Barbarians - Round 2 is too soon for a lullaby Black Widow!


Classes

1 to 50 of 111 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm totally puzzled by this change to the rage ability. A flat check with a cumulative 25% chance to come out of rage each round after the first? If you want to make rage seem more uncontrollable, than give a flat check of 4 to come out when the player wants. If they come out of the rage, they are fatigued 1. If not, every round you fail to hit under the check the check increases by 4 and the fatigued condition increases by 1. So if in round 4 you role under 16 you're barbarian would be out of rage, but fatigued 4. If you want to keep a limit on rounds of rage (and nothing more out of control than endless rage) then start the checks automatically on the last round of a given rage. Thoughts?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

When I think rage I think of people getting extremely angry, flying off the handle in a berserking deathblossom and then all tuckered out 6 seconds in because they rolled a 3 on a d20.

I genuinely don't understand this change. I don't think it fits within the overall design philosophy of this system thus far and it just confuses me that this is the direction they'd take this. Maybe I've powergamed too much in my life and I'm ignoring the funny little kinda pointless things (Waking Nightmare) they put in that I do think are fun in a way (but only if you want to piss people off in the case of Waking Nightmare).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Or maybe just bump de duration by 1 or 2 and be done with it?

Most fights will be over way before that and when you do get beyond it it will be 5 starting rounds (or maybe only on the sixth if you didn't rage initially due to distance) of pure savagery, then you're fatigued for one round then you rage again. Seems to me to be a good middle ground between a short duration and having a pool of points to keep track of.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

I think it's a fascinating narrative concept, just not a mechanic that works. Randomizing the key feature of a class could easily be a reason to not play that class. Kind of like archers being forced into escalating flat checks to see when bow strings snap, or a fighter's sword becoming useless from notches.

In all honesty, the only problem I had with the PF1 amount of Rage was that there wasn't nearly enough at first level, forcing you to take Extra Rage, but then by 3rd or 4th level you had more than you could ever use. That, and the whole dying when knocked unconscious thing, which has thankfully been addressed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would like it much better if it just was Rage uses = Con modifier, actually, and maybe let the Barbarian pick Str or Con as the class bonus stat. It adds a scaling factor to it while not having this crazy variance, and you have an option at level 1. "Do I want to rage more and have more HP or just hit harder?"


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Turkeycubes wrote:
I'm totally puzzled by this change to the rage ability. A flat check with a cumulative 25% chance to come out of rage each round after the first? If you want to make rage seem more uncontrollable, than give a flat check of 4 to come out when the player wants. If they come out of the rage, they are fatigued 1. If not, every round you fail to hit under the check the check increases by 4 and the fatigued condition increases by 1. So if in round 4 you role under 16 you're barbarian would be out of rage, but fatigued 4. If you want to keep a limit on rounds of rage (and nothing more out of control than endless rage) then start the checks automatically on the last round of a given rage. Thoughts?

The flat checks of 5, 10, 15, and 20 are really 20%, 45%, 70%, and 95% chances of dropping out of rage. That gives the expected total lengths of rages as:

2 rounds: 20%
3 rounds: 36%
4 rounds: 31%
5 rounds: 12%
6 rounds: 1%
7 rounds: possible but unlikely.
The average of the rage lengths is 3.4 rounds.

A Constitution-based check would have harkened back to the tradition of more Con meant longer rages.

I have a few qualms:
1) It is an extra d20 roll every turn.
2) Instead of counting the number of rounds, the player has to count 0, 5, 15, 20, 20, 20, which is more mental arithmetic. I like mathematics, but more arithmetic means more chance of error.
3) Rage can now be ended voluntarilty if not in combat, but what counts as combat? If the party's ranger is shooting arrows at the last fleeing enemy, is the barbarian still in combat? If the barbarian has just killed the only enemy adjacent to her, can she drop out of rage to use up her fatigue and one-turn delay that turn, then rage anew next turn for a sudden charge at a new enemy?

