PrismaticPandaBear's page

Nah, I wouldn't allow it.

Why? When I allow firearms, it's because Paizo has done a good job of taking a variety of older styles of firearms and fitting them into a fantasy setting. If a player comes along insisting on brushing past all that to play Samuel Colt, then they're probably not a very good fit for the game.

As presented here, it's a very spotlight-hogging request- asking to not just have innovated some improvements (a balanced reskin like weapon innovation on the air repeater), but to have developed a whole new class of weapon better than anything else in the world? It's also not very interesting.

What if the setting was a steampunk setting?

How does d20 Modern handle it?

I'm inclined toward Starfinder's method, taking three actions and emptying the magazine, but in exchange you are able to hit everybody in a large cone with an attack.
If your other weapons didn't have Repeating I'd suggest having the Automatic attacks incur MAP, but with Repeating so much in the mix that would make Automatic rather pointless. Chewing through a magazine and having to reload, as well as using up a whole turn's worth of actions seems reasonable for potentially hitting everybody, though.

Automatic weapons in d20 Modern (without feats/abilities) always fire 10 rounds no matter what you're firing at. The rational being that a normal person without special skills just doesn't have the control required to fire a smaller burst. You target a 10' x 10' area and everything in that area makes a DC 15 reflex save vs. the guns damage. You can choose to fire at a single target, but you still spend 10 bullets and the damage isn't increased, it's just normal.

I would give Automatic weapons different abilities you unlock by getting higher proficiency.

Like Untrained can only fire a burst at an area and it hits only unlucky people (AoE with easy REF save), Trained can fire shot by shot or the burst (with a higher REF save), Expert adds the ability to focus fire the burst on a single target, doing a kind of flurry attack

I hadn't thought of that since no other mechanics in PF2e work that way, BUT, I think it's an intriguing idea and it helps to smooth/spread out the plausible, but powerful, abilities that come along with an automatic weapon so that those capabilities scale against the challenges you're presented with.

Now that I think about it, PF2e could have done that with EVERY class of weapon, allowing more skilled warriors to have access to (probably feats) based on their expertise with a weapon.

Automatic weapons were also a thing back in PF1. It had both the automatic and semi-automatic properties, which makes either an extra attack similar to rapid shot (semi) or an AoE cone (auto).

I think that for any 'normal' attack 1 action = 1 attack, so the semi-auto approach of PF1 is just going to be out if we're using the three action economy. However, it is worth looking what they did for auto. Right now the resources I'm looking at for guidance are:

3.5 DMG
d20 Core
Starfinder
Pathfinder (1e)

Post

Post

I appreciate both of your historical commentaries, but this isn't very helpful for my purposes. I said verisimilitude, and not realism, for a reason. I don't expect, or even want, to simulate modern firearms. This isn't a history thread.

However, I would be interested in your feedback as to whether or not these changes would be too imbalanced, (granting that I already know they're literally/technically overpowered). This is especially given your post suggests you didn't review my document as the weapons I'm proposing are not flintlock weapons with automatic or semiautomatic rates of fire.

I would also welcome feedback on elegant/simple ways to deal with weapons that have an automatic rate of fire - If so I'd suggest reviewing the d20 modern and Starfinder links before proposing any new mechanics that have not been tried elsewhere.

They're powerful, but not so much as to remove all other weapons from their context. Seems good to me. They're a step up from the flintlock firearms we have now. What does your "automatic" trait do exactly?

Dunno yet - that's one of the things I need to figure out. I linked to two resources from other d20 systems that deal with automatic weapons.

Howdy All,

I really love steampunk and i'm thinking about putting together a magic vs. technology sort of game in the future. However, the weapons in Guns & Gears are a little too renaissance/1600s and I'm thinking more like the 1800s. Below is a link demonstrating my tweaks to turn repeating crossbows into repeating firearms.

Conceptual Prototype Stats

1.) The first thing I expect people to say is: These are objectively superior to crossbows/other weapons. Yes - they are. While I value balance I also want a level of feel and verisimilitude that, unfortunately, will make certain weapons just obviously worse than others. I'm ok with this sacrifice as long as that imbalance is not game disruptive.

2.) Because of the ubiquity of guns in a steampunk setting, my assumption is that they're actually the "go to weapon" for just about anyone - along with knives and other close combat weapons. Flavor wise, traditional melee weapons are really only used by experts or in certain specific contexts.

3.) I think most of these tweaks work - more or less reskinning the repeating crossbow - however dealing with automatic weapons is proving more difficult. I've looked at d20 modern's take on auto-fire and burst fire as well as Starfinder's take on fully automatic weapons. So far, I'm more in the d20 modern camp but it still requires the pounding out of details to ensure that the automatic rifle is not game breaking/game disruptive.

Does anyone have any thoughts they'd like to share that you think would be helpful? Thanks!

And to clarify, you wouldn't give it the repeating trait if you decided to use the musket's stats. I think it might make sense to justify the 1 action "reload" as just pulling the bolt handle, but you would keep it as an action to preserve the balance of the weapon compared to things like bows/crossbows.

Ya that's a stretch for me. If pulling the slide bolt on a long arm requires an action, then drawing an arrow from a quiver would require an action. I'm interested in balance, but I'm also interested in verisimilitude. I accept that in a steampunk world that is roughly analogous in terms of physics that guns actually WILL be slightly imbalanced over bows. The issue is whether or not that imbalance is onerous.

So if you wanted say a Mosin-Nagant style rifle, you could use the stats of a musket for it, or a revolver could use the stats of a pepperbox.

