I'd give them a _chance_ to figure out someone's looking for it. Every so often, make one of the kingdom events pertain to the ongoing efforts of the bad guys to find this item. Let them hear rumors of the search efforts (initially, the PCs hear that evil groups are looking for _something_; and only with time will they discover what exactly these villains are looking for).
And maybe, the PCs will get spooked, and will search for the item themselves (to make a better effort at concealing it, or to lock it away somewhere more secure), only to have a PC-quality gang of villains ambush them and steal the item, prompting a new mini-campaign to recover it and destroy it forever!
Hope this helps. ^_^
Franklin
I really do appreciate the help. If magic wasn't such a big thing in Pathfinder, you'd be dead on. But at the levels we're getting into (10th), anyone who knows about it would have the resources to get it with minimal hassle. Waterbreathing, scrying, teleporting, disintegrating the iron around it: all options. There wouldn't be anyone seen asking around or physically searching for it.
That's the other problem: even if there were signs, they aren't keeping an eye on it. At all. Not even an alarm spell on the thing. So I don't know how they're to find out until its too late.
I guess I'm also wondering who would go after it. Nyrissa and Irovetti are both the wrong alignment. Maybe a thanadaemon? Or maybe it just sits there and becomes a background threat, the evil leeching into and affecting the land, people, and animals like a curse.
Or something goofy like a NE megalodon just showing up in the lake with it, luring whole communities into the water ... or just blasting fishermen with eye-lasers.
So, my players beat Vordakai and got his Oculus of Abaddon. I made it clear to them that it's pretty dang powerful, completely evil, and has a malign intelligence.
Immediate low-effort attempts to destroy it obviously fail. One resisted the urge to play amateur eye surgeon on himself. Without even bothering to find out how to destroy it, they decided to just encase the thing in molten iron and dump it in the lake. Problem totally solved.
But let's be real. It wants to be found, forces that serve Abaddon know about it, and it isn't even in enough iron to block detect magic. Another year passes in kingdom building and they aren't keeping tabs on it.
So here's my question to the community: what do you think should happen here? Who might find it? Would it be taken elsewhere to sow misery or turned on the PCs again? Would it affect the environment/land over the year? How should this come back on them, if it does at all? I don't wish to be cruel but it does seem they've taken the lazy way out with no safeguards.
If it helps: the party is an occultist, paladin, sorcerer, and a skald. Thanks kindly.
Luther, you wouldn't happen to have the rules for Helskarg's car and/or her more mechanically minded self available would you?
Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Didn't think anyone would ask. I ad hoc'd it mostly. It had a pinch of narrative armor and would work until it took enough damage at a dramatically appropriate moment to make a fun fireball.
But if you still want to recreate it for a later thing: just make it 2x3x1 squares, provide improved cover to those inside, make it Fast with a capital 'f', give it three big buckets of hitpoints, add somewhere like 10-12 hardness, give it a good trample or ram attack, and stir well. Make it dangerous as hell to drive and with seats/steering built for a large-sized troll. If they take possession of it, it should be fun but difficult to drive and will likely fall apart before it becomes too much of a nuisance for the DM.
I'd say it has one good dramatic entry, smashing through the wall of the baddies' lair, before it becomes useless.
So the actual vehicle rules aren't too hard but I wanted to do something special in this fight for my group.
Since this whole module is METAL on multiple levels and the arena looks like a place to hold monster truck rallies, I replaced the chariot with a very okry cobbled together demolition derby car. If people are figuring out how to build robots in this setting I figure a simple combustion engine isn't out of sorts. So a more mechanically-minded version of Helskarg entered combat by ramping up over the party while pyrotechnics erupted and heavy metal played over the speakers. Some captured rust-risen were sprinkled in to distract the PCs and give something else for Helskarg to run over while she desperately tried not to crash. She stuck one arm out the window and used one of those grappler gun things to snag PCs and drag them behind the car.
The car exploded as soon as they won but Helskarg survived and they wound up being friends, oddly enough. It was all to put on a good show, after all. I just wanted something awesome.
Possible, but there was no mention of the method while there was mention of the target. There was only the word "cast". Still, rod or no, it's an effective 13th level spell - I said nothing about it being impossible. The point was along Elamdri's: that's a lot of spellpower just to un-magic one magic item!
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that a quickened mage's disjunction would be a 13th level spell. Holy crap, that's some impressive magic being thrown around!
Agreed with MurphysParadox. That "and" was either meant to be an "or" or it was just bad and unclear parsing on the writer's part.
