Mathmuse's page

Somewhat unrelated to the question above, I have also considered taking the Alchemist Archetype, just because it would allow me to craft the Silvertongue Mutagen and get a bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidation (but since that would be the only boost to my detective abilities the Alchemist archetype would grant me, it isn’t that enticing). How many free archetype levels would I need to sink into the Alchemist to be able to craft the Major Silvertongue Mutagen?

I had to conduct some reseach on this question, because the pre-Remastered Dedications almost always had a clause, "Special You can't select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the witch archetype." I noticed that the Remastered Witch archetype lacked it. That is because it moved into the rules. Page 215 of the Player Core under Dedication Details says, "Once you take a dedication feat, you can’t select a different dedication feat until you complete your dedication by taking two other feats from your current archetype." The Free Archetype rules on page 84 of the GM Core say, "If the group all has the same archetype or draws from a limited list, you might want to ignore the free archetype’s normal restriction of selecting a certain number of feats before taking a new archetype. That way a character can still pursue another archetype that also fits their character." I did that waiver in my Strength of Thousands campaign, which recommends giving all PCs a free wizard or druid archetype becuase they are students at a magic school. But it sounds like BG2's free archetype is not from a limited list.

The advantage of taking Alchemist Multiclass Dedication as a class-feat rather than Alchemical Crafting as a skill feat is that the multiclass alchemist can make four temporary alchemical items a day via versatile vials for free. That benefit is usually not worth the effort of juggling two archetypes.

The Alchemical Sciences Methodology for investigator also gives the versatile vials. But though bard feats offer Multifarious Muse feat 2 for a 2nd muse and druid offers Order Explorer feat 2 for a 2nd order, I don't see an investigator feat for a 2nd methodology.

EDIT: I am not an expert on alchemists. After reading Tridus's comment below, I checked the rules on mutagens and found, "Source Player Core 2 pg. 289 1.1
Mutagens are a special type of elixir that temporarily transmogrify the subject's body and mind. Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens."
Looks like Alchemist Multiclass Archetype is necessary for Silvertongue Mutagen.

SECOND EDIT: Further research revealed that alchemists have feats to get more out of mutagens, but non-alchemists with Alchemical Crafting can still make mutagens. Anyone know for sure?

As others have explained, spells fall into traditions and spellcasters can learn any common spells of their tradition. Uncommon spells are usually available, too, but the Uncommon trait means that the GM can forbid that spell. Also, some Uncommon spells are restricted to certain classes, but none on BG2's list fall into that group.

Object Reading, Spell 1, Traditions occult, also granted as divine to clerics of Aerekostes and Cosmic Caravan
Detect Alignment, Uncommon Spell 1, Traditions divine, occult
Impeccable Flow, Uncommon Spell 2, Traditions arcane, divine
Locate, Uncommon Spell 3, Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Ring of Truth, Uncommon Spell 3, Traditions divine, occult
Discern Lies, Uncommon Spell 4, Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Scouting Eye, Spell 5, Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Pinpoint, Uncommon Spell 8, Traditions arcane, divine, occult
Proliferating Eyes, Spell 9, Traditions arcane, divine, occult

Let me add some caveats. Alignment was dropped in the PF2 Remastering, so unless the campaign is using pre-Remastered Legacy rules, Detect Alignment has nothing to detect. And spellcasting from an archetype goes up to only 8th rank, so Proliferating Eyes is not available via archetype.

Let me explain how spellcasting archetypes usually work. The 2nd-level Dedication feat that begins the archetype grants 2 cantrips of the class's tradition. A 4th-level Basic Spellcasting feat grants basic spellcating benefits. These basic spellcasting benefits start wtih a single 1st-rank spell slot and a spell to fill that slot. The different classes offer different ways to learn additional spells, but for a spontaneous class, the gains from spellcasting benefits are the only way. At 6th level, that 4th-level feat also grants you a 2nd-rank spell slot, and at 8th level it grants you a 3rd-rank spell slot, no additional feat required. At 10th level, nothing happens. Instead, at 12th level the spellcasting archetype offers an Expert Spellcasting feat that grants a 4th-rank slot at 12th level, a 5th-rank slot at 14th level, and an 6th-rank slot at 16th level. At 18th level the spellcasting archetype offers a Master Spellcasting feat that grants a 7th-rank slot at 18th level and an 8th-rank slot at 20th level. The archetype does not provide a way to get 9th-rank or 10th-rank spells.

Suppose BG2's investigator decided on Witch Multiclass Archetype, because Witch is an Int-based spellcaster that with the right patron can learn occult spells. At 2nd level, the investigator gains a familiar and one cantrip--fewer cantrips than most archetypes because of getting the familiar, too. Though the investigator can prepare only one cantrip a day, they and their familiar can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn a variety of occult cantrips. At 4th level, the investigator takes Basic Witch Spellcasting to learn the Object Reading occult spell. Yep, the investigator has to wait for 4th level to gain the 1st spell on BG2's list.

At 6th level, the investigator with witch multiclass can learn a 2nd-rank spell, but not Impeccable Flow, because that is only in the arcane and divine traditions. At 8th level, the investigator can learn Locate and Ring of Truth. However, Basic Witch Spellcasting provides only common spells for free, and those two are uncommon. That means that the GM has to agree that the investigator found instructions on those spells in a library or from a fellow spellcaster and used the Learn a Spell activity. In summary, the investigator has to do a lot of research and study, but that should be routine for an investigator, right?

Fortunately, the investigator has an alternative route. They could buy a wand of the spell. A wand of a 3rd-rank spell, such as Locate, is an item 7 costing only 360 gp. GMs typically let 8th-level characters buy 7th-level items.

Meanwhile, if another party member is a divine or occult caster, that party member could have teamed up with the investigator to cast Locate or Ring of Truth back at 5th level. The investigator might decide that they themself don't need to learn the spell.

This character design has the investigator learning spells to accomplish tasks that an investigator is already good at. That is not an efficient strategy. On the other hand, the investigator could learn magic for other purposes, such as dealing damage with a spell when they rolled low on Devise a Stratagem, and the occasional casting of Object Reading would be for convenience rather than efficiency.

Back in comment #28 I mentioned that the Lost Omens Travel Guide had some information on infrastructure. Page 34 has a map of the major international trade routes near the Inner Sea and page 36 has a text description of them. For example, the North Tack is the ship route that follows the north coast of the Inner Sea and the South Tack follows the south coast of the Inner Sea. The Path of Aganhei goes over the northern ice cap to connect Avistan and Tian Xia. The Sellen Passage is the River Sellen through Taldor and all its major tributaries further north.

Most of these trade routes do appear to rely in sea or river transporation, with portages to connect headwaters of separate river systems.

Concerning Castilliano's comment #60 Dragonchess Player replied,

Logistics part 2: Operating costs.

You mentioned using a roc for transportation. What do you feed it? Probably the equivalent of a team of oxen every couple weeks. When you could just keep two teams of oxen to draw a pair of wagons, replacing them every 5-10 years, instead of going through 25 teams of oxen every year.

This thread has repeated reminded me how much my players care about infrastructure and logistics, because I keep finding examples related to this dicussion.

In Fangs of War, 2nd module of Ironfang Invasion, the 7th-level party had to fight three Ironfang rangers with fledgling roc animal companions. These rocs were only the size of large owls, but I felt that calling a bird a roc required a bigger size. I changed them to Large and gave them enough strength to carry a humanoid in their talons but they had to drop the person at the end of turn. The party killed two of the rangers though the 3rd escaped. And the stormborn druid Stormdancer adopted one of the orphaned fledgling rocs, Roxie, as an animal companion, on a promise to gain Animal Order via Order Explorer on her next level-up. I declared that Stormdancer's Stormwind Flight order spell could be applied to Roxie so that she was able to carry Stormdancer as a rider for ten minutes, at which time Stormdancer would have restored a focus point to recast Stormwind Flight. This mitigated a logistics problem that the 7-member party was too large for most transportation spells, so the sorcerer typically had to summon six Phantasmal Steeds/Marvelous Mounts with six spells (the monk was fast enough to run instead of ride). Roxie reduced the necessary number of Marvelous Mounts to five.

Stormdancer tried to give the other orphaned fledgling roc to an NPC ranger, but the ranger passed the roc Rocko to a teenaged girl Menolly.

In the 2nd module of my Strength of Thousands campaign, I had Menolly enroll at the Magaambya Academy as a druid student assigned to the same dormitory as the PCs. She showed up two weeks early before the Academy was ready to feed Rocko. The PCs immediately sprang to action, making a deal with some farmers that they had once helped to care for a flock of sheep that Rocko could eat. Back in Nirmathas Menolly and Rocko hunted in the wild forest to feed Rocko, but near the city of Nantambu animals were property.

A Large fledgling roc is much easier to feed than a Gargantuan adult roc, which are known in folklore for eating elephants. But a Str +8 gargantuan Roc that can lift an elephant and still fly would be great for transporting container-sized loads over impassable terrain such as a mountain pass and might be worth the cost to weekly feed them oxen, especially if the roc and its handler could sometimes take a day off to hunt wild monsters for free food.

Today I attended a celebration of the 200th anniversary of the Erie Canal. The Buffalo Maritime Center built a replica of the first canal boat, the Seneca Chief, to traverse the Erie Canal and is sending it down the canal from Buffalo to New York City. My wife and I visited it in Baldwinsville, New York.

I will know more about building canals in 1825 AD after I read the books I bought.

I once added a canal with a lock system to my Ironfang Invasion campaign. The 3rd module Assault on Longshadow says that Longshadow has a significant river shipping industry on the Marideth River. It also has a smelting industry for the ores mined in the Mindspin Mountains and the Hollow Hills, and since its road system is minimal, shipping the refined metals by river would make the most sense. Unfortunately, the text description of the Marideth River om the 1st module describes it has having waterfalls, and the endpaper map of the region found in all six modules shows a major waterfall downriver from Longshadow. Upstream is only sparsely inhabited mountains. I described this problem in my thread River Shipping from Longshadow, but no-one had an answer.

The reason for the problem is that most maps of the Marideth River are on a scale where all rivers are flat blue squiggles with no details, so no-one knows the location of the waterfalls. They could be in the mountains upstream of Longshadow. The artist of the endpaper maps chose to put a waterfall where the uplands of the Hollow Hills ended, which is downriver from Longshadow. That artist probably did not see the article on Longshadow, and the writer of the article probably did not see the detailed map.

My PCs had already visited the waterfall, so I kept it. I put a canal alongside the waterfall with a system of locks. These canals were in disrepair because the Ironfang Legions monster handlers had released three bulettes to destroy the locks and isolate Longshadow from reinforcements. After the siege of Longshadow, the PCs fought the bulettes so that the city could repair the locks.

OrochiFuror wrote:

Agree. All the anathema are opt in, and they are almost universally things a character choosing the associated option would naturally be inclined to do.

If you want a character to have an option but not it's associated anathema, you should think why a character would be drawn to that option and what beliefs they have. What would make them want that option but not it's anathema.
If the answer pans out to be because your making something silly or contrarian, then you should recognise that such things don't generally fit into Golarian, and you should talk with your GM about it.

I don't think that is fair, people didn’t opt to worship a deity or be bound by their rules; they chose to play a class with healer mechanics and then had the deity and anathema forced on them. Their only option was to either accept those two or not play the class.

I mentioned that my campaigns have not yet had a cleric PC. Pathfinder 2nd Edition is good about other classes becoming healers. The healers have been a druid, a primal sorcerer, a playtest animist, and a bard.

And as OrochiFuror said, we GMs can change edicts and anathema if the player provides a good reason.

Some players may be hardcore atheists who strongly dislike the concept of worshiping anything and find it humiliating. Others may be very religious and find the concept too close to idolatry (remember the satanic panic). Some players simply played healers in other games, like MMOs, as a white mage or something similar, and wanted to do the same here. I don’t see the point of forcing a vegan to eat meat, and I don’t see the point of forcing someone who doesn’t want to worship gods into pledging divine servitude to a fictional character.

Yes. One member of my housemate's Elder Scrolls Online guild is an observant Jew who avoids the most idolatrous parts of the game. ESO still has plenty of other content for her.

Pathfinder would be great for a vegan. That player could play an ancestry that cannot eat meat, such as a poppet.

This feels like a good time for describing how the champion of Grandmother Spider fulfilled the edicts and anathema of Grandmother Spider. I am copying and pasting from How does a Liberator Champion Deal with Slavers? comment #45.

Let's look at how this is roleplayed. The tailed goblin detective-background liberator-cause champion Tikti grew up in the Goblinsworth Library, a project to raise civilized goblins. She is an avid bookworm and crafter. She follows the goddess Grandmother Spider, also known as The Weaver. The edicts of Grandmother Spider call for acting skilled and clever, thinking for yourself, taking due payment for your work, and humiliating the powerful. The anathema of Grandmother Spider forbid abusing someone you have power over, harming someone who has given you sincere kindness, letting a slight go unanswered, and owning a slave. And because Grandmother Spider is a god of crafting, Tikti can Refocus by repairing her shield after combat.

Her build is strange enough that she is clearly thinking for herself. She is a high-Dexterity champion in light armor. Her animal companion from Steed Ally is a velociraptor Liklik. Tikti specializes in defense and Liklik specializes in offense, so as a pair they are well-rounded in melee. Or Tikti pairs up with other party members to keep them alive. She is very tactical.

The party had no social problems dealing with slavery, because the slavers are their enemies in a war. Nevertheless, I recall a social situation that occurred.

The party had defeated the Ironfang garrison in the conquered village Ecru and freed some slaves. Then the party moved on to an adjacent Ironfang camp on another mission; however, Tikti and an elf ranger needed to sit out that second mission because their players were not available that session. We declared that Tikti and the elf were guarding the slaves rescued in Ecru, waiting for a boat that the party had called for via a Sending spell, and hauling the munitions stored in Ecru down to the docks.

Next game session I had a hobgoblin patrol return to Ecru along the river. The elf spotted them first and hid, but Tikti said that she did not need to hide. She was trained in Deception. She is a goblin and pretended to be a workboss ordering the slaves around as they carried barrels of explosives. She bantered with the hobgoblin patrol as they passed. The hobgoblins had some racial prejudice against goblins but were not going to bother a lesser member of the Ironfang Legion. The patrol moved on and soon realized the garrison was missing, but the other five members of the party returned at that moment. The patrol was caught between the two parts of the party and quickly defeated without risk to the rescued slaves.

Trickery is one of Grandmother Spider's domains.

But Tikti would have been clever even without an edict demanding that she be clever. The one edict that she barely follows is taking due payment, because the party gives most of their loot to the needy. What is due payment when the character is her own boss and voluntarily works pro bono?

Tikti once met Grandmother Spider face to face. She appeared to help a fellow party member acquire divine powers. Those divine powers later let the party defeat an avatar of Hadregash, the goblinoid hero-god of tyranny, but Tikti was instrumental in keeping that other party member alive during the fight. The humiliating defeat of the avatar let Lamashtu appear in person and remove slavery from Hadregash's areas of concern. Lamashtu dislikes slavery because it prevents slaves from being monstrous. The PF1 version of Hadregash in Goblins of Golarion has his areas of concern as "slavery, supremacy, territory," but slavery is not mentioned in the Remastered PF2 version except that his religious symbol is still "Chain and manacle." Instead, PF2 Hadregash is demands conquest that gains subjects rather than slaves.

I like the name of the demigoddess Argwyn in the Continuing the Campaign section of Vault of the Onyx Citadel by Crystal Fraiser. The module as written had Argwyn created by Dryad Queen Arlantia by combining her own genetics with divine essence stolen from the imprisoned goddess Gendowyn. Clearly, the name "Argwyn" was built from "Ar" from "Arlantia" and "g" and "wyn" from "Gendowyn." Yet having the name start with "Arg" highlighted that Argywn was the antagonist.

