The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER filled zone, do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.
This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 3 of the War for the Crown Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:
So, I guess I need to ask. Where's area N?
So, I guess I need to ask. Where's area N?
Check the map on page 12. N is the southern gate on the top left map of Yandass, and is detailed on the bottom right map ("Xan strikes").
Ah, and found it on page 21 as well. Thanks, since the entirety of area L was detailed later on, I didn't think to check back so far into the book.
Really dig this one, but I feel like the titular Twilight Child would be better off as a genuine surprise. Making him the title of the book makes it clear to the PC's that the cult is the true threat when the rest of the adventure feels like its written assuming the PC's won't take the cult seriously until the big reveal.
If/when I run this, I would just have Martella mention there's a new cult in town that's possibly benign, but there isn't any clear information. Then when the PC's go to watch the cult's service they get the shocking reveal of the Twilight Child's identity!
Also, why is the (assumed) final conflict with Xan in the middle of the book instead of the end? Not really a problem, just confused about this choice for the layout of the adventure.
Conflict with Xan is the final event and list of events is in the book before rest of the dungeons and such in the book.
Ah okay, that makes sense.
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I have two quick questions or criticisms about plot related things.
1) Wouldn't it be a better hook if the PC's didn't know about Carrius from the beginning? It may also not make the cult angle such an appealing first mission. (which is odd how this AP doesn't balance the first three choices)
2) I know APs leave clues in letters all the time but how would the note on pg 28 read? Who would refer to themselves as their alias and their real name in the same letter? This seems very odd to me, unless I'm misreading something.
3) The other notes are also odd. What would you tell your underlings that would enable others to know where the money comes from?
Regarding #2, maybe it's a mix of different letters, some signed with his name, others signed with the alias, but all in the same handwriting.
From what we know so far, isn't Xan right about Carrius being resurrected outside the natural process? Would Xan know about the extra souls coming back with him? It seems like he should.
This could be a bit early but are there contingencies for what happens if the prince doesn't make it? I could easily see PCs turning him over, or Xan killing him, or defeating the PCs considering they could fight him at 7th or 8th level.
Hi Ron. First of all, in case I forget, thank you for your very long and in depth response.
I think I read a bit too much into Xan's history and thought those mutilations in the Astral plane have something to do with the extra souls. Or I thought Xan might know that and use that information to try to convince the PCs that he's right. Especially since removing the prince here seems like it cuts out the final two chapters.
I also know that one of my PCs is heavily looking at an inquisitor of Abadar as a character which is going to throw more importance on the cult. My PCs are classically known for having a singular focus so I'm concerned about them latching onto this and not letting go.
Thanks again, you've given me plenty of ideas to work with on this part.
So Aresphena tries to trick PCs into looking horrified for her tableau, while also keeping up her innocent facade.
...How would one go about doing that? Any ideas?
So far all I've got is "She tells you her story, which involves such brutal and horrifically triggering things having happened to her that I don't want to repeat them".
There are two separate stat blocks in this book that reference Bestiary 7. I couldn't find any news about a new bestiary. Is this a typo, twice? Thanks.
That's Bestiary 1, page 7. The aasimar.
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Getting ready to start Book 3, and I was wondering how other GM's first few games in book 3 went? Any unusual detours that the PC's took or rabbit holes you didn't expect? Did they immediately go after the plot hook with the Twilight Child, or did they work against Yandass and the Imperialist's plot/issues?
Just asking on how it went for others, as I know my group loves the open-endedness of this AP so far...and I have this bad feeling they will find a rabbit hole I didn't expect. This way I can hopefully see how it went for others, and maybe won't be blind sighted (as bad) by my group.
Getting ready to start Book 3, and I was wondering how other GM's first few games in book 3 went? Any unusual detours that the PC's took or rabbit holes you didn't expect? Did they immediately go after the plot hook with the Twilight Child, or did they work against Yandass and the Imperialist's plot/issues?
Just asking on how it went for others, as I know my group loves the open-endedness of this AP so far...and I have this bad feeling they will find a rabbit hole I didn't expect. This way I can hopefully see how it went for others, and maybe won't be blind sighted (as bad) by my group.
My group has almost finished Book 3 (they're just about to head to the Encircling Bower to free 'Carrius'). I also had similar worries when we started. I thought they would immediately go after Carrius, but they have actually ended up following all the Parts in the right order. I have a paladin in my group and I think if I had told them about Carrius when Martella gave them the mission that he would have charged off after this potential 'undead'. I decided that Martella/Sir Meir didn't know about Carrius being the centre of the cult, and they slowly found that out instead once they got to Yanmass and started investigating. When I roleplayed the councillors I also had them make fun of Abrun for being so concerned about the cult and really made the other four concerned about the other issues plagueing Yanmass. My group of heroes made a 'priority list' or problems to tackle and the cult ended up falling to the bottom since it just didn't seem the most pressing (this is also after they attended a ceremony to check in out and met Xan). However, I would suggest that you have a backup plan IF they do decide to go off the rails and charge to Part 4 at level 8.
