Pekkias's page

That being said - prior to the proposed upgrades, the paladin still channeled at -3 levels of a cleric; which i'm okay with. I think that improvement was unnecessary and did not specifically address the issues where the paladin was behind .

I say move the channeling and Lay on hands back to seperate abilities - to allow them both to be used often enough. Simply increasing the pool would allow min/maxers to ignore one of those abilities and have way too many of the other; not to mention how do we regulate "extra channeling" and/or "extra lay on hands" feats.....

Furthermore, after seperating them out - return the channeling to cleric level -3, and improve the spellcasting to be the same (cleric level -3).

This will ultimately give the paladin about the same number of channeling at a bit higher DC - but less overall oomph.

I'm thinking this way too about spells and channeling. Plus increase the channeling back to 3+cha.

Uh yea...

20th Fighter: "I can't be disarmed with this weapon, AND when I make a critical strike I do it better!"

17th Cleric: "I cast Implosion. Then I cast Miracle just for fun, and gate in a Solar cuz I need some company."

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Yeah... sorry. Casters own. 9th level spells are like having a capstone ability 4 levels early.

You have a point there, but I'm comparing Cleric to other casters. If they get a capstone, so should cleric. Right now there is no real thing that wants me to stay pure cleric till 20th. I could easily switch to a PrC that increases divine spell casting ability and has some nice abilities like full BAB.

I think Clerics like every other class should have a capstone ability at 20th level. Clerics don't have one currently in the beta rules (I'm not counting the domain spells as one).

I think the 20th level domain spells could be changed to be domain powers, a little like the ones at 1st or 8th level, but more powerful of course. The Cleric could be made to choose only one power from his domains to avoid an epic cleric who has multiple domain powers. The power could even be God specific (but this has some problems for other settings).

The cleric could of course gain a capstone which is completely separate from his domains, but in my opinion it would be best to come from his domains and/or God.

At 20th level the Wizard gets a school power and the Sorcerer a bloodline power, so why not give a cleric a real power at 20th level?

Some discussion can also be found here.

Couldn t edit my post so I just say that those PA numbers I just wrote in the message before do need some fixing...

Nice Summary Vult!

Some things about those abilities I'd like to comment:

HOLY AVENGER: I think the bonuses to AC, hit and dmg should not be CHA bonus but scale by level, otherwise there is too much CHA thing here.

SMITE: I myself would prefer even higher damage...

LoH: 1d6/2lvls is OK but I think I'd do it a little like cure spells (1d8+1/lvl, at 6th 11th and 16th rises another 1d8).

BONUS FEAT: Maybe first bonus feat at 5th level and five lvls thereafter (like wizard) to avoid first level dipping.

LoH and ChannelE: I think separate abilities would be best, Channel at clr lvl -3 but 3+cha per day. Otherwise multiclassing with cleric and all those stuff...

Bonded Weapon: +1 to make it Unbreakable is Coo.

Divine Antidote (SU): I like this and the cure ability damage from disease too.

Holy Champion (Su): Maximize Smite dmg too.

As for the alternate mechanisms minkscooter asked, I'd like to point to my suggestion about Smite and HA working a little like the beta Bbn Rage here. (at the bottom of page)

Oh yeah, and if something needs to go, I'd vote spontaneus casting and good will saves (although I like them).

But now for the big one: Trapfinding...

I liked your idea straight when I first saw it in another thread some time ago. I'm already using it in my homebrew Pathfinder/3.5 mix campaign. I handle it like this:

Trapfinding: Anyone with enough Search can try to find a trap and anyone with enough Disable Device can disarm one. Rogues get a bonus equal to half their rogue level to search checks to find traps, as well as Disable Device checks. In addition a rogue who merely comes within 10 feet of a rap can make a Search check as if he were actively searching.

About skill usage in general, I took this idea I saw in "Kim D&D"

Skill usage: Skill usages come in two types: active and passive. Active types always use declared rolls ("I climb the tree"). Passive usage is the DC against an opposing active roll (an active Move Silently versus a passive Listen). In this case, a Take 10 is assumed for the passive roll. When two or more people are competing for an outcome, all active parties roll.

That is because they have no other way to scale their damage! The damage on a longsword does not go up to a D10 at 5 and a D12 at 10th. PA, Cleave and great cleave are some of the only ways for fighter types to keep up. Otherwise they just get to stand there and watch the casters drop everything.