Turkeycubes' system, "If you want to make rage seem more uncontrollable, than give a flat check of 4 to come out when the player wants," sounds more controlled rather than more uncontrollable. It does have the advantage of delaying the d20 rolls and the mental arithmetic to a time when the player is willing to deal with the complications.

So, the player has raged for 2 rounds and wants to drop out. Flat check 4, rolled 6, still raging, but fatigue built up. After wasting a turn looting bodies while still raging, a flat check 8, rolled a 16, still raging. Third turn, still looting, a flat check 12, rolled a 10, stopped raging, fatigued for 3 rounds. The expected number of rounds does not matter, because as a GM, I would probably handwave the whole situation when no enemies are going to show up in the next 10 minutes: "You rage for a few turns, you are fatigued for a few turns, and then back to normal."


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
dmerceless wrote:
I would like it much better if it just was Rage uses = Con modifier, actually, and maybe let the Barbarian pick Str or Con as the class bonus stat. It adds a scaling factor to it while not having this crazy variance, and you have an option at level 1. "Do I want to rage more and have more HP or just hit harder?"

I think on the surface this is an interesting choice from a build design perspective. Haven't really thought about it in detail but it sounds good.


Yes, sorry. I was thinking exclusive vs inclusive.... But I encourage you to think about the implications of raging out of combat. Perhaps you won't stop pulping corpses until you can get it under control (possibly destroying some loot). Or you must make a single non-lethal attack against the nearest person each round you fail to regain composure (like the half-hearted hits in a tantrum....)

On the whole, I'd prefer this rule as part of a feat anyway. Like perhaps a +1 to hit while raging but you can't control coming out of the rage.

Thanks for the comments, thoughts?

The flat checks of 5, 10, 15, and 20 are really 20%, 45%, 70%, and 95% chances of dropping out of rage. That gives the expected total lengths of rages as:
2 rounds: 20%
3 rounds: 36%
4 rounds: 31%
5 rounds: 12%
6 rounds: 1%
7 rounds: possible but unlikely.
The average of the rage lengths is 3.4 rounds.

A Constitution-based check would have harkened back to the tradition of more Con meant longer rages.

I have a few qualms:
1) It is an extra d20 roll every turn.
2) Instead of counting the number of rounds, the player has to count 0, 5, 15, 20, 20, 20, which is more mental arithmetic. I like mathematics, but more arithmetic means more chance of error.
3) Rage can now be ended voluntarilty if not in combat, but what counts as combat? If the party's ranger is shooting arrows at the last fleeing enemy, is the barbarian still in combat? If the barbarian has just killed the only enemy adjacent to her, can she drop out of rage to use up her fatigue and one-turn delay that turn, then rage anew next turn for a sudden charge at a new enemy?

Turkeycubes' system, "If you want to make rage seem more uncontrollable, than give a flat check of 4 to come out when the player wants," sounds more controlled rather than more uncontrollable. It does have the advantage of delaying the d20 rolls...


Kerx wrote:

When I think rage I think of people getting extremely angry, flying off the handle in a berserking deathblossom and then all tuckered out 6 seconds in because they rolled a 3 on a d20.

I genuinely don't understand this change. I don't think it fits within the overall design philosophy of this system thus far and it just confuses me that this is the direction they'd take this. Maybe I've powergamed too much in my life and I'm ignoring the funny little kinda pointless things (Waking Nightmare) they put in that I do think are fun in a way (but only if you want to piss people off in the case of Waking Nightmare).

You know, Waking Nightmare could actually be pretty useful on a debuffed ally or a buffed enemy. Because if the ally already has a conditional penalty to whatever they are attempting or the enemy has a conditional bonus to the same, then there's no or almost no risk of hurting the ally or helping the enemy while you could still help/hurt the ally/enemy half of the time.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

13 people marked this as a favorite.

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

Hello Jason. I would personally go with number 2, but more in the "shorter" than in the "variable" side. IMO there are better ways to give the feeling of uncontrolable rage than making the core feature of a class luck-based in its duration.