Also, the nightmares are a huge issue. You should definitely make your players (or all of them) have nightmares and spend the day fatigued. That will kick their butts into gear to find the pairakas and start them along the right path. I just made all the other problems seem more urgent whereas the cult is "benign" as the book says. They're only helping people feel safe in these uncertain times, after all.
I've written summaries of our sessions if you want to give them a read through to see how it played out for us: https://wordpress.com/post/d20tabletalk.wordpress.com/158
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Minor question.
Argentus (in Savories) is supposed to be using his wand of charm person and his Suggestion spell to make the PCs more agreeable to him. How is he... doing this?
I assume he's not walking up to their table with drink refills and shouting HOCUS POCUS to cast Suggestion on literally just one person, but he doesn't seem to have any way to do it more subtly.
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Gotta love the flavor text that writers use on attempting to use items "creatively".
Prefacing this with I haven't gotten to here yet in running, and when I do things will likely be upscaled in NPC and Ice golem (since I have 6 players at the table instead of 4). So Argentus will likely be 1-2 levels higher, and the ice golem might be either advanced, or be given more hp than the average the bestiary gives.
I liked how Argentus uses charm person and suggestion to make diners like his food and give him good reviews...especially since I plan on playing him up as a semi-sleazy sczarni type of person. How he gets the PC's under it might require a bit more gentle hand. Especially since you as a GM saying, "Give me a will save" would immediately make them suspicious.
With that....
On how he uses the wand and spells on others....I would assume that since there are just 4 tables (E map only has 4 tables), that maybe there is a way that Argentus can get a line of sight on anybody in any of the tables from the west side behind the last set of tables. LOS would allow the charm person or suggestion to be cast less obviously. Maybe a opposed bluff vs. sense motive, or perception.
Additionally, you can look up and see if there are any reagents that would allow a negative in will saves for charm or compulsion spells. Brain Mold Fungus would add to duration, but maybe Argentus spikes the food or drink with mild sedatives and such to make people more suggestible.
So with that, I would be rolling the will saves in private, or at least knowing the players saves. That way I could just ask the players "Let's see how well you thought of the meal, go ahead and roll a d20 and let me look at a chart real quick...." when in reality they are rolling the will save, though still look at a piece of paper or a screen or something.
Last...honestly, the whole encounter E felt that it was supposed to fall apart and the PC's were to confront Argentus....so hopefully you will get 1-2 PC's thinking it is the best meal ever, 1 maybe confused on why everybody else is thinking that, and 1 would likely find this all suspicious and start the encounter.
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Xan's write-up seems a little off.
It states he has a Caster Level of 9, which not only is LOWER than a standard of his race (CL 10) but is insufficient to get the quicken spell-like ability feat.
I'm knocking it up to 14 (his HD) which will also have an affect on some of his other SLA, but not to any huge extent.
I am actually ascribing the PC’s knowledge of the Cult to Parthena’s cousin. She has been going on about Yanmass fashion imports for a good half of book two, so it’s looking quite harmless as an addition.
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This may seem like a fairly boneheaded and obvious thing but if your party sets off the swarm of insects trap in Tallgrasses maybe send 1 swarm (maybe 2) and not the 4 that creeping doom specifies. My group had to sacrifice Grimtusk and two Taldan Horse to BARELY survive that trap. I should have realized that it would be bad before they set off the trap.
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So I'm trying to work out where exactly Tallgrasses is. The entry says it's "about 15 miles west of Taldor on the Whistling Plains." I'm assuming that's a typo, since the Whistling plains are on the Eastern Side of Taldor (and 15 miles West of Taldor puts it in Andoran), so my question is: 15 miles WEST of the Qadiran Border, or 15 miles EAST of Taldor? Or is it just 15 miles EAST of Yanmass? Since 15 miles west of Yanmass puts it on the other side of Brokenbridge River, in the Northern Tandak Prefecture. So I think the most reasonable conclusion is that it's 15 miles East of Yanmass, or am I totally off base?
The Taldan Horse regiment that is assigned to patrolling the plains east of Yanmass, how big is it supposed to? The only reference is Martella's "two dozen or so", but that seems awfully tiny for something called a regiment, and not really a lot of soldiers to patrol an area like that, doesn't it?`Am I missing something?
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The Taldan Horse regiment that is assigned to patrolling the plains east of Yanmass, how big is it supposed to? The only reference is Martella's "two dozen or so", but that seems awfully tiny for something called a regiment, and not really a lot of soldiers to patrol an area like that, doesn't it?`Am I missing something?
