Robert Stone's page

Once again thanks for the info. I guess I need to take more time studying P2 before trying to convert.

I can see that. I have used it myself in as a Rogue/Warlock to devastating effect.

Is there anything in the Damage description of the Lich that resembles this?

"Damage: A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 lich's HD + lich's Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weaponary, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack."

Particularly the last part that adds the negative energy damage to one natural attack.

And once again thanks for the info.

Very nice. And I like that feat. Even if it ends up not working with this particular case it could be something to look at for other touch attacks. Thank you.

I have the P2 Core Book but not the Bestiary yet. I didn't have enough to get both at Gencon this year. Is Lich in P2?

Charnel Touch is the same as the touch attack that Lich's had in 3.5. And they could add that touch attack damage to a natural attack damage for one attack per round. I'm just wondering if they have something like that for P2.

The only thing that I kind of found strange, but I expect that they did it for simplification, is how if the attack roll missed the regular AC but made the touch AC the touch attack still missed too.

My background is 3.5 but I'm currently converting to P2 so some of my vocabulary and knowledge is out of date. Sorry.

I'm currently working on converting a 3.5 Dread Necromancer to P2 and their Charnel Touch is a touch attack. But if you use something that has a natural attack I can't see why they couldn't have the Charnel Touch damage add to one of their natural attacks.

Ok to start I have no idea exactly where to put this so I posted it here.

And I'm actually working on making a new character for a group playing 3.5 but it made me think about this. And since I'm trying to get them to switch to Pathfinder 2 I thought it would be good to post this here.

Anyway I'm working on making a Catfolk Dread Necromancer and I had the thought of why couldn't it discard the Dread Necromancer Charnel Touch ability through the Catfolk claw attack? But since in 3.5 a touch attack cannot be done during a natural attack it isn't possible. So I thought that maybe a new monster feat could be thought out that would allow touch attacks to be added to natural attacks like claw attacks. I would think that it would require a fairly high base attack bonus to need to be taken, and of course a creature with a natural attack that a claw or tentacle.

What are your thoughts?

I don't know how many remember 1e or even this from 1e but I would love a revamp of the old follower/ henchman rules with estates and upkeep that was simply part of the leveling experience in 1e.

Does Pathfinder have anything like that?

I haven't had that problem but our last DM was kind of a DM versus Players type and caused some bad blood. I want to add this but also show that it will be done fairly. Well that is unless I have to nerf a hit from some lucky NPC to keep from killing the party and ruining the adventure. I do my best to tax the party but not to over power them but sometimes the monsters get lucky.

And if the defender was the monster the DM would only have to roll twice because the DM could add the Reflex and Will to the direction and distance roll.

I can see a layout where each strength table is a page. On the back of each page being the encumbrance tables and a direction table. Of course an extra at the beginning for the first size chart. And then all the DM has to do is know the strength and weight of the monsters and the PCs, which should be written down prior to the session with room for adjustments. Then the player only has to roll 2d20 once, 1d20 for Reflex and 1d20 for Will. The DM can roll 2d6 and whatever distance dice is needed. Then roll half, rounded down, the distance result in d6 for subdual damage.

So 1 roll for the players and 2 rolls for the DM. Then just comparing.

Robert Stone wrote:

I understand and sort of agree, and it's probably just me, but I can't see getting g hit by a large giant's club for 50 points having the same effect as getting hit by a colossal dragons claw. Basically getting hit at 20 MPH but a baseball bat versus a car. Same impact speed. Way different results.

Basically the large opponent can kind of scope you up.

As for the party building to take advantage of it so be it. That would mean they want to take that extra time. And if so I could even work on new feats to all for taking advantage of it or helping to resist it.

Then throw some size modifiers in, maybe +1 square and +2 to DC for each difference in size.

LOL I actually didn't think of that. Good point. I'll keep it as an option if my full idea proves to be too hindering.

And isn't combat now kind of a long process that we have been using for so long it's second nature to many of us?

Roll a die.

Add Strength.

Add magic.

Add base attack.

Add any others.

What's their AC?

Are they flanked?

Are they surprised?

Are they flat footed?

Compare the totals just to see if you hit.

Etc. Etc.

