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Okay, in case there is any further interest in this topic, I'm posting a quicky 12th-level projection of an Arcane Duelist 11/Gunslinger 1 as a frame of reference. Is something around +16/+16/+11 1d8+16 full attack going to be acceptable at 12th level coming from a 2nd-tier combatant (bard)?

Thanks very much for the replies!

I had rejected the gunslinger Buccaneer for a single-level dip, but taking a second look at it, Seadog's Gait isn't *quite* as bad I thought. There are some nice features in this archetype that fit this character, so I'll ponder that further. How is a Buccaneer expected to clear misfires at low levels? This is the same strike against the Mysterious Stranger.

Also, as expensive as a dip out of bard is, a single-level into a full BAB class isn't a build-killer. However, the idea of flipping the dip (gunslinger > bard) has crossed my mind. Bard can be easier to dip into than out of. The vanilla bard is pretty compelling; while there's lots of chaff to trade away, most of the archetypes cut too deep.

One of the reasons I'm looking at Arcane Duelist, despite it's melee focus, is it leaves Inspire Courage intact; this and Sea Singer both leave this key feature in place. As much as I love Versatile Performance, I can give that up for a more specialized character, but Inspire Courage is one of the main reasons I'm looking at bard in the first place.

However, I really like the look of Archaeologist, and I really want to try that archetype eventually. It's almost a rewrite of the bard class entirely, however. If I knew we'd get more players in the group and someone else would help with the social and tactical leadership/buffing, I'd be very tempted to dump performing altogether for an Archaeologist.

Since that isn't the case, I'm still focused on a character that can provide strong leadership as well as a side order of combat damage. A self-enchanted Arcane Bond pistol, Arcane Strike (+2), Inspire Courage (+2), Combat Casting, Deadly Aim (-2/+4), Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Reload by 6th level doesn't seem terrible at mid-levels (+9/1d8+10 vs touch at close range). But I'm still looking at alternatives, and have some concern about walking myself into a corner in the higher levels.

Heyas, I am creating a character for a new Skull & Shackles-based campaign. I've previously played an archer-bard, and I'd like to play a bard again in this campaign to cover some of the essential skill needs for the AP. However, I don't want to do the vanilla bard thing *again*; I'm looking for a change-up for flavor while maintaining a reasonable amount of mechanical pull.

So I'm looking at Arcane Duelist for ranged dpr, or Sea Singer as a backup if decide to focus more on magic. I'm also looking at a single-level(?) splash into gunslinger for firearms flavor. I have access to Core + APG + Ultimates, with a 20-point build. I'd like to go Human, and at this point I'm considering Arcane Duelist/Mysterious Stranger.

I'm aware this isn't the bestest combo ever; as long he pulls his weight and isn't boring in combat, then the spells and skills will cover a lot of narrative power. This is a small group, but so far there will be (at least) a barbarian/fighter combat monster, a witch for spellcasting, and a cast of 'adopted' NPCs in the party to fill out any missing roles. Playing a Big Mouth with a Gun in a pirate campaign sounded like a good fit. :-)

Any advice for building a pistol wielding Arcane Duelist, or a similar alternative?

If the cohort is more an extra pair of hands and crafter, rather than a combatant, I don't think monk is the way to go.

You can't take Master Craftsman + a crafting feat until level 7.

Why not take an alchemist or bard. Both could take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3.

In any event both bard and alchemist are good at buffing and can hold their own in melee to protect you if required.

If you don't want to hold up the table while the cohort acts, don't go grappler monk!

Thanks for the feedback, that's very helpful.

You're right about Master Craftsman. I was thinking, "yeah, I can get that at 5th level", and now I'm all like "d'oh! not enough!"

I was already considering alchemist levels, so that really is a likely solution. If I only wanted to minimax, I'd definitely go all bard and have him just stand there inspiring courage all day; I've played a mid-level bard before and know how to make that work, but that shreds my monk character story completely.

Is there a melee alchemist build that can justify dipping into monk a bit? I haven't actually built a Mr. Hyde-style alchemist before, but I can see how they're done. My last alchy (that just died) was built around ranged attacks.

Regarding grappling, that is one reason I indicated I was open to other solutions for melee control (stunning?). There are so many monk styles out there, and I simply don't have time to bone-up on them all; I was hoping there might be an obvious choice there. However, if it does come to grappling, we have a couple of players at this table who know the grappling rules song-and-verse. Completely memorized. So we already have a fair amount of grappling going on, without much problem.

Any ideas for a alchemist/monk? Can I keep at least 1 of the 6 levels as monk without gimping him?

Howdy,

Since my previous Jade Regent character died last Friday inside the.., um.., er, crossing the Crown of World (no spoilers, please), I need a replacement ready in a couple of days. This time I am going with a samsaran wizard from Zi Ha, who was traveling on a pilgrimage to the shrines of Tsukiyo in the Forest of Spirits. There he experiences a sign/epiphany/dream sent by Tsukiyo that something hinky is going on to North, and sets out to investigate (thus finding the party).

I have the wizard under construction already, and so far, so good. The wizard will be starting at 8th level, and it is my intention that he have the Leadership feat with enough juice to support a 6th-level cohort. I am looking for a monk valet/bodyguard/craftsman sidekick. You get a virtual cookie for guessing my inspiration here, along with extra chocolate chips for sussing out the name Mr. Fong. ;)

I've never even looked at building a monk in PF before and I'm on a deadline. So any comments, links, or suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Here's the spec...