In my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign, I changed Argwyn's origin to be a Reflection created by Cyth-V’sug from Gendowyn's shadow. The party made peace with her and she is now a permanent goddess in my campaign world and a member of the Fangwood Pantheon.

Players don't generally pick Druid as their class if the intent of the character is to despoil nature and pollute the air and water.

I saw that happen once in a PF1 Rise of the Runelords campaign run by my wife (months later I took over as GM, beginning my career as forever GM). A teenaged player joined at the end of the 2nd module and wanted to play a big-game hunter. He named his character Saxton Hale after a hunter character in the Team Fortress game. And he decided that druid was the best class for Saxton Hale.

When the party received a reward at the end of the module, Saxton Hale spent half of his share on incendiary consumables. He liked starting fires. And during some downtime in town, he asked the GM whether he could go out into the forest and hunt and kill animals for extra experience points. The GM said no.

Eventually, Saxton Hale's inconsiderate behavior led to the death of another PC. The party voted to kick him out of the party. And we players voted to kick the player out of our group.

Under PF2 rules, Saxton Hale might have worked with the anathema of the Flame Order. But the player would have probably chosen Animal Order and cruelly overworked his animal companion.

I think the thing that the high-level PC party is bad at (and is still important in war) is "holding territory for as long as it takes" since that basically requires the PCs to stay in one place and that means they can't go solve problems elsewhere.

The Ironfang Invasion adventure path is a war story. The Ironfang Legion is trying to conquer a corner of Nirmathas and a corner of Molthune to form the nation of Oprak. The 1st module has the PCs as refugees from a conquered Nirmathi town, the 2nd module has them solving the mystery of why Nirmathas's Chernasardo Ranger defenders failed, but the 3rd module, Assault on Longshadow, is outright war as they defend the city of Longshadow from an Ironfang army.

Technically, the holding-territory issue can be handwaved, because the territory is returned to its original inhabitants. But my players were not satisfied with that omission. And their answer was infrastructure, both physical and social.

In the first two modules, they regularly defeated Ironfang patrols. They look the weapons and armor from the patrollers and gave them to civilians. Assault on Longshadow had a section were the PCs repaired the city walls of Longshadow, a physical infrastructure activity. They trained Longshadow civilians to help defend the city. And after that battle, they re-established the Chernasardo Rangers from the surviving rangers that they had rescued in the 2nd module.

The Chernasardo Rangers were descended from a group of revolutionaries who had fought for independence from Molthune rule about 60 years beforehand. They lived hidden in the forest so that the Molthune troops could not find their bases. That became a weakness in Ironfang Invasion because the Ironfang Legion had taken them down before their main invasion without any village or town getting word of the incursion. My PCs re-established the Chernasardo Rangers in the villages and cities, both for easier recruiting of new members and to more directly defend the villages.

Another piece of social infrastructure they created was a mail service. One of the PCs, gnome rogue Binny, had a backstory as a messenger. When the PCs retired after defeating the Ironfang Legion (the nation of Oprak did not get founded in my campaign world), Binny returned to messenger duty, but now she was a 20th-level rogue/mammoth lord with a Jubjub Bird animal companion. She inspired others and they formed the Monster Rider Messenger Service.

The PCs also founded a standing army. They had to do something with the Ironfang invaders still alive. The PCs had no problem with the hobgoblins and other so-called uncivilized species settling down in Nirmathas. Their objection had been to them taking land from Nirmathi residents and enslaving those residents. The government of Nirmathas is best described as cooperative anarchy: groups would volunteer for traditional government duties such as the Chernasardo Rangers volunteering for civil defense. The PCs formed the surviving Ironfangs into another civil defense group to give them a place in Nirmathi society. The monster-handlers in the Ironfang Legion mostly joined the Monster Riders instead.

Some of my players are strong roleplayers. I am more interested in seeing how they develop a consistent character with their own values than how they stick to an outside standard.

None have played a cleric, but one played a druid (both Animal and Storm Orders and two played a champion (one Liberator champion following Grandmother Spider and one Redeemer champion following Cayden Cailean), and one played a barbarian (Giant Instinct). We also had a monk, but that class has no anathemas.

The Animal-and-Storm druid threw a lot of Produce Flame and Fireball spells, but technically, that was not against the Storm Order's no-air-pollution anathema. The player of the Grandmother Spider champion carefully searched through descriptions of several gods until she found one that fit how her champion would act. The Cayden Cailean champion attends the Magaambya Academy and roleplays as a a frat boy, i.e., an athlete who parties with alcoholic drinks. The barbarian was a cute little pine leshy who wielded a big stick, so no-one was interested in challenging her.

In contrast, my Strength of Thousands party at the Magaambya Academy adopted a code of never killing an intelligent creature. This campaign started in a city where criminals could be jailed rather than killed. Their principles may change now that they are away from the city on a field expedition, but when the party encountered their first group of bandits, they laughed at the bandits' attempt to rob the party via Intimidation and gave them directions to Whitebridge Station where they could find honest work.

And edicts and anathemas sometimes have unintended side effects. Currently, I am fleshing out a friendly NPC cleric of Uvulo. The anathema for Uvulo forbids, "crush an egg." That is because Uvulo is a dragon god who represents peace with dragons and hope for the future. To dragons, eggs are a symbol of future generations (at least, that is my interpretation). The weird side effect is that a cleric of Uvulo cannot cook with eggs, because that involves cracking open an egg. But that is no stranger than many dietary restrictions in real-world religions.

In Prisoners of the Blight my Ironfang Invasion party rescued Gendowyn, a fairy goddess with a physical body, from seven centuries of imprisonment by Queen Arlantia, an agent of Cyth-V’sug. In serving Cyth-V’sug Arlantia had created a blighted region in the Fangwood. Therefore, Gendowyn's edicts include, "destroy blighted fey and agents of Cyth-V’sug." But many of the blighted fey were blighted against their will. The party talked Gendowyn into curing them rather than destroying them. This altered Gendowyn's edict in my campaign world to, "protect the forest from corruption especially by agents of Cyth V'sug."

My players are very experienced and take these decisions out of my hands. I start by describing the situation narratively, and then they start making their own plans before I could get into the possible skill checks they could perform.

For example, in the module Spoken in the Song Wind the PCs were assigned to work with the local police called the Chime-Ringers (the police used chimes rather than police whistles). The local Chime-Ringer representative, Virgil Tibbs, I had created to playtest the Runesmith class, so I deviated from the module as written. He told them the current case: robbers were grabbing the musical instruments and donation bowls of street musicians and running. If the musician or a bystander gave chase, they found a thug in their way, who delayed them long enough for the robber to get out of sight.

The module proposed a set of DCs for various methods of obtaining clues. Questioning the street musicians said, "Getting useful information from them requires a successful DC 20 Diplomacy, Performance, or Society check, or a DC 18 check using a relevant lore (such as Art Lore)." Asking the Chime-Ringers (the module as written did not have them working directly with a Chime-Ringer) said, "Obtaining information requires a successful DC 18 Diplomacy or Society check, or a DC 16 check using a relevant lore (such as Legal Lore)." Questioning shady characters with underworld connections said, "Getting useful information from them requires a successful DC 22 Deception, Intimidation, or Thievery check, or a DC 20 check using a relevant lore (such as Underworld Lore)." They could question multiple performers or shady characters for more clues with each check taking half a day. For ending the investigation, the module said, "Once they’ve obtained four clues from any source, they know enough to track the robbers to their hideout." The module provided a map of the hideout for combat to arrest the robbers.

My players did not give me time to describe those options. Instead, they began discussing a possible trap among themselves. Some of the PCs were well trained in Performance. They teamed up with three street musicians to hold a well-advertised charity performance at an open marketplace for the victims of robbery. They used the Item Facade spell to make cheap musical instruments appear more expensive. The robbers showed up, tried their grab-and-run, but not all of them succeeded in escaping. Two were captured. And the familiars of two PCs followed the ones who did escape to their hideout. Details at Virgil Tibbs, Playtest Runesmith, comment #8.

I had them make Diplomacy checks for working with street musicians to hold a charity performance. The performing PCs had Performance checks, but those were just for fun. The non-performing PCs had easy Deception checks for blending into the crowd, or a harder Stealth check for hiding on a roof. A Perception check for Sense Motive let them spot a thief on his preliminary walk-through. The party had a nonlethal combat encounter to capture robbers after the grab. And the familiars had Stealth checks for follow escaped robbers unseen. But I was reacting to the PCs' actions rather than telling the players their options myself.

I guess this counts as a narrative approach in which the GM does not fully control the narrative.

In the Monster Core entry for Skeleton Guard it states, "Most skeletons have one of these abilities. If you give a skeleton more, you might want to increase its level and adjust its statistics."

My question is regarding the adjust its statistics part of the rule. To me, it seems clear that the intent is to increase the creatures level because a second (or more) ability increases its lethality. Wouldn't increasing its statistics compound this effect? Or is said compounding the intent?

Thank you in advance for any help. All apologies if this has been discussed before.

That section about Skeleton Abilities is the preamble to the Skeleton section, pages 312 and 313 in the Monster Core. It was copied into the skeleton entries in the Archives of Nethys because usually the preamble clarifies the nature of the creatures. However, the nature-of-creature part of the preamble is a single line, "Animated skeletons are among the most common types of undead." The rest of the preamble is about designing specialty skeletons and relates to the paragraph labeled "Creating Skeletons." If you intend to use the Skeleton Guard as written, ignore the skeleton ability instructions. The Skeleton Guard is creature -1, the lowest-level skeleton that has no special abilities beyond abilities that all skeletons have.

For using the special abilties, let me imagine creating a Skeletal Shark, an aquatic undead based on the Bristled Reef Shark, creature 1. I glance at the Skeletal Soldier, creature 1, to see what skeletal features I need to add to the shark: negative healing, immunities to death effects, disease, mental, paralyzed, poison, and unconscious, and resistances to cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5, piercing 5, and slashing 5. The shark loses its Bristle and Compression abilities, because it is a generic shark, so I want to substitute in a skeleton ability to replace them. Screaming Skull makes no sense when the shark has no arms to throw its skull, so let me pick Collapse.

Skeletal Shark Creature 1
Medium Aquatic Mindless Skeleton Undead
Based on Bristled Reef Shark, Pathfinder #216: The Acropolis Pyre pg. 84
Perception +7; blood scent, scent (imprecise) 100 feet
Skills Acrobatics +7, Athletics +5, Stealth +7
Str +1, Dex +4, Con +2, Int -5, Wis +1, Cha +2
Blood Scent The shark can smell blood in the water from up to 1 mile away.
AC 16; Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +4
HP 16 (negative healing); Immunities death effects, disease, mental, paralyzed, poison, unconscious; Resistances cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5, piercing 5, slashing 5
Collapse [reaction] Trigger The skeletal shark is critically hit; Effect The shark collapses into a pile of bones that float in its square and the attack deals only normal damage. The shark can re-form as an action, but until it does, it is immobilized and off-guard.
Speed swim 35 feet
Melee [one-action] jaws +5 [+0/-5], Damage 1d8+1 piercing
Reef Rake [one-action] Requirements The shark's last action was a successful jaws Strike, and the target is adjacent to a solid surface like a wall or reef; Effect The shark attempts an Athletics check to Reposition the target into the adjacent surface. If successful, the target is thrown into the surface and takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage. If the surface is jagged (such as a reef), target instead takes 2d6 slashing damage and 1 persistent bleed damage.

I also have to consider the effects of Aquatic Combat on the conversion from living shark to skeleton. Bludgeoning damage is the best way to deal with skeletons, but aquatic combat gives a a –2 circumstance penalty to your attack roll for bludgeoning atacks, making the Skeletal Shark harder to hit than a skeleton on land. On the other hand, aquatic combat also grants resistance 5 to acid and fire, but the skeleton already has resistance fire 5, and the redundant resistance does not stack. One advantage and one disadvantage from aquatic combat means I ought not worry.

Now suppose on a whim I also give the Skeletal Shark the Bloody ability, "Bloody A coating of blood gives the skeleton fast healing equal to its level." I could balance this by removing the Reef Rake ability, but that whim wants to keep the Reef Rake, too. I had dropped the shark's hit points from the Bristled Reff Shark's HP 21 to the Skeletal Soldier's HP 16 because it gained skeletal immunities and resistances (the negative healing does not matter much because no-one will try to heal it.) If I add fast healing 1 to the Skeletal Shark, then it would become a lot harder to kill. It could swim away from the PCs, since it has a Swim Speed and they don't, and come back at full hit points. The Bloody Skeletal Shark could be be too tough to count as a mere 1st-level creature.

But it could also be too weak to count as a 2nd-level creature. A 2nd-level creature is supposed to be 41% more powerful than a 1st-level creature. Fast healing 1 would heal the shark for only 2 hit points in a 2-round combat, if the party stops it from slowing combat to heal more. Rather than deal with the ambiguity of a creature too strong to be 1st level and too weak to be 2nd level, the Skeleton Abilities rules suggest giving it better numbers according to the Building Creatures rules in the GM Core so that if fits the power curve properly as a 2nd-level creature.

Table 2–2: Perception says the Bloody Skeletal Shark's perception would increase from +7 (moderate 1st level) to +8 (moderate 2nd level). Likewise, its skills and saving throwas go up by +1. Table 2–5: Armor Class says its high AC 16 goes up to AC 18. Table 2–7: Hit Points says HP 16 at 1st-level is the top value in the low column, so the equivalent at 2nd level is HP 25. Its resistances stay at 5. Bloody ability says its fast healing equals its level, so it goes up to 2. And so on.

Bloody Skeletal Shark Creature 2
Medium Aquatic Mindless Skeleton Undead
Based on Bristled Reef Shark, Pathfinder #216: The Acropolis Pyre pg. 84
Perception +8; blood scent, scent (imprecise) 100 feet
Skills Acrobatics +8, Athletics +6, Stealth +8
Str +1, Dex +4, Con +2, Int -5, Wis +1, Cha +2
Blood Scent The shark can smell blood in the water from up to 1 mile away.
AC 18; Fort +8, Ref +11, Will +5
HP 25 (negative healing); Immunities death effects, disease, mental, paralyzed, poison, unconscious; Resistances cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5, piercing 5, slashing 5
Bloody Bloody Skeletal Shark has fast healing 2.
Collapse [reaction] Trigger The bloody skeletal shark is critically hit; Effect The shark collapses into a pile of bones that float in its square and the attack deals only normal damage. The shark can re-form as an action, but until it does, it is immobilized and off-guard.
Speed swim 35 feet
Melee [one-action] jaws +7 [+2/-3], Damage 1d8+4 piercing
Reef Rake [one-action] Requirements The shark's last action was a successful jaws Strike, and the target is adjacent to a solid surface like a wall or reef; Effect The shark attempts an Athletics check to Reposition the target into the adjacent surface. If successful, the target is thrown into the surface and takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage. If the surface is jagged (such as a reef), target instead takes 2d6 slashing damage and 1 persistent bleed damage.

Suppose I had planned for a 2nd-level party to wade across the Dead River and be attacked by three 1st-level Skeletal Sharks. That would be a Moderate-Threat (90 xp) challenge. But 2nd-level Bloody Skeletal Sharks are stronger, so only two of them would be a Moderate Threat (80 xp) challenge.

Regarding the original question, isn't there an easy compromise?

If all magic comes from five gods, but Pathfinder ships with four magical traditions, why not work with that?

Basically, all magic traditions map to one of these gods, except divine which maps to two of them, the holy and unholy one. Wizards are actually tapping into magic from the nerdiest of the gods. Bards get theirs from the spooky one. Druids draw on the power of the god of nature. Clerics side with one of the two holy/unholy gods, while oracles get a bit from both which is why their magic is a bit messy but usually not sanctified.

I have a hypothesis, because of the quote below, that MartinTheActor has a setting in which each spell is supported by exactly one god. Whenever a god is severed from the world, no-one can cast the spell again.

