Ricksnest's page

Thanks for the info and clarifications.

There are a number of monsters weak or vulnerable in someway to sunlight. However, in PF2E, I don't see anything that directly says its sunlight. Even spells and items with it in the name only mention "light", "bright light", "dim light", "fire damage" or "good damage". In PF1E there was specific references to daylight and sunlight for spells and items. My question is, in PF2E what qualifies as sunlight? For example, is "bright light" counted as "sunlight" for the purposes of determining if a specter is effected by sunlight powerlessness.

Just a note to add: Is the decision by Paizo to treat magical sunlight differently in 1e vs 2e intentional and if so, why? Was it to nerf magic (especially divine magic), to buff some undead, something else? If it was just an oversight, that would also be useful to know.

There are a number of monsters weak or vulnerable in someway to sunlight. However, in PF2E, I don't see anything that directly says its sunlight. Even spells and items with it in the name only mention "light", "bright light", "dim light", "fire damage" or "good damage". In PF1E there was specific references to daylight and sunlight for spells and items. My question is, in PF2E what qualifies as sunlight? For example, is "bright light" counted as "sunlight" for the purposes of determining if a specter is effected by sunlight powerlessness.

There are a number of monsters weak or vulnerable in someway to sunlight. However, in PF2E, I don't see anything that directly says its sunlight. Even spells and items with it in the name only mention "light", "bright light", "dimlight", "fire damage" or "good damage". In PF1E there was specific references to daylight and sunlight for spells and items. My question is, in PF2E what qualifies as sunlight? For example, is "bright light" counted as "sunlight" for the purposes of determining if a specter is effected by sunlight powerlessness.

I would allow it. Its a creative way to destroy an evil artifact and I would give you a hero point for thinking outside the box

Couldn't you just flavor it as you are working 4 days crafting scrolls as a job for a scroll-shop. Therefore you get paid for 4 days work.

Then you buy the scrolls from the shop at regular price.
Overall you end up with a "discount" of your income on the full price of the scrolls.

Absolutely, you could. I am just suggesting the 4 days should be based into the system the same way it is from day 5 on. That way if a scroll or any item wasn't available at the local shop the crafter still gets compensation for their time. The arbitrary rule that the first 4 days of crafting time gets no discount but from day 5 on the crafters time is compensated makes no sense. Either their time has value or it doesn't, there is nothing magical about day 5. Either way they still have the cost of materials, formulas, and maybe the cost of getting someone to cast a spell. Presumably 1/2 the cost is materials and half labor, since you can reduce the cost by half by working. My proposal is that the credit for labor starts on day 1 and not day 5. Thats all.

Ricksnest wrote:

I don't know why this is confusing?

Because a "discount" is the same thing as "earning that amount of money".

You're trying to gain both the value of the item and the value of 'the discount' during the same time period.

You can't simultaneously be engaged in 'crafting' and 'earning income' unless you use the 'crafting to earn income rules'. And that keeps you from keeping both the gold and the item.

You're conflating two different activities and trying to figure out why you can't do them at the same time. You need to choose to do one or the other: a)make a valuable item (that you can either keep for yourself or give away) or b)earn some gold (that you can either keep for yourself or give away).

Under your plan, every party that had a crafter would get free items: the crafter would get gold (just like everyrone else 'earning income') and the party would get the items (without paying anyone anything).

If you want gold for the time you spent crafting that sword, you'll need to collect from the party member who is wielding it.

No you are completely wrong. A discount is in no way the same as earning money. A discount is a reduction in a COST, earning money is increasing the amount of gold you have. If you buy a humble bundle did you get a discount or did you make a profit? Furthermore, reductions of cost is baked into the system. After 4 days of crafting an item you can work additional days to reduce the cost. So you get the item at a reduced cost. The only thing I am saying is that the first 4 days should not be given for free. They should be compensated with a discount at the same rate that day 5+ is compensated. You are confused about the rules of crafting and should go read them again. Earning income and crafting are two different things and getting a discount on goods you produce for yourself is part of the core rules. Again the only difference between the core rules and what I am proposing is the 1st 4 days of crafting. That's it. I think the same discount scale that applies from day 5 on should apply from day 1. Very simple.

breithauptclan wrote:

That is a conflating of purposes that is just not necessary.

