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I'll add as a casual reader/lurker on many of these threads that a common argument in favor of wizards is fear and slow. That those spells come up all the time it does strike me as an issue. Like, if you have the arcane list and not using those spells you are doing something wrong. That sounds like an issue to me.
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How about viewing this from the other side? From reading this whole thread it seems like spellguard shield is too good. +2 to saves and a +2 to AC? Maybe everyone being able to take the Raise Shield action is too good. Maybe shields should have a proficiency again so shields aren't a utility magic item slot to get what is best for your character. Like all those characters who weren't ever seen as using shields but its too good not to.
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Out of all of those choices I'd prefer 1. What didn't work with 1st Ed rage? Or especially the unchained version? One of my PCs has played a barbarian so far and didn't like it. "Didn't feel like rage did anything or was worth it." This was at level 4 while playing fury totem (probably the most boring totem). But still if your main class feature is not fun then something needs changing.
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My players have said that creating characters has gotten easier and quicker each time. We're on Part 3 now. I don't understand the idea of giving out item levels rather than a gold piece total. I think that part does currently slow things down. I also agree with removing ability scores at this point. As for the slower ability progression either:
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I suspect the goals of exploration mode would be to support the hex based exploration sections that make it into many modules and APs. I don't even mind that as a goal, it could lead to those sections being further fleshed out and using more skills. However, the current page of rules and ideas lead to confusion. Taken one way the seem to be very limiting on what characters can do, like it uses an action to have your weapon out? Or two if you use a shield as well? Are PCs supposed to break down their actions to avoid fatigue? Hmm, I can't use 20 actions or I'll be tired. So I guess I'll spend 10 actions moving, 6 actions investigating and 3 actions searching. And at 19 actions I won't be fatigued.
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I agree with Godfrey. Why are you assuming high level magic skill adjustments? If math is so important you have the ability to remove those and keep DCs more concise and manageable. Bring the power to the hero and the character and not to whatever magic item they are using. This goes for magic weapons as well.
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This question comes from an encounter in Pale Mountain so minor spoilers will follow. On one encounter the monster 'notices the PCs unless the entire party is stealthy in their exploration.' Is this to be taken literally? Is it useful to just say you're being stealthy even if you're not good at it? If it matters this creature has a perception of +13 so it is highly unlikely that a whole party could sneak by it.
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I will add that me sacrificing my attack and chance to be a hero to slightly add to someone else's damage isn't terribly fun. Also, I'm guessing by the weapons and stat arrays this character may have an equal chance of hitting as critically failing which the average/below average barbarian won't appreciate. Also curious as you mentioned dirge and demoralize (which don't stack?) what are the checks frightened pertains to? I thought it would be everything listed on 290 but frightened also mentions saving throws which is on that page.
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As a small and minor note I don't think the action system has completely nerfed casters. In my games both 1st and 4th level casters have cast multiple spells in a round which was not possible before this. I don't know if its a good idea at times but it is possible.
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One of my players said the creation process was dry but couldn't nail down why. One of my players took 5+ hours to create their 4th level character for Pt 2 of DD. The other three players were in the 45-90 minute range. This was their 1st or 2nd character made for PF2, doesn't seem too bad for me. I have created several 1st level characters, takes me about 15 minutes. As of now I don't think there are very meaningful choices which speeds things up. I do not like powers being mixed in with spells. There doesn't seem to be a reason that powers shouldn't be in their class section as I don't see them being shared between classes. Although that's hard to tell as powers just say power#, and not what has access to it. Backgrounds still feel meaningless to me. I do not like the items as listed for higher level characters. Its extremely arbitrary as to what makes the list and what doesn't. The price ranges within the same level are baffling as is the limitation on heavy armor (as if it doesn't have enough problems) EDIT: Looking up where spell points are for each class has been annoying. If you're keeping the opening stat sidebar for each class, just put it there.
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I've had a few thoughts about this over the years. It mostly boils down to why do people care about healing between encounters? As in; why is this a thing we need to care about? Its not exciting, or heroic, and it really doesn't add to any kind of story. I thought that healing surges from 4th Ed was one of their good ideas. As for wands and other consumables, how about if they automatically scaled (heightened) depending on the users level? Like a 4th level fighter would get the effects of a 2nd level potion. Would that be a more fun way to avoid spamming low level effects?