That PC is on the verge of being dangerously cheesy.
If that -were- the case then we'd be seeing more lich-pires in the bad guys' ranks, since that ability even acknowledges that such a choice would be popular in the game world.
I'm just wondering why the DM allowed the PC to take the prestige class in the first place. It's not really meant for PCs/Heroes.
Nothing is really original anymore if you dissect it enough. Everyone is going to see -something- that makes them draw a parallel between a given subject and something else whether it's from a pop culture icon like Blade or the stories that Albanian gypsies told hundreds of years ago.
Every once in a while something is going to seem 'too familiar'. But typically that's just a result of there only being so many stories in the world.
Honestly, I see the parallel and I still don't care. I can get over it. It's not like Neil named the guy "Edalb" or anything.
Balkan mythology origins. If there was any copying then Blade copied off of the dhampir, not the other way around.
Unless you're referring to the specific dhampir NPC that appears in AaD, in which case the archetype he's representing was hardly original in either him or Blade.
"Born of both worlds, sired by a monster and now he hunts monsters, stalks the night to put them down, yadda yadda." That whole deal was done long before Wesley Snipes showed up in all black.
If you have Bestiary 3 then Pale Strangers could work, they are essentially undead gunslingers. Cannon golems could work. Anything from the clockwork creatures could work as well. If you don't have access to the book you can always look at the PFSRD.
There isn't really that much that just screams it is from Alkenstar. A lack of material from that place.
Though I'm inclined to go with TOZ on this one mechanically, I think I'm with Exocrat on the fluff. I like the idea that Bless doesn't do a darn thing... it's just a placebo effect.
Divination is the bane of storytelling and suspense if not properly prepared for. You essentially have three options.
#1) If you're worried about it messing things up then just fudge Estovian's save as a pass. It won't be entirely negating the PC as they can still gain plenty of info from the other guests. Then you can have him figure it out and raise his paranoia score. In which case he may become "entirely too busy" and avoid speaking to the PC in question when possible to not give them another chance.
#2) If you want to be fair about it then go by the rules. He has a high save, chances are he'll pass. Otherwise give them some info. Have him make that sense motive check. He might be paranoid enough to purposefully try to avoid thinking about it. They have to know what to ask for first and it's always simple and general information. They won't get his -entire- set up and plan.
#3) If you're worried and want to be fair then just rearrange some of Estovian's feats and give him Improved Iron Will so he can re-roll his save if he fails. If he somehow fails twice then see #2.
Also, remember that Seek Thoughts isn't conclusive proof and Estovian can always play innocent and seek protection from the other lodge guests if the PCs just attack him. "He's guilty because I read his mind!" is not exactly compelling evidence. Otherwise it's just a lead that they can follow up on for more investigation. If they make shorter work of the investigation than you expect then just accelerate the timetable.
Treat it as a hook. Have him think about his journal in his room (appearing as an image) and the empathetic feeling of nervousness as a potential answer, thus prompting investigation. Nothing says the answer must be entirely straightforward. If they try to get more specific and ask about his secret journal... well, that's kind of a giveaway. Give them just enough info to follow up on. It's a means, not an end.
Flak, simply put: class bloat. Not everyone is scrambling for new base classes. You'd have to find a different enough niche for them to fill that isn't already covered. If you want to play a primarily martial (or martial-ish) character with a manageable limited resource then I can just point you to the barbarian, paladin, cavalier, gunslinger, magus, monk, samurai, or ninja.
Edit: also, this thread is about improving existing classes, not inventing new ones.
Flak, the reason we don't have have two "fighters" is because at the moment of divergence the new thing just becomes a new class entirely. Adding a whole new mechanic is a little too much to make a single archetype out of as well.
DeathQuaker, your points are based on personal preference while the original poster just wanted ways and possible idea as to improve the fighter and rogue in general. I was simply trying to facilitate what Kolokotroni was trying to say as it seemed you either were not getting it or refusing to. I was taking general player appeal into consideration and it seems the majority of players prefer a dynamic system over a static one.
That being said, I do realize the need to have a class that doesn't keep track of things. There is an elegance in its simplicity that should not be disturbed. There should be a class for every playstyle and one of those is wanting to be the consistent character. I'm in your camp, the fighter should stay passive. I was just playing devil's advocate for a moment :P
I would also be curious in learning why you hate(x10) the grit system so much. On another thread or through PMs, of course, as it is off-topic. There are a few things I don't care for (such as the "blast lock" deed and having to pay a grit point to freakin' pistol whip) but I'm alright with it.