Oh, I see what he's on about. He wants to do both things at once.

If we ignore what happens to the item after it's crafted, the "problem" becomes much clearer.

The crafter wants to craft an item during downtime (and keep it for themselves)
The crafter also wants to earn gold during downtime. (and keep it for themselves).

Essentially, they're trying to use downtime to both acquire an item of value by crafting
And Also, Simultaneously
acquire the gold they'd earn otherwise, if they weren't spending that time creating an item of value.

The "giving it away to other party members" is a smokescreen that just confuses what they're trying to achieve.

Not exactly. The idea is this. Lets say we are using core rules crafting and you are making a batch of lvl 3 scrolls. that 4 scrolls, 120gp and 4 days. What I am saying is that the cost should be 120gp less whatever your daily earned income rate is for 4 days. So you should get a discount for your time of 4 days income. If you are paying the same 120gp you would if you bought them at the shop, your 4 days time is worth nothing. Earning money would be a totally separate thing and is only referenced as a comparison because when you are working for someone you are paid for every day you work. I am not suggesting doing both at the same time (getting items and getting paid income both). I am saying the discount on what you make should be 4 days of your level of income. I don't know why this is confusing?

A success at a level 5 Earn Income task earns 1gp per day, or 2gp on a critical success, for 7 or 14gp over 7 days. If I am crafting a permanent item that is level 6 or less, I have 4 days of prep time, and then do 4gp of work every day after that (6gp on a critical success). That gets a discount of 12 or 18gp for the 3 days of work remaining, unless I rush it. If I rush, then I get a discount of 24 or 36gp (32 was a typo) over those 3 days. I don't even have to make a flat check at the end to determine if the item has a quirk or not, since the DC of the flat check is 1 or lower.

Are you going to be crafting permanent items 3 levels lower (I think you said you were level 9) for your party or would the items you craft for your own use highest you could craft? In comparison, wouldn't you be level 9 on earned income and not 5?

Ricksnest wrote:

There is no 3rd possibility.

Of course there is.

Everyone in the party uses Earn Income to make whatever gold they can during downtime.
Everyone in the party uses the gold they earned to buy the items they want from NPCs.

The crafter does not have to make gifts for the party if they don't want to. There is a completely workable system available for people to acquire goods without anyone in the party being a crafter.

Your 3rd option is for no one to craft for the party. Not much of an option. A vastly superior and easy fix is for the crafter to get his daily rate in discount for the required 4 days of crafting. No one pays more for goods and the crafter is compensated for every day of their work

Ricksnest wrote:

They would pay, but they would pay the going rate for the item. For example if you craft a level 3 scroll, that is worth 30gp and your cost to make it in 4 days is 30gp. Thus you are working 4 days for no profit, you only recover your costs. So there is no advantage for anyone to craft for the party, its actually a time loss for the crafter. I think the crafter should be rewarded for the service to the group but even if they aren't rewarded they should not be penalized for it (ie:lose 4 days with no compensation)

That sounds more like a group dynamics problem than a crafting problem. If the other players aren't willing to pay your character what their time is worth, then it's not a crafting rules problem, it's a group promlem.

If you want to Earn Income, use your crafting skills for that.
If you want to instead, make something, then do that. The choice is yours.

So is your group paying more for items crafted within your group than you would if you bought it in the store? If so, then you can make the crafter whole but everyone else is paying above market for the item. Either way it is a crafting problem because pay for the "4 days" is not accounted for by the crafting system. One or the other is going to be the case. Either the group is overpaying for group crafted items or whoever crafts them isn't compensated for the 4 days work(under core rules). There is no 3rd possibility.

Ricksnest wrote:

They would pay, but they would pay the going rate for the item. For example if you craft a level 3 scroll, that is worth 30gp and your cost to make it in 4 days is 30gp. Thus you are working 4 days for no profit, you only recover your costs. So there is no advantage for anyone to craft for the party, its actually a time loss for the crafter. I think the crafter should be rewarded for the service to the group but even if they aren't rewarded they should not be penalized for it (ie:lose 4 days with no compensation)

That sounds more like a group dynamics problem than a crafting problem. If the other players aren't willing to pay your character what their time is worth, then it's not a crafting rules problem, it's a group promlem.

If you want to Earn Income, use your crafting skills for that.
If you want to instead, make something, then do that. The choice is yours.