Little off topic, but that's why (and after seeing the weapon size increase table in 4E PHB p.220) I decided to use in my Home 3.x campaign a rule where your weapon damage increases by 1 die size (1d8->1d10 and so on) at each +5 BAB. (Monk's regarding their level rather than BAB with Monk Weapons, no change in their unarmed dmg)

Regarding the PA and CE rules I think Robert Brambley's suggestion is the best, although I think improved PA penalty should be -8 there.

I myself use a variant where you can do with Power Attack Feat -2/+3, -4/+6 or -6/+8 or 2Handed: -2/+4, -4/+8 or -6/+12. With CE the bonuses are -2/+2, -4/+4 and -6/+6. But I'm using the combat challenges from Iron Heroes too where you can fight without PA -2/+1, -4/+3 or -6/+6 and without CE -2/+1 or -4/+2 (normal fight defensively).

I use the rules from Iron Heroes. This is how this goes

IF YOU ARE GRAPPLING

Lift Your Opponent: You can attempt to hoist your opponent in the air, leaving him virtually helpless but restricting the actions you can take. You must make a successful grapple check with a –4 penalty. In addition, you must be capable of lifting your opponent’s weight above your head. If you succeed, you now hold your foe in the air above you. You can use this option only if no more than one opponent is part of the grapple.

IF YOU LIFT AN OPPONENT
When you lift an opponent as described above, you hold him above your head (or otherwise in an awkward and exposed position). Anyone who attacks you can freely choose which target to strike, rather than using a random method as normal for attacking into a grapple. You lose your active bonuses to defense as normal. You have the following options when you hold an opponent. None of them requires a grapple check, though each one is the equivalent of a single attack made with a standard attack action or as part of a full attack.

Hold: You keep your opponent hoisted in the air as he flails helplessly. See "If An Opponent Lifts You" for the game effects of being hoisted. Use the standard rules for carrying a weight to see how long you can hold an opponent still.

Slam: You drive your opponent into the ground, slamming him into the dirt with the full weight of your brutal strength. Your foe suffers nonlethal damage equal to 1d6 + double your Strength modifier. In addition, he is prone in a square of your choice within your reach.

Throw: You launch your opponent into the air. You canthrow him into a space or toss him at another foe. In either case, you must make a ranged touch attack against the target space or foe. If you try to throw the opponent you grapple into a specific, unoccupied square, treat the square’s defense as 5. If you miss, use the scatter rules to determine where your opponent lands (see “Throw Splash or Grenadelike Weapon,”. This attack has a maximum range equal your Strength score divided by 5, rounded down, to a minimum of one square. Your target takes damage as if he fell a number of feet equal to the distance you threw him, plus any vertical distance he falls. For example, if you throw a goblin into a well that is 10 feet away from you, it suffers a fall of 10 feet + the well’s depth. (Falling damage equals 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen.) The thrown creature lands prone in the target space. Anyone struck by a thrown creature suffers damage based on the creature’s size, as shown in the table below. A creature with a moderate load or medium armor counts as one size category higher than normal, while one in heavy armor or with a heavy load counts as two sizes larger than normal when determining damage. Anyone struck in this manner is automatically knocked prone if they are the same size or smaller than the thrown creature. The table below shows damage from thrown creatures.

Creature Size Damage
Colossal 5d6
Gargantuan 4d6
Huge 3d6
Large 2d6
Medium 1d8
Small 1d6
Tiny 1d4
Diminutive 1d3
Fine 1d2

IF AN OPPONENT LIFTS YOU
While held aloft, you remain almost helpless. You lose all active bonuses to defense, while anyone attacking the grapple can freely choose to strike you or your opponent. You can try to break free, cast a spell, attack the person holding you, or attack another target. To attempt anything other than breaking free, you must use a full-round action to make an opposed grapple check with a –4 penalty. Success means you can attempt the action as part of your full round action. Breaking free is a normal grapple check with a –4 penalty.

Pekias I like it, but with that smite evil it's one hit and the BBEG (if evil) is toast. Kind of kills the drama a bit, almost anti-climatical. Maybe the damage should be every other level.

You might be right. However when compared to rogue (sneak attack 1d6/2 levels, multiple hits per round), wizard (Fireballs), or per encounter maneuvers from Tome of battle (for example divine surge +8d8 dmg, available at 7th level or the +100 dmg's at 17th level), I think it isn't too much.