Oh! I also had an idea. What if we gave the fighter (and rogue) the ability to do extra things on high skill check results not normally available to other classes. Such as: if a fighter exceeds a certain skill check by 10 or more he can do either X,Y, or Z as well. I think someone said something similar. It could be additional skill-based fighter talents that give you more options with those skills (the phyiscial ones, of course). I agree with everyone who is saying the fighter has too few skill points. What is it about picking up a sword that makes you suck at everything else?
If we don't make his mechanics more dynamic then can we make his performance on the battlefield more dynamic? I think stunt-like fighter talents could be a direction to go in. Once you choose them they are "always on" because they simply enable a new skill or combat option that could be used whenever. Just anything to get them out of the "I stand there and full attack" rut.
DeathQuaker, I understand where you are coming from. I'm in your camp. I want martial characters to have nice things but there is a certain truth in what Kolokotroni says. In Pathfinder, when you start hitting the mid-level range, the fighter and the wizard begin playing two very different games. Purely martial resources like feats and fighter class abilities just pale in comparison to a wizard's capabilities -unless- of course, the fighter makes up the difference in power by making judicious use of magical items and enchanting his gear. Even that is a concession to using magic. Some are fine with that, but anyone and any class can use those items.
Kolokotroni is suggesting implementing something like a per day resource for the fighter. It doesn't have to be reskinned magic unless you're just determined to look at it that way. Call it Reserves or Inner Strength or just Bad-ass points if it makes you giggle. Regardless, this should be something that the fighter can tap into when he really needs it but it really taxes his body so he can't do it that often. Think of that tradition of grand moments of heroism where Beowulf rips off Grendel's arm or when Éowyn delivered the killing blow to the Witch-king. It's that critical, deciding moment that showcases the fighter's heroism which they had to dig deep to accomplish.
The mechanics can be up to you (temporary DR, big bonuses to physical scores, blocking out all pain to gain temporary hp) but the idea remains the same. It's just like rounds of rage for a barbarian or grit for a gunslinger or challenges for a cavalier. There's no hocus-pocus there, it's all coming from the fighter. It's something to compliment his natural abilities, not replace them. The fighter has heroism.
Edit: That all being said, I really like the idea of your fighter talents, DeathQuaker. I wasn't aware there was a minority but if the fighter had to be revised (which seems to be what the OP is asking) then I'd like to see something dynamic added to it, not just more static bonuses. Everyone seems to think the two are mutually exclusive. Why not let the fighter keep his existing toys (with a few tweaks) -and- have the nifty limited resource? Nothing he couldn't function without, of course, but something to make him truly shine when he needs to.
Semblance of Life is a favorite of mine among these. DMs would be able to disguise a vampire without loading him up with protective magic items, which suspicious PCs would just remove if they truly suspected the vampire and could capture him. Best part about it is that it can't be taken away. Of course, without the ability to survive sunlight the feat is very limited. Suspicious players (and possibly NPCs) will likely just haul the suspected vampire into the light just to make sure. This defeats what seems to be the purpose of the feat: to mitigate and throw off suspicion.
Perhaps a second feat after that one which grants (limited) protection from the sun (and similar effects/spells)? Obviously it would only be available to the most powerful vampires.
Nothing saps the scariness from vampires like the various sunlight-based spells available to PCs around those levels that translate into SoD insta-death for them. Normal vampires? Sure. The vampire elder? Shouldn't be -quite- that easy.
Dotted for interest. When I have more time I may contribute with a few nasty examples from a Grimtooth-esque dungeon I made some time ago... provided I can find the thing. I managed to befuddle/scare a mid-to-high-level group (caster and rogue included) with purely mechanical traps. No magic, just deviousness.
I'm also in the process of developing an exceedingly unfair dungeon done in the spirit of Tucker's Kobolds. I'd like to share it, but my players might be watching. Maybe through notes or once I've ran them through it? :P
...how exactly are the ghouls hiding under the wagon, if the Paladin is also lying beneath it?
They aren't, the book says they are hiding under the hay -in- the wagon, which is described as near busting with the load of straw it bears. The idea was that the rogue ghouls burst from out of the very wagon that the PCs are conveniently flatfooted holding up, allowing sneak attack and possibly paralysis. A coup de grace may soon follow as it did in my game, that's how one of my PCs died.
In your case there may likely be a third, well equipped ghoul in the next attack... or ghast, really, considering he had more than 5 HD.
I'm putting personal opinions and preferences on what should constitute "sanity breaking" and when aside, that could go on for days between two people.