Yeah, sorry Squiggit but that's just not true. Sure, you can very easily plug and play a very basic and generic fantasy world in when playing PF2e. However, in the adventure setting I mentioned earlier the whole aim was to prevent the antagonist group from severing the connections between the mortal realm and the gods. If the antagonists succeeded they'd sever the magic that said deities granted to the mortal realm. That kind of adventure meant sorting spell lists quite easily into the domain of one of 5 deities. Now in other systems that was relatively easy (yes even D&D 5e). In PF2e it's simply not because of the overlap in traditions. You'll note that many spells draw from more than one tradition.

That is a very cool plot. The protagonists will be racing against at ticking clock and see some of their own spellcasting abilities disappear whenever they fail. Perhaps the story starts with legends of spells that once existed, provided by a long-lost god.

However, assigning a spell tradition to each god won't work. First, since different spellcasters pull from different traditions, it will disproportionally hurt the druid when primal spells disappear but not affect the arcane-casting wizard at all. The best plot would have each spellcaster lose a few of their spells but not all of them. Second, as MartinTheActor mentioned, most spells belong to several traditions. If the primal god disappears, then spells with both primal and arcane traditions and both primal and divine traditions would still be around. If MartinTheActor let his druids still cast those spells, then people would barely notice if just the primal tradition disappeared.

Instead, QuidEst's idea would work much better.

- Traits. This one is definitely more geared towards Archives of Nethys, but there are plenty of useful traits. Got a god that covers life and death? Void, vitality, Healing, and Death trait spells can all be quickly handed over to them. Because you can build out the query, you can even get a URL at the end of your work that allows you to link each deity's complete spell list if you build them out of traits! It's unlikely to cover everything perfectly, but it's a useful option to have.

Here is a list of common Remastered 1st-rank spells from A to C with their traditions and traits, leaving off Attack, Aura, Concentrate, Incapacitation, and Manipulate.

The setting could have a god of words in charge of auditory, linguistic, mental, and sonic spells; a god of the forest in charge of acid, fire, plant, and wood spells; a god of clouds and mountains in charge of air, cold, earth, electricity, and metal spells; a god of the endless in charge of curse, detection, prediction, vital, void, and NONE spells; etc. Though I left off Attack and Aura, since they are more about targeting than about the nature of the spell, a god of war could be in charge of attack spells and a god of presence could be in charge of aura spells. These categories are mostly separate; nevertheless, assigning gods to the spell traits would be a lot of groundwork.

This isn't a good example. All stories are linear in the end. But an adventure where the players can decide "we're going the other way" is nonlinear in nature: the plot itself isn't set out to unfold a certain way and the players are effectively writing it along with the GM as they go.

APs do not work that way, by their nature. Strength of Thousands has multiple points where the AP flat out says "if your players decide to do this, it's outside the scope of the adventure." The AP requires events to unfold a certain way in order to run it.

I would have ignored warning signs regardless, because my players asked me in advance to alter the style of Strength of Thousands. They wanted to emphasize that their characters were students rather than adventurers. This occasionally caused them to clash with the assumptions in the modules, mostly the assumption that they would heedlessly dive into a challenge. Instead, my players think about student responsibilities: Common Sense Versus The Plot.

The 2nd module, Spoken on the Song Wind, does have instances of the module shooting down common sense. When the PCs are assigned to chase down petty criminals robbing street musicians, if the players ask why the local Chime-Ringers police are not handing this, their instructor answers, "For now, it’s typical politics: the attackers aren’t targeting anyone with clout and no one’s gotten killed, so the Chime-Ringers have higher priorities. They might have some reports to shed some light on this, even if they haven’t acted yet.” In contrast, later the PCs are assigned to arrest one of the major crime bosses of the city and the instructor has the opposite excuse, "The Chime‐Ringers are too busy chasing petty criminals, like some of the ones you’ve encountered. They refuse to see the grander story unfolding behind their backs." I resolved this issue in advance by deputizing the PCs as official law enforcement and creating a Chime-Ringer partner for them: Virgil Tibbs, Playtest Runesmith.

I am an experienced GM with extra time in my retirement, so my players can bend an adventure path in a new direction and I will simply invent new material until they overlap the pre-written path again. I suspect the same skills are necessary in a campaign entirely created by the GM, because the PCs can still chose a direction different from the GM's plans.

I have found Paizo's modules to be well written. However, my experience with other companies' modules was mostly from when I was a player rather than a GM. The big exception was Battlezoo's Jewel of the Indigo Isles, which felt much like a Paizo adventure path but more whimsical. When I read old D&D modules--my wife has a collection--they often are a dungeon crawl with no story. I ran two: one as is, and one converted into a PF1 filler session for my wife's Rise of the Runelords campaign when she was out of town.

A Pathfinder 1st Edition game I played at the Family Game Store in Savage, Maryland, was adapted from a published fantasy novel by the GM. I sometimes saw him pull out the novel as a reference, but I never caught the author or title. The novel provided the setting. He used the standard PF1 magic system rather than rewriting the magic rules to fit the novel. The plot, alas, was terribly fragile, because we players did not make the same decisions as the characters in the novel. We had times when the plot stalled, so I or another player had to push forward on our character's own agenda until the game moved into territory where the novel provided guidance again.

Rebuilding Pathfinder's magic system to fit another setting's magic would be like rebuilding the combat system to fit Frank Herbert's Dune series. That series is science fiction, but people fight with swords because they have personal force fields that stop fast-moving projectiles but not slow-moving pointy objects. You would be dumping a lot of rulebook content and replacing it with homebrew. You might as well switch to another roleplaying system that is designed for versatility, such as GURPS. Furthermore, the easy encounter building of PF2 comes from balance, but homebrew takes a lot of work to achieve the same precision of balance. Instead, the easy solution would be to keep Pathfinder's magic, but adjust some cosmetic details to increase the resemblance to the setting's magic. Pathfinder in the Harry Potter universe will have all spellcasters waving wands as they cast spells, but the spells would be the spells from Player Core.

Thus, let's assume that the homebrew campaign keeps the same rules but has different continents, species, cultures, and deities.

Eternarii has just five deities. Okay, clerics have the divine spell list and focus spells based on their god's domains, so pick the domains for those five gods.

The heavy overlap between the four spell traditions, arcane, divine, primal, and occult, does clashes with the magic of your setting. Then drop two and keep the opposites: arcane versus divine or primal versus occult. Opposites are defined by the Four Essences. That would reduce overlap. Forbid the character classes that use the excluded spell traditions or switch them to other traditions.

Want to keep clerics without actual deities? Simply give them religions--and those religions can be philosophies without gods--and their power comes from their spiritual devotion to their faith. A cleric without any religion would be more difficult to homebrew.

I'd absolutely love to run Pathfinder 2e for some of my players, but a big part of my enjoyment is building the worlds and adventures. This is part of how I make the adventure feel unique and interesting. If just really feels like Pathfinder isn't designed for GMs like me.

I run Paizo adventure paths to keep my campaigns more interesting. I am terrible at inventing villains and conflict. My homebrew villains are not sufficiently malicious.

On the other hand, my players love me customizing their adventures to their tastes. On some occasions I have had to rewrite half the content of a module because the party chose a different direction than the module intended. So I do a lot of world building inside Paizo's Golarion setting. For example, I am currently running Strength of Thousands, set at the Magaambya School of Magic. My players wanted to emphasize that their characters are students, so I invented classes and class field trips.

Mathmuse wrote:

But using Lore for Recall Knowledge gives a penalty to the DC rather than a bonus to the roll, and I think that that is why I keep forgetting it.

It wouldn't be hard to use the penalty to DC as a roll bonus instead if that's easier to recall.

EDIT: the only thing I can think it'd mess with would be Assurance: Lore.

And that is why I am talking to my players about a houserule.

The character Roshan has Automatic Knowledge, which does rely on Assurance, but she has Automatic Knowledge only for Nature and Society, not for Lore.

I already have three houserules on Recall Knowledge to encourage its use. I find combat more fun when the players know more details about the creatures they fight. For example, in a previous campaign they fought a Nuckelavee and succeeded at a Recall Knowledge check that revealed its Mortasheen disease spread by its melee attacks, including its sword attack. The party switched to a keep-away tactic. They did not succeed, because the nuckelavee is fast with Speed 40 feet, but I was entertained watching them adapt. In the current campaign, they prefer to negotiate rather than fight, so they rely on Recall Knowledge to find a common language.

Mathmuse wrote:

The weakness in the Archives of Nethys DCs for identifying creatures is that they are based solely on level with no consideration for the creature being familiar, common, uncommon, or never before seen

Wait, really? They don't include the Rarity in the AoN DCs? That's really unhelpful if true. EDIT: It does not appear to be true, or at least not universally so (I have only checked one example): The Tarrasque correctly gives the DC for a Unique level 25 of 60 (it would be 50 without the +10 Rarity modifier).

I was wrong. I performed a survey of the 5th-level creatures in Archives of Nethys and the common creatures had DC 20, the uncommon had DC 22, the rare had DC 25, and the unique had DC 30. Oddly, the unique creatures were often a single individual NPC with a name, so Ban-Niang "Granny" Hu, female human guard captain 5, with DC 30 is a lot harder to identify than Unsanctioned Sheriff with DC 20. Thus, making an NPC a named individual rather than an example of a profession makes them harder to recognize.

I was mostly thinking about the difference between the common creatures that everyone would recognize, such as Moose, versus the common creatures that seen much more obscure, such as Flynkett. On the other hand, maybe little children on Golarion learn about obscure common creatures, such as reading from an ABC book with F for Flynkett.

Captain Morgan wrote:

AoN is generally great, yes, but it has created this false understanding of how knowledgeable DCs (and even relevant skills) work. As Hammerjack pointed out at the beginning.

I do not understand - in what way?

Take the Moose as an example. It has big antlers on its head, so an antler attack and the related Thundering Charge ability should be obvious. That the moose is a good swimmer is less obvious, but most players won't ask about its athletic skill anyway. I expect that most players won't bother with Recall Knowledge to identify a moose. To balance the creature better, a low DC on Recall Knowledge would make a PCs as likely to apply Recall Knowledge to a moose ("Hey, it has a Kick Back, too! Watch out for its hind hooves.") as they would for a flynkett.

But the problem that made me talk to my players is that Lore skills are treated in a non-standard matter. Usually a DC is changed because of some feature of the target itself. For example, an Iblydan Hind is rare, so it should be harder to identify than a moose. A bandit is frightened 1, so his AC takes a -1 penalty. Those are features of the target. But when the feature is on the active character, such as wielding a +1 weapon, the character is given a bonus rather than the target taking a penalty. But using Lore for Recall Knowledge gives a penalty to the DC rather than a bonus to the roll, and I think that that is why I keep forgetting it.

AoN is great as a reference, but I think the books work better for seeing the overall structure of the rules. With AoN you can dive right to the part you're looking for, but you might miss the stuff a little further around it that you should also know exists.

I typically provide links to Archives of Nethys when I post here in the Paizo forums, so that the readers can look up details. However, when we have an in-depth discussion about how rules interact and why certain rules were created, I will open the rulebooks themselves and read more than the isolated entries in Archives of Nethys. And strangely, I have an example of this triggered by this thread.

When I read HammerJack's second post in this thread on Wednesday, in which he mentioned the lower DC's for Specific Lore and Unspecific Lore, I realized I had forgotten that rule in my game session Tuesday evening. Let me quote what I posted in Discord to my players immediately afterwards. I erased real names and identified people by their characters and me as GM.

GM — 9/17/25, 7:25 PM

Your crazy GM is considering another houserule.

I read a new Paizo forum thread today, "Please Add Monster Knowledge DCs," at https://paizo.com/threads/rzs7143j?Please-Add-Monster-Knowledge-DCs#1. Original poster Harles is disappointed that the Monster Core rulebook does not have the DCs for Recall Knowledge to identify https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2367&Redirected=1. The Archives of Nethys has the DCs, but those are simply the DC by Level (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2629) for the monster's level. The Archives also give a DC for Unspecific Lore and for Specific Lore, calculated as the other DC -2 and -5 respectively.

I forgot about this when Jinx's player asked Cara about using Mwangi Expanse Lore to identify the Rompo ([rul="https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1440"]https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1440[/url]). Archives of Nethys says about the 5th-level Rompo.
Recall Knowledge - Beast (Arcana, Nature): DC 20
Unspecific Lore: DC 18
Specific Lore: DC 15
Since the Rompo is a creature native to the Mwangi Expanse, it can be identified with Mwangi Expanse as an Unspecific Lore DC 18. A specific lore would be Beast Lore DC 15.

Cara'sseth has Arcana +18, Mwangi Expanse Lore +14, and Nature +10. Under my current houserule that Recall Knowledge is not secret (because you players are so good about roleplaying failure appropriately) I told Cara to roll on either Arcana or Nature, and suggested Mwangi Expanse lore as an alternative. Since Cara has the highest bonus on Arcana, she rolled that and got 21, enough for a success. Rolling the same natural 3 for Mwangi Expanse Lore would have given 17 versus DC 18, a failure.

But having the lore and the rules not letting the PC take good advantage of it is not fun. And I forgot about the variable DC and will forget again. Thus, I want a more manageable rule for Recall Knowledge with Lore. What do you think of the following possibilities? The DC stays unchanges, such as a always DC 20 for the Rompo. ... <skipping houserule suggestions>

In inventing potential houserules, I read about Recall Knowledge in the Player Core and about Recall Knowledge in the GM Core. Lots of different rules, such as the Additional Knowledge rule mix together for the Recall Knowledge experience. And I have my own goals, such as enabling fun tactics while not cluttering the challenge with too many details. Rulebooks are better sources for synergistic thinking.

The weakness in the Archives of Nethys DCs for identifying creatures is that they are based solely on level with no consideration for the creature being familiar, common, uncommon, or never before seen. On the other hand, when I pull a creature out of Lost Omens The Mwangi Expanse or other source material, I don't know how well-known that creature is, either, beyond it not being marked Uncommon, Rare, or Unique. I just figured that the area near a limnic-eruption lake would favor corpse-eating scavengers.

In case you were wondering about the encounter with the rompo, it was a simple night encounter while the party was camped for the night along a road through the Mwangi Expanse and two party members Cara and Zandre stood watch. Cara was wondering whether the rompo spoke a language she knew, like the Blink Dogs they had encountered the previous day (they befriended the Blink Dogs instead of fighting them). Cara also sent their champion's elephant bird mount to safety with Command Animal. Zandre used Demoralize on the rompo and also woke up the others. The bard Stargazer awoke and began Courageous Anthem. The frightened rompo used Crooning Cry, but Stargazer used Counter Performance to neutralize the Crooning Cry. That further scared the rompo and it fled.

I am interested in some of those gods myself because they are relevant in the Strength of Thousands adventure path. In yesterday's game session, the party met Kolnoku, described as "a middle-aged dwarf who leans on a stone cane and wears a religious symbol of Uvuko, the Mwangi deity of metamorphosis and growth." That was the first time I heard of Uvuko (The Diamond Ring), and the imagery of that god fits into the current subplot of Hurricane's Howl concerning cloud dragons. And Chohar and the Old Sun Gods will be relevant in the next module.

As for the extraplanar domain of gods, I ran into that issue myself at the end of my Ironfang Invasion campaign when we added two new gods to my campaign world: The Fangwood Pantheon. That campaign ended in August 2023, when we knew that Pathfinder was going to drop alignments but before Lost Omens Divine Mysteries was published, so I guessed the changes to the dieties' entries. I dropped the alignments of the god and their followers and added an Afterlife entry. Then I had to figure out which Outer Planar Realm would serve as that god's afterlife.

The nine alignments corresponded to the nine Outer Planes. Abaddon was neutral evil, Abyss was chaotic evil, Axis was lawful neutral, Boneyard was double neutral, Elysium was chaotic good, Heaven was lawful good, Hell was lawful evil, Maelstrom was chaotic neutral, and Nirvana was neutral good. Thus, before the Remaster, the default home plane of a god was the one corresponding to the god's alignment.

