Brian has a hard time recalling the details of mortal life. He thinks this is likely the result of being thoroughly Dominated at some point, but he has no real idea why or when he was Embraced or most of the earliest details of his undead existence.
From what he can piece together, he was possibly a mortal in 19th century London. He can recall fragmented scenes of sooty walls and seemingly constant rain, horse drawn carriages, his family[?] - wife, children, and maybe a career as an academic or clergy, a barrister? He’s never sure that what he thinks he’s remembering isn’t just a literal dream he’s latched onto and built into a fantasy life. But even now he has a love of philosophy and books that speaks to his probable history with paper and writing.
He can also seemingly recall bits and pieces of his sire, Philip. Brooding and fairly stereotypical for a Lasombra, the snatches he recalls of his sire bring to mind his use as a tool - no words of praise, no treatment as even a nominal Childe, Brian assumes he must have been Embraced as useful to Philip in some unusual manner. He often has hazy dreams of Philip demanding unpleasant tasks of him, demands he feels powerless to resist.
The day to day reality of continuing his unlife, trying to help those around him and keep the Beast at bay, makes the details of his distant past of little practical or even emotional importance. Brian has left that past far behind in every meaningful sense. Digging into it just isn’t a project he thinks is worth the effort.
He has recently thought that if he were a more faithful person, maybe he could have found God through this trial. After all, a curse from God couldn't be much plainer proof of His existence.
But he’s a more coldly analytical person, needing to think things through and eventually coming to very clear conclusions, but nevertheless nothing resembling the burning torch of Faith. Having true and ultimate faith in a deity that is either perfectly fine with the obvious injustice of the universe on the one hand, or on the other hand simply unaware or unable to stop injustice from happening, was never anything he could manage to achieve.
Sample Post:
Brian emerged from the shipping container in which he'd spent the past few nights. His needs were few and ostentation simply wasn't one of them. Maintaining a shipping company and drifting between its offices had proven to be an absorbing and undemanding existence. It helped that he was able to find his nightly meals for little more trouble than the cost of a six pack and a slight headache for that night's donor from among the graveyard shift dock staff. The night was young, and he had a lot to do.
I would love to play a Lasombra antitribu, relatively clueless about everything Kindred related and behind the 8 ball from the start for his unkosher clan, with even more fun to come when he discovers he's not even from that tribe but an even more hunted bunch.
My character concept is for a wizard, Dexter, currently an apprentice, fairly unreligious, and in terms of the campaign, willing to work with anyone so long as it supports his goal of POWER!
He comes from a noble family and was basically farmed out as an unnecessary child, stuck into a wizard's care as a moderately acceptable profession for someone with the talent, possibly more useful than stuffing him into some church monastery.
His master in magic was thoroughly amoral and abusive and this definitely shaped his formative years. He's clearly learned that the route to getting what you want in life is the careful acquisition of power to crush any opposition and take what you want.
To that end, he's been carefully plotting his escape and with luck the murder of his tormentor, at the same time, and then striking out on his own to make his fortune. Dexter really respects the whole will to power, crush the weak into servitude, ideology, and should fit well into the campaign to defend Cheliax.
Dervish dance [the feat] adds dex. rather than str. to weapon damage, as does the Aldori swordlord PrC. Do these count as precision damage, such that concealment, for instance, would prevent someone with the feat or prestige class from getting the extra damage?
A further sadly niggling rules question, would shadow blending abilities on a monster provide concealment vs. a character with darkvision?
That isn't covered in the spell. Everything about the spell indicates that when you possess the body the current soul is forced out. The spell indicates that it is in fact forced into a prison. When you use the ability without the prison, there is no reason to think that the soul isn't still forced out.
Further, in the spell Magic Jar, it specifies that "Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain."
While I don't think that your interpretation is bad for flavor, there is also no mechanical reason that I see within the spell to indicate that the interpretation is correct. Expect table variation, because the intention isn't clear, and neither is RAW.
Memorysquid, I hit FAQ on your previous attempt to get an answer at this, and am doing so again.