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I also have no idea why your PCs are always dying. I've ran my group through the first 1.5 adventures and they have never been close to a TPK.* All the critical hits people write about, how? The attack bonuses for Pale Mountain are +9 and +7; +9; +9 or 7 and +10 or 9; and +12. My PCs that took the most attacks had ACs of 20, 22 (w/shield), and 20 (or 22 once/round). So pretty much all of those attacks need a 20, or down to 18 with flat footed or who knows. That range of crits isn't out of control. Or in Lost Star ACs were 15-17. With the impressive (and it is odd) +6 by most monsters that still leaves crits at the 19-20 range. *note: they did not fight Drakus as it was late and one crazy PC thought he could take him on by himself. He couldn't.
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Zi Mishkal wrote:
The PCs do? I thought the gnolls had all of the advantages as they were on the far side of the river with bows.
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I've run all of the first chapter of DD and we're 3 encounters into Pale Mountain and have had one PC death and only 2 PCs go to zero. We were robbed of the difficulty of the last fight in Lost Star do to poor PC tactics which split the party. However skill wis and general power-wise all of these PCs feel weaker than their first Ed counterparts. So saying they succeed in everything is far from the truth at lower levels.
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Darksol the Painbringer wrote: When a level 2 creature does 11D6 damage on a swing, or when a level 7 creature can cast Time Stop as an Innate ability, are they really errors, or are they just modifications that the developers made solely for this creature? This is an extremely funny point to bring up as there is a CR 7 creature with a 9th level spell, and a CR 8 creature with a 9th level spell in PF 1. Did you think those were errors or random modifications? At first I disliked that monsters didn't use the same rules as PCs. Then I realized that they 'cheated' all the time in PF1 monsters to abide by the rules so it doesn't matter. Another example as I'm going through Hell's Rebels: why does an Erinyes, a 9HD outsider (likely the toughest creature type) get 2 bonus feats? Isn't that ignoring PC creation rules? Anyways, what they are doing in PF2 is not a new thing, its just obvious.
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I'll agree with the buff the rest of the ancestry (RACE!) crowd and leave the two mentioned feats alone. Even those feats can be boring depending on your class. I was going to take ambition as a barbarian until I looked and realized I didn't want any of their level 1 powers to begin with.
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MaxAstro wrote:
So what does skill proficiency represent if not time spent learning? Either way, the skill feats are largely underwhelming and mostly irrelevant. So I agree with you, skill feats could be removed.
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So if the ambushed party wins initiative, what do they do? Do they know they rolled initiative and all start to Seek? While this seems silly if the sneaking person doesn't get surprise, then why roll initiative? Or I suppose they all ready actions since combat has started? Not to mention the sneaker drops out of stealth before the attack.
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Those are fair and accurate points about tactics and builds. But I think the original comment was more along the lines of 'this NPC cannot do this, so why include it in tactics?' Unless you think that NPC should whip out their healing kit to heal themselves in the middle of combat. Or if the magus in book 2 should figure out how to cast mirror image on his allies because his tactics say so.
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Thank you very much! I had started to read this once upon a time and had lost it since then. Also, judging by the length of this thread, I'd say a lot of people enjoy this sort of thing. Although it is a bit sad that your group has grown in ways, there aren't nearly as many silly moments anymore.
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Ha. That certainly makes it seem like a last name. I was going off of the back cover with lines such as... "Stavian I, firstborn of Micheaux, First of his name" obviously they should have the same last name. "(Stavian I) was succeeded by Dominus II" So I will change my stance. The only thing that is clear is that nothing is clear.
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I have two quick questions or criticisms about plot related things.
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No wonder common troops are a threat to them. Wow, I have never seen someone go without armor just because. Nevermind mithral, a normal chain shirt would increase their AC they don't need these plans to spend thousands when they could outfit themselves like beginning characters.
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deuxhero wrote:
No problem, I think we're in agreement here in that it's better to assume magic is more available than not.
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There is an adjusted creature size chart on page 212 that shifts a huge creature to medium first and adjusts the physical stats. PS: your listed PCs seem to have really low ACs for characters of their level. Our 7th level PCs have ACs between 23 and 27 before buffs in Hell's Rebels.
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This is from Ultimate Intrigue pg 102: succeeding at a discovery check lets you learn one of the skills to influence the NPC(starting with the skill with the lowest DC), one of their strengths or one of their weaknesses. For every 5 you beat the DC by the PC learns one additional skill, strength or weakness.
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I agree that a new edition is needed, and I look forward to it. Like the above DM I have also been playing since D&D. As the FAQ mentioned PF has been here since 2008 and was based on 10 ish years of 3rd Ed. That means this has been around for nearly 18 years, its time for a change or past time. Or people could also visit the threads bringing up power creep and rules bloat. I suppose they could opt to not publish new books butt hat doesn't sound like a sound idea either.
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