When I set up the Fangwood Pantheon, Gendowyn, Lady of Fangwood, was an existing god with CN alignment, representing the caprice of the fey. But she is also a nature god and the wild forests of Elysium seemed more appropriate for her woodland fey followers than the seething liquid void of the Maelstrom. Gendowyn herself dwells in the Fangwood Forest on Golarion rather than on an Outer Plane.

The goddess Argwyn was set up as an adversary of Gendowyn, but my player characters made peace with her. Maelstrom fit her as a goddess of darkness and decay. She used to have a pocket realm that was an extension of the transitional Plane of Shadow (renamed The Netherworld in the Remaster), but that pocket collapsed when she left. Argwyn as written in Vault of the Onyx Citadel had lived on the First World, but I had rewritten her origin as being a Reflection formed from Gendowyn's shadow. Now, like Gendowyn, she stays in the Fangwood, preferring the shadowy parts.

The goddess Honey was a player character, a leshy sorceress of fey bloodline and a bloodthirsty streak in combat, who ascended to godhood as the goddess of familiars. My campaigns get weird, and worshiping Honey has been popular among leshy characters in my following campaigns. I let the player chose Honey's afterlife and she chose that her worshipers may accompany a leader or follower to any afterlife. As a very young god, Honey is traveling the world rather than setting up a home in the Outer Planes.

The only mention of Uvuko in Hurricane's Howl is Kolnoku's holy symbol. Nevertheless, Uvuko might relate to the nearby ruins of Bloodsalt.

Pathfinderwiki's entry on Uvuko has their alignment as CG. It references a Paizo Blog article Gods of the Expanse that says, "Apsu, god of good dragons, saw how his son Dahak once tried to burn down the entirety of the Mwangi Expanse and took it upon himself to defend the skies that rest over those that put a stop to Dahak’s destruction. Uvoko, the diamond ring, is a living embodiment of the Mwangi skies and valued Apsu’s aid." That article also has a few words on the Old Sun Gods. The article also points to the full page on Uvuko on page 142 of Lost Omens The Mwangi Expanse.

I see three possibilities for the home plane of Uvuko. As a chaotic good god, their default plane would be Elysium. As a god of the sky, Uvuko would be most comfortable on the Plane of Air. And the dragon god Apsu created a demiplane Immortal Ambulatory as a home for dragon gods.

Come to think of it, does PF2/PF2R have rules for buying/renting properties, cost of living, building/maintaining infrastructures, etc?

Some of that, such as Food and Lodging, can be found in the Player Core in the Equipment chapter under Services, pages 294-295. Lost Omens Travel Guide has more details on buying housing in the Everyday Life chapter, page 17:

Urban housing on page 21 adds, "Renting an apartment typically runs one-fourth of the cost for renting a home."

I don't see anything about maintaining infrastructure.

The other two tables in Lost Omens Travel Guide are TABLE 3: ANIMAL PRICES and TABLE 4: ANIMAL CARETAKING GEAR PRICES in the Nature & Animals chapter.

Skeld wrote:

Now that i think about it, we really need a hardcover "Infrastructure of Golarion."

Follow that up a few months later with "Taxcodes of Golarion."

Now that you mention it, Civil society of Golarion (which would include both of these) could be a genuinely good book.

The Lost Omens Travel Guide has some of this information. The chapter headings are Introduction, Time & the Calendar, Everyday Life, Festivals & Hoildays, Trade, Cuisine, Fashion, Art & Architecture, Pastimes, Crime & Law, What People Know, Magic, Folklore & Mythology, Religion, Nature & Animals, Weather & Climate, Rare Events, The Stars, and Glossary & Index.

While I adore the notion of a Civil Society of Golarion there's a significant hurdle; there's no baseline society. So it'd be societies, which would in turn become an enormous tome on par with a world guide.

Hence, this was a travel guide, on par with a world guide.

For an example of using the Lost Omens Travel Guide my Strength of Thousands party chased criminals. They captured those criminals alive and turned them over to the Nantambu authorities. I added scenes of the criminals' trials with the PCs serving as witnesses. I looked up culturally appropriate sentences in the Crime & Law chapter of the Travel Guide. Page 64 has a table of Common Crimes and Punishments, such as Robbery: Twenty lashes and/or 1 to 5 years hard labor, and Worship of Banned Gods: 2 to 8 years hard labor and/or a fine equal to 20% of the character’s wealth.

My wife suggested that maybe the strix have a cultural taboo against flying when traveling with non-fliers. The strix PC really can fly, but feel so strongly against it that they won't do it to save their lives. Later, when their wizard teammate can cast Levitate, they relax about not flying, but still avoid showing off.

Now that i think about it, we really need a hardcover "Infrastructure of Golarion."

Follow that up a few months later with "Taxcodes of Golarion."

-Skeld

In a Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 game about 20 years ago, I filled out an extended character sheet for my elf archer cleric Glitter that had a line for "Hates." I wrote "Tax Collectors," because I had not fleshed out the character yet and had a silly streak. Many game sessions later, the party had cleared out trolls from an abandoned keep, the local duchy had awarded the keep to us if we would help defend the border, and an encampment of refugees settled around the keep while we were off on an adventure. The party realized we needed a formal government. And because of what I had written on my character sheet, the other players put Glitter in charge of taxes.

By then I had filled in Glitter's backstory. His father was a artisan in gold and silver, which is why he named his son Glitter. The local human authorities assumed that since the goldsmith shop had gold in supply, the shop must be rich. They taxed the business too heavily. The father lost the shop, with the father developing a hate of tax collectors that he passed on to his son. The elf family moved into a traveling caravan, because the father figured that settling down again would leave him vulnerable to idiot authorities again.

Glitter developed a labor tax. Everyone had to contribute a month of labor each year to the new town. This was especially needed because the town was still being built, though less hardy people were assigned less demanding labor than construction, such as cooking, cleaning, or paperwork. A citizen could hire someone else to serve their month of labor. No-one was going to have their property confiscated under Glitter's watch.

This story has an infrastructure element, too. In repairing the keep (before the refugees appeared), Glitter used Stone Shape to rebuild walls and summoned creatures that could burrow through stone to create an underground tunnel that brought in water from a clean mountain stream. The keep already had a sewer outlet with an iron gate, because the party had used that to enter the keep when it was held by trolls.

These days I run the Strength of Thousands adventure path. Its first two modules are set at the Magaambya School of Magic in Nantambu. The Magaambya has a service-based relationship with the city: no taxes on the school in exchange for the services such as civil defense and major infrastructure repairs. Nantambu has a series of canals for internal transport, and the PCs once had the assignment of repairing a damaged canal wall. They also had to clean out sewers and chase down criminals.

The Magaambyan emphasis on service is the source of Nantambu’s strength, with the resident mages ensuring that no invading force has ever managed to come within 20 miles of the city. This protection extends to neighboring villages as well, and despite no formal agreements of fealty, more than a hundred such settlements gladly and gratefully pay tribute to the city.

Beginning in October 2019 I converted the Ironfang Invasion adventure path to PF2 rules. That adventure path is about a war in which the Ironfang Legion invaded southwestern Nirmathas. The adventure path itself started with mostly CR 1/2 Hobgoblin Recruits plus a few CR 1 Hobgoblin Grenadiers and CR 2 Hobgoblin Heavy Troopers on the Ironfang side, but as the PCs leveled up so did the hobgoblins, such as patrols of CR 2 Ironfang Forest Prowlers at the beginning of the 2nd module.

I replaced the CR 1/2 Hobgoblin Recruits with Hobgoblin Soldiers, creature 1, and ported over the Hobgoblin Heavy Troopers was 2nd-level Hobgoblin Soliders with heavy armor. But after porting over the Ironfang Forest Prowlers, I got annoyed at never seeing the basic Hobgoblin Soldier, the mainstay of the Ironfang Legion, again. So I grouped 4 Hobgoblin Soldiers together at a Large 5th-level Hobgoblin Troop unit. This was before Paizo published its first PF2 troops in Pathfinder Bestiary 3, so I developed my own troop rules.

The biggest battle in Ironfang Invasion was the assault of the Nirmathi city of Longshadow in the 3rd module, Assault on Longshadow. The module set it up as a series of vignettes where the 9th-level PCs handle a few difficult raids or ploys and then rest and recuperate while the city defense forces would deal with the most of the enemy army. I rejected that, because my players were more hands-on than that, and individual fights would have been easy for the party. Instead, I had one continuous battle that had the PCs constantly busy and each player also handled a troop unit of Longshadow Archers. The Ironfang Legion's army mostly consisted of 9th-level 16-soldier Ironfang Formations. This is similar to the advice on page 115 of Battlecry!

The new rules presented in this section, which starts on page 158, show GMs and players how to run these skirmish encounters, with each PC taking control of a troop—a group of allied creatures working as one that’s represented by a single creature stat block. In effect, that PC becomes a member of that troop, moving with them across the battlefield as a unit. This gives the character the freedom to move within the spaces occupied by the troop, but makes them a target, as a troop without a leader has a chance to be routed, fleeing the scene as their morale breaks.

However, I kept the PC as a separate character from the Longshadow Archer troop the player commanded, but the PC token had to remain within earshot of the archers in order to give orders. The archers were not minions, so they had their full three actions per turn.

I had around 20 Hobgoblin Formations attacking Longshadow, along with a few Minotaur Troops and Goblin Wolfrider troops and their leaders, such as Brigadier General Kosseruk. The defenders of Longshadow were the seven 9th-level PCs, their seven 8th-level Longshadow Archer troops, and about five powerful NPCs, such as a local wizard they had recruited. They fought from the protection of the city walls; for example, the Longshadow Archers would typically Strike twice with their longbow attack (my troop design used Strikes, unlike Paizo's design) and then Take Cover behind the wall's battlements.

I ran into two problems with this plan. First, each 6-second turn took 1 hour real time to play. Second, the party was spread across three city walls, so they could not communicate with each other. I invented an impossibly fast messenger, Amelia, to keep them in touch. I later explained Amelia as a time oracle.

Long time player. How would you do a Legion of troups?? say 5000 orcs. so 1000 sargent orcs, 200 lietenant, 40 Captians, 8 majors, one General. for a total of 6241 segments ( indivduañ troups)... would that work?? for Path2e? I think it could.

I had intended for the assault on Longshadow to have 1000 soldiers in about 60 Hobgoblin Formation troops, but the PCs destroyed the magic portal through which the Ironfang troops were arriving when only 20 troops (320 soldiers) had passed through. I calculated that the entire Ironfang Legion would have at most 10,000 people in it and some would be support rather than soldiers. Furthermore, fantasy worlds have much small cities and armies than the matching history on Earth, at most one tenth the size. This is a cinematic convention, because fewer people makes the heroes look more impressive.

the leitenants would also have to be signalers with war flags for the various moves. would appreciate an answer to would this work? question.

The GM Core section on Basics of Ability Design says, "Avoid 'invisible' abilities." In this case, invisible means not visible to the players rather than turning invisible by magic. For example, an enemy based on a ranger, such as Hobgoblin Archer, never has to Hunt Prey, the iconic ability of rangers. That is because the players can't observe the Hunt Prey activity. It looks exactly like the ranger standing still for one action. The players need to see what their enemies are doing partly to keep them interested and partly so that the players can invent tactics against them.

Thus, if the enemy army is relying on signalers with war flags for various moves, the players need to clearly see the signalers waving the war flags. The PCs make Society or Warfare Lore skill checks as a single action to read the signals themselves. My very tactical players would try to take out the signalers to send the troops into disarray. As for the lieutenants themselves, make them a Commander-like creature of the same level as each troop they command, because we don't want them too easy to kill. Given them a few Commander Mobility and Offensive Tactics from the list on pages 25 to 27 in Battlecry! Save the Expert and Master tactics for the generals.

Mathmuse wrote:

I am in the "Tell Them What You Are Going to Say, Tell Them, Tell Them What You Said" camp (How to Open a Presentation: Tell 'Em What You're Going to Say) of giving presentations. I used to lecture on mathematics, mostly algebra and calculus, and the tough material needed repetition to stick in the students' minds.

Is that still the best delivery method when you're doing a panel at a convention, rather than teaching students? Honest question. I would think people who signed up for your panel would be more engaged and they aren't going to be quizzed later.

I asked my housemate, who has served on a panel at a science fiction convention. He said that for a lecture the Tell-Them-Three-Times method works. But a panel means multiple people giving their presentations and they have to give each other their turns.

Zoken44 said they were hosting a panel, which means that they coordinate the panel. I have seen many panels at science fiction conventions. Typically the host introduces each panel member and then provides an initial question for the panel members to respond to, possibly giving a response themself after everyone else has had a chance to respond or pass. Examples of opening question would be, "What was your experience in transferring from Dungeons & Dragons to Pathfinder?" or "What surprised you most about Pathfinder 2nd Edition?" For leading with a list of topics, I would ask, "What do you think is a significant difference between Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder 2nd Edition?"

Eventually, a panel will switch to taking questions from the audience, which is too unpredictable for planned responses.

I am in the "Tell Them What You Are Going to Say, Tell Them, Tell Them What You Said" camp (How to Open a Presentation: Tell 'Em What You're Going to Say) of giving presentations. I used to lecture on mathematics, mostly algebra and calculus, and the tough material needed repetition to stick in the students' minds.

The Tell Them What You Are Going to Say would be an overview of the big differences: the three action system, the four degrees of success, the tight math, and the classes and archetypes. This would be a list, especially if you have a chart, a Powerpoint slide deck, or a handout, with you reciting only one sentence to define each item in the list.

Then in the main body of tells about each topic in practical detail. For example, the Three Action System topic would have that all three action in a turn are the same, except for the free actions and reactions. Explain--as you did above--about the Multiple Attack Penalty and that most spells take two actions to cast.

The Four Degrees of Success would have an example of a basic Reflex save: no damage, half damage, full damage, double damage--with non-damage spells often having a one-turn effect on a successful saving throw so that spells are seldom totally resisted.

The Tight Math topic would be that Pathfinder 2nd Edition uses bonuses and penalties rather than advantage and disadvantage, but it tries stop the numbers from accumulating. Bonuses are down to proficiency bonus from level and training, item bonus from magic items, status bonus from spells, and circumstance bonus from actions. And most penalties are from Conditions with standard rules, such as Frightened or Off-Guard.

For Classes, talk about the classes that D&D and Pathfinder have in common and the classes unique to Pathfinder. Use this opportunity to tell, as others suggested, that martial characters are more interesting in Pathfinder. Describe that multiclassing works differently: each character gets a class feat at each even level and can chose to take an archetype feat instead, such as Beastmaster, Medic, or Sorcerer Multiclass.

Finally, for the Tell Them What You Said put all these topics together. Talk about how surprised many D&D players are that Pathfinder 2nd Edition is very tactical. The GM can predict the power of a party due to the Tight Math and create a challenging encounter that needs tactics to win. Fortunately, the party can use Three-Action System for single-action teamwork such as Stepping into flanking position or Point Out an invisible enemy or Demoralize to Frighten an enemy or Trip to make an enemy waste an action Standing up, and still have two remaining actions for dealing damage. Many classes, such as bards and champions, have unique single-action abilities or reactions to aid their allies.

My PF1 Iron Gods campaign had a strix skald Kirii who could fly at 1st level. Flying is a strong ability, so strix's attribute boosts were a weak +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma (his is on the 3d6 scale, so it would be +1 Dex, -1 Cha in PF2 Remastered notation). Furthermore, if the GM objected to to 1st-level flight, then they could insist on the Wing-Clipped alternative racial trait to cripple the strix's flying ability.

I had no trouble in my campaign with Kirii being able to fly. Her speed of 60 feet (equivalent to 50 feet in PF2's three-action system) while flying was more impactful, because she could scout and charge into battle more quickly than most characters. She also regularly exploited the Death from Above feat, but in PF1 exploiting feats is gameplay as expected. When the party recruited the NPC Val Baine into the party, I made Val a bloodrager with air elemental bloodline because that bloodline gained flight at 8th level, as opposed to 12th level for the Celestial, Draconic, and Phoenix bloodlines. I thought Val joining Kirii in the air would be fun.