Here is another version based on the original beta Barbarian Rage system:

Pool of Divinity (Su): Starting at 1st level, a paladin gains a number of divinity points equal to 4 + her Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, he gains 2 additional divinity points.

Divine Wrath (Su): As a free action, A paladin may focus divine energy from his god to course through his body and become an extension of its might. The paladin gains a +1 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls and AC. These modifiers are Sacred Bonuses and only effective against evil targets. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1, to a maximum of +7 at 19th level. A paladin must spend one divinity point to enter Divine Wrath and one additional point at the start of any round spent in Divine Wrath.

Smite Evil (Su): A paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a single melee attack taken as a standard action or as part of a charge, a Paladin may Smite Evil. When smiting evil, a paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) on her attack roll and deals 1d8 extra damage per level. Smite Evil automatically bypasses any DR the creature might possess. In addition, the target is automatically shaken for 1 round, or 1 minute if its hit dice are lower than the paladin's class level. If the Smite misses, the Paladin doesn't lose it. However if he accidentally Smites a non evil creature, he does. At 20 level Paladin's Smite Evil Damage is automatically maximized as a part of Holy champion. Using Smite Evil successfully consumes 4 points from his Pool of divinity.

You can use both of these powers at the same time. It's effects stack.

I think lay on hands could also be combined into this system, but then the paladin should get more points per level.

What do you think about this one?

Okay, I´ve been trying to develop this Holy Avenger thing a little further. Here's my take about Smite and HA.

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day + one additional time per day for each point of charisma bonus, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a single melee attack taken as a standard action or as part of a charge, a Paladin may Smite Evil. When smiting evil, a paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) on her attack roll and deals 1d8 extra damage per level. Smite Evil automatically bypasses any DR the creature might possess. In addition, the target is automatically shaken for 1 round, or 1 minute if its hit dice are lower than the paladin's class level. If the Smite misses, the Paladin doesn't lose it. However if he accidentally Smites a non evil creature, he does. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day to a maximum of seven times per day + his charisma bonus at 19th level. At 20 level Paladin's Smite Evil Damage is automatically maximized as a part of Holy champion.

Divine Wrath (Su): As a free action, A paladin may focus divine energy from his god to course through his body and become an extension of its might. For 1 round + 1 rd per CHA MOD, the paladin gains a +1 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls and AC. These modifiers are Sacred Bonuses and only effective against evil targets. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1, to a maximum of +7 at 19th level. Using this ability uses one of his daily Smite Evil attempts.

You can use both of these powers at the same time. It's effects stack.

So, what do you think? Does the paladin still get too few Smites? Is the Smite too powerful? Is the hit bonus too low? Is the divine Wrath too weak or it's duration too short? Or is it too strong (for example when compared to barbarian rage).

Something I always wondered (I know it's late in the game for this) is a paladin's vulnerability to energy drain and becoming undead. Considering energy drain is a regular and huge tool of evil you'd think the paladin would have some defense against it, and why would the forces of good and law allow one of their prized paladins become a simple zombie or ghost when they die after all the paladin has done to promote these causes?

I think with these feats from Libris Mortis (and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, check also the PrC Knight of the Raven) the paladin has nothing to fear:

ENDURING LIFE [GENERAL]
You can ignore the effect of negative levels for a short time.
Benefit: Whenever you would gain a negative level, you can ignore the penalties and other ill effects associated with that negative level for a number of minutes equal to your Constitution bonus (if any). For example, if Tordek (Con 15) is struck by a wight, he gains one negative level. However, he can ignore the –1 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks associated with that negative level for 2 minutes, since his Constitution bonus is +2. (If Tordek were a spellcaster, he would also avoid losing a spell slot for 2 minutes.)
You also gain a +4 bonus on Fortitude saves to remove negative
levels.

LASTING LIFE [GENERAL]
You can shed negative levels with an act of will.
Prerequisites: Endurance, Enduring Life.
Benefit: Once per round as a standard action, you can attempt to remove a negative level from yourself by attempting a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker’s HD + attacker’s Cha modifi er). If the saving throw succeeds, the negative level goes away. You make a separate saving throw for each negative level you have gained. If the save fails, you retain the negative level, but you can try again next round to remove it.