I'd imagine that in peace time the Taldan Horse are deployed in a large number of small mobile units for scouting and patrol, to be rallied in larger numbers in the event of a large scale conflict.
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Well, my players outdid themselves. Half the party got killed in the Encircling Bower, and the remaining two got to Carrius and decided that if Panivar Lotheed was involved in his resurrection, nothing good could come of his existence. They believed Xan's talk of abomination completely. They executed the prince in his cell and burned his body to keep Martella from learning about it. The two survivors swore that they would never talk about what happened in the Bower.
So...I guess that's going to be a heavy rewrite of Book 6.
That is ... unfortunate.
Ever since I had started the AP, I was worried my group would do something like that; the adventure has a sidebar specifically handling the dilemma but only from the side of "Of course no one will side with Xan, but given that you obviously won't side with him, what if you're a cleric of Pharasma?" I had a plan in place to potentially change their minds, but my players fortunately didn't even consider it in the end.
Book does point out Panivar might try again.
book 4 and 5 would also need some rewrite in case Carrius stay dead.
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Well, this kind of plays into my significant changes to the entire AP with writing my player's backstories into the campaign.
Ultimately I made Panivar and Nanareen in a kind of centuries long competition to create functional life. Panivar started with his research into recreating Valetto and carried that through to creating the variant attic whisperer and then Carrius.
Nanareen has been making clones of herself for centuries (the earliest were simple fleshwarp horrors that she used to get revenge on the Adellas) in order to build a perfect human body. One of the pc's in the game is one of her escaped clones.
So the answer is, have Panivar have doubled down on his research and created a second body for Carrius ready to receive the patchwork soul. Even better have that soul still be aware of what they did to Carrius in the Bower and maybe have a showdown where new Carrius tells Eutropia that the party butchered him while he was defenseless and fracture their relationship.
That is what I would do.
What can I say, hilarity–and some shaking of heads–ensued when I revealed to my players that one of the divs was named "NAZININA".
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So, I may have a problem...
My players entered Sanguine Brothers', and delt with the barghest quite easily, and the first Div not so easily (unlimited charm monster can cause a few problems, who knew?)
They then managd to trigger the festering spirit and rot grub swarms in quick succession, which caused all sorts of problems with Con damage and having to include characters in area effects in order to remove rot grub infestation.
THEN they discovered that there are three more Divs in the building. They are more than a little worried, and low on resources. There is a serious push from within the players to retreat and do, something...
Ideas vary from "come back tomorrow", through "alert the firewatch/council", to "maybe we can bring the Bravos in on it, to show how the country could work together" [smirk].
Now, obviously, once the Div leave their towers for the night's dream inducing, they will realise that they have been attacked. So they'll relocate (probably using animal shape and dimension door, so they won't be able to take too much with them), and then lay low for a while, before starting everything up again. But as to the details, and how it will effect the story, I'm at a bit of a loss.
Any suggestions?
Have the Div use Survival to track the PCs back to their inn.
What are the "Personal Phases" talked about in this book?
What are the "Personal Phases" talked about in this book?
See Book 2's Appendix
My players entered Sanguine Brothers', and delt with the barghest quite easily, and the first Div not so easily (unlimited charm monster can cause a few problems, who knew?)
My players just tried this tonight as well... wow. Two of them charmed by the first Div, set to attack two other PCs with very good reasons. One invisible wizard PC managed to cast Protection vs. Evil on Charmed PC 1, and he managed his save to break out of the enchantment...
The other two PCs are running away in a nearby alley, pursued by Charmed PC 2, but they managed to Hold Person that one.
Fun times!
We regroup next week with the Greater Bargest running after group 2 in the alley while invisible... I have yet to decide if he will bite off the head of Charmed PC 2 that is under Hold Person right now, or keep running past her and attack the other two fleeing PCs.
Decisions, decisions...
Thanks. Still on first read through to get feel for the game. Should not skip appdexies.
Well we have made it to this book (I am Seenar BTW, but decided to just use my own name)>
I added the full council and gave each of them a persona based mission as something that they want out of the players. This gives them more to do, and as my group has 7 in it right now, man, I have to give them more to stop them charging straight though.
I made the whole council into Persona Phases so we can use the system. I have modified the possible missions as well.
What is funny, is that my group immediately charged off on the main encounters, having, of course, split up first. I dropped a player when the assassins came for Abrun. Good thing Abrun is a cleric. It was interesting to say the least.
Here is a link to the Council in Persona Phase Stat Blocks, the Player's Guide to Yanmass (selectively edited), and my house rules for extra Persona Missions.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TRZdfR5GQrvNn7R8VXQrCoDaN4ypoPfl?us p=sharing
And, if you want to know how they messed things up with splitting up, here is the adventure journal link:
http://www.seenar.com/doku.php?id=game_systems:pathfinder:crown:adventure_j ournal#dark_days_in_yanmass
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So... how exactly do the incriminating letters work? It's a pretty big missing plot point.
