Muzir's page

RAW could go either way depending on how you read it.

Perhaps I am being dense but I don't see how RAW could be read as anything but allowing Cleave to work against images if you don't hit the Mage on the first attack. RAI is up for debate.

I am quoting both cleave and mirror image here in order for someone to bold where RAW could prevent it from working.

Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

Mirror Image
School illusion (figment); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.

When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.

An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).

I know that we have hit an impasse of agree to disagree. The official input thus far has been that you can't, and you can argue how official it is, but I've got my answer! :)

If I officially tell you that I am a good DM would you go with my answer? :)

(because that is about as good as an answer from beta)

You're making a mistake of disagreeing with both the developer and the creative director?

The creative directors post was only how he would rule in a home campaign and the developers post was in beta and promised a follow up and that was never made. I don't see how those posts are relevant to this conversation.

By RAW I don't see how Cleave would not work provided that you end up hitting an image on the first swing.

Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

By RAW:

Case closed.

Great Cleave should work the same way until you successfully hit the Mage or miss.

I guess the other option would be to view this not as a typo and give the Eidolons a 50 foot spread (based on the range) for pinpointing and travel but this seems likely to be more powerful than intended.

The eidolon's specific ability is different from the standard Web. It has Hardness 0 rather than (I think the Bestiary means) Hardness 5. The web entangles one creature. The eidolon can't cover an area or place a web sheet to entrap creatures.

The only issue with this solution is that they left in the bit about climbing/travel and pinpointing in the Eidolon description, making this section appear to be an typo.

I think giving it a hardness 0 and using the monster rules is probable the best solution, but it is frustrating that more care was not given to catching typos before this product went to print.

Hopefully then can fix this in official errata and future printings.

Edit: Cheapy beat me to it, but here is a bit more.

regardless, i would ALWAYS treat locating an invisible creature as an *opposed* check situation (perception vs. stealth) as is described by the perception skill (NOT a flat DC).

Actually this is a misconception left over from previous editions. Per perception it is only an opposed roll when someone is "using stealth" (per the Perception rules).

Under Stealth - "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth"

Therefore as soon as you use a verbal component the check is no longer opposed and is just a perception versus the sounds of casting. The perception skill sets the DC for "hear the details of a normal conversation" at 0.

The section on the Eidolon Web (EX) ability looks to be incomplete. The text from the evolution is as follows:

Web (Ex): An eidolon gains a pair of spinnerets, giving it the ability to spin webs. The eidolon can use these webs to support itself plus up to one creature of the same size. It can throw webbing as a ranged touch attack up to 8 times per day, entangling a creature up to one size larger than the eidolon. The webbing has a range of 50 feet and a 10-foot range increment. Creatures entangled by the web can escape with an Escape Artist check or a Strength check (at a –4 penalty). The DC of these checks is equal to 10 + 1/2 the eidolon's HD + the eidolon's Con modifier. The webs have a Hardness of 0 and a number of hits points equal to the eidolon's total Hit Dice. The eidolon can climb its own webs at its climb speed and can pinpoint any creature touching its webs. The eidolon must possess the climb evolution to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution.

Contrast this to the universal monster rules:

Web (Ex) Creatures with the web ability can use webs to support themselves and up to one additional creature of the same size. In addition, such creatures can throw a web up to eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the web spinner. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst the web with a Strength check. Both are standard actions with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the creature's HD + the creature's Con modifier. Attempts to burst a web by those caught in it take a –4 penalty.

Web spinners can create sheets of sticky webbing up to three times their size. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Perception check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot-square section of web has a number of hit points equal to the Hit Dice of the creature that created it and DR 5/—. A creature can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.

Format: web (+8 ranged, DC 16, 5 hp); Location: Special Attacks.

The monster rules have a different hardness on the webs, give a bonus to escape if you have something to walk on and/or grab, and most importantly have rules governing the size of the webs.

Is the summoner rule set for this ability a typo on the part of the book editors and we should use the monster rules? If not what are the size restrictions on the Eidolon's web ability?