We do all of this almost without thinking for every attack roll. And this would only be on 5-10% of those. On average. And a lot of it is simply looking at a table and then rolling the correct dice. No real math or figuring other then dividing by 2 and rounding down on some of them. That's why I'm kind of thinking it looks more daunting than it really will be.

The part that sucks the most is I had to create tables for each size's strength from 1 to 50, had to do each size because encumbrance for size is a multiplier of the base medium strength. Then I had to create tables for size differences from equal size to five bigger and five smaller with distances that I thought made sense and express those in terms of die rolls. In this I also broke down my light encumbrance from 0-25%, 26-50%, 51-75%, and 76%+ because if at minimum medium encumbrance no throw is possible then it didn't make sense that all light encumbrances would be the same. And lastly a direction table on a d6 but that was easy.

Speaking of I have forgot to re-enforce that if the weight of the defender is above light encumbrance for the attacker a throw isn't possible. And anything past medium encumbrance then a knock down isn't possible either. And that only attacks that add strength can generate this.

I understand and sort of agree, and it's probably just me, but I can't see getting g hit by a large giant's club for 50 points having the same effect as getting hit by a colossal dragons claw. Basically getting hit at 20 MPH but a baseball bat versus a car. Same impact speed. Way different results.

Basically the large opponent can kind of scope you up.

As for the party building to take advantage of it so be it. That would mean they want to take that extra time. And if so I could even work on new feats to all for taking advantage of it or helping to resist it.

My thought process was:

1. I don't want 2 Reflex saves in a row.

2. Reflex really doesn't fit anyway because that would be like grabbing a glass before it hits the floor.

3. Fort doesn't really fit because that is like resisting a cold.

4. Will seemed to fit the best because I thought it was like you simply mentally refusing to let go of your weapon. Or that your mind wasn't jarred by the impact enough to lose your concentration. Which gives me the idea of a synergistic bonus to the Will save for 5 ranks or more in Concentration. Thanks.

You think my thought process is off?

Robert Stone wrote:

As for fumble tables I have and use them. They are from the old Best of Dragon magazine. Granted they are originally 1st edition but I've modified them to work and created new ones for other scenarios.

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I've got that issue in a box downstairs somewhere. I think it also had a "How much does my giant weigh" calculus?

I think it is too. I know it is the gold covered Best Of.

And to be honest I have been using the crit hit tables from that same issue. I'm kind of thinking of replacing them with this. Or just to be a jerks run them both. >:)

Strangely enough I'm beginning to think that the idea sounds more complicated than it will be to implement.

I mean the basic steps would be:

1. The defender, PC or DM, rolls a Reflex save.

2a. If Reflex save succeeds nothing happens.

2b. If Reflex save fails the DM looks on the correct chart, which hopefully they already picked it ahead of time.

3. The DM rolls a 1d6 for direction, a 6 may negate other rolls off the chart.

4. The DM rolls the other dice indicated on the chart.

5. The DM divides that number by 2, rounding down, and rolls that many d6 for subdual damage. Unless they hit a wall before landing then it become regular damage.

6. If no hard surface is struck the defender slides 1/4, 1/2, or the same distance as the throw depending on surface.

7. The defender, PC or DM, rolls a Will save based on the initial and total damage, could be same number if no throw happened.

8a. The defender, PC or DM, rolls above total DC then they don't lose their weapon.

8b. The defender, PC or DM, fails to meet the initial damage DC then they lose their weapon at the point of initial critical hit.

8c. The defender, PC or DM, fails to meet the total damage DC then they lose their weapon at the point of impact from the throw.

9. The DM rolls 1d6 to determine the direction the weapon goes.

10a. The weapon goes half the distance thrown if Will save fails to meet the initial damage.

10b. The weapon goes the same distance as the slide after impact if Will save fails to meet total damage.

So basically it is a lot of things but every one is spelled out step by step and shouldn't take long to do. At least I hope and will find out.

Interesting idea. I'll look into that. I like the idea.

Currently I'm planning on using the damage as the DC for the Reflex save and the base DC for the Will save. If the defender is thrown and it is far enough to add subdual damage then that is added to the DC of the Will save as well. If the defender fails the base Will then the defender loses their weapon on the initial hit. If they make it between the base DC and the total DC of the Will then they lose their weapon on impact from the throw, or if the subdual is enough to knock them out then they automatically loose their grip. Unfortunately the Will save for the weapon loss is probably the most complicated part of the rule.