PF2 is a different system devoted to careful balance of abilities. Low stats do not evenly balance against flying ability. Instead, the low stats would be especially weak sometimes and the flying ability would be especially strong other times, giving less predictability than the PF2 developers wanted. The level-based delay on flying ability is a purely mechanical restriction to preserve that sacred balance. And PF2 strix have a Fly speed of 25 feet (35 feet with a second Fully Flighted feat) rather than 50 feet.

Still, the explaining the difference between 2nd-level flying Strix Kinmate and PC non-flying strix ancestry in creative world-building is a worthy goal.

The Strix have a interesting naming conventons for the Flight feats: Fledgeling, Juvenile, Full. Which made me think that maybe they used to measure biological development and thus age by the flight ability? Remnants of that era are propably still in some ancient laws and all over the Strix language. Even if they are more accomodating now and changed the social norms and village designs to accomodate non-fliers, it would still set adventurers apart during their formative years.

That naming convention for the strix flight chain of feats, 1st-level Fledgling Flight, 5th-level Juvenile Flight, and 9th-level Fully Flighted, sketches a brief explanation. Kirii's player researched strix to the point of reading Liane Merciel's novel Nightglass, which includes events among the strix at Devil's Perch. She learned that strix have short lifespans, so she made Kirii only 17 years old (and named Kirii after a character in the novel). Thus, we could argue that strix start adventuring at a young age before they mastered flight. The 2nd-level Strix Kinmates could be older strix who stayed with the tribe; thus, they had time to master flight but not the experience to rise above 2nd level.

This would be more believable if the 2nd-level Strix Kinmates had the equivalent of 5th-level Juvenile Flight rather than 9th-level Fully Flighted. The Strix Kinmates came from pre-Remaster Bestiary 3, published in April 2021. The Strix ancestry came from the pre-Remaster Ancestry Guide, published in February 2021, so possibly the writers of the two sources did not see what the other was doing. This could be resolved by releasing a Remastered version of Strix Kinmate that has only Juvenile Flight, perhaps along with a 7th-level Strix Wingmaster with Fully Flighted.

Is there a specific rule that states that the level number is for their potential combat stats? I always understood it to be a means of estimating their non-combat skill abilities (where appropriate; a level 8 soldier is probably pretty capable in combat). An 18th-level baker would likely be renowned across the planes for their high level of skill, for example.

I also recall it being said that the combat stats are divorced from their non-combat stats. For example, said baker might only pose as a 5th-level threat to an adventuring party when they leave an undeserved scathing review.

The level number on an NPC is their combat level. A lot of NPC stat blocks have an extra line about their non-combat level. For example, the 3rd-level Smith says, "Smithing Specialist For encounters involving smithing or other crafting tasks, the smith is a 6th-level challenge." If the party fights raiders alongside the smith, treat the smith as level 3. If the party wants to commission a 5th-level item from the smith, treat him as level 6.

This stat block showed up in my campaign, because Spoken in the Song Wind features NPC Goana (LG female halfling woodcarver 3) on page 52. But on the next page, it says, "If you need statistics for Goana, use those of a halfling smith (Gamemastery Guide 204, 245). I swapped out the smith's light hammer for a woodcarver's carving knife.

The smith has 50 hp, which according to GM CoreTable 2–7: Hit Points would be high for a 3rd-level monster, but really that smith is a 6th-level character with little combat experience, so the smith is tough against damage but weak at dishing out damage.

An 18th-level baker that would be only a 5th-level threat in combat would be called "baker 5." A character actually called "baker 18" would be either a retired adventurer who took up baking, a hidden god of baking, or an eccentric baker who invented a very effective combat pie throw.

The profession, such as "shipwright" is for roleplaying and the level, such as "4," is the character's level for combat and DCs. NPCs often have higher skill bonuses and skill feats than their level indicates, but if they are forced into a fight, the level will determine their AC, attack bonus, saving throws, and hit points.

I don't know which module Birger Frodeson (shipwright 4) is from, but imagine the party is doing a Gather Information diplomacy activity in a port town and the GM wants to roleplay a conversation rather than simply narrate a fact. The GM says, "You encounter a middled-aged human in well-kept worksman clothes. He introduces himself as Birger Frodeson." The description "shipwright 4" is enough to tell that he is a craftsman rather than a laborer and level 4 means that he would reasonably prosperous. If asked about the docks, he would know about the ships, because he is interested in the different designs of ships and has performed repairs on some of them, but not much about their crew or cargo.

And then sometimes, the GM needs to know more. Perhaps the PC talking with Birger Frodeson makes a Request of him. Knowing that Frodeson is 4th level, the GM looks at the DCs By Level Table and sees that the default DC for 4th level is DC 19. Thus, the PC has to roll a DC 19 Diplomacy check to persuade Birger Frodeson to follow the request.

And on rare occasions, the unstatted NPC will need a stat block. The PCs persuade Birger Frodeson to lead them to the ship Jolly Folly, but unknown to him it is a pirate ship in disguise, the party figures this out, and poor Frodeson is caught in a fight. Then the GM opens his copy of NPC Core or goes to the Archives of Nethys NPC Creature Families page and tries to find an NPC similiar to a 4th-level shipwright. The Artisans family has a Smith 3, and the Elite template quickly converts that to Elite Smith 4. Now Birger Frodeson can defend himself with smith abilities.

Finally, crazy GMs like me will sometimes decide to promote an unstatted NPC into a recurring ally of the party and build an custom stat block for him. I would look at the stat blocks of several similar NPCs and combine them into a 4th-level NPC with strong skills in ship building and repair.

The line "Birger Frodeson (shipwright 4)" is telling the GM that they probably won't need any details about this character, but if they do, here is a starting point.

One other possibility is that multiple authors could better divide their areas of expertise.

The 5th module of the Ironfang Invasion adventure path had a weird gap in its story. The module began in the dwarven Sky-Citadel of Kraggodan, where the PCs had ended the previous module. Their dwarven ally Karburtin Lightbrand persuades them to run an errand for Kraggodan to go to the Blighted Region deep in the Fangwood in order to discover the fate of the missing goddess Gendowyn, Lady of Fangwood. After 2 pages of establishing this plot hook, the scene jumps 75 miles north to deep in the Fangwood. My players objected to that, because that 75 miles would be heading through territory conquered by the Ironfang Legion and they wanted to fight the legion on the way north. So I wrote new material for that journey.

Perhaps author Amanda Hamon Kunz skipped that journey to reduce the page count. Or maybe she skipped it because she would have had to review the first three modules and the overall invasion plan in order to write material that fits the main theme of the adventure path but would be only a side theme to Prisoners of the Blight.

With multiple authors writing simultaneously on the same book, we could have had one of the earlier authors: Amber E. Scott, Ron Lundeen, Benjamin Bruck, or Thurston Hillman--write the journey through Ironfang territory while Amanda Hamon Kunz would focus on the Blight. The contributions of different authors do not have to be sequential; instead, they could specialize.

And page count would be easier, too. Currently, all three modules in an adventure path have the same length. But with all three in a single book, the length could vary. If the middle 2nd-module section needs to run long to tell its story well, cuts could come out of the 1st module or 3rd module rather than the 2nd module to fit the page count.

These days I tend toward the opposite extreme in party size: my Strength of Thousands campaign has seven players, including my wife and two adult daughters. Nevertheless, the party works with allies often.

And back in 2015 in my PF1 Iron Gods campaign I too started with 3 players. I asked the players to recruit a 4th party member from town. They chose Val Baine, and chose to keep her in the party despite finally recruiting a 4th player.

The main concern on my side is the encounter difficulty. If the 3rd-level 7-character party is joined by a 6th-level ally, how much enemy XP counts as a Moderate-Threat challenge? The math is that I add up the XP of each party member (7×40xp + 120xp = 400xp) and half of that, 200xp, in enemy XP is Moderate Threat. But with an equal-level 4-member party, that problem won't come up. I also sometimes nerf a higher-level ally by giving them restrictions ("I am going to stand back and give instructions and healing rather than participate directly") so that they operate a a lower-level.

However, rather than inventing a generic ally that has only five different actions, I create full character sheets for my allies. I have stats for dorm-mate Ignaci Canterells thaumaturge 2, dorm-mate Strands-of-Glowing-Dawn Tzeniwe investigator 2, dorm-mate Okoro Obiyo psychic 3, dorm-mate Esi Djana wizard 5, student I'boko sorcerer 5, student Muruwa leveled up to rogue 4, student Mkosa druid 5, groundspeeper Thema druid 5, teacher Takulu Ot raised to 6th level, glassblower Niana Ot artisan 3, teacher Nhyira druid 10, teacher Lesedi wizard 13, teacher Izem Mezitani sorcerer 14, and about the same number of allies of my own invention. (I'boko is from Hurricane's How and Muruwa is mentioned in Secrets of the Temple-City and began as a pregenerated 1st-level character in Threshold of Knowledge, a free PDF, along with Ekene monk 1, Kalaggi Nakutu fighter 1, Ufi cleric 1, and Zane Ikundi sorcerer 1. Mkosa is mentioned on page 138 of War of Immortals as a a nascent wildspell, so I statted them out for fun.

If you want stats for characters, ask me and give me three days to find two hours free in my schedule. The dorm-mates are the hardest to make, because I have to closely match their descriptions in the Students of the Magaambya article in Kindled Magic. My default for dorm-mates is 2nd level, but the Students of the Magaambya article gave some of them 2nd-level specialty spells, so those characters had to be 3rd level.

Some of the stats are already posted, such as Building Mkosa from War of Immortals. Ignaci showed up in River into Darkness Revisted. Esi and I'boko's 5th-level stat blocks grew out of a wizard-vs-sorcerer comparison in 4 years of PF 2: Wizards are weak, comment #469.

A risk with allowing the PCs to gain allies is that they could ask for allies when the module expects them to solo. I discuss such an event in Common Sense versus The Plot. That thread later became a discussion of how much the Magaambya is supposed to support the PCs and protect them from danger.

Both Pathfinder 1st Edition and Pathfinder 2nd Edition are good roleplaying systems, but they have different styles. PF1 is best for playing powerful characters. PF2 is best for using clever tactics. If you love the powerful characters--it really sounds like you do--then stick with PF1. Paizo wrote plenty of adventure paths and modules for PF1, so the material can last for many years of game sessions, despite Paizo not writing any more.

Currently, my wife and younger daughter are playing in both my PF2 Strength of Thousands campaign and another GM's PF1 Tyrant's Grasp campaign. They like both.

Thank you for your experiences. So if I summerize it, it'd be something along these lines:

• Free Archetypes are in general horizontal power, so in many cases they player have more options, but won't be outright better at what they do anyway
• be beware of the archetypes and options that do give more vertical power, like more HP due to multiclass resiliency feats or feats like acrobat dedication, which grants legendary acrobatics in the end
• having no restrictions on archetypes can encourage powergaming behavior ...

With tactical players, horizontal power, i.e.,having more tactical options but their numbers are not better, is as effective at winning combats as vertical power, i.e. better numbers. For example, if the players with piercing weapons find themselves battling skeletons that resist piercing and slashing damage, having a cantrip that deals acid damage is a winning alternative. For an example from my campaign, Roshan's rogue build specializes in debuffing a single strong opponent, because if she is faced with multiple weak opponents, she can switch to casting cone-shaped spells from her free archetype. Also, the spellcasters in my party stay at range and do not flank, but bard Jinx Fuun will send her bird animal companion from her druid free archetype to flank for the melee rogue and champion.

Nevertheless, horizontal power causes the players to invent clever tactics. That entertains me as a GM. Vertical power is less interesting to watch.

Did you let the Starlit Span Magus free archetype Psychic and take Imaginary weapon?

No, Zandre took the Dragon Disciple archetype. Her backstory is that her Ekujae elf village in the Mwangi Expanse was attacked by a dragon and Zandre decided to become a dragon hunter.

As a dragon disciple, you study and learn from the example of dragons, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you admire the dragons you emulate. While most dragon disciples do indeed revere their chosen dragon, countless tales are told of dragon disciples born of great personal tragedy at the hands of boundless draconic fury. These disciples have transformed themselves into what they despise in order to gain the power to destroy their draconic tormentor and at long last earn their revenge.

However, despite the possible anti-dragon theme the archetype is about becoming more like a dragon, which does not mix will with an archer magus.

Furthermore, though I offered more flexibility on the Strength of Thousands Player's Guide recommendation of Druid Multiclass or Wizard Multiclass archetypes, I insisted that their free archetypes had to do something with arcane or primal magic. Dragon Disciple barely qualified because of the arcane spells granted by Dragon Arcana feat 4. It was one of the most martial options, and I suspect that that is why Zandre's player chose it. Psychic Multiclass archetype offers occult spellcasting with no arcane or primal magic, so it was not an option.

And if Zandre had taken Psychic Multiclass for extra focus points and imaginary weapon, I would not worry about her combat prowess. Instead, Zandre usually uses plain cantrips, such as ignition, with her spellstrikes.

And the Diamond Distributor Bankrupty has disrupted some standard distribution channels, so simplifying the stocking Paizo publications in the stores will aid the resumption of business.

I have loved free archetype in the games that I GMed, and didn't feel that it moved the power needle much -- largely because most of the folks in my homegames aren't that rules savvy, so they chose stuff that resonated with their characters.

My own players are good at rules. The four that embraced the free archetypes (see comment #9 above) fortunately use their skill with character design for roleplaying rather than powergaming. As for the other three, one does not put time into character development, and another is a newbie enjoying experiencing Pathfinder as is without major plans.

The third is the smartest in our group, a genius biophysicist, and his Starlit Span magus Zandre is built for combat power. But he does not browse through lists of feats to find the most powerful options. I used to play weekly boardgames with him, and he sticks with one strategy that he planned from the beginning rather than switching strategies in Eurogames where the winning tactic is to constantly adapt to circumstances. (My wife wins these 4-player boardgames half the time, because she adapts constantly and cleverly.)

And the player characters are leveling up to 8th level this week for the module Hurricane's Howl, which has more emphasis on combat than the previous two modules. Thus, I pointed out to Zandre's player that Zandre has three Dragon Disciple archetypes already, so he could expand out to a 2nd archetype in his free archetype slots, and I said it did not have to be magical like the 1st archetype. Then I directed him to Ascalaphus's comment #15, which describes how to get more combat power from archetypes.

He decided that Zandre will take Rogue Multiclass Dedication for his 8th-level free archetype feat, one of Ascalaphus's examples. Zandre often shot her spellstrike arrows from hiding for the reduced AC from off-guard and a rogue's surprise attack would fit her favorite tactics.

Yes, free archetype can be exploited for additional combat power. But sometimes that works with the campaign. The magus Zandre took the heavy hitter role in the party, the champion Wilfred is the defender, the bard Jinx is the healer, the bard Stargazer is the buffer, the rogue Roshan is the debuffer, and the wizard Idris and kineticist Cara are wild cards. I want the heavy hitter at the top of her game so that the others can have fun in their chosen roles, so I gave him a hint to step up his game.

These Paizo forums are helpful in unexpected ways.