Instead, the very simple answer here is that Paizo wanted to include a sanity mechanic in the "Lovecrafty" module and didn't bother to really explain the sore thumb. Why should they? Players can suspend disbelief (well, most players). They tried to sneak an orange into the apple basket. That's it. No real deeper reason. It works so long as you don't think too hard about it.
Your second paragraph explains a lot, though. HPL was all about the hopelessness. You seem to be more of a Derleth person which is nothing wrong but is, as I said, a flavor very different from what HPL wrote and intended.
In Lovecraft's stories those things exist but the normal, sane people aren't aware of them. The ones that are tend to be the already crazy cultists or hermits or vagabonds. They are neither pervasive nor common knowledge like in Pathfinder so their revelation is more of a big deal.
It is not an issue of player knowledge versus character knowledge. I am not talking about my players here but in-character rationalization. They're fine with the idea if it were consistent throughout the AP. It's just the idea of suddenly being affected when their characters (read: in character) have faced equally bad things before without the same problem. The insanity sidebar on page 29 even says as much but that, for some reason, these critters are "another thing entirely". It fails to explain how or why, so that falls to the DM to explain. Hence my initial quandary as to how I will convey that.
Also, Conan is nice and all and I'm a real fan... but it really is an entirely different flavor of the mythos.
Nathonicus has hit the nail square on the head. If you want to go the way HPL would then don't try to ooga-booga them to insanity or even fridge-horror them to it with implications. Instead, you'd attack their understanding of how the universe works and turn everything on its head. Since that is very difficult to show the best you can do is abstract it and convey the idea to the players.
They leave a room, take two lefts, and wind up back in the same room.
They enter a square room. There is a pentagram in the center with an arm stretching to each corner.
The other people they've been chasing around the circular dungeon and can never seem to catch are actually them. The people that also seem to be chasing them but never catch up are also actually them.
Usually in these stories it's when their minds try to make sense of such things that they break.
At least you could do that if it wasn't for pre-existing (and known) magic, outsiders, and crazy supernatural stuff subverting the natural laws. Put next to all that, it sort of loses its punch when everything can be rationalized with "a wizard did it". Considering how often wizards (and other casters) do crazy things in APs, it wouldn't be an unreasonable assumption. I'm starting to think that Pathfinder (and fantasy in general, especially high magic fantasy) is ill-suited to this flavor of horror.
Yeah, horrible realizations are one thing... until you think about all the horrible realizations that have been made in the past.
Trial of the Beast:
Like the fact that it was a skin-stealer behind a lot of stuff for example. Finding the cabinet of skins of faces, seeing Vorkstag "in the nude", and the realization that they could have been talking with this thing while it was wearing someone's skin like a suit might have been appropriate for sanity loss if they were in WotW.
It isn't that I'll have problems convincing them that WotW events could be sanity breaking. The problem will be that I have to convince them of that while the rest of the stuff in the AP somehow isn't.
Sanity loss for monsters doing horrible things? Please. Welcome to Ustalav, how long have you been here? Evil monsters do horrible things all the time, that's what makes them evil monsters and yet at no other point in the AP as written does it break someone's mind for it.
For you or me, yes, that would be pretty mentally rattling to find out. For jaded players (and jaded adventurers) I'm afraid it's just too late in the game to try and pull this. I mean, look at what they've been through by now. Maybe if the sanity rules were brought out in the first or second module it would explain why the PCs are doing all this. "Adventurer" seems like an apt name for a disorder.
When you hit the same group of characters with horror after horror eventually they're not going to be quite as affected by it anymore. To -now- have things start affecting them on this level seems... ham-fisted.
I'll talk to them and see how they feel about it. I might just have to do as Biobeast did and scrap sanity rules entirely because I could easily understand where they're coming from at this point in the game. It's hard to pretend that everything now "gets to you" when the horrible stuff before didn't. I think a few things in WotW might surprise them (such as exploding head action) but it wouldn't quite be reality shattering.
Right, seeking a little advice here... once again on the whole sanity loss thing. I have a good framework set out now I just need to address the whole believability issue.
For the various things that offer possible sanity loss I'm gonna have to think of how to describe what is happening in a way that makes it more acceptable to them. What angle should I approach instead of just "it looks horrible". I'd like to be able to give them something more than the old cop-out of saying: "too horrible for words!" and handwaiving it.
Otherwise I'm going to get the inevitable "but we've been fighting crazy monsters all the time, what makes -this- so bad?". And they'd be right. Look at all the crazy stuff in Schloss Caromarc they've been through.
