Nightmare Bat

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Thanks for all your time Sean. Can't say I agree with all of it, but you certainly have valid reasons for everything you do. Most people would probably love to be a developer without realizing that its not quite as simple and fun as it seems.

I suppose I'd like to see a video of someone using a spiked chain in real life. You tube has to have something right?. (checking) Only as a 5 foot weapon, like Pazio rules. I do see a reach weapon similar in idea in the meteor hammer/ rope dart. I think there are some rules for those, right? (coulnd't find in SRD) With the dexterity needed for those weapons, and the fact that those weapons are controlled by the elbows shoulders and neck as much as anything else, one would think an armor check penalty would apply?

In any case, the great thing about Pen and Papers over mmorpg's like WoW or whatever is that if you don't like something the dev's decide on, you can change it! If your group likes the 3.5 Spiked chain better, use it!

But if your are using it to be a munchkin, you suck. :P

A #2 pencil is just a small improvised weapon, which does a d3 or d4 damage, right? :) Plus a fort save for lead poisoning. XD

Seriously though, Who would try and use 7 soccer balls as a weapon? That example is utterly ridiculous. I'm talking about finding equivalent exchanges here. No one is going to say "I want my orc fighter to wield a moderately hard pillow, but since there is no rules for that weapon, lets use the rules for a great-sword." But if he wanted to use a Chinese long spear, it seems perfectly fine to use the rules for a 3.5 spiked chain. (which in this case he -would- need to spend a feat on) or a katana and use the rules for a masterwork great sword, (which he wouldn't need the feat for, as long as he could use martial weapons)

Set's argument about the asian food proficiency was just as ridiculous, but I can understand why he made the post. Do we really need a feat for every oddity our character's have? as long as the game mechanics aren't effective, let a character be different.

And if I was playing an assassin, I just might spend a feat to wield #2 pencils well. You could assassinate anyone, anywhere! :D No guard would remove a #2 pencil from the person of someone effectively disguised as a scribe. In most combat situations it would suck, but that's okay, because you wouldn't use it in most situations. Of course, in game rules I don't need a feat, because its just a improvised weapon.

But once again, that #2 pencil example is pretty out there in 'straw man territory' and actually kinda rules in favor of the 'feat = mechanical payoff' versus the 'feat = fluff payoff'. Your inferior #2 pencil would actually be a great deal more deadly in modern society, because no one would see it coming and you could walk around armed to the teeth all the time. Try walking around with a dagger and see how fast you get arrested. Advantage!

If you have to expend a feat to use a weapon, then it should confer some advantage over a martial weapon, since most classes that are based around the use of weapons can use martial weapons 'for free'. Even if that advantage is simply its ability to be concealed or overlooked, as in the example of the #2 pencil or the bladed scarf,. (and even -that- is a reach weapon that can be used in close, ect, ect, as well as the things mentioned)

Hmm... Lots of interesting views, and despite me finding this place while being annoyed that my stage preforming diplomat rogue with a spiked chain got squished by the no reach thing, and me being angry about it, I can't say I have a solid opinion one way or another. OR rather, a good solution...

The way I see it, this comes down to an argument about whether exotic weapons should be 'better' because you are expending a feat, or if you should expend a feat just to be different.

Personally, I think things that make you different but have no real 'usefulness' in combat or dice rolling shouldn't cost you a feat. Those things should be up to the DM and players imagination. For instance, I play a 3.5 campaign in which I have an elf Duskblade, which i chose because I thought the class would be unique and fun to play without being as useless as many other unique and fun classes. He worships Wee Jass as a few DBs do and i thought it would be fun to make him unusually tall, pale, and skeletal. He's 6 foot 9 and very pale, freakish for an elf. Maybe he has some Stone Giant in his ancestry somewhere. My DM didn't have a problem with this, and I consider him to be horribly against free thought. He didn't ask for me to spend a feat on tallness, or gauntness. it effects the game mech.s very little, I simply stick out in a crowd.

The problem with this is that when it comes to weapons, you wouldn't feel very special if your unique fighter with his exotic weapon ran into a brigade of goblins wielding the same weapon because it doesn't cost a feat. Exotic weapons should be rare.

But consider this. Someone said something along the lines of 'I pick up a sword, you pick up a chain, lets see who wins'... The logic there is -exactly- why exotic weapons should be better in some way to their martial counterparts. Yes exotic weapons are hard to use. It would take months, if not years, of training to get as good with a chain as you could get with a sword in a week. So why bother with the chain at all if it isn't any better? People spend a long time mastering odd weapons because those weapons give them an advantage in a fight.

I think that if a weapon isn't better, it shouldn't need a feat to be wielded. Making a player spend a feat (for many classes a very limited resource) to be creative is silly and directly against the point of pen and paper RPGs, which is to use your imagination, create a unique character, breath life into it, and have fun!

And if a weapon -isn't- mechanically different, then base it off something else. Like you a Samuri, (a fighter) who wields a Katana (a masterwork great-sword). Another option would be, hey, like the spiked chains 3.5 abilities but not the idea of one? Wield a Chinese long-spear, which are flexible and light enough to be finessed, and that same lightness allows them to be used close in by rapidly drawing the spear back or spinning it around to use the butt.

Note I'm not lobbying to get the old spiked chain back, (I've found a workable weapon in the Urumi) Just trying to shed some light on the issue and spreading around a few idea's for house rules. :)