Malifice's page

Clearly the player does NOT know that this would've been a breach his code.

WHY ELSE WOULD THIS THREAD EXIST?!

Because the player wants his cake (the Powers) and to be able to eat it too (shirking the responsibilities or burden that comes with a Paladin when it suits him).

I love the guy, and he is by no means the worst at it, but its kinda how he rolls. He tested me, tried to justify it knowing how I would have viewed it, and I didnt budge.

FWIW, he wanted an evil PC to begin with (and I would have allowed it, but for the objections of another player - it was put to a player vote).

Pity about him retiring the Paladin; I was going to have a monologing villian attempt to seduce him fully to 'the dark side'.

The penalty for refusal would have been a clear and unambiguous certain death .

Think Sidious/ Luke scenario.

Now thats a roleplaying opportunity right there.

Im not a 'prick' of a GM, I just hold my examplars of Good to (rightfully) high standards.

If the paladin kills this man, then yes I agree he should fall.

Ho on earth is this any different to the Kobold situation?

Racist against Kobolds.

Kobolds are sentient creatures like any other, with possibly less choice than your average human(its not their fault they are amost always raised in an evil and cruel society after all).

The Kobold has a soul, that travels to the outer planes after death.

Why (outside of blatant racism) would the Paladin fall for slaying the juman guard begging for his life, but not the Kobold one.

Should a DM ever assume that a paladin has omni-knowledge of every man-eating guard's personal story, it would obviously be a DM trap.

Oh, so its only evil when you have empathy for the creature youre about to slay? But assuming that its just a 'gamist' mook or minion then its OK?

Every creature has a backstory (life).

Just like every soldier has one.

Go to war and take a PoW. When it becomes too hard to keep him prisoner then shoot him in the face.

If that shit doesnt haunt you for the rest of your days, then you arent human.

Dont search him, cause you might find photos of his wife and kids. You know; he might become a person.

Its an evil act in real life, just like in game. You'd know it, your God certainly knows it, and I as the DM know it.

The creature was 'evil'; it was planning to poison its superior officers family as paybacks. It lacked empathy for the kids down in the dungeon, and for its dead companions and relatives.

Does that mean that it can be ruthlessly executed out of hand?

Not in my world.

Agree to disagree if you want, but thats the standard I hold Paladins too, lethal force is Ok in the defence of yourself and others, but you should strive to live by more than just your sword - you should stive to set an example, avoid acts of wanton butchery and slaughter, have empathy and mercy for your enemies and friends a like, and strive to always be the better man.

Invaders who were morally justified to be there, and to their credit attempted a non violent means of resolving the situation (before the language barrier got in the way).

Evil? No.

No more evil than any soldier fighting a just cause against an evil enemy.

When the executions began, things changed. The moral high ground was lost, and they became little better than those they fought.

redcelt32 wrote:

Sounds like leadership is a mandatory feat then, so the paladin has someone to babysit all the lying scheming NPCs who ask for mercy, waiting for the chance to stab the party in the back. Since they can't be killed and it would be foolish to release them before everything is over, you need someone to babysit them. The only thing worse than falling for killing a helpless victim would be falling because you left him tied up and something came along and ate him. After all, that would be a mark on him since he was reponsible for its safety.

How is it any worse to have given him a dagger and have him run off, only to get magic missiled in the back or run through from behind by the barbarian? Is it okay because the paladin's hands aren't the ones directly getting dirty? If so, fantastic, we have our preferred method of execution now.

Heres a test, what would the kobold do if it ran across a helpless human child after fleeing the party? If the paladin can't honestly answer "leave it alone or help it", then killing this destructive evil creature should be justified. Remember, the paladin in this example is chasing down child kidnapping kobolds, not some random one out in the woods foraging for his family.

If you want to follow these high paladin ideals, you have to give the paladin some parameters. Making the same standards apply to known evil races as you would apply to a neutral with evil tendencies human bandit is not fair to the paladin or his party. Is he going to bring back a troll who covers his face and cowers in the corner? Let it go so it can come up behind and eat the cleric in the next heated battle? What are his choices here really?

When I was playing a good knight character fighting in the elven wars and taking plenty of drow hostages, I found that K.O via subdual and roping them up worked well.

Leadership feat? Just hire some common camp guards, they are very poorly paid and need to unionise, but they can guard a bound prisoner.

You want the...

Dont mention roleplaying on here.

A few people get confused by the term.

Pugwampi wrote:

It was crying and pleading for it's life? Wow... that's... Yeah, good call, man.

To be fair, there are going to be times when bad guys will cry and plead for their lives when they've been captured, but won't hesitate to stab the Paladin in the back the instant he shows mercy and/or drops his guard.

But that's why I always take plenty of ranks in sense motive when I play a Paladin. Paladins need to be righteous, but that doesn't include an obligation to play the sucker when dealing with all the unrighteous folks out there.

Paladins are good, theyre not stupid.

No Paladin would turn his back on the evil BBEG thats just surrendered simply because he surrendered, no matter what the slimy weasel promised.

Better yet, roleplay the conversation whereby you show him the error of his ways. Try and bring him to the light via your deeds and actions. Try and redeem the bastard first or failing that bring him to justice when its safe to do so:

"Malazar, for your crimes alone, by all rights should die here today. But I shall allow you mercy that you and I know in your heart of hearts you would not allow me and my companions should our positions be reversed. Even though you have engaged in unspeakable evils, I offer you a chance to cast aside the dark path you have taken, and embrace a life of good and righteousness"

etc etc

Think Luke turning Darth from evil (for another SW analogy). And Lukes refusal to strike Darth down when he had him at his mercy (knowing it would likely lead to Lukes own death).

People always act as if the Paladin code is a straight jaceket; its not - its a roleplaying opportunity.