Pekkias wrote:

While I was searching this I also came to a wild Idea about Smite Evil. Basically works a little like Mountain hammer or Divine Surge:

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a single melee attack taken as a standard action or as part of a charge, a Paladin may Smite Evil. When smiting evil, a paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) on her attack roll and deals 1d8 extra damage per level . Smite Evil automatically bypasses any DR the creature might possess. If you miss with a Smite, you don't lose it. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level. At 20 level Paladin's Smite Evil Damage is automatically maximized as a part of Holy champion.

Dude, that would be one heck of a whammy, but considering how much people fight us saying that 1d6/2 levels and bypassing DR is too strong *rolls eyes*, I don't think 1d8/level has a snowballs chance in heck of happening.

Yeah it would. And I hope there was a chance it could happen...

It would be very strong, but not overpowered because
1. As a standard action it's just one attack in a round and only a few times per day.
2. As Extra dice it would not be multiplied on a lance/spirited charge or with a crit.

As a Comparison, some of Tome of Battle maneuvers, which basically can be done every other round unlimited times per day if you are a Warblade:
1.Mountain Hammers +2d6 (3rd char level), +6d6 (9th char level), +12d6 damage (13th char level) and they all overcome DR and hardness;
2.Divine Surge: +8d8 damage (7th char level)
3.The 9th level maneuvers (17 char level) that do +100 dmg or kill

or Charging Smite variant from PHBII which deals smite + 2xsmite dmg(total 3x smite dmg) on a charge and if it misses, smite is not used. With a Lance and spirited charge at 10th level it would be 3x(1d8[Lance]+30[smite])=3d8+90 (Another, weaker interpretation would be 3d8[lance]+30[smite]+20[charging smite]). Of course I would not allow charging smite when using my version.

or (I almost forgot): Fireball 1d6/level, multiple targets.

I haven't calculated how much damage the upgraded PF paladin would do on average in a round considering the chance to hit. But if both attacks hit, a paladin armed with a plain longsword and 18 str, 2 attacks at 10th level, would do +22 from smites or ~35 if enemy is evil outsider and 2d8+8 (=39/52 dmg).
With smite 1d8/level it would only be one attack with ~45 smite dmg +1d8+4 for an average total of 53,5 dmg. Of course chance to hit with best attack is better than with others.

Well, to tone it down a little Smite could also be +1d6/level and bypass DR or 1d8/level and not. (I would still stick in my 1d8 and bypass DR).

I hope I didn't post too long and confuse all to get my point.

In any case I think Smite Evil should be a single attack that does massive amounts of damage against evil.

I hope I didn't wake up too late...

Holy Avenger + Smite - See my post above
Lay on Hands + Channel positive energy - Separate abilities would be best IMO. Lay hands 1d6/2 levels is OK
Mettle - Would be OK at 11th level replacing aura of justice
Caster level of paladin level minus 3 - I support this, But the Ranger should then also get this.
Spontaneous casting from whole list - I think casting is okay like it is now (and with Battle Blessings from Complete Champion)
Add bonded shield - Check.

I also think that channel positive energy at cleric level -3 was OK. Paladin doesn't need to be as good as a Cleric in it.

Oh yeah. And maybe an always on magic Circle Against evil (at 20 level?) would be nice.

From Tome of Battle:
Mettle (Ex): You can resist magical attacks with greater effectiveness than other warriors. By drawing on your boundless energy and dedication to your cause, you can shrug off effects that would hinder even the toughest warrior. If you succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), you instead negate the effect. You do not gain the benefit of mettle when you are unconscious or sleeping.

While I was searching this I also came to a wild Idea about Smite Evil. Basically works a little like Mountain hammer or Divine Surge:

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a single melee attack taken as a standard action or as part of a charge, a Paladin may Smite Evil. When smiting evil, a paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) on her attack roll and deals 1d8 extra damage per level . Smite Evil automatically bypasses any DR the creature might possess. If you miss with a Smite, you don't lose it. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level. At 20 level Paladin's Smite Evil Damage is automatically maximized as a part of Holy champion.

EDIT: In Complete Divine Mettle is a Supernatural ability (which it IMO in case of a Paladin should be)

They could've just as easily fixed it by giving more skill points out imho

I agree with Coridan in this.

For Example 2 extra skill points per level would double Fighters skill points to 4 but would not be so big addition to rogue, who already gets 8. I think it would be in a good balance.

I´ve also thought giving some racial skill points at first level reflecting the skills the characters must have learned when growing up. For example elf 8 (1st level elves are pretty old you know.), dwarf 6, halfling/half-elf 4, human gets the standard 4, half orc 2. It could get too complicated though...