Natural Ambition and General Training should be removed and replaced


Ancestries & Backgrounds


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Natural Ambition seems like the most powerful ancestry feat in the entire game, with General Training in second place.

Looking at the other human ancestry feats and even other races' ancestry feats (particularly weak ribbons like the gnome's Fey Fellowship), it is clear that Natural Ambition is a great outlier; 1st-level class feats are major, build-defining options that directly improve a character's capacities. An alchemist with Far Lobber and Quick Bomber is a rather efficacious bomber. A bard can have both Lingering Composition for combat and Bardic Lore for Recalling Knowledge. A monk can have a Spell Point pool from Ki Strike, while also swinging around a bo staff with Monastic Weaponry. A ranger can Double Slice while also commanding a mount from Animal Companion to move around and attack. A sorcerer or a wizard can be quite flexible with both Reach Spell and Widen Spell.

General Training is slightly less egregious, yet still far more capable of patching up holes in a build than many other ancestry feats. For example, since skill feats are also general feats, General Training could also grant a character exactly the 1st-level skill feat they need.

I think it would be best for these two feats to be removed from the game entirely and possibly replaced, so that ancestry feats are kept as relatively minor benefits.


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Alternatively, other Ancestry Feats should be powered up.

The Dwarf Hatred options feel terrible.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:

Alternatively, other Ancestry Feats should be powered up.

The Dwarf Hatred options feel terrible.

Most of the ancestry feats do seem terribly narrow, but I think that this is more of a case of Natural Ambition and, to a lesser extent, General Training being outliers.


Colette Brunel wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Alternatively, other Ancestry Feats should be powered up.

The Dwarf Hatred options feel terrible.

Most of the ancestry feats do seem terribly narrow, but I think that this is more of a case of Natural Ambition and, to a lesser extent, General Training being outliers.

Well, kind of... like, the Weapon Familiarity feats aren't BAD – like, a Dwarf could get a Greataxe that's also a Battleaxe, so that's pretty handy if you wanna enchant a single item and be good at 2H and Shields.

It's pretty damn specialized though.


Humans are fine, the issues are the Dwarves have bad feats, Halflings have bad base abilities but good feats, Half-Elves have few/bad feats, the other ancestries may not have 5 good ancestry feats, but they have 3-4.


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Natural Ambition and General Training are out of scale compared to all other ancestries, already I disliked how much the extra talent humans had in 1st edition made them significantly better at most builds, but in 2nd edition the imbalance is enormous, as no other race has something as strong or versatile to rely on, while many choiches are downright mediocre


The Laziest Solution:

Give non-humans a "Favored Class" Heritage feat, which functions like Natural Ambition, but only for a predetermined set of classes – Dwarves with Paladins and Monks; Halflings with Rogues and Bards; Gnomes with Druids and Sorcerers; Elves with Wizards and Rangers...

I HATE it, but it's the laziest solution I could think of.


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Don't like this idea at all. The other races need more tuning, not knocking humans down. The fact that they're gain feat feats are limited to level 1 only makes them good, but not ridiculous.

But some do need to fixed:
Ancients Blood, for example, is aggressively terrible. A reaction (probably) bonus vs magic isn't worth crippling their resonance capability even more.

Others are fine, like the elf cantrip feat.

Many are just cute fluff abilities, and should just be built into the race's basic traits.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As another example of usage of human ancestry feats, a low-level sorcerer or wizard could take General Training for Armor Proficiency, thus saving themselves the trouble of having to cast mage armor.


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I agree. Given the nature of the system, granting class and general feats makes human/half elfs and half orcs way better then they outta be. I can see a single general feat at once, but being able to take it mutible times is way out of line in my option. Also yes I do beleive dwarfs are in need of a sprucing up to make them on par with the rest of the races.


Colette Brunel wrote:
As another example of usage of human ancestry feats, a low-level sorcerer or wizard could take General Training for Armor Proficiency, thus saving themselves the trouble of having to cast mage armor.

You're going to need to explain why that's bad.


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Voss wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
As another example of usage of human ancestry feats, a low-level sorcerer or wizard could take General Training for Armor Proficiency, thus saving themselves the trouble of having to cast mage armor.
You're going to need to explain why that's bad.

I think it is more that they can do preatty darn easily where other races really cant do that, or if they do they have to give up there general feat to do it type of thing.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Voss wrote:
You're going to need to explain why that's bad.

It comes more conveniently than it comes for other races, and humans can actually achieve this at 1st level.


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Heightened Mage Armor grants a bonus to saves – there's quite an incentive to just cast it and save yourself the cost of buying enhanced light armor.


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What makes this worse in my option is general training, if taken for every ancerstery feat, can double the amout of general feats avaible to the charcter


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
Heightened Mage Armor grants a bonus to saves – there's quite an incentive to just cast it and save yourself the cost of buying enhanced light armor.

Sorcerers and wizards are untrained in unarmored defense. It strongly behooves them to blow a general feat (ideally via the human's General Training) on light armor proficiency. In fact, any non-human sorcerer or wizard is doomed to have a base AC of 8 + Dexterity modifier from 1st through 2nd level.