So is your group paying more for items crafted within your group than you would if you bought it in the store? If so, then you can make the crafter whole but everyone else is paying above market for the item. Either way it is a crafting problem because pay for the "4 days" is not accounted for by the crafting system. One or the other is going to be the case. Either the group is overpaying for group crafted items or whoever crafts them isn't compensated for the 4 days work(under core rules).

Ricksnest wrote:

I feel sorry for the sucker in any party that gets stuck with crafting duties because you will spent days crafting for your party for free while the rest of your party is earning income downtime. Anyone who doesn't understand this should definitely be the parties crafter.

Why would anyone get stuck with crafting duties? If a character wants another party member to craft something for them, they pay the crafter. No one has to donate their time to the party if they don't want to.

If your character is being bullied into crafting for free, then you need to talk with your GM, and maybe even find a different group that has fewer bullies to play with.

They would pay, but they would pay the going rate for the item. For example if you craft a level 3 scroll, that is worth 30gp and your cost to make it in 4 days is 30gp. Thus you are working 4 days for no profit, you only recover your costs. So there is no advantage for anyone to craft for the party, its actually a time loss for the crafter. I think the crafter should be rewarded for the service to the group but even if they aren't rewarded they should not be penalized for it (ie:lose 4 days with no compensation)

My Witch is a crafter, and is currently level 9 in a level 5 settlement. Why would I spend a week of downtime to make 7 or 14 GP with Earn Income when instead I could Craft something at a discount of 24-32gp?

I don't see how your example is possible. If you can give me a specific example, it would be helpful.

Correct me if I am wrong but if you are spending a week crafting something for yourself or your party, the first 4 days you work for free. The next 3 days you get your earned income rate as a discount. Alternatively, if you were just working for 7 days, you would have 7 days of income at your earned income rate.

breithauptclan wrote:

Oh, I am aware of what you are complaining about. It has been brought up on these forums before. I just don't agree that it is a problem.

Ricksnest wrote:

you could have bought the items in town and got paid for those (otherwise lost) days by the blacksmith.

So do that instead. What's the problem?

Ricksnest wrote:

The game should encourage crafting

Why?

Why should Crafting be the best possible option for earning income during downtime?

Especially - why should crafting an item be a more lucrative option for gaining money during downtime than engaging in something with Earn Income directly?

Because crafting a magic item is more difficult and costly than crafting horseshoes or just about anything else. It doesn't matter if you're a house painter or a craft of magical rings, you make the same amount of coin. It doesn't feel right.

It doesn't have to be the best but right now its the worst. To craft anything useful (magical alchemical etc) you need to use your feats that you could use for other things. You get no benefit from using those feats. You don't get better offense, better defense, exploration utility, or more gold. You gain nothing. You also are spending 4 days crafting and not saving time or money doing it. Its garbage. I feel sorry for the sucker in any party that gets stuck with crafting duties because you will spent days crafting for your party for free while the rest of your party is earning income downtime. Anyone who doesn't understand this should definitely be the parties crafter.

Ricksnest wrote:

Crafting is not a way to get rich. In fact, right now it earns less than any other side job because you are giving some amount of days away for free.

That is mostly correct. And intended.

What is not quite correct is that this only holds for as long as all proficiencies are equal. If you increase your crafting proficiency and not your Lore proficiency then you can craft for more income than you can Earn Income with. With a note I'll get to later.

Ricksnest wrote:

In a correctly balanced system, crafting should be the most profitable of the possible "professions" because it costs you feats and skill increases that either mostly or completely are income generators.

That is an unfounded opinion. I see no reason that Crafting should be a more profitable method of earning party wealth than any Lore Earn Income activity.

Also, there are ways to increase your Earn Income through proficiency increases and skill feats such as Experienced Professional.

-----

And finally, the additional facet of this that I promised to get to later.

You can use Crafting as an Earn Income activity. You don't need to spend 4 days for free in this case.

Earn Income wrote:

Skill Uses

[Crafting] Earn Income by crafting goods for the market.
[Lore] Earn Income by using your knowledge to practice a trade.
[Performance] Earn Income by staging a performance.

So if you just want to earn money along with your friends using your Crafting skill, just use Earn Income the same way that they are.

You only need to use the Craft an Item rules if you are actually wanting to craft an item.

