so i noticed that some feats from the cheliax pathfinder companion have shown up on d20pfsrd.com and i was looking at cornugon smash. is it just me, or is this feat completely awesome for a melee type?
i'd go so far as to say this is a must take for fighters and two handed weapon rogues (or any melee with the feats to spare), it's just that much better than any of the core feats. thoughts?
it appears to me that fleet should apply to all movement modes you have a move speed in. for instance, your animal companion takes fleet, increases all move modes by 5. possibly to movement gained from a spell as well. thoughts?
Mega Shark vs Giant Octopus: fighters and rogues LIVING TOGETHER (or how i learned to stop worrying and love the tiers) aka comparing the mechanical abilities of fighters and rogues with an eye to relative ranking in some sort of nebulous tier system
ok, this was inspired partially by the DPR thread, which i think many people missed the point of, and a couple of recent threads claiming rogues are useless and fighters are useless out of combat.
what i've attempted to do is use each class to make a combo character that fights and has skills (ie, in combat and out of combat utility). by taking each down to the bare minimum, i'm hoping to show how well each class is balanced against the other as a bare chassis to hang your character concept on.
with PA vs ac24
v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
DPR Average 20.21 13.65
Attack +1 2.68 1.37
Damage +1 0.96 0.65
Extra Attack: 13.65
with PA and flank
v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
DPR Average 25.94 16.38
Attack +1 2.73 1.37
Damage +1 1.24 0.78
Extra Attack: 16.38
with composite longbow
v2.03 Full Attack Single Attack
DPR Average 5.36 3.71
Attack +1 0.83 0.41
Damage +1 0.72 0.50
Extra Attack: 3.71
on Combat:
defense - equal on hit points and CMD, but the fighter has better AC, though if you wanted to take a lot of cha based skills as a fighter you'd prolly have to switch cha and dex which would even up ac. mobility is an issue for the rogue if mithral armor isn't available for some reason. improved uncanny dodge gives a nice situational boost, and the rogue's touch ac is slightly better. also, the fighter could make use of a shield if circumstances called for it for some reason. saving throws are basically a wash. i wouldn't call it an overwhelming victory for the fighter, but i am gonna say the fighter is better at defense.
DPR offense - raw damage output with a heavy blade, the fighter wins. in situations where sneak attack is useable the damage is about the same. however, the rogue benefits more from extra pluses to hit than the fighter, so in any reasonable 10th level party the rogue will have the dpr advantage in a sneak attack. also, once you get around a +3 bonus to hit, power attack actually increases damage for the rogue when sneak attacking as well. what's interesting too is that when not using a favored weapon, the rogue and fighter damage output is the same, even when the rogue isn't sneak attacking. if forced to attack with say a dagger or club, rogue is actually as effective as the fighter, and more so if sneak is available. i give the fighter the edge here because the rogue is more situational, but once again not a shut out victory for the fighter.
funky stuff - the fighter has 5 unused general feats and one unused combat feat. as i'll show below, if you want to use dex or cha based skills, the fighter will need to use some of those feats to equal the skill output of the rogue, so to keep it even, not all those feats could likely be used for combat. the rogue has 4 unused general feats and 2 minor and 1 major unused rogue talents. the rogue can take pretty much anything the fighter can take (lunge, step up, etc), but the rogue has some options the fighter just has no way to emulate (dispelling attack tree, stand up, crippling strike, etc). looking ahead a bit, the abilities diverge more as level increases and the fighter starts to get some things the rogue can't (penetrating strike, double critical effects), so i think i have to call this one a tie.
Overall Combat Winner: fighter. the rogue is no slouch and has the potential for some nice options, but the fighter is just over all less situational.
on nonCombat activities
both builds get 7 points a level, and armor check penalties are the same.
dex skills - huge advantage for the rogue here. all the dex skills are class skills except ride and fly. fighter only gets ride. what this means is the fighter has to take feats to make up not only the class skill bonus, but the rogue's better dex. ie, the fighter with max ranks in stealth and escape artist and the stealthy feat by tenth level will have exactly the same check as the rogue with max ranks in those two skills.
cha skills - another huge advantage for the rogue. out of 6 skills, fighter has 2, rogue has five. to really make a go of the cha skills, you'd have to switch the fighter's dex and cha scores, and he'd still be worse than the rogue if the rogue made cha the dump stat instead of int. you can make up for this by having the fighter use feats, but it is at the cost of expanding combat options.
wis skills - slight advantage to the rogue here mainly because of perception being a class skill.
str skills - slight advantage to the rogue because of higher stat. both skills are class skills for both builds.
int skills - this is the only place the fighter has the advantage. the heavy int investment to get enough skill points to match the rogue means the fighter can be rather more effective than the rogue here. if you want to switch the rogues int and cha, the rogue honestly doesn't give up much vs the fighter in other areas (and would in fact gain 2 extra skill points a level), but still would lag here.
Overall nonCombat Winner: rogue. the fighter is no slouch with 7 skill points a level, but the rogue just has better class skill lists, and the option to take some talents that the fighter doesn't have access to. certain specific builds favor the fighter, but the rogue is much more flexible.
on Multiclassing
each class sees a rather large benefit from a one level dip into the other class. fighter gets a nice +3 to a lot of desirable skills, a few extra skill points, and a d6 sneak attack at the cost of +1 BAB and a hit point. the rogue gains heavy armor and shields, all martial weapons, and an extra combat feat and general feat (thanks to medium armor prof being freed up) at the cost of a few skill points and delaying a major rogue talent. with either of these builds it would be almost silly not to dip in fact.
