Nighttrain's page

Me guessing-->So the GM said you will need A, B, C, and D. Paul says I will use ____ to do D. The GM did not want ___ to do D because he did not felt like it would fit. Paul trying to do use _____ to do D is the source of the problem.

Is that correct?

edit:I am reading Dave the GM's post so this post may not have any merit.

Pretty much Wraith, pretty much.

Dude.

I can't believe what I've been reading. This group reads like a budget committee planning session.

If it works for you all, fine, but holy cow, it must be dry as Hades.

I'd have found a new group so fast your head would spin. Just make characters and play for Desna's sake!

And if I stayed, I'd find a way to optimize a Bard into a tank just to spite the group, then consider it an honor to be asked to leave.

In short, you cannot calculate, spreadsheet, ratify or shoehorn your way to fun and enjoyment, which by the way, is the purpose of playing.

I wonder if this is how the Borg would play an RPG?

That typically is why any specific rules are discussed at the beginning of the game. In the end it is the players choice to play or not play.The game will happen with or without a regular player. There are homebrews, house rules, custom feats, complete SRD's full of rules and mods and mechanics that don't necessarily comply with the given book.

Take a look at it in another light;
4 people are going to participate in a race. All racers are given specific instructions on how to build their car. Three of the four racers read the rules and accept them at face value and build accordingly. The fourth racer reads the rules, agrees then decides to go against them. What would happen?

This is the same thing. At the beginning everything was explained and questions were answered. At that point the individual can either sign on or say no. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and making them play. If they choose to play though, there are guidelines that were set out from the start and accepted by all of the players, now they are being ignored, argued, and thrust into everyone else' face. That is not fair for the other 3 people that read, asked, listened and agreed. Why should one person fight so vehemently to go against the rules he agreed to in the first place? If you were to do this in any other environment you would most likely be booted, fired, arrested etc (not you specifically, you as a generalization). Why is it so important for one person to go against what they agreed to? What is gained? Why agree in the first place?

<.< >.> Monk as the DPS class? Ehhh. I'm not going to turn this into a monk thread as I generally stay away from those.

Dave, I understand that the Shaman was open to be changed.

Now, for some examples (Any other Vets of PF want to fix, change or add on, please do so)

Ranged DPS: Archer Fighter (Ranger, Paladin, yada yada). Specialist Wizard. Blasting Sorcerer. I'm sure others could give examples.

Melee DPS: Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Inquisitor (Not sure if this was available) Magus (Same as Inquis) Barbarian. Druid.

Healer/Buffer: Bard. Druid. Cleric. Wizard (??) Oracle.

Tank: Fighter Paladin. Barbarian. Summoner. Summoning Wizard. Cleric. Druid.

I'll point out that not all casters fall into the Ranged DPS role. Neither do all martial.

I applaud you on coming to a solution, but was this talked about at the table before they left?

In any case, sounds like a bit of miscommunication on both sides and maybe misunderstanding.

EDIT: CURSES NINJA'D again!! *shakes fist at Nighttrain*

The DM can say no. He can also be wrong. You might be THE knowledge of the game, and yet I still say you are wrong.

Whether it is good or not does mean if it will work or not. A Summoner can, and does, work as a Tank. It can clog lanes of fighting, and can distract enemies, and it can take hits. Even without the Eidolon, the Summoner can still summon.

If the DPS guys are doing what they are supposed to be, the enemy shouldn't survive pass three or four rounds, most of the time. The Healer/Buffer can Heal/Buff anything summoned by the Summoner.

DPS is meant to kill the enemey fast. Tanks are meant to hold off said enemies until they die. Healers/Buffers are to heal up wounds on the other roles and buff them when it has a chance.

High AC is not nearly that great of a feature. Enemies should ignore the guy who can't hurt them and they can't hit. If the Tank has no way to harass the enemy (Prevent them from passing, Hurt them enough question passing him, etc)

Rip I had to read this very carefully so I don't do or say something that could be found umm "off color". I will say this, almost any class can find a way to absorb damage and allow others to kill a creature or creatures. I will also say that when the DM places specific guidelines and explains that it is for a "reason" while not willing to actually give up the details for fear of ruining the game is acceptable. I am not (and there is no inflection here) the knowledge of the game although I do own all of the books and have read many of them. Reading, constructing, finding combinations that work well together take time and patience. I have the patience but not the time to go over all of the rules to figure out details.