Colette Brunel wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Heightened Mage Armor grants a bonus to saves – there's quite an incentive to just cast it and save yourself the cost of buying enhanced light armor.
Sorcerers and wizards are untrained in unarmored defense. It strongly behooves them to blow a general feat (ideally via the human's General Training) on light armor proficiency. In fact, any non-human sorcerer or wizard is doomed to have a base AC of 8 + Dexterity modifier from 1st through 2nd level.

Everyone is trained in Unarmored Defense. It's on the Armor section.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Heightened Mage Armor grants a bonus to saves – there's quite an incentive to just cast it and save yourself the cost of buying enhanced light armor.
Sorcerers and wizards are untrained in unarmored defense. It strongly behooves them to blow a general feat (ideally via the human's General Training) on light armor proficiency. In fact, any non-human sorcerer or wizard is doomed to have a base AC of 8 + Dexterity modifier from 1st through 2nd level.
Everyone is trained in Unarmored Defense. It's on the Armor section.

It does not actually give training. Sorcerers and wizards are still untrained in unarmored defense by RAW.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
trokll wrote:

I agree. Given the nature of the system, granting class and general feats makes human/half elfs and half orcs way better then they outta be. I can see a single general feat at once, but being able to take it mutible times is way out of line in my option. Also yes I do beleive dwarfs are in need of a sprucing up to make them on par with the rest of the races.

The feats you can take multiple times, say you can. Look at the half-elf heritage, or some of the multiclass feats, which specify they can be taken multiple times, picking a new cross class feat for instance. So Natural Ambition can only be taken once. So it at most provides a more significant feat for a race that otherwise gets little benefit otherwise.

In PF1 Humans had an extra feet and extra skill points because other races typically had at least one significant racial bonus, and a couple secondary targeted abilities. Here in Second edition it seems like they offered two relatively strong no-brainer ancestry feats for them to take, since they once again are really baseline as far as Ancestry goes.

Granted, some of the others seem to get a cut back a bit making them more making me wonder. However, without those options, humans it becomes questionable why humans have become a dominate power in Golarion. Basically, the implication of having a powerful pair or ancestry feats such as that might explain why low level humans might have a slight advantage in some respects over similar level demi-humans. But after the first Ancestry feat or two they probably level out. (Although that is assuming that in reality the stronger feat wasn't just making up for having no other notable strength)


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Everyone is trained in Unarmored Defense. It's on the Armor section.

This was discussed in another thread elsewhere. No it does not.

Quote:
If you’re not wearing armor, substitute your proficiency in unarmored defense

It does not say you are trained, it says "use your unarmored proficiency." The only class that gets trained or better in unarmored is Monk.


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As per the title, I disagree.


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Seconding the original post.
Every ancestry other than human has to spend their ancestry feats remembering they didn't write "human" on their character sheet.
Humans, who lost absolutely nothing in the transition from PF1e to PF2e, instead go from gaining 1 bonus feat to gaining up to 5?

That's just not right. Not even a little.
As long as humans have the option to take class/general feats in place of their ancestry feats, every other ancestry should have options that compare to class feats.

For example, elves and gnomes getting a cantrip as an ancestry feat? Work with that. They don't just gain a free cantrip, they gain a free Multiclass Dedication feat for anything that would grant them arcane/primal cantrips, ON TOP OF some other small bonus, like training in arcana/nature.
Let humans be the "jack of all trades", and give the other ancestries more powerful, but more narrow, options.


It's fine, lvl 1 class feats a meh generally since they're for lvl 1. General feats are about equal to most ancestry feats imo.
Humans are fine, just add some extra options to the other ancestries.


I'm pretty sure it's intended for Humans to have absolutely busted ancestry feats compared to the other ancestries, because if Humans don't have better ancestry feats there is zero reason to every play a Human over, say, an Elf.

Whether or not this is good design is debatable, though I would lean towards "no" in that department.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The updated Very Sneaky for the Goblin is comperable to these Human feats, both exciting and inspiring. As you only get the one ancestry feat to start off with (currently), that feat should let your ancestry eat lightning and belch thunder. As it is right now, I feel like a player could forget to pick an ancestry feats most of the time and it would have zero impact on their experience (Most Skill feats are in the same boat unfortunately).


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Colette Brunel wrote:
[Sorcerers and wizards are untrained in unarmored defense.

Staff have already corrected that

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Fifth, there are a few pieces of early errata that we need to get up immediately.

  • All PCs are trained in being unarmored.
  • Both Alchemists and Druids should be trained in 3 skills (+ Int Mod) each (instead of 2 and 4 respectively).
  • Alchemists can use Quick Alchemy for any alchemical item in their formula book.
There are a few more coming as well


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Colette Brunel wrote:

Natural Ambition seems like the most powerful ancestry feat in the entire game, with General Training in second place.