Who Wins?
it seems pretty clear to me that mechanically, you'd have a great deal of difficulty telling the difference between having the skill focused fighter with a level of rogue or the combat focused rogue with a level of fighter in your party. the fighter obviously is easier to get better at fighting, and the rogue is easier to get better at skills, but they seem to be pretty evenly balanced, and i'd say they're pretty clearly on the same tier.
so to all those that ask what the fighter can do out of combat, and what good the rogue is in combat, the answer is that each has about as much to offer as the other. how important combat vs out of combat stuff is in your campaign would really determine which is the better choice for any given person that wants a character with a nice mix of skills and fighting and is considering both classes.
Other Thoughts
to me, how well balanced a class is vs another is determined by how easily the other class can take over the perceived duties of that other class. if they meet near the middle, it seems to be a good indicator that they're balanced relative to each other. i picked fighters and rogues for this comparison because of a couple of silly threads that popped up recently, and because it's a relatively straight forward comparison. the value of their respective abilities is generally directly comparable.
also, the reason i didn't take magic items directly into account is because i feel that just muddies the waters. the distribution and availibility of magic is very campaign specific, so i feel it's much more informative to only consider what the class itself grants and address magic and equipment only in a general way.
let's say tenth level half orc rogue wielding a falchion is flanking an enemy. rogue has minor magic (acid splash) and took quicken spell like ability as tenth level talent.
rogue does full attack, all falchion strikes count as sneak attacks. if she also casts quickened acid splash, would that count as sneak attack?
ok, i've just been informed in another thread that most people rule the item creation feats don't actually allow you to make items half price, as this would allow you to overcome the wealth by level guidelines, effectively doubling the amount of magical treasure a character with these feats has vs one that doesn't.
so i'm wondering, how common is this idea, and if you subscribe to it, i see only two solutions.
1. ban item creation feats
2. treasure hoards only contain weapons, armor, gear, and magic items as these are the things that sell at half price. actual money, jewelry, and trade goods such as spices and silk a character can sell full price, and thus use the item creation feats in an inappropriate way (if you buy this interpretation), and thus can never be part of a horde as the item creation character would be able to sell these off full price.
flurry states a monk applies his full str bonus on all attacks during a flurry. does this mean 1.5 str bonus with a staff?
improved unarmed strike for a monk states that a monks unarmed strike is never considered off hand. does this mean that all unarmed strikes during a power attack flurry get +2 damage per -1 to hit?
flurry states a monk may make an additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon as if using two weapon fighting feat. does this require that the extra strike be with a different weapon or strike, or can they all be from the same weapon?
ok, just wondering here. the way i read two weapon fighting, it looks to me like a rogue dual wielding hand or light crossbows should be able to shoot them both during a sniping action, thus getting sneak attack dice on both bolts. thoughts?
based on the way i'm reading these, it looks like you can't use scorpion style in conjunction with spring attack. can someone please convince me otherwise?
i'm new to pathfinder, just started checking it out a few weeks ago, and i really like what i see so far. however, i felt there could be a few more rogue talents to help a scout type build. i think these are in line with the existing ones, but if anybody sees anything game breaking let me know.
Tree hugger - move up to normal speed without penalty when making survival checks for anything other than tracking. Must have at least 1 rank in survival and knowledge nature.
Monkey hands - move up to half speed without penalty when climbing. Retain dexterity bonus to AC while climbing.
Part fish - move up to half speed as a move action while swimming. Move up to your speed as a full round action. Hold your breath twice as long as normal (4 times constitution score).
Idiom master - you speak any language you know as if it were your native tongue, and you may choose to sound like you are from any region or place with a distinctive dialect. Additionally, when someone else is speaking a language you know, you know where they're from based on their accent. You gain a +4 on disguise checks that require speaking and a +2 on diplomacy checks when speaking the NPC's native tongue. Requires at least 1 rank in linguistics and knowledge geography. Must also have 1 rank in knowledge planes to use this ability with languages of outsiders.
Smooth talker - diplomacy checks to gather information take you half as long as normal. Diplomacy checks to influence attitude last twice as long as normal.
Trick rider - you may use an acrobatics check instead of a ride check for mounted tasks. Requires at least 1 rank in ride and handle animal.
Follow your gut - sense motive checks to get a hunch or detect enchantment only take a round rather than a minute. After a minute you receive a second check if the first failed.
Contortionist - you can escape restraints or squeeze through a tight space in a round instead of a minute. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a move action for you. Escaping from a grapple or pin is also a move action. You must have at least 5 ranks in escape artist to take this.
Fence in training - if you fail an appraise check by five or more you never get a wildly inaccurate result, you instead realize you just don't know. Appraise checks are move actions. If you activate a magic item with UMD or cast detect magic you may make an appraise check at the same DC as a spellcraft check to identify exact properties. This requires at least one rank in appraise, UMD, and spellcraft.
Good enough for government work - you do not take a penalty to skill checks on any skill you have ranks in when using improvised tools.