I follow what is instructed by the GM unless it's entirely silly, which in this case it appears to be more critical to have a tin can up from then a Barney. I know the summoner can tank, druid, ranger, fighter, pally, cleric, summoner wizard etc. The DM has obviously considered what is planned and realizes this particular style will not work. I will say that when the rules were explained this was emphasized and then ignored or did not completely register. When it was further pushed and shot down again that should be the clue to figure out a different path.

No one here is saying the summoner can't tank, I personally don't care, if asked to build a cork I will build a pally cork or a cleric cork, but when the idea is brought up and shot down by the GM it typically is for a reason. To then beat it into the ground after being told it will not work ( for whatever reason the GM has) is ludicrous. To have the rules explained then build something that goes against the rules then complain because it is still not being allowed is just juvenile. I have three classes made now if the home brew does not work or seems unbalanced but all fit within the guidelines specified at the beginning.

If the monk is the main source of melee and it wasn't going to work the GM would have said so and the player would have build something else. If the healer needed some specific feats or spells to help the party he would have picked them, if the cork needed to be a metal cork it goes on a random forum and 6 pages come out of it.

Pretty simple for me honestly. Without giving away the game there are certain limitations places within the game and players may or may not get an explanation until later in the game or it may just come to realization for the player once they see how the game is going.

Another player is reading this thread, and asks a line of questions to Nighttrain:

Okay, we get that you have a big problem with the summoner class as a Tank. But, what is the specific problem that you have with it? Can you give examples?

You keep saying, "It cannot work", "it does not work", "it is not a tank"

Why is this an unacceptable thing?

We have a 100+ posts saying the opposite, in this thread alone.

What is wrong with this build? It is not your sterotypical tank that people think of. But, it does not stop it from doing its job.

How does it not fulfill the roll, that we are not seeing?

/other player quote

First: I did not say it cannot work. I said the GM said it cannot work. I don't care one way or another other than the fact that this is not what you said you would play, the GM was counting on you playing a melee class not a class with a pet (regardless how awesome that pet is) and the mechanics as I understand from the initial meeting requires a specific type of tank and that was explained at the beginning. Either way you don't have to worry about it since another player has stepped up to fulfill the role. This is not a by-the-book pathfinder game and you know this. There are many things that have been modified from the core rulebook and this was also explained.

Shaman?

sounds like an attempt at a spontaneous druid to me.

Not really no. It was specifically designed as a support class. The mechanics are nowhere near Druid or anything else in books (so far).

... I don't even understand why the advanced races guide is allowed if you can take no racial-based mechanics, or even any archetype at all for the matter. What's left to use in it ?

Quote:

7) The class of Summoner was never disallowed. It clearly did not fit what was promised by the player. When someone says they do not want to play a caster and do not want to play ranged then build a ranged caster with a pet, something is clearly wrong. Someone had either gotten their lines mixed up when they chose their role, or decided to play whatever they wanted instead of what they chose, regardless of what everyone else is expecting.

Yet it's been proven that this character is -exactly- what you expected from your party's tank. It's one of the few classes able to "aggro" in a game that does not feature this kind of gameplay (except for some bad feats and some spells), since the only way to "attract attention and attacks" in this game is to be perceived as a threat. To do this, you must either be a caster (and suck the inability to survive in melee), or deal enough damage, something usually not compatible with having the means to reach high AC since you will wield no shield.

I honestly think you should just stick to core-only rules until you have a good enough grasp of the system and you better understand the differences between a MMO and a paper RPG - notably, that there is no need to stick with party roles. I played a 1-20th level campaign lasting two years with no real spellcaster, we just had an alchemist NPC hanging around to provide some emergency healing and still had an awesome time.

I can see where you came up with the idea that 'm more inclined to MMO's rather than RPG's. I played a MMO for about 3 years and RPG's for over 30 years. The only reason I even mentioned the Shaman was because I wanted to see if it could be done. I am literally THE source for information in this group whether it's 2nd Ed, 3.0, 3.5 or Pathfinder. I literally have all of the books and have read most of them.

The kid made a good tank, just like he promised. Maybe you guys just didn't know a summoner could tank so well because he did more research then you. Unless there's something you haven't told us, he did nothing wrong that I can see.

Your really long post didn't supply one single clue to help me understand what you or the DM got upset about.
He did mention a few times that he tends to get passive aggressive, so maybe that just annoyed you? Who knows, I wasn't there.