Granted there are adjustments the the Reflex for stability, multi legs, and 5 ranks or more in Balance. And negatives for being unstable already.

There are adjustments to the throw damage for a successful Tumble, DC total damage. And the slide afterwards. If the Tumble is successful then the subdual damage is reduced by 1d6 and at the end of the slide you are standing.

As for the slide it is half of the distance traveled rounded down on normal surfaces, 1/4 on rough surfaces, and double on slick. No extra damage for the slide even if you hit something that stops the slide unless the object hit can do normal damage by itself, I.E. wall of blades, wall of fire.

Ok guys I really do appreciate all the input.

And I think the consensus from those that answered is the added flavor to the game isn't worth 1 possibly 2 extra rolls by the players on a confirmed critical hit and possibly 4 extra rolls by the DM on a confirmed critical hit.

My group is willing to try it and once we do I'll let you know how badly it slows things down and if it adds to the game.

But by no means do I want to stop chatting about it here if you guys don't want to. All the extra input helps me tweak and polish my idea.

Just an FYI the velocity come from what has been taught to be quick twitch muscles. Mainly the lats. The learning of the proper techniques of using those allows for the rest of the longer acting muscles to remain loose thus not having them resist the movement of the necessary muscles and resulting in lower velocities.

I do martial arts and fully understand that staying loose through a swing results in more power distribution due to the ability to achieve higher velocities in a shorter amount of time. My instructor can put you on your rear with a zero distance punch, also break ribs if he wants to. It isn't a push but a quick burst of power.

And in respect to technique you are absolutely correct but my incorrectly explained idea was that if both the major league baseball player and I used the exact same technique, good or bad, the baseball player would hit the ball farther than I would due to the better muscle mass and development of the muscle groups involved.

I know the technique that my martial arts instructor uses to produce the results above and I probably weigh close to him but he not only has better technique but has trained the proper muscle groups to perform the task. As any fighter would train their's. Thus I can not even come close to matching his results. I may even be able to out lift him but no way can I out punch him.

So strength in the correct muscle groups is very important and I think the concept of strength used in this game is meant to be the training of those groups.

I've just had a little think about why it is so jarring from a verisimilitude perspective and realised that it is about the conservation of momentum and not strength. So relative masses and velocities are all you need to consider. At this point you would need to look at converting kinetic energy to damage for different types of damage. Moving a person by strength is basically pushing them and that is a bull rush in the game.

But strength is a factor in the potential velocity of the mass. A 250 pound weakling will not be able to generate as much velocity with a weapon as a 250 pound athlete. Basically I weigh 220 pounds and there is no way I can hit a baseball anywhere near as far as a 220 pound major league baseball player can. We have the same mass but he has more strength to create more velocity in the same amount of space and time that it takes to swing.

Make a crit table for each size difference.

Otherwise, you'll be adding 6 or 7 rolls per creature per turn, which is a lot and will grind your combats to a halt.

Possibly making combat so undesirable that your PCs will use alternative conflict resolution options.

Like talking. Ugh.

It wouldn't be every creature per turn.

1st attacker rolls a crit range attack has to happen (already rolling to hit).

2nd attackers a confirm crit roll has to happen (already rolling this too).

3rd attacker roll damage (already being done)

4th defender a Reflex save roll happens (if above succeeds and actual damage is dealt).

So 1 extra roll on a crit in some cases.

If Reflex fails then it get more complicated.

As for fumble tables I have and use them. They are from the old Best of Dragon magazine. Granted they are originally 1st edition but I've modified them to work and created new ones for other scenarios.

Sorry not fumbles. Crit hits.

And that would work for same size opponents, maybe one size difference, but I don't think it fits for when the higher level party faces an ancient red dragon or a titan. Kind of wish I had thought of that originally but I think I would have eventually came to the same conclusion about the larger size differences.

Blunt attack would be standard, slashing weapons would get a -5, piercing a -10, stable character (dwarves) get a +4, multi legged creatures get a +4, +2 for 5 ranks in Balance.

The weapon modifications would be for the Reflex save and not the Will save.

Just some other ideas for it.

And I would say that bites would not be able to get this chance either. Nor non-corporeal attacks.

Only strength based attacks are eligible.

The character already missed their attack, punishing them further seems unnecessary...

