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2. If there are no mechanics for which way a person is facing, then there is no way to determine HOW a person is prone. If you can find anywhere in the rules where it says a person can be prone on their back, side, front, etc. I'd love to see them. According to game mechanics...

That's true, I forgot we're virtual people in a space that has 360 perception (visual or auditory) =/

point conceded

You can't trip someone who is prone. Just like you can't put a sleeping person to sleep, kill someone who's dead, or so on. This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.

So...being that my nature is to argue everything...

I said in my last statement...you can be prone multiple ways...got my head thinking...

(Assume's tripper has greater trip)

Trip attack happens
Opponent falls on his face
AoO's Occur
Tripper Trip's a person again, flipping opponent on his back/side (you pick)
AoO's Occur?

So that's going from a prone position to a prone position. A DM could use this by having a target fall on his face...party keeps wailing. Turn him over...oh...wrong guy, no wonder he never fought back. Or such and such.

Or...what would be a maneuver to flip someone over? Or would the prone position always be on your face/back/side?

<--lotsa uncommon sense, not a lotta common...

OgeXam wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

I was never talking about Ki throws. I was talking about trip. Ki throw is a different topic entirely.

Two topics in one thread issue then huh?

Would you say you can Ki Throw someone who was already prone then with a successful trip?

I would, yes, because the image of someone picking up someone else and throwing them in the context of a kung-fu fight is cool and logical and (in the context of said fantasy kung-fu fight) believable.

I'm just not a fan of overly pedantic rules arguments, is all, so if I seem curt or brusk... that's what's going on.

In the end, it's your GM that gets to make the call anyway.

Cool, thanks for the answer, kinda missed it since i had the reply window open for a while before i remembered to hit post ^^;

oh and for the record you can be prone multiple ways, on your back, front, or side. So actually flipping a person over and over wouldn't be beyond reasoning.

Okay back to ki throw stuff, the answer for tripping a prone person has been answered

Okay, so we're basically nitpicking a statement that was not directly used for this question. "No effect" could apply to trip attack as a whole or just about being prone. Until we hear something from a dev or someone else has something from another source.

I think we're beating a dead horse atm...help! oh moderator gods! i beseech thee for assistance. Please explain to us your words of mighty wisdom and it's cold where I am, think you can make it warmer?

@Mojorat:
Not quite right, but close:
bob and larry threaten sally
bob trips sally
sally goes prone and provokes AoO's from bob and larry because of greater trip
bob trips prone sally again larry takes AoO normally
sally goes prone and provokes AoO's from bob and larry because of greater trip
bob trips prone sally again larry takes AoO normally

turn ends with sally prone, and bob and larry have no AoO's till their next turns. combat continues

Rob, not sure I understand your logic train there, but I think I can reply...this is the actual chains I'm thinking are in contention right now.

a) attempt to trip prone target occurs
b) tripper wins CMB vs CMD check
c) target ends up prone
d) AoO's trigger from Greater Trip

OR

a) attempt to trip prone target occurs
b) tripper wins CMB vs CMD check
c) target stays prone
d) nothing happens because Greater Trip didn't activate from a successful trip

OR

a) attempt to trip prone target occurs
b) trip attempt auto fails because target is prone
(prolly not this one atm since quote says you can attempt a trip)

Hence clarification would be nice i guess from someone with an inside idea?

You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.

actually reading his quote better, he only said that tripping had no effect, not that you couldn't do it. If you have greater trip, a successful, but no effect trip would set off the AoO's....maybe? or house rules at that point...or dev interjecdtion!

@Robert, this isn't about the AoO from standing up, also, as the quote from jason says (unless he clears it up later), you can trip someone who is prone, but has "no effect". Need to find out if that "No effect" means it wasn't succesful or not...because the opponent still ends up in the prone position

Here is Jason Bulmahn on tripping someone while they're prone.

Wrong question, already said that I know about that. That is about using the AoO from standing up to knock them prone again, which you can't. This is about tripping someone who is still prone.