Edit: Just to add something. I do like the abilities with the Rage trait, they are a very nice addition, but IMO the Rage itself could be a little more powerful and cool if it were to last just 3 or 4 rounds and then leave Fatigued for 1.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Generally speaking I like 2. I can see three working if the trade off is big enough that its not just "always rage all the time". I'd also like a hybrid -- generally 3, but some "tiring moves" you can use for massive effect that auto end the rage.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

With the way fatigue works in the playtest I'd go for option 1, tbh. Getting fatigued mid-combat made me pass my turn several times instead of attacking and hoping those -1-4 AC wouldn't screw over my already-sluggish Titan Mauler.

Also, I didn't realize until mid-session when playing my barbarian, but the rage bonus to damage stacks with pretty much nothing. WHY?! Pretty much every time someone else from the team cast buffing spells on us I'd just go "meh, yet another damage increase that won't matter to me"...


Kerx wrote:

When I think rage I think of people getting extremely angry, flying off the handle in a berserking deathblossom and then all tuckered out 6 seconds in because they rolled a 3 on a d20.

I genuinely don't understand this change. I don't think it fits within the overall design philosophy of this system thus far and it just confuses me that this is the direction they'd take this. Maybe I've powergamed too much in my life and I'm ignoring the funny little kinda pointless things (Waking Nightmare) they put in that I do think are fun in a way (but only if you want to piss people off in the case of Waking Nightmare).

Conversely, folks were complaining that rage always lasting 3 rounds exactly every time made no sense becaus Rage shouldn't be that precise. This was done as a response to that and the update clearly explained the reasoning.

I don't like this particular change at a glance, though I'll reserve final judgement until I have seen it in action. But it's not that hard to understand the logic. I preferred 3 rage rounds to this, but I think I still prefer this to finite rages per day.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

3. Random length rages that can leave you fatigued early if you happen to roll badly are not a direction I want to see.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

Of the 3 choices, I prefer #1. After having played with a Barbarian in the party, I notice that fights tend to go on the longer side at high levels, and having the rage only last 3 rounds (or 3.38 rounds on average with update 1.6) is too short and leads to the Barbarian being restricted too much by the round of fatigue. Even while raging, the Barb wasn't doing as much as the Fighter, who can constantly perform 2-5 attacks per turn (with the help of Haste and Desperate Finisher to get the 4th and 5th attacks), hit more often and deal just as much, if not more damage.

Personally, I think the bonuses granted by Rage currently are still on the weak side, and does not justify the lower duration.

Outside of the 3 choices, my preferred option for Rage would be like how D&D 4e handled it. A Rage that lasts until the end of the encounter, started by a tremendously powerful attack, which then confers flavourful abilities for the Barbarian. There are also many different kinds of Rages you can go into, further increasing the versatility of the class.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Out of all of those choices I'd prefer 1.

What didn't work with 1st Ed rage? Or especially the unchained version?

One of my PCs has played a barbarian so far and didn't like it. "Didn't feel like rage did anything or was worth it." This was at level 4 while playing fury totem (probably the most boring totem). But still if your main class feature is not fun then something needs changing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I actually kinda liked the old Rage Mechanic. Though if things are going bad and you drop rage on round 4 things are not going to look up from there. Thats kind of a trade I guess. This was my first time playing a Barbarian in any sort of Pathfinder because of the mechanic.

TLDR: I would like a slightly Longer or still 3 round Rage I can do at will with either more Temp HP because with a lower Con you dont get Many (working as intended, but not always doable). The Damage might need a tweak at higher levels but at lower it seemed fine.

DW multiclass Fighter for Double Slice Dragon Totem Goblin Barbarian. Just hit lvl 5 on Monday. I used the stat generation in the book and have a Str 19, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 12 after my lvl 5 boosts. I have 80 Hp with a +11 to hit +1 Longsword for 2d8+4+4(acid) and a +11 Expert Dogslicer for 1d6+4+2(acid). Damage is great. A low Con hurt on the Temp HP for awhile though, and the Treat Wounds, but that was the direction I went with the character. He has a Decent AC using +1 Chainmail. Tac 20 AC 23 (I think I had to recheck a few times). His basic tactics are Rage then Sudden Charge into a tactical position and attack once, and then each round after is Double Slice and then if I have to move I do if not then a 3rd attack (actually fairly boring that way).