You could always try using his rules lawyering to help you guys out while you learn the game. Look at it as a resource instead of a challenge.

The question isn't whether he made a good tank or not, the question is will it work and the DM said no. No offense meant, when a DM says it wont work that pretty much leads me to believe it wont work.

He simply is beating a dead horse publicly now instead of privately and the summoner still isn't going to work.

Wow, so after reading 5 pages of posts and seeing everything going back and forth I felt I needed to say something… well several things.

I am the person mentioned as the one with the custom class and the one who decided to drop and the one who “suggested” the summoner. I did not suggest the summoner at all. I never even knew what it could do. I have no reason for suggesting a caster class to someone who does not like caster classes. This will all be explained below in a huge freakin post.

1) here were the rules for the game that is the subject of all this conversation:

TORAG’S TRIAL

Books Allowed:
Pathfinder Core Rulebook
Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide
Pathfinder Ultimate Equipment Guide
Pathfinder Advanced Races Guide
Pathfinder Ultimate Combat

Hero Points:
The Hero Point System is a system that will allow the players more options when they take on Roleplaying and/or Encounter Situations. A list of example uses for Hero Points is as follows, but is not limited as such due to the Petition Option.
Immediately take your turn regardless of where your original turn is.
Gain a +8 to a D20 Roll prior to rolling.
Gain a +4 to a D20 Roll after rolling.
Take an extra Standard or Move Action on your turn.
Asking the GM for a Hint on a puzzle or combat.
Regain a spent Spell or Ability.

Petition Option: Ask the GM if you could spend a Hero Point to…..

Hero Points can be attained in many ways, but mostly GM prescribed. The most simple way to gain a Hero Point is by gaining a character level. The maximum number of Hero Points a player may have at one time is 3, unless a Hero Point Feat has been taken.

Hero Point Feats
Blood of Heroes: Prereg- Heroes Fortune
Gain 2 Hero Points when you achieve a new character level.

Heroes Fortune:
Maximum stored Hero Points allowed is 5 at one time.

Luck of Heroes: Prereg- Heroes Fortune
Roll a D20 when you spend a Hero Point. On a 15+ it isn’t spent.

Not Allowed:
The following information is not allowed to be used by players:

Players cannot create their own race or class.
If a race has a +X CR rating, it is not usable by players.
Traits are not allowed for player use.
Archetypes are not allowed for player use.
Class and Race Variants are not allowed for player use.
Racial Feats, Equipment, Spells and the like from Advanced Races Guide are not allowed
for player use.
Character Creation

Players will discuss as a whole which roles they are going to fill as individuals. This discussion goes as far as figuring out party provisions and the like to plan for the upcoming Trials.
Each player will roll 4D6, of which 1 of them will be provided by the GM, and drop the lowest. Rules for the GM added Die is as follows:
If a 1 comes up, it is added to the total instead of dropped.
If a 6 comes up, the player may re-roll up to 3 of the other Dice.
Each player rolls a single set of 6, but may pay 1,000 gold for up to 3 additional rolls. (Unless a deal can be struck, as with the current 4 players.)

All players must provide a write up and have it cleared before the first actual gaming session. This write up is to include Book and Page References for Race, Class, Spells, Feats, Abilities and Equipment. If using one of the GM provided race creations, then no reference is required for it. Also a 3-7 paragraph background story is required about how you came to be with the party. (Minimum 5 levels have been spent with the party as a whole.)

Starting Gold will be handled as follows:

Each player is worth 60,000 gold and that is pooled into a Party Fund. No player may spend more then 60,000 gold from the Party Fund. (No more then 40,000 gold on a single Magic Item.) Current Fund limits are as stated, but players can ask each other to borrow funds.

GM Created Races Allowed for Player Use

Mishima (Half-Construct) Google Rinzler for Image
Medium Size/ Speed 30/ Low Light Vision
+2 Save vs Disease, Mind Affects, Poison, Exhaustion and Fatigue.
Cannot be raised or resurrected.
Doesn’t need to Eat, Sleep or Breath.
+2 Will Saves
Elemental Vulnerability: Fire
Languages: Common and Mishima
Bonus Languages: Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Goblin and Orc.
Adaptation: Choose an Adaptation at level one.