Missed their attack? This isn't a fumble thing. This is for when the PC or monster rolls a 20, then confirms the crit, and then does damage. The PC or monster getting hit then rolls a Reflex save, currently thinking the DC will be damage done (currently looking at that because I'm not completely comfortable with it), to avoid it.

So basically the attacker has to roll a 20, then confirm it, and then the defender has to fail a Reflex save. So it takes 3 rolls for this to happen. And a 4th roll to lose the weapon.

If the character missed their attack it wouldn't happen anyway.

I figure at best I have average strength so a 10 pound bag of potates, if I hit perfectly (crit), the best I could do is maybe 25 feet. A young child would have to weigh less than 24 pounds for me to even be able to and then would max out at 15 feet. At least those are what I have set in my tables which are probably well over reality but I think are okay for fantasy.

Most of the characters would have strength far beyond that and once again it is a flavor idea to bring in the things you read in the novels and see in the movies.

As for it being more against the players, you have a good point and that is why I have set it to be only on a crit hit. That is why I also wanted to give them a chance to avoid it. But I will think on how to make it happen less often against players.

You definitely have me thinking about things.

Just to put the above examples into a more real world perspective.

If you get shot by a bullet you don't go flying backwards like the movies. You just simple drop or barely move. But if you get hit with the same force by a moving car you will fly a long ways, and probably in many pieces. The bullet simple doesn't have the mass to move you even though it has a ton of force.

Granted being a fantasy setting the PC or monster can get back up taking a hit like either of those where in most cases you wouldn't. That is the novel, movie, superhuman aspect of the fantasy and why I'm just saying that this is to add flavor to the game.

An extreme example of my tables is a colossal attacker with a Str of 25 hits a small defender for a critical hit and the small defender fails the Reflex save. The colossal attacker could throw the small defender, weighing less or equal to 1064 pounds, 1d10+2d20-1 squares, or ×5 feet (10-245 feet). But a medium defender weighing the same would only go 1d4+2d20-1 squares, or ×5 feet (10-165 feet). That would be for epic level fights.

So as much math as could be done first is done. It's just a matter of rolling the saving throws and looking at the right tables.

To the other extreme say a small attacker with Str 48 hits a gargantuan defender weighing less than or equal to 1200 pounds could only throw the defender 1d2-1 squares, or 0-5 feet. The attacker simply doesn't have the mass to do more even though they have the strength.

Interesting thoughts. Thanks.

I already have the exact same direction die in place, except I think I started on the right. One exception being for a 6 from an attacker is 2 sizes larger or more then a 6 indicates a vertical flight, vertial flights are divided by 2 for gravity because you can throw some thing farther at an angle than you can straight up. Just an added idea.

As for distance I have it set in the tables what die, or dice, to roll for the encounter. So a larger attacker can knock an opponent farther away. I thought it made sense.

And this applies to the PC attacking too. So an enlarge spell gains some additional importance as well.

Honestly if something like a giant(large) or bigger hit a PC it would likely die or at least have broken bones. The shield would probably be in bad condition also. This game was not made for realism.

Granted. But that is the fantasy part of the game. My attempt here is to add a story telling flavor to the fantasy that you read about in the novels or see in movies like Lord of the Rings.

Thanks for the feedback.

There's already a way to do this in-game. A simpler homebrew would be to allow for awesome blow to be substituted for normal attacks in a full attack action.

I'd drop the idea of losing your weapon entirely. The game combat system is far too abstract for that.

I'd also drop the idea that the game is in any way trying to be 'realistic'. It's not. It's modelling a high-fantasy novel where the heroes survive impossible odds and do superhuman feats.

The problems I see with the link you mention is that it is a set distance no matter how big and strong the attacker is compared to the defenders weight and size and that it replaces a movement which makes me think it is a modified bull rush.

Granted combat is kind of abstract but we have rules in place for sunder in weapons and shields and many fumble tables include dropping weapons so I don't think losing your grip on a weapon in this is really that far out of the box or that big of a step.

And by far I know the game is not trying to be realistic. This idea is to attempt to add the flavor of those novels, fantasy movies, and superhuman feats of getting hit and flying off a "believable" distance and still getting up and returning to the fight. In reality someone might be able to take some of the hits represented in the game and still fight but after the fight they would debilitated until they heal. Let's face it the PC are supposed to be the equivalent of US Navy SEALs. And from stories like Lone Survivor and Sniper we know that they can take some amazing punishment and still fight but after the fight they are done.