OH Actually I can talk about loosing rage with it going bad. Last Monday we were fighting in a Homebrew and a Vampire dropped a Fireball on us and dropped the Rogue. I had just dropped Rage so I sheathed my Dogslicer, got out a potion, and fed it to the rogue. Next round she dropped again so I didnt get to attack and I just fed her another potion. After that she was fine and I got into position, drew my weapon, and attacked once. We won but oh man was it close with everyone down to single digits. If Rage was more Random I coudnt of done that. I could of been fatigued on round 3 instead of round 4. OR I could of not had the fatigue and then I would of been using my OMG I finally rolled above a 5 round to heal her up. In a vacuum I guess things look good on paper. In use not so much sometimes.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

A variant of 1 or 3, probably. With so many totems that grant transformations, 3 rounds on, one round off is awkward and randomness is just worse in that regard.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.

#2 would be interesting as a sort of "finisher mode." If a barbarian does not time it right and finish the enemy right then and there, then the barbarian is due for backlash of some kind.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

I guess 2, as I'm not convinced you could make rage less powerful and still worth doing (it barely seems so as is), and rage definitely doesn't need additional or bigger costs.

Though variable... ugh, no.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

For 1, well, my group thinks Rage isn't good enough as it is, and would prefer to see it better than it is now... but lasting the whole fight at the current Playtest version of it would also be acceptable.

For 2, a short length of time but better than it currently is more matches my group's feedback. Just so long as it isn't random rolls each round. If there's a random factor roll it beforehand. So 1d4 + Con mod rounds would work (or 1d4 + half Con mod, or 1d4 + Fortitude proficiency modifier), and then you know going in how long it's going to last and you can more readily avoid ending up in midair or clinging to a cliff as your rage shuts off. Since this ends up considerably longer than 3 rounds most of the time, I'm okay if you then can't enter rage again for half as long as you spent raging, instead of just 1 round, so long as you don't have that crazy insane fatigue penalty the whole time.

For 3, this would also be acceptable, if the hit was to defense rather than accuracy.

While I'd have to ask my group which of these they'd lean to if it's now an option under consideration, personally I'd go 1 or 2, and would probably pick 2 if forced to answer right now. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

3 I think, I could definately go for rage as a sort of stance like ability that feels like more of a trade-off. ATM it feels like it's only a matter of whether my party's barbarian has the action economy to do rage and hit people and he's said as much on multiple occasions.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Voss wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

I guess 2, as I'm not convinced you could make rage less powerful and still worth doing (it barely seems so as is), and rage definitely doesn't need additional or bigger costs.

Though variable... ugh, no.

Okay, this and other statements of not wanting Rage to have variable duration suddenly got me laughing because I just realized something.

Now from a gameplay perspective I TOTALLY understand wanting Rage to be predictable and reliable for those that do want it so.

But from an in-universe standpoint it just makes Rage INCREDIBLY anime:

Barbarian: I shall now activate the secret technique of my Boiling Blood, which will allow me to strike my foes harder and make use of other techniques I could not otherwise use! However there is a downside, I only have precisely 18 seconds to strike down my foes or my secret technique shall fail, weakening my defenses and making me an easy target for my foes.

...I'm sorry, but this image just got so stuck in my head... XD


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

With the rage finisher/tiring move type approach they could re-use mechanics from the Starfinder solarain -- build up rage over a couple of rounds, then nova with it and end up back at zero. Could even do the two modes one that gains strength and one that gains endurance/temp HP/fast healing


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

Of the choices, #2 would be my perference. It would better distinguish the barbarian from the other martial classes. A rage that lasted through the entire fight would feel more like a stance than a rage.

My wife, who played the human nomad superstition barbarian in In Pale Mountain's Shadow, was firmly in favor of None of the Above. Her barbarian was very much a Raging Athlete. She used rage for climbing, swimming, and healing. Fighting was the weakest use of her rage. She says that she wants a full Strength boost like Pathfinder 1st Edition. (Maybe represent a Strength boost as a condition that is the opposite of enfeebled.)