The Strength of Thousands Player's Guide recommends the free archetype but limited to druid multiclass and wizard multiclass. The PCs are students at the Magaambya Academy, which teaches arcane and primal magic. Those archetypes would gives PCs with non-arcane non-primal classes the ability to cast arcane or primal spells, to explain why they are at the Magaambya. I decided to open the options wider, and just said that their archetype had to do something with arcane or primal magic. The result was:

Cara'sseth Ti'kali, a catfolk fire kineticist with wizard free archetype
Idris, an anadi divination wizard with Magaambyan attendant free archetype
Jinx Fuun, a tengu enigma bard with druid free archetype
Roshan Azar, a fleshwarp eldritch trickster (elemental sorcerer) rogue with Gelid Shard free archetype
Stargazer, a ghoran enigma bard with druid free archetype
Wilfred Eugenus Rosehill-Aglag, a dromaar redeemer champion with magus free archetype
Zandre, an elf starlit-span magus with dragon disciple free archetype

Cara, Idris, and Jinx have strongly roleplayed their archetypes. Kineticist Cara wanted to become a wizard in her youth, but faulty training led to her tapping into fire impulses rather than arcane spells. Now she is at the Magaambya to learn proper wizard spellcasting, but kinetic fire impulses are still her main tool. Bard Jinx is more about druid culture rather than druid spells, though as the party healer she likes the extra Heal spells from the archetype's spell slots. She used druidic Animal Order to gain an animal companion. Wizard Idris picked a non-multiclass archetype directly related to the Magaambya Academy. He acts like a typical academic student, spending long hours in the library studying the Magaambyan tradition of combining arcane and primal magic. Idris's player has him prepare spells related to his classwork and then creatively use them for combat.

Rogue Roshan is weird. Her player was the main advocate of the Strength of Thousands campaign, because she wanted a rogue character with two spellcasting archetypes. She needed a free archetype to manage that. Her Gelid Shard archetype gives her spontaneous arcane cold spells and her Sorcerer Multiclass archetype she devoted to primal fire spells. In combat, she mostly uses her Athletics skill for grappling and tripping, and then punches the off-guard opponent for sneak attack damage (her ranged-spell teammates are seldom in position for flanking). Her archetype spells are for less frequent occasions when she needs a ranged attack or an area of effect.

Stargazer, Wilfred, and Zandre barely remember that they have a free archetype.

My wife, player of Jinx, was the other strong advocate for Strength of Thousands. In my previous PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion adventure path, her character Sam was a Charisma-based scoundrel rogue with Sorcerer Multiclass archetype. This campaign did not have free archetypes. My wife said that she constantly struggled with the multiclassing, because the needs of the rogue class and the needs of the sorcerer archetype both wanted her one-per-two-levels class feat slots. She wanted the free archetype so that she could multiclass without the conflict. Two other PCs in the Ironfang Invasion campaign took archetypes at 16th level, but that was after they had gotten everything they wanted out of their class feats so they did not feel the struggle.

Thus, in my experience the free archetype is an option to open up more roleplaying without costing the character their class feats. And one in seven players went weird with it.

The biggest problem with Staves is their spell ranks trail behind their item level, and it only gets worse as you level up further. Blasts and incapacitation effects won't be useful when they are stuck at 3-4 ranks below what you can cast. So you want spells which are useful at any level without heightening. This will also let you maximize your uses per day thanks to how charges work.

That is the main reason why a staff for the 6th-level primal sorcerer with bard dedication seemed the most interesting. The occult spells of the Bard Multiclass already lagged behind the spell ranks of a primary tradition. Spellcasting Archetypes give a 1st-rank spell at 4th level, 2nd-rank at 6th level, 3rd-rank at 8th level, 4th-rank at 12th level, 5th-rank at 14th level, 6th-rank at 16th level, 7th-rank at 18th level, and 8th-rank at 20th level. That is 3 levels behind at best. Staff ranks look good in comparison.

Levels at Which Spell Ranks Become Available
Rank Archtype Staff Wand Class
1 4 3 3 1
2 6 6 5 3
3 8 8 7 5
4 12 10 9 7
5 14 12 11 9
6 16 14 13 11
7 18 16 15 13
8 20 18 17 15
9 __ 20 19 17

Or sorted another way
1st level: spellcaster class has 1st rank, some items have cantrips
2nd level: archetype has cantrips
3rd level: class gains 2nd rank, wands and staves have 1st rank
4th level: archtype gains 1st rank, more 1st-rank staves
5th level: class gains 3rd rank, wands gain 2nd rank
6th level: archetypes and staves gain 2nd rank
7th level: class gains 4th rank, wands gain 3rd rank, more 2nd-rank staves
8th level: archetypes and staves gain 3rd rank
9th level: class gains 5th rank, wands gain 4th rank
10th level: staves gain 4th rank
11th level: class gains 6th rank, wands gain 5th rank, more 4th-rank staves
12th level: staves gain 5th rank, archetype gains 4th rank
13th level: class gains 7th rank, wands gain 6th rank
14th level: staves gain 6th rank, archetype gains 5th rank
15th level: class gains 8th rank, wands gain 7th rank. more 6th-rank staves
16th level: staves gain 7th rank, archetype gains 6th rank
17th level: class gains 9th rank, wands gain 8th rank, more 7th-rank staves
18th level: staves gain 8th rank, archetype gains 7th rank
19th level: class gains 10th rank, wands gain 9th rank
20th level: staves gain 9th rank, archetype gains 8th rank
The current inventory of staves lacks 5th-, 9th-, 13th-, and 19th-level staves.

My wife, who plays Jinx Fuun in my Strength of Thousands campaign (Hilary Moon Murphy might recall it from Common Sense Versus The Plot), decided that Jinx would organize a round-robin gift exchange between the party members for Winter Solstice. The gift price was capped at 80 gp unless the gift-giver has an excuse how they got the item cheaper than its list price, such as crafting it themselves or Bargain Hunter. I added temporary NPC party member Virgil Tibbs to the gift exchange to join in the fun.

And I noticed that some of the staves are musical instruments, which are pretty cool. I do like the look of the Pipes of Compulsion or the Seer's Flute.

And I also found the Coda musical instruments that act like staves in the hands of a bard: "Instruments with the coda trait work mostly like staves and have the staff trait. There are two differences: Coda instruments are in the form of musical instruments, and they can be prepared only by bards. Because they're not physically staves, you can't attack with a coda instrument, nor can you etch it with weapon runes." Virgil Tibbs gave a Trickster's Mandolin to the bard Jinx Fuun as a gift. It was a little above the price cap at 90 gp, but Virgil had the excuse that it was auctioned off at a discount by the police station after being confiscated from a trickster criminal.

Entertainer's Lute would have been more appropriate for singer, actor, and playwright Jinx Fuun, but Trickster's Mandolin seemed a little more practical. Prestidigitation is often on a cantrip repertoire for non-combat utility when pulling out a musical instrument would be no trouble, and would free up repertoire space for a combat cantrip. Illusory Disguise and Item Facade would help in stagecraft for a play.

My impression about staves in Pathfinder 1st Edition is that they were handy but terribly high priced. Thus, the party would keep a staff if found, but never buy one. I have not analyzed the price of staves in Pathfinder 2nd Edition, so let me do a quick analysis. Suppose a spellcaster wants to cast 2nd-level Translate. A Wand of 2nd-level Translate, item 5, would cost 160 gp. A Librarian Staff, item 6, can also cast 2nd-level Translate and costs 225 gp. And it has the option of other spells, such as Pocket Library, a favorite among my PCs. Okay, the price is comparable to wands. In contrast, a PF1 Staff of Understanding costs 14,400 PF1 gold pieces and a PF1 bard's Wand of Tongues costs 6,000 PF1 gold pieces and can be used multiple times per day.

An interesting exploit for the 6th-level primal sorcerer with bard dedication is that the sorcerer can cast occult spells only up to 2nd rank via Basic Bard Spellcasting, even when using a staff of occult spells. And a 2nd-rank spell from a staff costs 2 charges. On the other hand, the sorcerer preparing the staff will give the staff 3 charges, because the Preparing a Staff rules don't mention spell tradition and the sorcerer can cast 3rd-rank primal spells. At 7th level the sorcerer would get 4 charges for free each day. A staff or coda would noticeably enhance the Bard Multiclass archetype.

I'm gonna be honest, I just straight-up tell my players what RK skills would be appropriate. I'm pretty generous with Recalling anyway, because the conservative reading of the rules is kinda bad.

Likewise for me, but my alteration of Recall Knowledge has a long history behind it. First, I also do not bother with secret rolls. My players are good at roleplaying mistakes, such as recalling erroneous knowledge.

Second, during the public playtest of Pathfinder 2nd Edition, my wife wanted the player character's background and backstory to matter more. The one place we were able to implement it was in Recall Knowledge. If a wizard from a wizard school succeeded Recall Knowledge, I would emphasize information that would come out of textbook. If a barbarian from a tribe succeeded at Recall Knowledge, I would emphasize information that was told as stories around the campfire, such as, "You recall a hunter in the tribe telling stories about fighting this kind of creature. He told of its deadly sting and the venom's effects on his teammate. It does ..." I have not had as much fun this this in my current Strength of Thousands campaign, because all the characters are students at the Magaambya School of Magic, so they study similar knowledge.

Third, I also give three times the information recommended in the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Core Rulebook, because I have more fun when the players know what they are fighting.

As for which skill my player non-secretly roll for Recall Knowledge, I tell them the skill from the creature entry. Sometimes I give them a list, because some entries give a list; for example, identifying a Hell Hound is DC 18 in Arcana, Nature, or Religion. Nevertheless, they will sometimes negotiate, such as, "Can I roll Society on this shady count rather than Religion, because he has been involved in the society of this town?" And if I allow it, I will tell a tale about his political machinations and the loyalty of his staff rather than on his supernatural vampiric abilities.

I did not change my system for the Remaster, which emphasizes a specific question. That is better than the pre-Remaster recommendation of giving the most common knowledge. However, I like tailoring the answer to what the PC would care about based on their roleplayed priorities.

In conclusion, house rules on Recall Knowledge do work out when they make the action more flavorful.

This thread has been enlightening. Thank you for the discussion.

I came here from a weird direction. I am running a Strength of Thousands campaign with seven players. Due to spreading the experience points among more than four players and not able to plausibly increase the size or difficulty of every encounter to make up for that, I have been adding extra events to Strength of Thousands, such as a sequel to the 2008 module River into Darkness. My current additional event is that the party will assist in the preparations for the Convocation of Rival Academies featured in Lost Omens: Rival Academies. That book has a chapter about having PCs attend the Convocation, but Strength of Thousands starts four years before the Convocation and even after the first two modules, it is still three years in the future. Thus, they will help with preparing the Magaambya's biggest display at the Convocation, the Tree of Stories. The PCs will help transplant a kapok tree from the Magaambya campus in the Mwangi Expanse to the Academy of the Reclamation in Mendev, 2,500 miles away.

That is beyond the abilities of the spellcasting teachers currently named at the Magaambya, who can manage 1,000-mile 7th-rank Teleport spells but not the longer-range 8th-level ones. But I once ran Rise of the Runelords, and continued that campaign to 20th level with The Witchwar Legacy. All my past campaigns are canon to my present campaign. Furthermore, the Sihedron Spires, a New Thassilon academy, will participate in the Convocation, so they have connections to my Rise of the Runelords characters. The new PCs could team up with the old PCs--I have two current players who participated in the previous campaign. This would add the flavor of yet another academy to the adventure. I have done a team-up before between Rise of the Runelords and Jade Regent: What Happens to the Former Heroes of Adventure Paths, comment #24.

However, I did not run the 2018 adventure path Return of the Runelords. I read the entry on Belimarius and Sorshen in Lost Omens: Legends, but that does not tell give me enough information about their personalities for their encounter with the 20th-level Rise of the Runelords PCs in my incarnation of Golarion. I mostly need to tell the tale of whether the ancient runelords fought or cooperated. And I remembered seeing this thread about Sorshen, so I am here to learn.

In my own campaigns, I had a druid in Ironfang Invasion worried whether his fireball would set the forest on fire. I told the player that looking at the text, the fireball spell was specifically designed to hurt creatures rather than objects, so the forest would not catch on fire.

A wizard in my Strength of Thousands campaign had the same fears, but about damaging books in a library. This was a Magaambya Academy library, so the library ought to have strong fireproofing spells.

The Strength of Thousands campaign has a rogue with Magical Trickster feat that allows sneak attack with spell attacks against AC. She noticed that higher level spells seldom target AC. We have plans for a custom spellshape that will let area of effect spells concentrate on a particular target's AC in order to allow sneak attack. Thus, in my campaigns the damage from spells is malleable, to a small degree without a feat. Thus, the spellcaster could choose whether objects are protected or vulnerable in an area of effect.

Claxon wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Something I wish the rules made more clear is the idea of a non-combat Encounter mode. The point in the narrative where you are tracking events in the very short amounts of time measured by actions, but there isn't an initiative order.

I can't recall the wording, but I think the rule book makes it clear that any time where time matters, and tracking individuals actions are important is exactly what Encounter mode is, it doesn't even matter if there are no NPCs present.

I would agree with that. The rules for non-combat Encounter mode do exist... if you read the rules very, very carefully.

I just wish the rules made the idea more clear. So that more GMs would use it when it is appropriate.

My game session yesterday was entirely non-combat.

After some conversations with other students and with teachers, the 7th-level party headed to the North Docks of Nantambu. Those docks are not canon to Golarion lore; instead, I had added them for a runesmith playtest encounter. I had explained that the North Docks were the slums of Nantambu, because they flood occasionally. Therefore, when winter rainy season arrived, I had a flood. I altered the map to fill the roads and gabs between buildings with water. The party was forewarned that the rain would bring a flood and had volunteered to help.

Relevant to this thread's issue of the gap between Exploration mode and Encounter mode, I asked my players if their rescue of people trapped atop buildings should be in Exploration mode or Encounter mode. Their ship was already docked at the submerged docks, unable to go into the neighborhood itself because the flood was too shallow. They selected Encounter mode. We rolled initiative for player characters and other rescuers. No opponents rolled initiative because no-one was an opponent. Townsfolk in trouble acted on command after a Diplomacy or Intimidation check.

The kineticist Cara with wizard archetype cast Enlarge on the champion so that he could wade through the water with his Athletics and pick up people. The actual wizard Idris cast 4th-rank Water Walk on the entire party, but I said the flood waters were difficult terrain. The bard Jinx Fuun, whose backstory had her born on an ocean-going ship, brought a folding rowboat from Magaambya supplies and used her Sailing Lore to row about the neighborhood while maintaining a Triple Time song to speed everyone up. Idris had a second 4th-rank spell, Sliding Blocks, that made platforms for jumps and could move some slowly. The players pointed out that the Triple-Time speed meant that they could Leap 15 feet between rooftops. Some PCs simply leaped over to diplomatically or intimidatingly persuade panicked people to leap onto blocks or the rowboat.

The two advantages of doing this in Encounter mode rather than Exploration mode is that it clarified the timing of who could rescue particular people the soonest, and made stunts that sped up the PCs more dramatic. For example, the champion had Quick Jump and discovered that Long Jumps were faster than Striding over difficult terrain.

I occasionally throw a creativity challenge like this at my players. They enjoy the chance to stretch their imagination.

As for the transition between Exploration mode and Encounter mode, I had a houserule that simplified some issues. Say the player had listened at a door in a dungeon during Exploration mode and knew that enemies awaited in the next room. They would plan for one PC, typically the rogue who had checked the door for traps, to open the door and then the martial characters would rush in. But left to the initiative dice, the rogue could roll lower than the martials, so the martials would spend their first turn saying, "I wait until the door is open." That was boring and eliminated the advantage of rolling high initiative. Instead, I would allow an inciting event in Exploration mode. The rogue would open the door and then we would roll initiative. Or in a different scenario, with the party finding the bandit camp in the forest and still being unnoticed, the inciting event would be the wizard casting Fireball on the camp while the bandits were all grouped together. The inciting event was not a full turn; instead, it was merely enough actions to perform the event.

My take on it is that the magic warrior archetype can represent a historical time when the 10MW fought the King of Biting Ants and they needed to hide their identities to prevent the King from going after their families etc., but that after he was defeated this wasn't so important anymore. It's a canonical point that armies don't make it to Nantambu because the Tempest-Sun have very sufficient firepower.

So most Magaambyans use the "new" mask practice of using the mask to express themselves. The "old" tradition of using the mask to disguise still exists, and might be useful to agents operating further afield in hostile territory.