Sanity loss in games like Call of Cthulhu is often for the normal Joe who has never seen a monster. It isn't for adventurers who (at this point) have been around the block.
I have something ready for the shambler but that's about it. Any thoughts?
@Dubiousnessocity
Yeah, that's the reason I'm going to be striking psychosis from the list of possible insanities they can contract... maybe amnesia too. Too much potential for catastrophic derailment/party-wipe. It's one thing to have a wipe, another entirely for it to be caused by another PC. I have a Fighter/Barbarian in my own group who I'm fairly certain can finish off at least one or two other PCs real quick.
Untyped bonuses are rarer but they stack (as in any bonus that does not specifically say what kind it is). Circumstance bonuses stack as well, methinks. Just about everything else does not stack if it is the same kind, instead you just take the highest.
"The external walls and roof are comprised of two 1-foot thick stone walls sandwiching two 3 inch-thick iron walls, which themselves sandwich a thin layer of lead sheeting to foil detection spells and spells that affect stone walls."
This sounds like the kind of guy who'd have the means for mindblank if he's that paranoid and that willing to pour out the kingdom's coffers for secrecy.
Cheap and unfeasible too. This is why I'm all for letting it work a couple of times. As a player I wouldn't want to feel like the usefulness of the spell is nullified by the DM. The spell gets a use and the rest of the villains get to learn a valuable lesson about that little combo. They either get their s&#& together or become another victim.
Things tend to get a lot easier when you realize you can work with PCs instead of just against them, even in things that seem lose/lose for you. It takes a lot less force to deflect something in the right direction than trying to stop it entirely... generates a lot less friction too :P
I'm shamed to say that it may have taken me too long to learn that. I was always the "Yes you can" DM. Now I'm the "Yes, but..." one.
@Gentleman ... every time I say your name I feel like Dr. Weird.
Kingmaker Spoiler Stuffs:
Firstly, I was wrong. The CoT villain had an amulet of proof against detection and location (which is even cheaper and more feasible for a villain to have really).
Secondly, Gregori is a trip, isn't he? It seems like Kingmaker is just filled with trolls of one form or another. :P
The first possible target for their magical blitzkrieg might be Drelev. Actually I would encourage this but only after the attack on Tatzlford. Let them know early as possible that poor, nearly defenseless Tatzlford would be in dire straits if they don't immediately intervene. Hopping in to zap Drelev would be a bad idea as he's likely surrounded by powerful members of his court but if they try it then it would set a precedent. They would begin developing a reputation for that tactic unless they take the time to kill everyone in Fort Drelev (unlikely, and if they do adjust alignments accordingly). It may suck to lose the stuff about infiltrating the castle but from then on you'd have a reason that future villains would be prepared for that. Drelev could be the bone to throw them, just let them know that such a tactic is a more likely party wipe as they're more likely to have to face everything at once.
That could be a way to talk to them as well out of game: tell them that excessive use of that tactic bypasses a lot of fun encounters, roleplaying and otherwise. Yeah, the eagles could have taken Frodo right to Mount Doom at the beginning but then there'd be no adventure.
Irovetti is another story. He's wealthy, runs a nation, has enemies, and is waist-deep in political intrigue. Those reasons alone are enough for him to have an amulet of proof against detection and location and the fact that he's Up-To-No-Good (tm) with his plans only reinforces the need for it. Easy fix.
As for Armag, he's a bit trickier. The whole barrel of laughs that is his part to play is too good to just skip over. As written, he doesn't have much defense against it but his whole section is just too fun. When they learn his name and try to scry, just have some crazy ancestor spirit interdict the scrying party on his behalf (or something disguised as one, there are some powerful forces at work around him :P). Instead of getting the cheap way out, you can taunt them with the spirit and have it show them the cave entrance/camp. Make it a sort of "You want him? Well come and get him." Have those barbarians throw down the gauntlet and make it insulting. All future attempts fail, but their first one was rewarded by them now knowing a foe and where they can find him. They can't teleport to his inner sanctum, but they can teleport to the start of that dungeon. Be sure to hint that things may be time sensitive, as always.
They should not even know Nyrissa's name anytime soon. The only thing they might have of hers is the cursed ring of animal friendship and that should take care of itself if they try and use it to scry. Might even discourage further attempts. Keep her enigmatic, as she should be, for a time and you'll be fine.
Start looking at scrying as a possible plot hook and method to deliver information (ala Armag) and drive the party along and not the easy back-door in to be always thwarted. Remember, ultimately you control what they learn from it, if anything at all.