However, the barbarian has the flavorful Totem mechanic. We could have a slightly different rage for each totem. I like Neal Litherland's article from June 2016, 50 Shades of Rage: Flavoring The Barbarian's Signature Power. That article was purely about the fluff of the barbarian's rage, but the fluff can influence mechanics for even more flavor.

It could also solve some design problems. For example, the Animal Totem gains the chosen animal's unarmed attacks while raging, with rage counting as morph, primal, and transmutation, but then is weaponless once the rage ends. The Animal Totem at first forbade manufactured weapons, but was changed to "Page 55—In the barbarian’s animal totem, replace the Anathema with 'Flagrantly disrespecting any animal of your totem animal’s kind or wielding weapons while Raging is anathema to your totem.'" Yet that still leaves the barbarian having to draw and drop weapons during his fatigued round to continue fighting with anything better than low-damage fists. The imagery is messed up too: the barbarian was too fatigued to continue raging and the first thing that happens is he transforms back to normal. That implies that the transformation was a solid illusion rather than releasing an inner beast. What if the Animal Totem rage kept the transformation during the post-rage fatigue period, but the damage dice shrunk? That could represent the barbarian slowly transforming back if he does not resume the rage. A rage effect enduring past the rage does not fit the usual rules, but Animal Totem could have different rules.

Likewise, a Dragon Totem can grow wings and fly with the Dragon Totem Wings feat. Dragon wings disppearing in mid-flight is a problem and it would be worse with random-duration rage. The fix, "Page 60—In the barbarian’s Dragon Totem Wings feat, at the end, add 'If you are flying when your rage ends, the transformation catches your fall at the last moment, causing you to take no falling damage and land standing up,'" seems like an emergency rescue rather than a natural part of the power. The Dragon Totem would be a good place for a rage of extended duration. Dragons like control.

And I would like a rage that begins rage as a free action, to imply a barbarian who cannot wait for battle. That would fit Fury Totem.

Silver Crusade

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

Between these specific options, I would strongly prefer #2 (variable or shorter time, but more powerful).

I would take this broad option to cover both original playtest rage and update 1.6 rage, so if I'm getting more specific and picking between those two I'd strongly prefer original playtest rage (less bookkeeping).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My opinion is very slanted based on my experience that barbarians in our group are often newer players that think "oh, guy who smashes, that should be simple." Doing a lot of book-keeping seems antithetical to that assumption and the flavor of the class.

Quick rundown would be: Theoretical #2 > #1 > Playtest Rulebook > 1.6 > #3 > Unchained > P1 Core

Quote:
1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.

This would be fine. It'd need some explicit discussion on whether you can use it outside of combat and what happens, but that's not the end of the world.

Quote:
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.

I'm not a fan of the moving DCs and extra die roll, but a situational ending like "if you don't use an attack action this turn" could be fine.

The 3 round limit worked fine in our playtests, with almost every fight ending before round 4 anyway. Which I'm glad for, because tracking the shifting fatigue penalty wasn't very new-player friendly.

I'd also cheerfully take a version that does a lot but only for one round, maybe with a few ways to jump in as a reaction.

Quote:
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense.

This is probably my least favorite, especially if the cost ends up being to accuracy.

Cheers!
Landon


#2 would be my choice. But only in the context of limited fixed duration. I'm not a fan of the variable duration concept as I can envision scenarios where rage ending too soon meaning the death of the barbarian or in a worst case scenario the whole party. The biggest potential victim of this being the dragon totem barbarian who is using his totem wings to fight a flying enemy and then suddenly poof wings gone enjoy your falling damage. With fixed limited bursts yes you lose the "uncontrolled" aspect of the rage but I always felt that embodied fine in the penalty to AC. With the fixed but limited duration we had before this update at least you could plan your turns reasonably. But when your core mechanic is at the whim of the dice that much it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Failing that, I'd go for option 1 as my second choice.