Lol. And this is why I was hoping for it to make the FAQ. :)
Like I said, I think the similarity of wording and function between the witch and ghost/shadow demon possession, which I never understood as fatal, certainly leans toward Twin Soul not being fatal. Yes the Magic Jar spell swaps the soul into the receptacle, but I see no reason to presume that a spell which operates absent a receptacle and is mentioned as "possession" would swap the soul into thin air. Still, since the RAW is almost non-existent absent the jar reference, this seems to be a prime candidate for clarification.
More books -> more character options -> inevitable supply of power-gaming uber characters that roll over combat encounters like a bulldozer on steroids -> authors using same power-gaming uber combos to challenge parties of uber characters (or crush parties without several uber characters).
The only way I can can think of avoiding what I describe above is to restrict the 'power creep'. That said, the PFS campaign has pretty much 'already handed out the candy' (or cheese, if you prefer). Once you hand it out, it's damn near impossible to take it back. The only way to do that I have seen is to have a campaign (or game rules) reset. Welcome to Pathfinder RPG 2.0. $$$ (And, there, folks, lies the genius of what an organized play campaign can do for your business model). :-p
Yeah I was happiest with Pathfinder before the advanced guides came out. Inevitably one of the later supplements puts out a PrC that is poorly written, completely game breaking compared to the core classes and PrCs and we're off to the munchkin races!
But to be honest, from a roleplaying perspective even from a gaming perspective, it's not an individual endeavor. It's a team effort so you have to also be responsible for ensuring the team performs well.
Agreed. But, we have to recognize that many new players aren't going to be good yet at that teamwork function, some players just aren't ever going to really get it, and some players actively eschew doing anything in a cooperative manner.
If the game has transitioned to a difficulty level in which strong teamwork is not only prized, but fundamentally necessary for success, that's an important thing to note, as I think it makes it a lot less newbie-friendly.
I agree completely. Like I said, it was a big surprise to me when after several years of PFS play I suddenly encountered a scenario where a TPK would have happened had we not started using superior tactics immediately. That was all new - welcome for me at least, but a giant change from previous mods.
S1-S3 scenarios: I'm not too worried who I sit with. S4 scenarios: I definitely size up the abilities of both the players and their characters I game with...and I don't want to do that.
But to be honest, from a roleplaying perspective even from a gaming perspective, it's not an individual endeavor. It's a team effort so you have to also be responsible for ensuring the team performs well.
That wasn't his point, or at least I didn't get it that way. I think his point was that he's bringing enough to the table, but because it's a group effort, that's not enough. The other characters should be able to pull off their weight as well.
And I feel exactly the same way. I know what my characters can do, and how they contribute to the team. But I see a lot of characters who I constantly worry about. Maybe they're starting fights when they shouldn't. Or they don't know the concept of retreat. Or they don't have any ability to see invisible, to handle darkness, or to fly. And I wouldn't want to worry about them (as a player, in-character that's cool).
Heck, if there are season 3 and season 4 scenarios to choose from, I don't want to pick the season 3 one just because I fear the other characters might die. Still, that's kinda what I did today.
Well in my ham handed way that actually was what I was trying to address. Realistically, and social gaming in modeling realistic situations, a capable individual can fail at a group task through no fault of his own. In other words, I don't think it's a bug, it's a feature.
The one negative thing I think S4 has done, for me personally, is that it has made me worry about the capabilities of other characters at the table--no matter how well I build my character it's still a group endeavor. S1-S3 scenarios: I'm not too worried who I sit with. S4 scenarios: I definitely size up the abilities of both the players and their characters I game with...and I don't want to do that.
Heh heh. Maybe they can label a mod "PUG friendly" and that would fix it? But to be honest, from a roleplaying perspective even from a gaming perspective, it's not an individual endeavor. It's a team effort so you have to also be responsible for ensuring the team performs well.
See I just think they've actually become challenging. Prior to this it was a figurative cakewalk. I found PFS mods required no thought whatsoever, minimal risk of failure and if anyone died it was through either complete inattention on the part of the players or something random like a lucky crit on a lowbie.
My surprise was almost complete when I realize mid-encounter on a 4th season mod that "Hey, we better start strategizing or the majority of the party is going to die here."