Of course, I realize I say all this without really knowing your PCs. I don't know if they'd be willing to change habits for the sake of storytelling (and keeping a sane DM) or if they're more the sort who like to kick in the door and kill the bad guy in the most efficient way possible.
Identity protection can only help up until the point where they learn the real name/get the lock of hair/know everything about the villain. This shouldn't happen until you're looking at the endgame for that particular evil-doer.
I am fairly familiar with Kingmaker and probably some of the villains you have in mind. If you wish, we could discuss it in spoiler tags or possibly another spoiler-marked thread and the specific villains with the realistic precautions they may (or may not) take. I suspect I know where your PCs may be in the story :P
Truly, as a player, you don't have any guarantee that you'll get the person you mean... especially if you aren't even certain who you mean. That's all DM judgement territory.
If a player of mine were to scry on someone with information based on a disguise or false information they would either get whoever the person was disguised as (if they were disguised as someone specific) or it might fail. Alternatively they might get someone else entirely who fits the given description (with more vague descriptions getting a more random result). The magic works off of user input, it is subject to user error.
Gentleman, to be fair you never specified a CR range or how important the hypothetical villain was. You said that your PCs are mid-level and asked for villain protection against scrying. At mid-levels we're talking about villains who need to be worthy of the PCs' attention. These are paranoid bastards who have accumulated wealth, if not equally valuable connections. Anyone less would have been taken out by this point in their villainous career by lower level do-gooders.
Teensy tiny Council of Thieves spoiler:
Heck, one of the main villains of CoT had a ring of mind blank and was not a caster. That campaign never gets above 13th level, so there's already a Paizo mid-level precedent for you.
I simply assumed you were talking about a serious villain with resources here, not Joe the commoner who wants to do bad things. However, there's always the respectable villain-on-a-budget.
As rkraus2 said, lookalikes can work well. The PCs know what the villain looks like and they teleport in to a plaza filled with dozens and dozens of him... who all run in every direction. Ever seen V For Vendetta? Something like that. Simple mundane disguises foil trueseeing.
Frequently changing disguises could help if your villain is sufficiently paranoid. What are your PCs trying to learn from scrying? Do they want to know exactly who the villain is based on a name? Scrying for someone's identity can be thwarted by simply having them wear a mask. Do they just want to know what he's up to? Just show him playing chess or eating or having a normal conversation. Villains only spend about 5% of their day doing bad things. They usually have underlings for the real dirty-work, they live lives too.
If you want to stop scry and fry, try bringing in non-mechanical measures. Make the villain someone untouchable (or virtually so). A powerful political figure or someone the community couldn't function without. The idea that they would risk imprisonment or execution or indirectly hurting many other people may deter them from acting rashly without proof. Let them know in game that if they try that then there will be consequences.
If all else fails and you remain frustrated, take it out of game and remind them they can be scried and fried too. This is a simple concept of Mutually Assured Destruction. I have a policy of detente with my players on things like mage's disjunction, feeblemind, and other things that would just ruin a player's day or make things anti-climactic. Usually these are the things that a player looks at and says "wow, I would really hate to have this used against me, there'd be no fun in this". I don't tell them they cannot do it, just that I won't if they don't. If they breach that then they become viable targets for it as well.
Or, and this might sound crazy, if we're talking about minor villains who can be expendable... let a scry and fry work once or twice. The players don't want to feel stymied at every turn. Not all villains are created equal. Toss them a win in the form of a dumb and unprepared foe and -then- bring out the big guns.
Just about every mid to high level villain worth his or her salt has access to the spell mind blank in one form or another as either regular castings or on a ring or some such. Yes, it's a high level spell but any respectable long-term villain can get a hold of it one way or another. It lasts 24 hours per casting and foils any attempts at scrying (even those backed by miracle or wish). It's essentially the "Protect Villain's Identity" button.
No scry and fry for your PCs. No anti-climactic save-or-suck from half a continent away. No need to impose some limitation on your PCs. Let them scry all they want, it won't do anything. They have to get your BBEG the old fashioned way.
Anything else you need to know to protect your big-bad's nefarious dealings against those pesky heroes?
Inspire courage is a mind-affecting effect (the whole thing, so they shouldn't even be getting the competence bonus). How are the animated undead being affected by it? Normally they should not be. I call shenanigans.
Otherwise try a golem?
One of the most terrifying kinds of encounters are against enemies with a good plan and solid tactics. Look up Tuckers Kobolds for an idea of what I mean. I can think of a laundry list of dirty and mundane tricks that, say, a group of wily rogues can employ to foil a caster heavy party.