Looking at the other human ancestry feats and even other races' ancestry feats (particularly weak ribbons like the gnome's Fey Fellowship), it is clear that Natural Ambition is a great outlier; 1st-level class feats are major, build-defining options that directly improve a character's capacities. An alchemist with Far Lobber and Quick Bomber is a rather efficacious bomber. A bard can have both Lingering Composition for combat and Bardic Lore for Recalling Knowledge. A monk can have a Spell Point pool from Ki Strike, while also swinging around a bo staff with Monastic Weaponry. A ranger can Double Slice while also commanding a mount from Animal Companion to move around and attack. A sorcerer or a wizard can be quite flexible with both Reach Spell and Widen Spell.

General Training is slightly less egregious, yet still far more capable of patching up holes in a build than many other ancestry feats. For example, since skill feats are also general feats, General Training could also grant a character exactly the 1st-level skill feat they need.

I think it would be best for these two feats to be removed from the game entirely and possibly replaced, so that ancestry feats are kept as relatively minor benefits.

I've found that for Ancestries other than human, which I mostly take Natural Ambition and General Training, I hate the lists of Ancestry feats so much that I take Adopted Ancestry to get access to other Ancestries, which so far have been Goblin and Human, which I usually use to get Natural Ambition and General Training. Ancestry feats, for the most part, either don't fit my character concept, just aren't that interesting, or seem useless Unless we got a more appealing set of Ancestry feats, if they got rid of Natural Ambition and General Training, I'd rather replace Ancestry feats altogether with something else, maybe more General, Skill, or Class feats.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'll agree with the buff the rest of the ancestry (RACE!) crowd and leave the two mentioned feats alone. Even those feats can be boring depending on your class.

I was going to take ambition as a barbarian until I looked and realized I didn't want any of their level 1 powers to begin with.


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Those feats seem pretty good IMO, OTOH, the base chassis for human does not seem as good as other races.

Liberty's Edge

Natural Ambition is simply put, too good, IMO it needs a drawback built into it, something like -1 HP Per Level or a -1 Circumstance Penalty to Lore Skills.


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Well, my group has almost finished Lost Star. They are playing a rogue, cleric, fighter and wizard. Amazingly enough, 2 are human, and 2 are half-elves. LOL

Ancestry is definitely something I both love and hate. The idea is great, but the implementation is terrible. For example, a dwarf should start with all his core racial abilities, and his Ancestry feats should be choices that either improve or give you additional racial traits. Having to earn your basic genetic package is just silly.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Right now, PF2 humans are basically the same as PF1 humans (bonus feat at 1st level) while every other ancestry is a shadow of their former selves. I'd concur this is more an issue of the other ancestries being underpowered than humans being OP.


Personally I feel that Natural Ambition and General Training aren't overpowered at all... They're flavorless drivel that barely shores up the Human's lack of useful and flavorful options by letting them have run of the other feat lists. Meanwhile other Ancestries actually get a few useful and flavorful options; like having an Innate Cantrip as an Elven/Gnome Alchemist. They do not make up for the Human's lack of initial benefits (as it was said they would); both they and halflings deserve at least one minor initial benefit comperable to Low-Light Vision. I suggest they both gain an additional language to represent their commonality, and let halflings know the tongues of their current/former masters... But I digress.

Natural Ambition is overrated, most of it's value is tied to the relative scarcity of class feats at 1st level, a point that swiftly fades in value as you gain more and more options Natural Ambition cannot apply to. Even just starting a campaign at 2nd level eliminates the most annoying reason I think a player would 'need' it (to hit-concept at the begining of play)

General Training is admitedly pretty darn good compared to the absolute garbage filling out most of the Ancestry Feat Lists. It is even good enough for me to consider burning a General Feat being Adopted By Humans... Which, sans clarification, grants access to Natural Ambition, General Training, and Skilled too. Just so I can convert my remaining Ancestry Feats into something useful (much like being a Half-It really, but with better initial benefits).


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Cantriped wrote:
Natural Ambition is overrated, most of it's value is tied to the relative scarcity of class feats at 1st level
Cantriped wrote:
General Training is admitedly pretty darn good compared to the absolute garbage filling out most of the Ancestry Feat Lists.

From my perspective, there just are too few GOOD feats all around. I looked at a human alchemist, looked at what I could get with those 'free' human feats and tossed out human and played an elf. The human feats kind of feel like an opportunity to dumpster dive to try to find a diamond in the rough but all you seem to find is a lot of coal. [though I admit, even the coal in general is better than what you find in ancestry]

Now if they eventually come up with enough good feats, they might be worth it but that's outside the playtest.


graystone wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
Natural Ambition is overrated, most of it's value is tied to the relative scarcity of class feats at 1st level
Cantriped wrote:
General Training is admitedly pretty darn good compared to the absolute garbage filling out most of the Ancestry Feat Lists.

From my perspective, there just are too few GOOD feats all around. I looked at a human alchemist, looked at what I could get with those 'free' human feats and tossed out human and played an elf. The human feats kind of feel like an opportunity to dumpster dive to try to find a diamond in the rough but all you seem to find is a lot of coal. [though I admit, even the coal in general is better than what you find in ancestry]

Now if they eventually come up with enough good feats, they might be worth it but that's outside the playtest.

I agree - there are gems like Nimble and Hardy, but too many that don't are weak and also not particularly flavourful. I think this would be fairly easy to fix though.

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