I loved the barbarian as it was released in the book. Both my wife and I enjoyed playing them at different points during the playtest and I looked forward to playing one either in a campaign or in society. But if rage comes down to a variable like the 1.6 update I won't touch them with a ten foot pole.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

4. A rage that's more meaningful and functions as a toggle without a restricted duration.

The worst part about 1e Rage wasn't that it was too interesting or powerful, or that it lasted too long. It was that tracking individual rounds was fiddly and annoying, and you might as well have just removed that aspect and been left with a functionally identical class feature.


Number 2 is definitely my preferred version.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Option 2 would be my choice of the available solutions.

If would personally like to see a progressive rage that got better round over round until ending and leaving the barbarian fatigued. But that might get too bookeepish as well.

I also second the comment about the rage bonus not stacking with enough effects. In our play through we had a bard and a barb whose individual schticks were effectively incompatible.


Outsourced opinion from the barbarian among my players:

Barbarian in Kerx's group wrote:

2 or 3

2 if its not annoying would be fun
I wouldn't want 2 if u couldn't rage for another round 100%
would be cool if the longer you were in it the better it was
how they have it right now its just as powerful but now its RNG which as you know is 100% worse in every way
buffing the dmg is nice but I would like it to buff your actual STR so you get a decent + to hit


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

I like 3 the best and you could have it give negative to AC every round as you gain a buff so it's a risk vs reward thing.

Sovereign Court

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

I like 3 the best, it feels like a rage that kinda tears you apart, though if number 2 was a fort save over a flat save, it would be interesting as well as thematic in pushing your buddy to the limits. It would cause Higher level Barbarians last longer and maybe when you roll a crit success you gain more temp hp or do more damage and if your fail is crit failure you take damage. Kinda like a high risk high reward factor.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.

How much weaker could you possibly make Rage?

A very minor bonus to damage and temp HP in exchange for taking a -1 AC? The bonus HP probably isn't even enough to cover a single hit or crit that you're more likely to take as a result of the AC penalty.

The bonus damage is so small in the face of Monster HP and ACs that it's nearly irrelevant.

When I was playtesting the Barbarian I completely forgot to apply the Fatigue penalties during the off round for one whole session and I STILL felt weaker than the Fighter and Melee focused Cleric in the group.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

After chatting with my group...

What we would propose is the player actually chooses the type of rage they want, separate from their totem. Do they draw on a cold, focused, smoldering anger that can carry them for a long time? Do they burn bright with wrath but not as long? Is it a screaming bloodthirst that clouds their judgment?

So, you have an additional point of customization. Every giant totem barbarian doesn't have to be the same as every other giant totem barbarian.

As for drawbacks, people definitely prefer AC / save loss to accuracy loss. Raw damage and physical power in exchange for recklessness.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

1) and 2). A short/ variable rage that could last a bit/have a higher chance of lasting a bit longer the more levels the Barbarian has.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

I would prefer option 2. I feel a short lived burst suits rage better than a long lasting effect. However a lot of the barbarian abilities are rage based, not having access to then for long periods in combat may be an issue.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

I'm between 2 and 3.

I liked the original version of Rage since it made me felt like I was playing a boss Monster (rampage routine, then breather, then start again) but I like the current version more, or at least the idea of it. I don't see it as random (even if mechanically that's what it literally is now) but as your character pushing themselves more and more, perhaps past the point of breaking, which is what Rage thematically is.

So for 2 maybe have it last equal to CON and then you start making checks before your fatigue (and maybe add your CON to the check)?

For 3? maybe you get rounds equal to CON before you start taking penalties? Increased damage at the cost of AC (Frenzied Berserker *swoon*) would be neat but I don't know about accuracy with the current system, that would probably make them really cool but actually ineffectual.

Basically:

1) Involve Con.
2) have it feel like rage


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

Is the current rage really "powerful"? Compared to the proficiency bonuses fighters *always* have? This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. I suppose you have data on it.

Put me at 3, "A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense" - but this is how I feel the current rage is, especially for the Giant totem.


Starfox wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

Is the current rage really "powerful"? Compared to the proficiency bonuses fighters *always* have? This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. I suppose you have data on it.

