Lokius |
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Most of the problems with D&D (any edition) and Pathfinder is the fact that they are level-based systems. People in real life do not grow in such a steady progression. Instead, they tend to focus on an interest for a while, or have a major life experience which forces them to adapt. Real people tend to remain fundamentally squishy throughout their entire lives. In real life, a arrow shot by a 1st level kobold would kill a 20th level paladin just as quickly as a 5th level wizard. The level/HP advancement is fundamentally flawed.
Now, on a personal note, I've seen how the Raid/PvP mentality has affected this community: certain players are less tolerant of non-combat-capable characters. I can respect that, but I can say that I've had almost more fun playing non-optimized characters than I've had with combat gawds. My personal favorite rules system is Call of Cthulhu, in which human beings are fundamentally incapable of defeating the BBEGss in combat. The question should be: are clerics and rogues fun to play? If so, play the heck out of them. Giving them worthwhile things to do is the GMs job.
I know I won't convince the mechanics cowboys out there, but try focusing on your character's personality for a bit. You might end up having some fun.
This person speaks truth! I feel that RPGs are becoming all about dungeon hacks with a few social roles so we can pretend we aren't just munchkining. Sure combat can be fun but a 80% combat game with a bit of story fluff and af few social skill roles does not a good game make (imo). Then again I am a homebrew kind of person and write my own campaigns and worlds, some of which have run longer than some editions or supported game worlds.
Point is, BAB, AC and all that is not realistic anymore than throwing a magic missile is. People worry too much about optimising for combat. Wizards no longer fear losing their spellbooks (makes me wonder what the point of having them is) and rogues are fast being considered obsolete.
In terms of the Rogue vs Fighter BAB. I think rogues should be almost equal given the combat focus of the game. Fighters get more HP, better proficiencies and weapon/armour training. Arguably feats/talents could be considered a trade off for each other. IMO talents just seem like feat replacements on a special list. I think that if a rogue is flanking or otherwise is not face to face with an opponent they should be equal with a fighter. Maybe some rogue talents that increase a rogues to hit when flanking or a few other more combat talents to put them on par with fighters when played cleverly. The fighter has more feats, more combat feats, is better mechanically than a rogue or has more combat options. This is what should be making them better 'fighters' than rogues, not that they have a higher BAB and more attacks.