Does the party use any other notable tactics aside from buffing like crazy? If they keep sticking to the same methods then chances are enemies will soon wise up and plan accordingly.
I had a bladebound magus in my game who recently died. Before that I was planning on his mysterious sword turning out to be Corpselight. Looks like great minds think alike! X3
You're asking if one could use bluff instead of intimidate on the check involved with the spell. Since Taunt allows the use of the bluff skill instead of intimidate when making demoralize actions I see no problem with it. The spell calls for a check to demoralize using intimidate and would not work under the assumption that the user has the feat.
I would allow this. It's thematic, the action uses a spell and requires a feat just to use it in that way. It's certainly not game-breaking.
In the Beginner's Box Bash: Relics PDF I've noticed something about the picture on page 3. Has anyone else noticed that the "runes" atop each column are just characters from the Daedric alphabet from the Elder Scrolls games?
I know this is tiny and I don't like to nit-pick but I'm just curious, what's the legal department say on this? I know companies can be really strict on their intellectual property.
A perimeter alarm that creates an explosion. Your oracle may not hear it but the concussive force should create enough vibration to feel in both the ground and his chest. Ever been to a fireworks display? You don't just hear it, you -feel- it. Use fireworks. Nothing says "welcome to my lair" like getting your face blown off with pazazz.
It'll disorient and possibly damage, buying those precious rounds. Firework traps can be easily scaled, just add more of them if needed. Also it's an explosion, which makes it awesome.
What feat adds DEX to damage? I'm aware of Weapon Finesse, which adds DEX to hit and I'm aware of the Agile magic weapon special ability which lets you add DEX to weapon damage rolls. I'm also aware of one or two class abilities that let you do that but I'm not aware of a feat that lets you add DEX to damage.
All out could be fun, though I should remain mindful of making it too easy to wipe. I've already figured on choosing which ailments would work best with each PC (and would make the module most interesting) so I'm prepared there. I suppose my concern was with the sub-system as written.
Yeah, I guess I found the fixed DC 15 a little odd too, I think I'll be using your adjusted DCs. I also see that your campaign has overtaken mine, as last I recall I was forewarning you of Broken Moon encounters and now I'm asking you for advice :P
Well that's what happens when you have 5 players, tends to go a little slower.
So, when a character hits 0 sanity points they receive a random insanity from the GMG (which I have access to). Does anything else happen? They don't seem to go unconscious as it isn't ability damage.
It seems that, if cured, their sanity points are fully restored. If you only receive mental ailments from total sanity loss (barring other sources like the spell) does this mean that you can only have one random insanity from this optional sub-system?
Granted that some ailments like amnesia are enough (total loss of class abilities? Ye-ouch!). However it's equally possible to get off with a phobia of something and otherwise be fully functional despite having no sanity points.
I think stark-raving-mad when I think of 0 SAN, nothing even approaching socially functional. Further, most of the ailments have a long onset so there's no real immediate effect of seeing such horror. This is less sanity-blasting and more shruggable-but-will-get-to-you-later. Maybe this is a feature and not a bug but I honestly think it should be both lest the whole Lovecraft angle be underrepresented as more annoyance than horror.
Receiving an illness is nice but there should be something more immediate and impacting as well. Any ideas? How have you guys ran this/made an impact when the big things happen?
The obvious one:
You know, like when seeing the manifestation of Shub-Niggurath in mid-combat.
Ditto. To my knowledge there is nothing in any product that details the family in depth. You might have to do what a few others and myself have done and make stuff up.
Ever read Fall of the House of Usher? I'm drawing heavily from that. Nice and tragic with Adivion playing the part of Roderick as his house falls apart around him. Probably the last scion and, like his inspiration, is swiftly on the path of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I'm fine with this new alchemist. I've always liked the class and the mental image of 40 dudes that all look the same flying around with banjos singing the "Totally Not a Trap" song. It's about as visually silly as AM and that makes me smile.
The fact that you've budgeted for the goggles that do nothing other than look cool is just icing.
Of course, we are talking about an ability that grants immunity from all spells that allow SR, -not- something that functions -as- spell resistance. Is it subject to the same loophole?
Seems as though it functions like a golem's magic immunity, with the exception of magic missile and maze spells, anything that allows SR would not affect the character.
Items tend to duplicate spells, if the spell in question allows SR then no, the item would not affect them.
For example: boots of speed duplicate the effects of haste (in its item description). Haste allows SR, so no. The boots do nothing.
When you're immune to magic you also have to deal with, well, being immune to magic.