Put me at 3, "A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense" - but this is how I feel the current rage is, especially for the Giant totem.

Barbarians now go up to master as well.

So, they are only 1 point behind the fighter, which does make the +damage that much better (since it is also more consistent)

P. S. Giant totem is actually an outlier since the additional -1 is too much for what it offers. Reach is nice, but without combat reflexes and needing to mc for aoo... Well, not that great.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

Number 3 sounds pretty appealing! That, or ways to increase the duration of 2 as you level up (like decreasing the flat check as a class feat)!


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

I would have to go with 3 from those options. Or a varation of 2 - have the 1.6 update not start on the first round, or allow Con bonus to the roll or something.


I like number 2.

Perhaps roll 1d4 at the start of the rage to determine how many rounds it lasts, with some sort of modifier that scales up at certain levels or by investing in a feat.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Fuzzypaws wrote:

After chatting with my group...

What we would propose is the player actually chooses the type of rage they want, separate from their totem. Do they draw on a cold, focused, smoldering anger that can carry them for a long time? Do they burn bright with wrath but not as long? Is it a screaming bloodthirst that clouds their judgment?

So, you have an additional point of customization. Every giant totem barbarian doesn't have to be the same as every other giant totem barbarian.

As for drawbacks, people definitely prefer AC / save loss to accuracy loss. Raw damage and physical power in exchange for recklessness.

My mind dreamed up a lot of totem-based durations for rage, but upon reading Fuzzypaws' post, I separated the duration from the totems and added a new selector called "fury." I check a thesaurus and "fury" is the best word and a fitting counterpart to the bard's muse. The Fury Totem would be renamed to Frenzy Totem. Thus, a barbarian would have two customization selections at character creation, fury and totem. I tried to write general-purpose furies, but Polymorph Fury is useful only for animal, dragon, and giant totems.

[[F]] RAGE
Barbarian, Concentrate, Emotion, Mental
Trigger Your turn begins, or you start to use an action.
Requirements You can’t be fatigued, raging, or wearing heavy armor.
You begin raging. You gain a number of temporary Hit Points equal to your level plus your Constitution modifier and enter a state of rage. While you are raging, you are affected in these ways:

• Gain a +2 conditional bonus to damage rolls with melee weapons and unarmed Strikes. The bonus is halved if your weapon or
unarmed Strike is agile. This bonus increases by 1 at level 3 and every 4 levels thereafter.
• Take a –1 penalty to AC.
• You can’t use actions that have the concentrate trait unless they also have the rage trait. The Seek basic action gains the rage trait while you’re raging.

Your rage ends at the beginning of your next turn after the duration of the rage unless your first action is Maintain Rage. The turn you begin a rage counts as the first round of the duration. Your rage's fury determines the duration. You can’t voluntarily stop raging except at the duration's end.

When your rage ends for any reason, you lose any remaining temporary Hit Points from using the Rage action, you can’t use Rage again for 1 round, and you’re fatigued for 1 round.

[[A]] MAINTAIN RAGE
Barbarian, Concentrate, Rage, Emotion, Mental
Requirements The duration of your rage ran out on your last turn, your rage would end at the beginning of this turn, and this is the first available action.
Make a check as determined by your rage's fury. If you succeed at the check, the rage's duration is extended by 1 more round. The rage's fury may give additional benefits on success or failure.

RAGE'S FURY
You associate your rage with a single style called a fury, chosen at 1st level. The fury controls the duration of the rage and how the rage is maintained through Maintain Rage.

Adrenaline Fury
Anger sustains your power.
Rage Duration: 3 rounds
Maintain Rage: Fortitude check against Will DC. You gain a -5 circumstance penalty on the second and later Maintain Rage checks of a single rage. Upon success you gain 2 more temporary hit points.

Awesome Fury
Rage is glory.
Rage Duration: 2 rounds
Maintain Rage: You maintain rage through an Intimidation check against Will DC. If successful and if you can Demoralize while raging, you may Demoralize with the same roll.