To be honest, my interest in further PFS play shot up about 100% after that mod. Prior to that the only reason to play was to have something enduring to bring to conventions. Now they seem interesting in their own right.
So, no flaming. You've got your opinion and I have mine. Just saying I find them far more interesting and challenging than they were previously. Squeaking out a victory from the jaws of a TPK is much more fun than drifting from encounter to encounter where the biggest challenge is seeing who kills baddies quickest.
Everything you need to know is already covered in the spell, effectively it allows both souls to exist within the creatures body (as you have no receptacle to move the other persons soul into),
Thanks a bunch. As I said, that was my presumption too, but everyone around me presumed otherwise and acted as if I didn't understand elementary logic, so I wanted to double check.
4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Beast Bonded Witch has a 10th level SU ability to, as if using Magic Jar, take over another creature's body at will, as long as the PC & his familiar are currently sharing a body. The power specifies the Magic Jar like ability requires no receptacle. The spell Magic Jar references the receptacle in over 50% of the sentences in the spell's entry and almost all the mechanics. Removing all references to the soul receptacle from the spell leaves its function completely arbitrary.
In a homebrew, everyone can simply agree how it works, but I'd presume for PFS there needs to be a universally understood function? There is no clear way to determine that from what is left of Magic Jar if you delete all references to the jar itself and the jar's function from the spell.
The flavor text of the spell mentions it is an attempt to possess. The mechanics reference the fact that if a soul has nowhere to go, it dies. Normally the soul of the caster goes in the jar, and is then swapped to the target creature with the target's soul going in the jar.
With what's left of the RAW after removing all mentions of the jar, I'd presume the spell would function like a ghost's malevolence or a shadow demon's own magic jar, which are both described as possessions as well, and which I've never understood to be 'save or [literally] die' powers. I wouldn't have thought twice about this, however, several people including a VC have assured me I am wrong, and variously that only the witch power is fatal for the possessee or that all three would be.
Have I missed an errata, PFS clarification or otherwise on this? If not, can there be an official clarification for PFS specifically?
I like that interpretation for consistency's sake. I just don't think the RAI would entail that possession is a fatal power; I know they don't play it that way in the mods.
As for the RAW, who knows? The spell references the receptacle so much I don't think you are even able to read the text and make an unbiased determination of how it works without simply inventing a home rule. The majority of the sentences in the spell refer to some interaction with the receptacle. Saying you can use it without a receptacle leaves a fairly large void for RAW.
Anyone have any ideas at all then? A logical reason why Twin Soul would pop a soul out of a body based on the text of a Magic Jar that functions without a receptacle but not ghosts or shadow demons? This is relevant to PFS play too I think.
This power is written in an ambiguous manner. I am wondering if there's an official clarification anywhere that specifies how "magic jar without a receptacle" works or Twin soul specifically. Magic jar as a spell is riddled with references to the jar and if you take them out, there's no spell left. You have to invent results because the spell frequently references the jar.
Ghosts' malevolence is an SU that functions as magic jar, w/o a receptacle and makes no mention of the host soul in the bestiary text. The flavor text describes it as possession.
Shadow demons have magic jar as an SP, spell like abilities being clarified as not needing foci - so w/o a receptacle. The flavor text describes it as possession. No mention of displacing the soul in the power or bestiary text.
Twin soul is described as taking over another body [possession?] as if using magic jar [without a receptacle]. No mention of the host's soul is in the power or Beast bonded witch text.
The spell magic jar mentions removing the caster's soul to the jar which then attacks another life force and swaps souls with it. Obviously that won't happen when there is no receptacle focus, but what does happen?
Here's the question: does Twin Soul displace the soul of the possessed target thus killing it instantly by RAW? I'm dealing with some real RAW sticklers who've decided that is what it means. I don't see it. In fact, if you remove references to the jar, I don't think there is enough coherent left of the spell to make it meaningful which necessitates home ruling.
I think the reasonable solution is to treat Twin Soul as the similarly worded and related powers of the ghost and shadow demon which I've always understood as a temporary possession. That or treat ghosts and witches as having a save or die possession power with no SR and shadow demons the same but with SR.
But I would love an official answer because it seems a vague and potentially broken power as written.