Adaptation, Power Adaptation, Durability Adaptation, Finesse
+4 Str -2 Dex -2 Cha +4 Con -2 Str -2 Cha +4 Dex -2 Con -2 Cha
Slam 1D8+Str Mod x2 +1 Natural Armor at levels Improved Initiative as
Overhead Slam 1, 6, 11 and 16, a Bonus Feat.
1D8+Str Mod 19/20 x2 Stun

Eiondolin (Plant) Google Poison Ivy for Image
Medium Size/ Speed 20/ Low Light Vision
Immune to Mind Affect, Paralysis, Polymorph, Sleep and Stun.
Doesn’t need to sleep.
Languages: Common and Eiondolin.
Bonus Languages: Any language that is not special or secret. (Ask First.)
Season: Choose a Season at level one.

Winter Spring
+4 Int -2 Str -2 Cha +4 Wis -2 Str -2 Cha
Select 2 Knowledge Skills as Racial Skills. Heal and Perception as Race Skills.
+2 AC when in Cave/Underground. +2 AC when in Forest.
+1 CL when casting Cold Spells. Fire, Cold, Elec, Acid Resist 5.
Fire Vulnerability.

Summer Autumn
+4 Cha -2 Con -2 Int +4 Cha -2 Con -2 Wis
Choose 2 of the following Skills as Racial Skills: (Autumn and Summer Lists separate)
Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Perform Diplomacy, Intimidate, Use Magic Device
+1 CL when casting Fire Spells. +1 CL when casting Healing Spells.
Cold Vulnerability.

Side Note: Alignments were never discussed. I trust that you all know how to handle it.

2) Everyone sat at a table and discussed the roles they would fill within the party.

Player A: Monk
Player B: Oracle
Paul the dork: Specifically stated he did not want to play a ranged character nor a caster. He also stated he wanted to play melee class and a tank.
Nighttrain: Playing a custom class for the first time with a backup character made in case the custom class does not work out (too overpowered, broken abilities etc.)This was cleared with the DM at the time we were deciding on which role we would be fulfilling. The DM also had a custom class he offered to the party as well as 2 custom races.

3) ALL of the rules and expectations were given out BEFORE character creation had started. Everyone talked about the role they were playing and what the other players expected out of each other. There were no exceptions. Everyone was at the same table and everyone was communicating on their class, potential builds, limitations, gear etc., except Paul the dork.

4) The role of “tank” was clearly explained at the same time. What the expectations were for both the player and the class. Please understand, none of this should have been a surprise to anyone about the role they were to fulfill since the players selected their roles.

5) Once I heard about the “Tank” I was frustrated and decided the game was no longer worth my time if no one else was going to take their role seriously (as seriously as you can in a game of imagination). I want to have fun. I want to chuck dice. I want to make smartass comments when someone does something silly, even at me if I do something silly. I want to play a game and at least be somewhat successful at the same time. So I decided it would be best for me to leave the game since I would not be comfortable with the given situation. Since then, Dave the DM had to go and find another person to fulfill the role of the front-liner.

6) Regardless of the campaign, good, evil, slapstick, RP, it doesn’t matter. If a player says they are going to play a role, I expect them to go through with it. The limitation on the books is a good thing since this is only the second Pathfinder game the party as a whole has been involved with and the first Dave the DM has ran. No one knows the rules well enough to handle more that the core races and classes anyway so to have a few extra books is a boon to the party.

7) The class of Summoner was never disallowed. It clearly did not fit what was promised by the player. When someone says they do not want to play a caster and do not want to play ranged then build a ranged caster with a pet, something is clearly wrong. Someone had either gotten their lines mixed up when they chose their role, or decided to play whatever they wanted instead of what they chose, regardless of what everyone else is expecting.

8) A note on the custom class. I have been working on a class based on the WoW Shaman for almost 6 months with the DMs help. With numerous revisions, created abilities and one on one playtesting, I asked the DM ahead of time if I could try the class out in a game. The DM looked over the class and said it would be acceptable if I offered it to the party also. The DM and I also have an agreement that if for any reason the character seems to not fit in it would be replaced with a standard class (logical in my opinion). So the custom class is in and a backup class has been made. Both classes fit the role I chose before character creation.

Now everyone is completely up to speed on everything (why I don’t know) :P
Oh by the way, I am nighttrain because that is my moniker for every forum I belong to. If I change it to something else I will never be able to get back in. :D