Controlled Fury
Your rage controls you, but you control your rage.
Rage Duration: 1 round
Maintain Rage: Always succeed at maintaining rage, but Maintain Rage can be performed only 4 times per rage.

Polymorph Fury
Your fury uncages your inner beast.
Rage Duration: 3 rounds
Maintain Rage: This fails to maintain rage, but it causes polymorph rage feats, morph rage feats, and the Bestial Rage chosen animal’s unarmed attack to endure during the post-rage fatigue.

Reckless Fury
Danger excites you.
Rage Duration: 3 rounds
Maintain Rage: Fortitude check against AC (including the rage penalty).

Stampede Fury
Hunt with the pack. Run with the herd.
Rage Duration: 2 rounds
Maintain Rage: Nature check against Will DC. If successful and if you can Command an Animal while raging, you may Command an Animal with the same roll.

Tribal Fury
You share the passion of your war band.
Rage Duration: 2 rounds
Maintain Rage: Athletics check against Will DC. The check gains a +1 circumstance bonus if within 10 feet of an ally.

My design thoughts were that Maintain Rage costs an action every turn, so it is a heavy action-economy burden. Nevertheless, rolling as an action is less burdensome on the player's flow of thought than rolling to maintain rage at the end of each of his turns whether he want to or not. To compensate, I reduced the action-economy cost of Rage by making it a free action. This also moves the action-economy cost to a better turn. A barbarian ought to start with a strong offense rather than losing an action to start a rage. Spending time during the first round to self-buff before an attack is for bards and monks, not barbarians.

The fun in the furies is the proficiency used to maintain rage. Fortitude, based on Constitution, is the default out of tradition. Tribal Fury's Athletics check emphasizes Strength. Awesome Fury with an Intimidation check and Stampede Fury with a Nature check are for barbarians that emphasize non-standard barbarian ability scores that still fit the folklore of barbarians. Reckless Fury is for those barbarians who view armor as a sign of weakness. Aside from Reckless Fury, I needed a DC to roll against. DC level+10 was too boring and had "treadmill" written all over it. The Will save DC incorporates level inside it, is easily referenced, and has a delightful irony of the barbarian fighting against his own free will to maintain rage. A barbarian who wants a strong Wisdom and high Will save can take Controlled Fury, Polymorph Fury, Reckless Fury, or Stampede Fury to avoid penalizing himself.


That's way too complicated imo.

A simple choice between 3 furies:
A) one as pre 1.6 with slightly bigger bonuses than current (like +2 damage or something)
B) one with indefinite duration but lower bonuses (half of current perhaps)
C) one with a modified 1.6 (you add your Con on the flat check) with current bonuses.

Is enough imo.

That gives you a short powerful rage (A), a weaker but infinite one (B), and a medium duration (average should be around 4.5+ rounds) , more chaotic, regular rage (C)


Honestly having Rage be a "Concentrate" Ability where it eats one action a round isnt a horrible idea. Would need to tweak the numbers a bit but I think it could work. Maybe have you NOT come out of Fatigue the first time in a round you drop it, However if you do it again you do get Fatigued 1 like normal, just to keep people from Rage Hopping.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hmmm or maybe you "Concentrate"/Focus as 1 Action to not have the penalties from Rage aka tranquil fury.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Quick poll of folks reading this thread...

Which would you prefer...

1. A rage that lasted the whole fight but was not as powerful.
2. A rage that lasted a variable or shorter amount of time but was more powerful.
3. A rage that lasted as long as you wanted it, but was mostly all about dealing more damage and a bigger cost to accuracy or defense

Not scientific... just kinda curious of the pulse of the folks reading this...

Hmmm...

- variant 2. A short rage that can be lengthened round for round at increasing drawbacks (fatigued for 1 round/minute/hour as one poster suggested)

- variant 1 but with powerful actions that end the rage and make you fatigued for a turn.

I tend to longer rages because the current rage bursts are just comical when transformations and flying is involved.

1 to 50 of 111 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Player Rules / Classes / Barbarians - Round 2 is too soon for a lullaby Black Widow! All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.