Ok, so I think there is some confusion as to what I see as thew problem, and maybe I didn't do a good job explaining it, so let me try this again. I agree you can use crafting as a "trade" and make money like any other trade BUT that is not the problem. When you craft for yourself or your party, your cost is the same as buying from a store, assuming you are not putting extra time in to reduce cost, but either way your 4 days (core rules) is not compensated. No other skill causes you to work 4 days for free to achieve the result. Do you understand the distinction I am making here? You could work for the local blacksmith for 2 weeks and get 2 weeks pay. That isn't the problem. The problem occurs when you are crafting for yourself or your party. Then you are working for 4 days for free when you could have bought the items in town and got paid for those (otherwise lost) days by the blacksmith. The game should encourage crafting but it discourages it (assuming the same item can be bought). You should at least get a discount for the total days worked not just the extra days worked after you roll your check.

Ricksnest wrote:

Crafting, is still broken in one regard, even with the treasure vault. You are still working for no compensation for "x" number of days (4 in the core rulebook). The standard argument is that 4 days is the cost of access to the item but this argument has a flaw. The formula and material cost is the cost of access to the item. Time should be paid for every day you work on crafting an item at your established earned income rate. So if you are crafting 4 3rd level scrolls and finish them in 4 days, your cost should be 120gp each minus 4 days of your earned income. This is a minor tweak and will not harm game balance but it does allow a crafter to earn income equal to someone working at another job and not give their first 4 days away for free.

Crafting is not a way to get rich. In fact, right now it earns less than any other side job because you are giving some amount of days away for free (4 in the core rulebook and 1-6 under the alt rules). In a correctly balanced system, crafting should be the most profitable of the possible "professions" because it costs you feats and skill increases that either mostly or completely are income generators. As it is, if you are crafting magical items, for example, you have at least one feat used up for magical crafting and you are earning less per day than anyone doing anything else.

Bottom line is that investments in crafting are a losing proposition. Maybe in a campaign with no access to appropriate leveled gear it is a necessary evil, but it is an evil nevertheless.

The 4 days is the cost of making the item from scratch, and not just purchasing it from Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe.

Crafting is also represented as putting your tools of the trade to work at an establishment that is willing to commission you for your services, i.e. downtime earning income. You don't just spend 4 days straight making something and selling it, treating the income as your profit, the rules for selling items from PCs is clear on that.

The point is your 4 days (core rules) are not compensated, that is a problem because the rest of the party is earning income and you are not because you are the one with the crafting skill. If you are producing items for yourself, your party or for sale, your time should be valued the same.

Why is this in the rules forum?

The point that is being missed here by the comments thus far is that your time should be rewarded the same. It is not worth nothing if you are crafting and worth something if you are working a trade. It should be treated equally. As it is, the only value to crafting is if the item is unavailable otherwise. This is bad design. There should be a reward for using feats for crafting or spending you downtime crafting as opposed to some other activity. As it stands there is no reward. In some campaigns there is a punishment for NOT having crafting skill and that is ok, but as long as there is a reward for having it as well. If there is only a punishment for not having the skill, that is a design flaw.

Crafting, is still broken in one regard, even with the treasure vault. You are still working for no compensation for "x" number of days (4 in the core rulebook). The standard argument is that 4 days is the cost of access to the item but this argument has a flaw. The formula and material cost is the cost of access to the item. Time should be paid for every day you work on crafting an item at your established earned income rate. So if you are crafting 4 3rd level scrolls and finish them in 4 days, your cost should be 120gp each minus 4 days of your earned income. This is a minor tweak and will not harm game balance but it does allow a crafter to earn income equal to someone working at another job and not give their first 4 days away for free.

Crafting is not a way to get rich. In fact, right now it earns less than any other side job because you are giving some amount of days away for free (4 in the core rulebook and 1-6 under the alt rules). In a correctly balanced system, crafting should be the most profitable of the possible "professions" because it costs you feats and skill increases that either mostly or completely are income generators. As it is, if you are crafting magical items, for example, you have at least one feat used up for magical crafting and you are earning less per day than anyone doing anything else.

Bottom line is that investments in crafting are a losing proposition. Maybe in a campaign with no access to appropriate leveled gear it is a necessary evil, but it is an evil nevertheless.