze Kuja wrote:
Very well-thought-out response
I appreciate your response. It is clearly well thought out and went into a lot of detail addressing all of my questions! I did not quote the entire post, as it was very long, but I would like to respond to it.
I deliberately did not include the discussion about regular invisibility because that spell is difficult to adjudicate. You mention that it can be addressed "quickly", but I disagree. Here is the part of the Invisibility spell that really confounds your point on the subject:
Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.
So, if I decide that the person I am stealing from is not a friend nor a foe, just a target for theft, then they are? If I decide it, then that is my perception, right? Basically, I can decide not to break my invisibility when targeting a creature simply by deciding the target is not a foe? Example: I want to steal the wizard's headband of vast intellect. So, I decide, "You know, he's not a bad guy! I bet if that silly headband weren't clouding his judgment, he would stop attacking us. I'll help my friend here from the detrimental effects of that headband." And all of a sudden, he is not a foe anymore! He is a treasured ally, whom I am saving from the clutches of the vile headband. Now, I am using a beneficial effect on the target (in my perception)!
These types of arguments are beyond the scope of this thread, and I tried to deliberately avoid the discussion. You could easily say that is a garbage argument, and I would not entirely disagree. In general, it is fairly clear who is friend and who is foe, and mental gymnastics to switch it up is not in the spirit of the game. But, I did not want to have such debates, which is why I excluded that topic from the discussion.
Next, I have a small nitpick about treating Ranged Legerdemain as if it were a supernatural ability that produces a Mage Hand effect. I think that is a dangerous idea. Ranged Legerdemain does not mention the ability to move items within its range, and treating it as Mage Hand may be conferring abilities it does not possess. If the Disable Device skill or the Sleight of Hand skill offer ways that an item can move within the range of the effect, then by all means, I agree Ranged Legerdemain can move items. But, saying it grants telekinesis up to 5 lbs within range gives it more utility than the ability is supposed to confer. If you want Mage Hand, cast Mage Hand. If you want Ranged Legerdemain, that appears to be a completely different ability.
In fact, thinking more about it, I am unconvinced you can bring the item to you using Ranged Legerdemain at all. You could make a Sleight of Hand check to take the item from the target, but once it is taken, I think it is just lying unattended in their square. You can then make a Sleight of Hand check to hide the item, and that use may allow the item to move, but probably not 30 feet.
Additional problems using Mage Hand as the template for Ranged Legerdemain is that currently, the supernatural ability is just augmenting skills. This means if you are attacked while using Ranged Legerdemain for an action that takes multiple rounds, you can continue the action without any trouble. But, if it is instead just the Mage Hand spell (which requires concentration), then you need to make concentration checks. Additionally, you mention the Mage Hand spell is targeted while Ranged Legerdemain is not. Ranged Legerdemain is just an expanded use of two skills (allowing them to be used at 30 feet). I think it is a mistake to treat Ranged Legerdemain as the Mage Hand spell.
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Response to questions 2 & 3
Your responses to these questions make a lot of sense! Thank you! I realize, though, that I did not ask the question I really intended. I was questioning specifically the part of Take an Item Unnoticed referenced here:
If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.
*emphasis mine
Later, you explain that Sleight of Hand cannot be used during combat, but the quote above says that it can so long as the creature is unaware of my presence. Question #3 was related to the situation when you fail against a target in combat. Now, the target is aware that something was taken, but I was not sure if they are "aware of my presence".
When discussing combat awareness and thievery with a friend, my friend said, "Once they are aware a thief is about, they are automatically more on alert, making sleight of hand in combat impossible." This is what led to my thought of using that defensively (question 4), and just calling out "Thief!" to try to make everyone aware of the presence of any possible thieves in combat, protecting us for the duration from any would-be thieves. But, I did word that question rather poorly.
It makes sense that a combat maneuver could be used in combat, even if the target is aware of your presence. But, it does not explain when a target is or is not aware of my presence, especially if a Sleight of Hand check is perceived by the opponent.
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Response to questions 4 & 5
These two questions were worded very poorly, and you gave great responses regardless! I appreciate all of the thought you put into them, and what you say makes a lot of sense (with the exception of Sleight of Hand not being usable in combat).
For question 5, I asked the wrong question. I should have asked, "Should Take Item Unnoticed use of Sleight of Hand be only usable outside of combat?" And it appears from your answer, you believe the answer to be yes, and that in combat, only the Steal combat maneuver should be used. I appreciate your input, and that makes a lot of sense. I think I will suggest that to my group.