Another factor about the Magic Warrior tradition changing over time is the vast amount of time. The Old-Mage Jatembe and the Magic Warriors founded the Magaambya Academy in -2832 AR, The Strength of Thousands adventure path starts in 4721 AR. That is 7553 years. In that amount of time the Magic Warrior tradition could have been lost, restored, altered, and reverted over and over again. The only anchor points across the millennia are the stories and the masks.

So for me, the point of the archetype isn't to turn into an animal, or to make you a martial. It's about being able to be a resistance warrior against evil overlord wizards.

Ah, evil overlords. Peter Anspach, one of the authors of The Evil Overlord List, had been my boss 20 years ago. He was a good boss. He no longer updated the list, but he still supported the website.

Resistance warrior against powerful enemies of the Mwangi Expanse is a good theme.

Mathmuse wrote:

I am fairly sure that the developer's intent for the Magic Warrior was to illustrate the Mwangi Expanse rather than add another class archetype to magus.

I'm not really seeing why these two things are mutually exclusive. Would a flavorful Magus class archetype not be an awesome way of illustrating the Mwangi Expanse?

Class archetypes are not as fun as general archetypes.

The PF1 class archetypes came out of the game design standards of Paizo re-inventing Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition as Pathfinder 1st Edition.

Multiclassing was beloved by players, but it could lead to abusive combinations in Dungeons & Dragons. Furthermore, high-level 3rd EditionD&D often had so-called dead levels that offered nothing interesting except +1 to a few numbers, which made a switch to multiclass tempting at those levels. Thus, Wizards of the Coast put penalties on multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition. Multiclassed characters would earn fewer experience points. (In retrospect, that was bad design.) Yet to allow the fun of multiclassing when it was not disruptive, Wizards of the Coast developers invented ways around the penalties such as Prefered Classes for various races. For example, elves could multiclass to wizard without penalty. Prestige classes were another workaround. They were deliberately designed for multiclassing and had no penalty, but they had strict prerequisites that restricted their use. Sometimes a prestige class was designed to fit with only one base class.

Paizo removed the multiclass penalties from Pathfinder 1st Edition and tried to design each class to simply encourage players to stick to one class to enjoy the high-level benefits. This left prestige classes in an awkward place. Players still wanted to play variants on classes like the prestige classes offered. So in the PF1 Advanced Player's Guide Paizo developers offered class archetypes. They let the players play a variant without having to multiclass.

The tight math in Pathfinder 2nd Edition was incompatible with classic multiclassing. Instead, multiclassing was by general archetype, based on a PF1 optional system from Pathfinder Unchained called Variant Multiclassing. Since these PF2 archetypes were intended for multiclassing, the developers saw little reason to force an archetype to stick with a single class as a class archetype.

I said "little reason" rather than no reason, because some exceptions appeared. Flexible Spellcaster and Wellspring Mage from Secret of Magic (September 2021) each required a specific style of spellcasting from 1st level and altered that spellcasting at 1st level before the player formally took the archetype. Elementalist from Rage of Elements (August 2023) had similar requirements. Spellshot from Guns & Gears (October 2021) was the first true PF2 class archetype. It required the Gunslinger's Way of the Spellshot as a prerequisite, so it was only for Gunslingers. That opened the gates for later class archetypes in War of Immortals (October 2024) and Divine Mysteries (January 2025).

Magic Warrior could be a class archetype in the same sense as Flexible Spellcaster, Wellspring Mage, and Elementalist. Give it a prerequisite that the base class must offer martial weapon proficiency and spell slots at 1st level. Then the character would already have magic and be a warrior as a Magic Warrior and the archetype would simply offer a few tricks with the Magaambyan mask. The only classes that fit that are bard and magus, because warpriest cleric does not gain martial weapon proficiency until 3rd level. A rogue like Noor Khan could never become a Magic Warrior, so I would have to give her a Wizard Multiclass archetype instead, less flavorful for a spy. I refer to see alchemist Magic Warriors, barbarian Magic Warriors, champion Magic Warriors, druid Magic Warriors, exemplar Magic Warriors, fighter Magic Warriors, etc., implying that Magic Warriors can come from all walks of life.

In summary, class archetypes perform a narrow modification of particular class features. Magic Warrior is not modifying particular features; instead, a magus class archetype Magic Warrior would be piggybacking on an existing gish class as a shortcut to obtain both magic and martial prowess. It would narrow the flavor of Magic Warriors.

Random thought, but if the intent here for some people is to make the Magic Warrior play like a Magus, would that not be a great opportunity for a Magus class archetype?

The intent behind Magic Warrior is regional favor about the Mwangi Expanse. According to the Archives of Nethys, which is great about tracking sources, the PF1 Magic Warrior magus archetype was first published in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue in May 2016 and later republished in the hardcover Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Adventurer's Guide, released a year later. The archetype was ported to PF2 in the Pathfinder Lost Omens: World Guide, released in July 2022.

Overview

Heroes aren’t born, they’re forged: forced by extraordinary circumstances to rise above and shaped by the world they inhabit.

This book is a guide to that world. In its pages, you’ll learn about the heart of the Pathfinder setting, known as the Inner Sea region, from the towns and cities your heroes call home to the wild frontiers and monstrous lairs where they’ll risk everything in search of fortune and glory. The information presented here provides players with a sense of the setting as a whole and is perfect for both fleshing out existing character concepts and inspiring you when you’re not sure what to play. Is your wizard a necromancer from haunted Ustalav, raised to battle the undead armies of the Whispering Tyrant, or a young student at the Arcanamirium in Absalom, the City at the Center of the World? Perhaps you’re a daring priest from the burning deserts of Qadira, blasting manticores and genies with the blazing light of the sun goddess Sarenrae, or a troll-hunting warrior from the icy Lands of the Linnorm Kings. Regardless, here you’ll find the rich details you need to give your character the perfect backstory, as well as new backgrounds, gods, feats, spells, and other rules to help you customize your ideal hero.

Paizo offers new character options in their Golarion sourcebooks, perhaps for more immersion than just reading about the regions and perhaps to lure non-GM players to buy the books. The Magic Warriors were more representative of the entire Mwangi Expanse than other possible archetypes, because they traveled the entire region. In contrast, the Pathfinder Lost Omens: Character Guide, released two years earlier in October 2019, offered the Magaambyan Attendent and Halcyon Speaker archetypes, which were tightly focused on the Magaambya Academy.

I am fairly sure that the developer's intent for the Magic Warrior was to illustrate the Mwangi Expanse rather than add another class archetype to magus. The PF1 developers David N. Ross and Ross Byers had a choice of making a Magic Warrior its own class (too important for a regional tradition), a prestige class (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Intrigue did that with Taldor's Lion Blade), or a class archetype. They chose class archetype and the magus class was easiest to adapt to the concept.

As for my intent, I added classroom courses to my Strength of Thousands campaign, because my players wanted to seriously roleplay as students, I invented a course for every skill. For the first semester, Spring 4721 AR, I had the inventory manager Xhokan teach inventory security for the Thievery class, but really I needed a rogue to teach future Thievery classes in later semesters. So I made a new teacher, Noor Khan, based on real-life British resistance agent Noor Inayat Khan. Most teachers at the Magaambya Academy have a half-page description but no stat block. I found that the courses let me add teacher-supervised field trips to the campaign, which required a stat block for the teacher. Winter semester was time to give Noor Khan her stat block and the Magic Warrior archetype seemed a flavorful way to add magic to an Emerald Boughs (i.e., Magaambyan spy) rogue.

I also like to study game design, and an exercise such as repairing a broken archetype is practical experience in game design. Teridax's thread Multiclass dedication feats could be improved in a number of ways brings up notions that can be explored in a practical exercise. Ryangwy's objections to my latest ideas reveal the difficulty of balancing a gish class ("gish" refers to some early D&D foes who had both martial and spellcasting abilities, and became the nickname for martial-spellcaster hybrids: What A D&D "Gish" Character Build Is & How To Make One).

I don't like how you give so many proficiencies via feats, and in ways that don't match how they're given normally via archetype. It's very jarring, looking at a PF1e relic kind of feeling.

Usually I sit on a draft for a week to get better perspective and tone it down. But I am in a hurry this time, because Noor Khan is already active in my games, with her five homebrew Magic Warrior feats. I have a plot worked out in which the 7th-level player characters will team up with Noor Khan and 8th-level visiting scholar Kassi Aziril against trouble that followed them to Nantambu. It will happen in next week's game session or the week after.

Mathmuse wrote:

Mask Armor Feat 4

Your mask becomes armor. You are trained in light armor, medium armor, and unarmored defense. When you cast Don the Mask, the mask can transform to clothe you in explorer's clothing, leather armor, quilted armor, or hide armor for as long as you wear your mask. Removing the mask is still an Interact action, but casting Don the Mask again can make the armor disappear while masked. You may attach armor runes to the mask that become active when its armor appears.

Extremely awkward, nonscaling proficiency in armour when there's no reason why wearing a mask makes you comfortable wearing medium armour in the first place. Make it a bespoke armour that you can choose between the stats of leather armour or hide armour for but that uses your unarmoured proficiency, and maybe give it a free rainment rune.

That would be more magically elegant. I could scale it off the Mystic Armor spell. On the other hand, the mask does give a way to use actual armor runes instead of mimicking them with a scaling spell.

Nevertheless, Champion archetype gives light and medium armor proficiency, so gaining armor proficiencies from an archetype has happened before. And the PF1 magus Magic Warrior had light and medium armor proficiency, so I copied that.

Mathmuse wrote:

Mask Transformation [one-action] Focus 2

Uncommon Manipulate Polymorph
Based on Magic Warrior Transformation, World Guide pg. 95
Requirements You are wearing your Magic Warrior mask.
Duration 1 minute
You transform into the animal from your mask. You transform into a battle form copying your mask's creature, following the polymorph rules. You gain the features and attributes in the creature's Animal Companion entry, except all the attributes are increased by 1, you keep your original hit points, and you do not gain the creature's Minion trait, Support Benefit, nor Advanced Maneuver. ...

Is there a reason why you went against the standard polymorph template (especially when animal form is right there) for this instead? It looks pointlessly messy when you could just make it untamed form.

Yes, I have a reason. The reason is similar to the difference between casting a Summon Animal spell and adopting an Animal Companion. The Summon Animal, Animal Form, and Untamed Form spells are a one-shot appearance of a different animal each time. Animal Companion and a Magic Warrior mask are about keeping to the same animal or animal form.

Furthermore, while Summon Animal gives lots of detail about the animals by referencing Monster Core entries, Summon Animal uses the same template for each animal except for the difference in their speeds and unarmed attacks. Animal Companions offer more individualism in the animals, making the choice of mask more significant.

Mathmuse wrote:

Magic Warrior Expertise Feat 6 ...

The last similar one got purged in fire, and honestly I really don't see why you need this if your primary combat is through a polymorph spell (you know... a regular one). Let the martials be martials and the casters be casters.

Is a Magic Warrior magic (caster) or warrior (martial)? The Ten Magic Warriors were apprentice wizards, except that Azure Leopard was known as a defender, Ibex was known as a healer, Shifting Frog was known as a ranger-like elf, Verdant Spider was known as a baker, and White Bull was known as an architect. And the archetype outright states, "You mix magic and martial prowess, following in the tradition of the Ten Magic Warriors of Old-Mage Jatembe."

A martial, or a gish who is half martial, needs their weapon proficiency to increase to keep up with the increasing AC of opponents. If I wanted the Magic Warrior to be entirely a shifter, relying totally on transformed unarmed attacks for melee combat, then I could have their morphed or polymorphed form increase in attack bonus instead, but as far as I know the original Magic Warriors were not shifters. I presume that some Pathfinder 1st Edition developer had the cute idea that a character who always wore an animal mask should embrace aspects of that mask, and a PF2 developer added a full mask transformation, but I have to handwave those ideas as more recent Magic Warriors discovered that they could do more magic with their masks than the originals could. I don't want their combat to always be through a polymorph spell. Maybe I should drop Mask Transformation.

Okay, a weakness in my design is that I am applying band-aids to an archetype developed in separate visions rather than forged as a unified concept. What unified vision should I have for Magic Warrior that does not make the character rely on polymorphing?

Ryangwy wrote:

Oh! New idea! What if Magic Warrior was a 12th level archetype which doesn't lockout Magaambyaan Attendant/Halycon Speaker, and that can be taken as a mythic destiny like Mortal Herald? That lets you put a lot more power into the mask if it's that high level, better matches the story of the Ten, and allows you to gate truly legendary stuff behind mythic point use.

This is a great idea. The Magic Warriors are legendary figures and there has been very few of them. Mythic would definitely fit.

Magic Warrior archetype is not directly about the legendary Ten Magic Warriors. It is about newer heroes of the Mwangi Expanse inspired to follow in the footsteps of the original Magic Warriors. Requiring these inspired heroes to have earned their own prowess before donning a mask at 12th level to re-earn their reputation in a new identity feels like the wrong story.

I own a copy of Lost Omens Legends. Just because someone is a legend does not make them mythic. Most of the legendary people in the book are contemporary rulers of nations, such as Queen Abrogail Thrune II, ruler of Cheliax, and Nankou, Linnorm King of Icemark. A few figures in the book, such as Baba Yaga, are probably mythic, but most aren't. The Licktoad Goblins from We Be Goblins are in Legends. Some renown Legends figures have non-mythic stat blocks in adventure paths. For example, Kevoth-Kul, Black Sovereign of Numeria, is a male human barbarian 15 in Palace of Fallen Stars whose only amazing feature is that Numerian fluids have rendered him ageless. General Azaersi of Oprak is a female hobgoblin swashbuckler 20 in Vault of the Onyx Citadel.

Here is the backstory and build of Magaambyan teacher Noor Khan.

Vudrani scout Noor Khan and several other Vudrani volunteers sailed to Vidrian to assist in the Vidric Revolution. Arriving during the Free Captains’ retaliatory assault in 4717 AR, their ship participated in the naval battles. Alas, this gained them little recognition among the people of the new nation, many who looked upon them as outsiders. Most volunteers returned home. Noor, instead, traveled north to the Magaambya Academy to study medicine.

She returned to Vidrian as a physician and alchemist. Wearing her damibwaa mask from the Magaambya made her more accepted by the Vidric people, so that became her routine. She also found a growing magical connection between herself and her mask, granting her the abiltiy to cast arcane cantrips. Upon further study at the Magambya, she found tales of the the magic that developed in devotees of the Ten Magic Warriors. She joined the Emerald Boughs branch of the Magaambya, which focused on studying culture. Her research took her to other nations, where she adopted a dual identity: unmasked as an apolitical medical researcher and masked as Swimming Dog who rescued the downtrodden. She crafted a second mask of human visage for remaining anonymous.

She is currently on hiatus from field work and teaching at the Magaambya due to pregnancy.