"If you find ONE set of letters with an unknown person's alias, that isn't incriminating. But if you find TWO, well, obviously that's Yander Merkondus."
See the issue?
Anyone have any experience running this and come up with a solution?
EDIT: I'm guessing the point of each individual set of letters not being incriminating is so the PCs can't just solve 1/3 of Yanmass's problems, implicate Merkondus, and ignore the rest. That being the case, it still doesn't make sense to have each set of pseudonymous letters be insufficient, but both together sufficient.
I'm thinking of a few ideas:
1. The players (if not their characters) are going to instantly suspect Merkondus anyway. So maybe they sneak into his room and find an unsent letter with the same pseudonym.
2. If I delay the Bravos attack till later, I can plant a third letter on the people that everyone KNOWS Merkondus hired, with the pseudonym. That becomes sufficient to at least warrant further legal issues for the Earl.
3. Whoever they attack last (whether the "bandits" or the paraikas) decides to bargain once their HP gets to a certain threshold. "Wait, wait, do you want to find out who is behind all this or not? If you do, I'll tell you but I want immunity and a fifteen minute head start to escape." (Something along those lines).
4. Speak with dead might work for (3) if the PCs get stab happy.
5. In my specific party, one of the players is a relic channeler medium. They have object reading, so maybe the second set of evidence is psychically resonant enough to get a glimpse of Merkondus signing it--not enough for LEGAL condemnation, but enough for them to go confront him personally.
I dunno.
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Re-reading it several times, I guess Merkondus is supposed to identify himself as the Gray Kingmaker in one set of letters and then the incriminating material is signed "The Gray Kingmaker" in another set. That correct?
It's still weird. Like how does that letter go?
"Dear planar abomination,
I plan on calling myself The Gray Kingmaker in correspondence to other people. Aside from that, you can be assured I'm not involved in anything nefarious, despite writing a letter to a planar abomination responsible for horrific dreams and several assaults and deaths across town. Certainly this letter in your possession, addressed to you from me, is in no way sufficient evidence of my involvement in any of Yanmass's problems.
Sincerely,
Earl Yan Merkondus, aka The Gray Kingmaker"
I think its more that in one letter he accidentally drops a clue to his identity and in the second letter he accidentally drops a DIFFERENT clue to his identity.
AEach alone isn't sufficient but together they're sufficient for the PCs to identify him.
Yep
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That's not how I read it. In Soraya the paraika's chamber:
...correspondence from Earl Yander Merkondus to unnamed recipients, in which he identifies himself as "the Gray Kingmaker" several times. The correspondence doesn't include anything incriminating--Yander is too clever for that--but it's damning in connection with the materials in Jaliessa's chambers at Tallgrasses
In Jaliessa's chambers:
...correspondence to the traitors signed by someone called the "Gray Kingmaker". Although these notes don't indicate who the Gray Kingmaker is, when connected with the notes in Soraya's chambers... they prove that Earl Merkondus is behind both schemes.
So.
In the set of letters to unnamed people in Soraya's chambers, Earl Merkondus (who is "too clever" to incriminate himself) identifies himself as "the Gray Kingmaker" several times.
Then, being too clever to incriminate himself, he sends a bunch of letters to treasonous Taldan Horse guards, signed with the alias that he told the aforementioned "unnamed people" he was going to use.
******
I can see how you could read the first quote as the letters are from the Earl, under the name of The Gray Kingmaker. However, that naturally begs the question of "How do the players know those are from Earl Merkondus"? And the verb "identifies himself" to me says he, in some way, says "I = Gray Kingmaker".
In my campaign, the players decided the first day they met him in the council chambers, he was the one behind literally everything. Because hey, he's Pythareus's emissary. Their problem isn't figuring out who is responsible, it's finding a way to prove it.
Now, if the PCs do free Rhundle and don't kill him, he will tell them Soraya calls Merkondus "The Gray Kingmaker." However, that leads me to wonder why the testimony of a MEMBER OF THE MERCANTILE COUNCIL, who was kidnapped by paraika divs who knew and worked with/for the Earl Merkondus isn't enough to at least put a spike in anything the Earl says and does. I mean, citizens have died and mindlessly assaulted one another because of the div plot and a high-ranking member of the government has eye-witness testimony connecting them to the Earl... but that's not enough to at the very least, severely tarnish Merkondus's reputation?
I'd say I'm over-thinking this, but these are EXACTLY the kind of questions my players will ask. If they find direct eye-witness testimony that links Merkondus to the divs, they're not going to wait till they finish Area K to bring that to the Council and demand his arrest.