Thanks a ton for the feedback. I really do appreciate being questioned and tested so that I have to think about my position.

You're right on the distance. I just grabbed stuff out of the air for an example. I didn't have the all of my stuff with me.

So an ogre stands 9-10 feet tall and has a Str of 21. Which gives it a light encumbrance of up to 306 pounds. A human paladin say 6 feet tall with plate armour (50 pounds), heavy steel shield (15 pounds), and a long sword (4 pounds) could weight up to 237 pounds and still be in that range. Keep in mind the weight of the PC should already be figured up for their own encumbrance. All that has to be done is for the DM to ask the player what their weight will be in combat before the session starts and note it, because many drop their packs so that they can move better in combat. And note that the encumbrance ranges of the ogre's strength is part of what my tables already has figured.

So as long as the player is 306 pounds or less the ogre can "throw" them on a critical hit, but only up to 15 feet and not the 20 I put in my example. Keep in mind that a critical hit indicates that the defender has been caught off balance and the attacker has hit them solidly.

So imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger when he won Mr. Olympus hitting a 4 foot tall 100 pound person. Do you think he could have thrown them 10 feet if he caught them off balance with a solid hit? It is only 10 feet due to the scaling down of 3:2, 9 foot 21 Str ogre, 6 foot 300 pound person to 6 foot 18 Str Arnold, 4 foot 100 pound person.

I know there was a lot of math above for a game that already has a lot of math but all of the math above has been figured out a head of time I'm my tables. All that need to be done is get the weight of the defender and check the correct line for the attackers strength on the correct size table to know if they qualify.

Still I really do appreciate the feedback. I've put it past my group and they are willing to playtest it to see how much extra time it takes and if it brings enough added flavor for the time expense.

Of course if the weapon is attached some how then those rolls would be negated.

Good point. How about if the DM rolled all but the saves. So players roll 1 maybe 2 extra on a critical and the DM rolls the other 4. Except when it is against the Monterey then the DM rolls all 6.

I've tried to cut the rolls down but I can't get distance and direction down to less. And assuming that you always hang on to, or loss, your weapon doesn't work either. And having a set distance doesn't seem to fit either.

Been trying to add this because I think it makes sense, could create interesting situations, and I think could create some role-playing moments but the logistics just plain suck. I originally thought that it makes no sense that a normal sized human gets smacked by an ancient red dragon and they just stand there. I'm sorry that would be like getting hit by a truck and not being moved an inch.

I do appreciate your input. Maybe I can "playtest" it with my group and see how they react.

I'm worried about the same thing. One good thing is the only real extra math would be dividing one roll result by 2 and rounding to determine the number of d6 to roll for subdual damage and distance of travel of weapon. The rest of the math I have already done and put in tables. And weights should already be figured anyway.

The rolls would be:

Reflex save (No more if success)

Direction of flight (If meets requirements)

Distance of flight (If meet requirements)

Subdual damage (If above rolled and distance far enough))

Will save (If Reflex failed)
Direction of flight of weapon (If Will failed)

So only 6 rolls max.

Maybe only make it part of a critical hit for all sizes? That would reduce its use.

"Imagine that you're the thief of your party. Your group of adventurers comes around a corner and sees an ogre heading your way. Valiantly the paladin of the party rushes up to meet the vile foe. Unluckily for the paladin the ogre gets a solid hit in and sends the paladin flying through the air some 20 feet away. Although the paladin held his trusty long sword for the initial hit he was unable to hold it when he landed and so it skidded off one direction as he slid another.

And as the paladin begins to rise off the ground and look for his sword the large beast lets out a blood raged roar and comes charging at you next."

My home brew rule would allow for this exact thing to happen in a game.

Would make fighting on a cliff edge more dangerous too. :)

The downside of this home brew is it would add 1 extra roll, if they made the Reflex save, or 7 extra rolls for a single hit in combat. As I have it now it would only be on a max damage and/or critical hit for equal sized opponents, or for smaller attackers, and every hit from larger attackers. I've tried to streamline it but I can't seem to get the desired effect with any less rolls.

Now my question is would you as a player be willing to add some more math and the extra rolls to get this kind of thing into your game?