Scope

Pretty much any Paizo published, PF-native content works. The DM has already signed-off on the samsaran-wizard-with-cohort concept described above.

Ability Scores

22 point-buy. I know this is a non-standard (High Fantasy) number; I am not the DM. I'll make use of the extra 2 points if I can.

Gear

Assume the standard 6th-level 16k gp for the moment. I may kick in funds from the wizard as well, if needed.

Combat

Primary: Run melee interference for the wizard. Grappling or whatever works efficiently, doesn't really matter.

Secondary: Mobility and extra actions. The wizard (conjurer) will be 'porting around a bit, and our cohort will need to keep up. In a pinch, he can smooth out kinks in the action economy, caddying, etc.

He's not expected to get much involved with the front line. This party is way overloaded on melee already. If he stands next to me and does nothing the whole fight but hold a readied action to shut down melee threats, that will work just fine. The wizard will be summoning anyway, and I don't want to hold the whole table up while I'm flogging actions.

Downtime

I already have a lot of RP ideas to mine in social encounters, which don't require build optimizing. However, our friend here will be also be very busy in downtime. I'm looking to offload some crafting skills here, which is at least as important (if not more so) than combat. I'm open to suggestions here, including multi-classing. My current thoughts are...

Craft (alchemy) + Master Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item

Wondrous items are the main target here, but weapons and armor are also fair game if there is room. Alternatively, if class levels are used to access item creation feats, then wands and staffs are also in play. I'm currently thinking of having the wizard do rods himself, but that's fungible as well. I also like the idea of...

Craft (calligraphy) + Inscribe Magical Tattoo

..which fits the theme very well, but requires 5 caster levels. This is probably too much for our friend here. Maybe something to build towards, or perhaps stick on the wizard.

That's pretty much it. I will update further if there is interest. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Mercy Buckets, Y'all!

Interesting development: after looking around Dungeon-A-Day and then having a separate, unrelated conversation with my FLGS owner about things like D&D Encounters, it looks like I am going to be running an open ended bi-weekly exploration campaign of The Dragon's Delve...

Awesomeness! Have you thought about doing a little campaign journaling on Obsidian Portal/microblog/etc? I'd be interested in hearing of your experience with this project.

Running an ongoing, public sign-up dungeon campaign is an interesting idea, and something that I've been exploring as well. There are a few public or semi-private venues locally that support public sign-up games. Previously, LFR was very popular, but its now withering on the vine, and there's room for alternatives.

I am looking right now at dungeonaday.com. Which I only just subbed this past weekend, but so far looks pretty well done. The Dragon's Delve megadungeon is explicitly designed to be run as a vertical dungeon campaign, with only just enough surrounding setting to support ongoing delving.

I'm somewhat impressed with how the design attempts to keep interest in near continuous delving by using lots of hooks and recurring themes. The dungeon site has an elaborate backstory, which is revealed in drips and drabs to observant delvers. There are at least a few escalating threats that evolve depending on the actions of the players.

However, I've only read the first third or so of the so-far existing 15 levels (plus change). I'm still slightly concerned with deepest levels and Monte remaining active in the product (he's farmed out the daily work on the site to a 3rd party).

I'm also concerned that regular players may tire of the dungeoneering. There are a few encounters provided in the nearby wilderness, but not much. I'm thinking of including a modest hex-crawl option for the nearby wilderness, cribbing the highlights of the Kingmaker AP, recasting the Stolen Lands as the "Lost Duchy" setting used for Dragon's Delve. So most player's will have the choice of hex-or-dungeon-crawl on a session by session basis.

Regarding the PF/3.5 rules, I'm highly tempted to experiment a bit with some campaign table-rules. A public game should probably be run as close to RAW as possible, but I think there are things that can be done from the DM's end.

I'm highly tempted, for example, to only give out XP by treasure and exploration. This could be done by GP-derived value of treasure taken, old-school, supplemented with 'quest' XP for achieving objectives within the dungeon (such as discover bits of dungeon history, defeating specific choke-points, secret rooms, etc).

Living campaigns often hand out story-awards at the end a session, depending on how the party did. The same idea could be used to persist achievements within the campaign, and provide a substitute for the usual combat XP. I haven't tried doing the math on this yet, but I have hopes that this could spin the gameplay a bit, if the players buy-in.

Hi Erik!

If y'all are still looking at this thread, I just wanted to say how much I appreciated the excellent work that you and the Paizo team did on the D&D mags (including Poly!!!), and how I hated their fate last year.

Since then, I have not been subscribing to your new lines (outside of retail GameMastery purchases), but you can blame Monty for that; it turns out that Ptolus is the last 3rd edition setting/adventure product I will ever need. Hope you understand! :)

1. Yes, but not until my Ptolus campaign runs it's course; could be another year or more before that happens.

2. That would put me back on the Paizo gravy train; all aboard! I will begin to stock up on 4E material as soon as they become available. My 3E spending had already been exhausted well before 4E was announced, so I'm ready to spend again, LOL.

3. As I stated, Ptolus (and last couple of Complete books) were pretty much my last 3rd gen D&D purchases. Without support for 4E, I'd be limited to buying GameMastery and Planet Stories lines.

Thanks heaps, you guys rock!!!