Noor Inayat Khan Rogue 10
Human female sociologist
Ancestry Human, Heritage Skilled
Background Spotter
Racket Eldritch Trickster (Magic Warrior)
Perception +19
Languages Elvish, Garundi, Kelish, Mwangi, Osiriani, Taldoran, Vudrani
Skills Athletics +13, Crafting +16, Deception(m) +20, Diplomacy(e) +18, Emerald Boughs Lore +16, Intimidation +16, Magic Warrior Lore +16, Medicine(m) +19, Nature +15, Performance +16, Scouting Lore +16, Society(m) +20, Stealth(m) +20, Survival +15, Thievery(e) +18
Str +1, Dex +4, Con +1, Int +4, Wis +3, Cha +4
Items +1 ghost-touch striking shortsword, +1 rainment resilient leather armor, alchemist's toolkit, healer's toolkit (expanded), thieves' toolkit (infiltrator), Magic Warrior damibwa mask, Magic Warrior human mask, two moderate antidotes, two lesser elixirs of life, scroll of fireball, scroll of aerial form, 30 gp
Rogue Features Sneak attack 2d6, surprise attack, deny advantage, weapon tricks, debilitating strike
Class Feats
Eldritch Trickster Racket: Magic Warrior Dedication
Natural Ambition: Nimble Dodge
2nd: Magical Trickster
4th: Magic Warrior Arcana
6th: Basic Magic Warrior Spellcasting
8th: Mask Transformation
10th: Ancestry Mask
Ancestry Feats Courteous Comeback, Natural Ambition (Nimble Dodge), Sense Allies
General Feats Breath Control, Feather Step
Skill Feats Alchemical Crafting, Backup Diguise, Battle Medicine, Continual Recovery, Glad-Hand, Medical Researcher, Multilingual, Slippery Secrets, Swift Sneak, Terrain Stalker (underbrush), Underwater Marauder
AC 28; Fort +15 resilience, Ref +20 evasive, Will +17
HP 98
Speed 25 feet
Melee [one-action] +1 ghost-touch striking shortsword +19 [+15/+11] (agile, finesse, versatile S), Damage 2d6+3 piercing
Arcane Prepared Spells DC 26, attack +16
3rd dive and breach
2nd helpful wood spirits
1st admonishing ray, ant haul
Cantrip (5th) needle darts, spout
Magic Warrior Focus Spells (2 focus points) don the mask, mask transformation

"Swimming Dog" Animal Mask
Based on Wolf, Player Core pg. 210
Size Small
Melee [one-action] jaws +19 [+14/+9] (finesse), Damage 1d8+4 piercing
Str +4, Dex +5, Con +3, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha +2 (increases added already)
AC 28; Fort +17 resilience, Ref +21 evasive, Will +17
Temporary Hit Points 6
Skill Survival +14
Senses low-light vision, scent (imprecise, 30 feet)
Speed 30 feet, Swim 10 feet

"Goro Takei" Ancestry Mask
Ancestry human; Heritage versatile(Fleet); Language Tien

Magic Warrior Dedication Feat 2
Archetype, Dedication
Based on Magic Warrior Dedication, Lost Omens World Guide pg. 95, and Vigilante Dedication, Player Core 2 pg. 218
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Trained in Arcana or Nature, trained in unarmed attacks.
Access You are from the Mwangi Expanse or attended the Magaambya Academy
You have donned a magical animal mask and learned the way of the magic warriors. You become trained in Magic Warrior Lore.

You make a Magic Warrior mask representing an animal of your choice from the Animal Companion list or similar to one of those animals, such as an Ibex instead of a Goat. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics, Athletics or an additional skill listed on the selected animal companion. If you are already trained in all those skills, you may train another skill instead.

You have only one Magic Warrior mask, unless a feat grants you another one. You also name the mask based on the animal selected, such as Azure Leopard or White Bull. You cannot change the creature or name of the mask. If your mask is lost or destroyed, you can craft a replacement with the same appearance in one day of downtime. The mask is designed so that you can eat, drink, and sleep while masked.

You gain the focus spell Don the Mask. You Refocus by wearing your mask. If the mask is absorbed in a polymorph, that still counts as wearing the mask. Putting on the mask with an Interact action instead of Don the Mask does not changed your identity.

Special You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the magic warrior archetype.

Don the Mask [one-action] Focus 1
Uncommon, Mental
Requirement You are holding, carrying, or wearing your Magic Warrior mask.
You mask your identity and become a mysterious figure. You Interact to put on your Magic Warrior mask. If you are already wearing your mask, you may Step instead. You assume an identity under the name of your mask. Your normal identity becomes obscured, except to people that you want to recognize you, as long as you do not remove your mask. That normal identity is not forgotten; rather, people remember it as another person. Effects that detect you based on your identity work only if you are currently in the identity the effect is trying to detect; otherwise, the effect fails as if the target didn't exist. No-one can discern the connection between your normal and Magic Warrior identities by observation, divination, or deduction from clues. Even people present as you put on your mask forget that your identity had changed right before their eyes. Likewise, if you remove this mask, people still do not connect your masked identity to your normal identity.

While in your Magic Warrior identity, you gain a +2 status bonus to saving throws against effects that try to detect you.

The Historic Ten Magic Warriors were Azure Leopard wearing cat mask, Black Heron wearing bird mask, Carmine Jaws wearing hyena mask, Elephant wearing elephant mask, Golden Snake wearing snake mask, Ibex wearing goat mask, Shifting Frog wearing a custom frog mask, Verdant Spider wearing custom spider mask, Whistling Kite wearing bird mask, and White Bull wearing custom bull mask.

I have no idea whether the original Ten Magic Warriors could use Mask Aspect or Mask Transformation, but here are the stats for the custom masks for Shifting Frog and Verdant Spider. White Bull's custom bull mask copies the rhinoceros animal companion.

Shifting Frog's Mask
Based on Capybara from Grand Bazaar pg. 54 and Animal Form from Player Core pg. 315
Size Small
Melee [one-action] jaws Damage 1d6 bludgeoning
Melee [one-action] tongue (reach 10 feet), Damage 1d4 bludgeoning
Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +0
Temporary Hit Points 6
Skill Survival
Senses low-light vision
Speed 25 feet, swim 25 feet

Verdant Spider's Mask
Based on Cave Gecko from Pathfinder #154: Siege of the Dinosaurs pg. 73 and Hunting Spider from Monster Core pg. 320
Size Small
Melee fangs Damage 1d4 piercing plus 1d4 poison
Str +2, Dex +3, Con +1, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +0
Temporary Hit Points 6
Skill Stealth
Senses imprecise tremorsense 30 feet
Speed 25 feet, climb 25 feet

Magic Warrior Arcana Feat 4
Archetype
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Dedication, Trained in Arcana
You cast spells like the wizard Old-Mage Jatembe. You gain a spellbook with two common arcane cantrips and two common 1st-rank arcane spells of your choice. You gain the Cast a Spell activity. You’re trained in the spell attack modifier and spell DC statistics. Your key spellcasting attribute for Magic Warrior archetype spells is Intelligence. While wearing your Magic Warrior mask, you can prepare one cantrip and one 1st-rank spell each day from your spellbook. Also while wearing your Magic Warrior mask, you can use arcane scrolls and wands. You can add further spells to your spellbook through the Learn a Spell Activity

Mask Armor Feat 4
Your mask becomes armor. You are trained in light armor, medium armor, and unarmored defense. When you cast Don the Mask, the mask can transform to clothe you in explorer's clothing, leather armor, quilted armor, or hide armor for as long as you wear your mask. Removing the mask is still an Interact action, but casting Don the Mask again can make the armor disappear while masked. You may attach armor runes to the mask that become active when its armor appears.

Mask Aspect Feat 4
Archetype
Based on Magic Warrior Aspect, World Guide pg. 95
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Dedication
You can alter your form to gain an aspect of the animal your mask represents. You gain the mask aspect focus spell.

Mask Aspect [one-action] Focus 2
Uncommon Manipulate Morph
Based on Magic Warrior Aspect, World Guide pg. 95
Requirements You are wearing your Magic Warrior mask.
Duration 1 minute
You call upon the aspect of the animal from your mask, morphing to gain some physical features reminiscent of that animal. You gain the senses and the unarmed attacks of your mask's creature. You can Dismiss this spell.
Heightened (3rd) You also gain all the the Speeds of the mask's creature.
Heightened (5th) The duration increases to 10 minutes. You may automatically spend a focus point at the end of the duration to continue it for an additional 10 minutes indefinitely, even if unconscious.

Mask Transformation Feat 4
Archetype
Based on Magic Warrior Transformation, World Guide pg. 95
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Dedication
You can transform fully into the animal your mask represents. You gain the Mask Transformation focus spell.

Mask Transformation [one-action] Focus 2
Uncommon Manipulate Polymorph
Based on Magic Warrior Transformation, World Guide pg. 95
Requirements You are wearing your Magic Warrior mask.
Duration 1 minute
You transform into the animal from your mask. You transform into a battle form copying your mask's creature, following the polymorph rules. You gain the features and attributes in the creature's Animal Companion entry, except all the attributes are increased by 1, you keep your original hit points, and you do not gain the creature's Minion trait, Support Benefit, nor Advanced Maneuver. You gain the animal companion entry's initial hit points as temporary hit points. If your form has the mount trait, you do not lose an action when a character rides you. Handwraps of Mighty Blows still affect your unarmed attacks. You can Dismiss this spell.
Heightened (4th) Your animal form's Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Charisma increase by 1. This can increase a +4 into a +5.
Heightened (5th) The duration increases to 10 minutes. You may automatically spend a focus point at the end of the duration to continue it for an additional 10 minutes indefinitely, even if unconscious. This automatic extension renews the temporary hit points.

Basic Magic Warrior Spellcasting Feat 6
Archetype
Based on Basic Wizard Spellcasting, Player Core pg. 223
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Arcana
You gain the basic spellcasting benefits and you can prepare two cantrips each day instead of just one. You no longer need to wear your Magic Warrior mask while preparing your spells. The 1st-rank spell from basic spellcasting benefits is in addition to the 1st-rank spell from Magic Warrior Arcana. You gain your 2nd-rank spell at 8th level and your 3rd-rank spell at 10th level. At 6th, 8th, and 10th level, add two common spells of rank up to your highest Magic Warrior spellcasting rank to your spellbook.

Magic Warrior Expertise Feat 6
Archetype
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Dedication
You've dedicated yourself to the warrior side of Magic Warriors. Your proficiency ranks for weapons and unarmed attacks in which you are trained increase to expert.

Masked Anonymity Feat 6
Archetype
Based on Nameless Anonymity, World Guide pg. 95
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Dedication
Your mask protects you further from divination. If you cast Don the Mask during your daily preparations, you also gain the effect of Veil of Privacy for as long as you wear your mask.

Ancestry Mask Feat 8
Archetype
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Dedication
Another Magic Warrior mask lets you present a different face. You make another Magic Warrior mask representing a common or uncommon ancestry or a rare ancestry from the Mwangi Expanse (Anadi, Conrasu, or Goloma) to gain yet another name and identity. Choose a language that that ancestry typically speaks and a Heritage of that ancestry. You can speak that language while wearing the ancestry mask. When you cast Mask Aspect while wearing the ancestry mask, you gain the features of that ancestry and that heritage and the mask is absorbed to change your appearance. Mask Transformation while wearing the ancestry mask is the same as Mask Aspect and is a morph instead of a polymorph. You can have only one ancestry mask and cannot change its associated identity.

Mask Kinspeech Feat 10
Archetype
Based on Kinspeech familar ability Player Core pg. 212
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Dedication, trained in Nature
Your mask is in harmony with animals. While wearing your Magic Warrior animal mask, you can understand and speak with animals of the species represented by the mask. You can also cast Speak with Animals once per day while wearing your Magic Warrior animal mask.

Cosmic Mask Feat 12
Archetype
Based on Kindled Magic said on page 43, "Animals are the most typical shapes for Magaambyan masks, but other shapes (particularly celestial objects or supernatural beasts) aren’t uncommon."
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Dedication
Your mask taps into the cosmos mystery. Decorate your Magic Warrior Mask (both masks if you have Ancestry Mask) with images of the sun, moon, and stars. Learn one of the following focus spells spray of stars, interstellar void, and moonlight bridge. You can cast it while polymorphed with Mask Transformation.
Special You can take this feat up to three times, each time selecting a different focus spell.

Expert Magic Warrior Spellcasting Feat 12
Archetype
Based on Expert Wizard Spellcasting, Player Core pg. 223
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Basic Magic Warrior Spellcasting, expert in Arcana
You gain the expert spellcasting benefits.

Magic Warrior Mastery Feat 14
Archetype
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Magic Warrior Expertise
You've mastered the combat techniques of Magic Warriors. Your proficiency ranks for weapons and unarmed attacks in which you are expert increase to master.

Follow the Founder Feat 16
Auditory Concentrate Downtime
Based on Follow the Expert, Player Core pg. 438
Five of the Ten Magic Warriors founded the Magaambya and you can lead in their example. Any ally making a downtime skill check with a skill where you are Expert or better and in regular communication with you, gains a circumstance bonus to the skill based on your proficiency (+2 for expert, +3 for master, and +4 for legendary).

Master Magic Warrior Spellcasting Feat 18
Expert Magic Warrior Spellcasting Feat 12 (Spellcasting Line)
Archetype
Based on Master Wizard Spellcasting, Player Core pg. 223
Archetype Magic Warrior
Prerequisites Expert Magic Warrior Spellcasting, master in Arcana
You gain the master spellcasting benefits.

Legendary Mask Feat 20
You are inspired by the Ten Magic Warriors. You learn one of the following mask-related feats: Cunning Trickster Mask, Emancipator's Mask, Grand Medic's Mask, Protective Spirit Mask, Sky Master Mask, Stalking Feline Mask, Storyteller's Mask, Thick Hide Mask, Tireless Guide's Mask, Vigilant Mask.

Weeks ago I grew busy and put this discussion aside, but now this thread is active again, I wrote down my thoughts for a rewritten Magic Warrior archetype. The work took two full days.

The major flaw in the PF2 Magic Warrior archetype is that it is almost entirely direct conversion of the PF1 Magic Warrior class archetype for magus.
PF1 Nameless Mask (Ex) became PF2 Magic Warrior Dedication feat 2.
PF1 Magic Warrior’s Aspect (Su), replacing the 3rd-level magus arcana, became PF2 Magic Warrior Aspect feat 4.
PF1 Nameless Anonymity (Su), delaying 8th-level improved spell combat to 14th level, became Nameless Anonymity feat 6.
PF1 Magaambya Spell Access (Su), replacing 19th-level greater spell access, was not ported.
And PF2 Magic Warrior Transformation feat 4 is new.
The Magic Warrior in PF1 relied on the spells and combat prowess of the Magus class to be a magical warrior. The Magic Warrior in PF2 has no options to provide spellcasting or martial proficiency if a player starts with a class missing either aspect. A Magic Warrior fighter would have no magic except for at most two focus spells, and not fit the "Magic" part of "Magic Warrior." A Magic Warrior sorcerer would be untrained in martial weapons, never expert in simple weapons, and untrained in all armor, and nit fit the "Warrior" part of "Magic Warrior."

Thus, the archetype needs feats that can provide the missing proficiencies. Magic Warrior Aspect could provide unarmed attacks that are as good as martial weapons. A new feat called Mask Armor would train in light and medium armor. And the archetype would have basic, expert, and master spellcasting feats. An archetype suitable as a free archetype needs 10 feats, one to take at each even level, but since some Magic Warriors will skip the feats that improve martial abilities and others will skip the feats that grant spellcasting, I needed to increase the Magic Warrior archetype from 4 feats to 14 feats. I went a little further and increased it to 16 feats.

A complicating factor is that I have a teacher at the Magaambya Academy whom I want to be a Magic Warrior. Noor Khan gives her lectures maskless. She will sometimes wear her mask for ceremonial occasions while still known by her maskless identity. Thus, the mask cannot be a constant identity. Instead, I will make a focus spell called Don the Mask that conceals the character's original identity to embrace a masked identity.

Have subsequent feats let you choose better martial training or spellcasting benefits, including flavorful options for combining both.

Include the mask feats as capstone options at 20th level, e.g. Cunning Trickster Mask, Sky Master Mask, Tireless Guide's Mask, and so on.

Thanks for the suggestion. I had skimmed the adventure in the 6th module, [i]Shadows of the Ancients,[/url] but I had not glanced at the Adventure Toolbox section that included those ten feats. They make a solid capstone to the Magic Warrior archetype. Without the Magic Warrior archetype they are weirdly out of place.

Arguably the least of the archetype's worries, but "Nameless Anonymity" is quite possibly the worst name ever conceived for a feat in Pathfinder. Anonymous literally means "nameless". It's like calling a feat "Quiet Silence" or "Powerful Power".

And the Ten Magic Warriors were not nameless. They had names such as Shifting Frog. I will change the name to Masked Anonymity.

Thanks to everyone for their help.