EDIT: Interesting. I think I know what you're talking about FireclawDrake. I did think that was quite odd.
ToTB spoiler:
Then again, the Beast is a rather unique golem. Most golems also are not affected by mind effecting affects. I think he may just be an exception.
Double edit: Aha! Abraham found the loophole. Critters with such immunity can benefit from magic items, just not buffing spells cast by others. Time to bedeck your golems.
After reading the past few pages I've decided that the next wizard BBEG I make will be named Maddigan. He will be gloriously arrogant and condescending to everyone, even other wizards.
The megalomania aspect is already written. The funny part is that this isn't even a jab. I kept reading his posts and thinking: "this guy would make a wonderful villain." I'm gonna market this sucker.
Every G.I. Joe needs a Cobra Commander.
Every He-Man needs a Skeletor.
Every AM BARBARIAN needs a Maddigan.
I already have plans for action figures. Red LED lights in his eyes for when he rages. A tiny speaker for corny sound effects and catch-phrases (note to self: need catch-phrases). Little motors for BATTY BAT's wings. Now I really want to see something like a Saturday morning cartoon or, better yet, a wonderfully cheesy live-action show.
This thread has been thoroughly entertaining AND useful.
I was responding more to the potential of thread derailment that politics begs for...
Fair enough, preemptive strike and all that. The thread already seemed derailed what with the talk of nonsensical reflex saves in heavy armor. Still, I'm not used to attempts to diffuse derailments by treating it like it's a charging bull. Seemed like a bit of an overreaction to me. Oh well, internet for ya :P
Back on track, looks like Abraham is right on that one. Well there goes my theory. Still, I don't think a couple of archetypes break anything. I'm alright with martialish characters being awesome. Either way, it looks like most people are okay with the ring ignoring armor restrictions... to answer the original question.
Wish I had thought of conveying that angle more when my PCs were running through it... though it may have seemed a little ham-fisted considering that he has much more obvious concerns when the players meet him.
Whoa, WHOA! Let's keep this civil and keep public education out of it, okay, friend?
I don't really see anything uncivil about his post... maybe mildly antagonistic towards hypothetical responses. Then again, that was more of a what-if than anything. I'm chalking this up to the lack of tone for context that text-only communication is often plagued by. It leaves people too quick to see an offense that wasn't meant (or isn't there at all). For the record: I'm speaking fairly dispassionately.
My two cents: I would allow the ring to function regardless of armor. Its a heavy investment in both gold and the valuable ring slot. Besides, as a magic item I have no problem with it helping to guide or push a full-plate fighter out of the way. Not really game breaking.
I think Happler has the right idea in that those who are more prone to wear heavy armor have a lower reflex save progression. Not perfect, but it might be a better way to look at/model the max DEX to AC vs. reflex save discrepancy.
I do agree that the whole scorching ray/lightning bolt analogy makes it look pretty silly. But then again there are no rules for momentum, how gravity affects projectiles, or how the tea prices in Tian affect the battle. Pathfinder isn't exactly the best model for realistic simulations nor does it try to be or need to be.
TL;DR Evasion ring is valuable and should function regardless of armor. Pathfinder isn't perfect.
Well I did think of one amusing thing... but I don't believe it could work because it requires too many levels. Use an Arcane Archer to imbue one of his arrows with antimagic field. You can even imbue arrows with spells that normally can only target the caster, like AMF. AMF is an area spell and legal by imbue arrow's requirements. AM would become the target of the spell. AMF offers no save. AM could not spell sunder the AMF because spell sunder is a supernatural ability and AMF supresses supernatural abilities. The only real question is: does the AMF move with AM because he is the new target or does it stay static wherever he was hit by the arrow?
One of the archer's levels would have to be diviner wizard so he can act in the surprise round but with imbue arrows you can cast the spell and make the attack as a standard action. One would only have to ready the action for when AM is visible and can be targeted. I suppose the archer may still be hit by the RAGELANCEPOUNCE but at least he can't spell sunder things... I assume it would also mess him up in other ways.
I don't think I'm as rules-savvy as others here so someone else can do the math but I don't think it would work without being higher than 20th level. You'd have to be a 2nd level arcane archer (at least) who can cast AMF. Still, I thought it was an amusing thought as he couldn't spell sunder the thing that was keeping him from spell sundering it.
Aside from the high level restriction, am I missing anything that would prevent this from working? Is this an avenue worth exploring? I know it certainly won't kill AM but at least it makes him a little less scary or may even give the archer a shot at it. :P