I found an DND SRD faq/errata entry that on wizards:

Being tripped makes you prone. Who can be tripped?
Beholders? Gelatinous cubes? What effect does tripping
have on these creatures? Can a prone character be tripped
again? What about flying and swimming creatures? Many
creatures have neither legs nor any relationship to the
ground or gravity. How does tripping affect them?
Anything using limbs for locomotion can be tripped.
Things that don’t need limbs for locomotion can’t be tripped.
You can’t trip a snake, a beholder, or a gelatinous cube. You
won’t find this in the rules, but then it really doesn’t need to be
in there—the rules can leave some things to the DM’s common
sense.
A creature flying with wings can be “tripped,” in which
case the creature stalls (see Tactical Aerial Movement on page
20 of the DMG). You can’t make an incorporeal creature fall
down. You also can’t trip a prone creature.
Creatures can’t be tripped when they’re swimming (the
water holds them up). Likewise, a burrowing creature is driving
its body through a fairly solid medium that serves to hold it up.

Question...does Pathfinder follow this ruling too? I'm kinda newb, hence question

edit: added reply to omegaz

Can't trip someone while they're already tripped. However, if you wanted to kick them while they were down that would be an unarmed strike. Keeping them down would mean going into a grapple with them and pinning them.

The reason I'm asking is because if you use the greater trip feat as your "kick'm while they're down" you cause AoO's for you allies again...if they have combat reflexes

Yes, start the groaning now, it's a question about tripping. Mostly applied with greater trip in mind for allies.

Yes, you can't trip someone from the AoO of standing up, read that, got it. I'm talking about an opponent who is staying/still prone for whatever reason.

From a story/reality standpoint, the act of tripping someone (with greater trip) is knocking someone down and giving your buddies a chance to wail on him...can you do that again while they're on the ground (basically kick'm while he's down moment)?

And no I do not know if you can change something's prone position to a prone position, if someone can point that rule out to me somewhere I'd appreciate it.

(and yes this is planning to be abused, combined with combat reflexes)

Inserted bold comments into quote:

Like others have said, moving might have been a bad example. What about casting a spell, or drinking a potion?

1. The giant drops his guard for a moment to fumble with a potion and drink it.

2. Before he actually drinks it, but while he is fumbling with it, my AoO goes off. I attempt to trip him. (So you lower your guard, provoking an AoO)

3. He, while his guard is down, fumbling with a potion, grabs his flail (technically couldn't AoO with great club(2hand) since you're holding club and potion, so changed for arguement's sake)and smacks me for 20 damage.(because your trip attempt left you wide open for a wild swing)

4. I get hit, but my trip goes off with a -20 to the CMB roll. I obviously fail. (since he hit you while you were doing something you're not accustomed to doing, you have no idea how to recover)

5. The giant finishes drinking his potion, and laughs.

That doesn't sit right with me.

Lol one way to look at it...imagine the traditional tall guy, short guy fight.

does that make better sense for you? improved trip for the short guy would be him knowing to duck close and sweep the tall guys legs out ;)

Personal Opinion:

PRD does say, you can do some Combat maneuvers (like trip) in place of a melee attack. So your trip is valid there.

The wording of Attacks of Opportunity is this: "Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity."

(quote is from combat section of PRD, under combat, attack of opportunity)

The reason why your opponent get an AoO without Improved _insert combat maneuver here_ is because you are not trained with your weapon to do said maneuver, so you're doing something awkward with your hand/weapon/appendage. So the reckless action applies to your trip as well.

Quote:
Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.

Story flavor wise:
As the goblin ran past you, you tried to trip him awkwardly with your _insert attack here_. Seeing a quick opening, he swings at you as he runs by and hits/misses you.

Depending on your CMB vs CMD rolls:

A) He hits/misses you, but you fail to trip and he continues running by.

or

B) He hits/misses you, but you manage to hook he leg and he falls flat on his face preventing further movement forward.