I see, I wasn't sure but I understand now. Just applying the repeating trait to existing weapons.

The other half of using that idea, is that all firearms currently printed would be made worse to show that these are the latest and greatest. So an actual musket would take 3+ actions to reload vs the 1 action more modern rifle.

Ah, I don't think "old" firearms will even be available or tremendously relevant. The fact that a weapon can reliable "repeat" is what would demonstrate that it's superior to a musket, not necessarily it's stopping power.

I don't think that there really is any TTRPG where I'd recommend running it straight from the page with no deviation. That's sort of rule zero in every game. That said, for new GMs, the Beginner Box and the Trouble in Otari module are fantastic introductions to GMing as well as being very hand-holding for learners.

I'm gunna have to disagree here. Paizo chooses to produce their APs in such a way that makes play testing them difficult at best. But that is not the only way that it's done.

My personal expectation, that I have brought from playing almost 2 decades of 3.5, is that official modules ought to be playable right out of the box. I think it's reasonable for DMs to familiarize themselves with the module, but I don't think it's reasonable for them to figure out if it's balanced or will play well.

That section described how it might be best to stat them up regardless of mechanical balance with other weapons. Suggestions include:
- Cartridge-fed rifle: something like a non-magical rowan rifle with the repeating trait
- Revolver: something like a dueling pistol with the repeating trait

Whenever I homebrew, which is very rare, my rule of thumb is always to cleave as much as possible to existing design principles/mechanics so that is validaating.

There's also a few less game-changing alternatives, including making the guns currently written up take a more realistic amount of time to reload and instead using their current stats for more advanced weapons. So a revolver would have the stats of a pepperbox, but classical pepperboxes would take a while longer to reload. This approach is probably the most balanced and easiest if you'd rather not create your own system for modern firearms.

Not sure I understand what you mean, can you give me an example?

Finally, it suggests maybe just giving specific magic weapon variants that can't be used outside of those versions. Probably wouldn't help much for your case.

Enhancements are easily re-flavored into the service of technology so that's a live option.

I'd be hesitant to increase the damage dice at all, but slapping capacity on existing firearms shouldn't be too much of an issue if everyone friend and foe alike benefit from it. However the improved action economy could be a little much versus non-firearm users. Not by a lot mind you, but worth keeping in mind.

As for full auto, I might look into how Starfinder handles it. Ie, discharge your whole magazine to attack a cone, or something of the sort.

I think that if I re-skin and re-trait repeating crossbows, I'll be pretty safe. I am aware, however, that this is a tiny bit of power creep vs. bows and makes crossbows completely obsolete. I think it's something that will just take DM adjudicating/handling/tweaking as things unfold.

As for fully automatic weapons, I think I will look back into the past and see if ideas/concepts from d20 modern can be pressed into the service of PF2e. However, looking at what starfinder does is also a good idea especially because that's as close to official PF2e material as you're going to get.

Guns & Gears is great and all... but I'm planning for a steampunk campaign that calls for more modern - at least truly repeating - weapons.

I feel like it will be relatively easy to slightly increase the damage of most firearms and give them all a capacity. One thing I need to investigate further is dealing with fully automatic weapons.

Has any 3PP already gotten to this?
Has anyone here on the forums gotten to this?
Does anyone on the forums besides me even like steampunk or dieselpunk?

I feel like tweaking the repeating crossbows is the way to go/place to start as a foundation.

So, like a rogue that feints and gets sneak attack?

Ya I tend to agree that swashbuckler, to me, has always been either a type of fighter, a type of rogue, a combination of both via multiclassing.

However, I'm very biased, as I believe there should really only be three classes and a ton of archetypes and subclasses. (Fighter, rogue, spell caster).

SuperBidi wrote:

rnphillips wrote:

These would all be cool if Inventor didn't have -3 to hit and -1 ac relative to a fighter.

The Inventor is one of the classes that can compete with a Fighter quite well.

Obviously not in single target damage, as it's the main Fighter asset. But the extra damage from Overdrive compensate partially your low hit rate and you have AoE attacks that the Fighter doesn't have, making the Inventor a better choice if you have to face groups of enemies.

Overdrive costs an action every single turn to get what, 2-3 extra damage on a hit?

I believe you're meant to do that to fish for a critical success on the crafting check - if you do it lasts for 1 minute and then you don't need to spend that action every turn.

I enjoy more of a 50/50 split

Unfortunately, I think your stance is more popular than mine :c

PrismaticPandaBear wrote:

Aaron Shanks wrote:

So, you are all saying there is demand for more Pathfinder? ;)

Yes :'3 but hopefully with basically no lore and just rules/mechanics/options.

Blech. You get 80/20 lore/rules or 20/80. We gotta add some spices!

I mean I'll take 20/80 lore/rules.

So, you are all saying there is demand for more Pathfinder? ;)

Yes :'3 but hopefully with basically no lore and just rules/mechanics/options.

I sure hope so! I miss the "Complete" series a lot!

Since Dex to damage is not only a rogue thing, but a specific kind of rogue thing, that seems fairly unlikely. I'm pretty sure there won't be any kind of big changes to classes.

I bet Paizo devs are as firm on this as they are about caster DCs.

This idea would require some DM buy in and the free archetype variant, but I don't think it's too much to ask :3

How about an inventor that uses a pair (x2) of gauntlets and takes Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication.

Initial: Complex Simplicity
Breakthrough: Manifold Alloy or Aerodynamic Construction
Revolutionary: Impossible Alloy or Momentum Retainer

Offensive Boost: Fire or Electricity

(I just watched the first three episodes of Arcane last night >_>)