Korahir's page

Korahir wrote:

Level 1 Fighters add +6 to their attack. All level 1 casters I built so far added +3 as I always ended up with Dex or Str 14. On the damage side of things the fighter mostly rolled d12 or d10 +4 while my casters either rolled d4 and d6 and added nothing when dex based or rolled d10 or d12 and added +2 when str based. All in all pretty close to each other and I am fine with that.

You have a peculiar definition of "pretty close".

Let me elaborate:

The difference in bonus to hit between a caster and the fighter is +3 at level 1. From my projections and scribbled attempts at higher level characters this margin only grows slowly. Any character investing in Strength can get close to a Fighter in terms of Melee Damage if he is proficient with the weapon and most can do without losing too much. Wizard with only 14 Int? Focus on buffs and you lose out on some Spell Points. If a caster doesn't invest in Strength, his damage is pretty close to what cantrips do. Yesterday I played a Goblin Sorcerer 1 with Burn it and using Produce Flame netted me 1d4+1 Fire Damage per round because it took me 2 actions to cast it. I was better off firing my heavy crossbow. So a Caster does pretty much the same amount of damage with weapons and cantrips if he dumpsters Strength.
Problem with the Fighter: He is nowhere near any other character out of combat. I have tried to go to 16 Int. Couldn't make it work. Felt useless in combat and was okay-ish out of combat. Pretty much every Fighter has Athletics but thanks to mostly medium/heavy armor climbing and swimming can get tricky. Investing in Craft? Fighters lack the Int to really outshine others. Any other skill? Fighters lack the skill points to choose them or the stat to use them efficiently.

The fighter is one of the better martial classes in the playtest, if not the best. He has the most different fighting styles and decent options for them.

I think all he needs is more skills, no reason for him to only be at 3. I think he should at least be bumped up by one, if not two starting skills.

I guess he could also use armor upgrades for light and medium (currently only heavy).

Can you be more specific? What is a martial class? Are Rogues martials or not? Are Clerics? Monks? Wizards with fighter dedication?

What makes the Fighter the best martial class? His DPR? What ddid the Fighter do in Exploration and Downtime?

Spellcaster DPR is really, really bad. Even with high level single target blasting spells. Fighters are doing great in combat compared to the spellcasters against everything except a horde of AOE fodder.

The Fighter's chance to fly through their own ability is really bad, even when they get to high levels. Wizards and Sorcerors and some of the other spellcasters are doing great at it compared to other characters, even when it's only a short distance you need to fly.

Linear fighter - quadratic wizard. One of the absolute core problems of every incarnation of DnD and Pathfinder I have played so far. That's why I suggested adding Fighter class feats that emulate certain spells (see first post).

Probably should of been on the class section but good points all around.

May have messed that up cause I an on my phone. Maybe a mod can move it?

I thought I dedicate a whole thread to the class that worries me most. Maybe we can gather all small and big suggestions here.
The long version:
Casters have gotten closer to the fighter when it comes to combat abilities. The proficiency system allows casters to not trail much behind the Fighter. Level 1 Fighters add +6 to their attack. All level 1 casters I built so far added +3 as I always ended up with Dex or Str 14. On the damage side of things the fighter mostly rolled d12 or d10 +4 while my casters either rolled d4 and d6 and added nothing when dex based or rolled d10 or d12 and added +2 when str based. All in all pretty close to each other and I am fine with that. Bringing classes closer to each other means usually a more balanced game experience. But: Fighters are still stuck in combat only. I tried building an Elven Fighter focused on Dex and Int that could handle combat like the heavy armored strenght based brutes abd dabble in Society and Craft. So far I didn't come up with something satisfying that would justify my investment in Intelligence. Either my Wisdom or my Constitution suffered too hard to keep up with other melee options. I tried to sell the fighter to other players as something interesting. Didn't work at all because it lacks distinct flavor. Expert in Perception and martial weapons just isn't cool enough to give up a flavorful barbarian with their totems or paladins with their codes and champion powers. Rangers have a distinct flavor with their options and monks have stances and more. All these classes offer abilities that reward investments in mental ability scores.

The short version:
-Fighters need a theme besides expert in combat and perception.My suggestion would be to create options in the same way a sorcerer chooses a bloodline. I.e. Slaver: trained/Signature skills in Stealth and Society. Feats based around nonlethal damage and hampered conditions. Capstone possibly dominate effect. Bodyguard (Society and Diplomacy, Sword and Board, capstone shield other effect), Soldier (Craft and Medicine, effects based on allies in combat like the dog in the bestiary or the goblin scuttle, capstone?), Pirate (Acrobatics and Nature, One hand free fighting, Capstone?)

-Regarding overall ability distribution I would suggest granting some bonuses to the fighter in combat, exploration and downtime based on Intelligence.

- Increase Skills gained by the class drastically. Fighters need to be able to contribute in Exploration and downtime. I'd suggest 5 + int at least.

-Add Finesse Striker to the Fighter chassis. Allows Fighters to keep Strength at 10 and Dex is already a key ability.This would free up ability points to spend on Mental stats. Does not invalidate the Rogue as he still has Sneak attack and loads of different rogue feats.

The Robust Recovery skill feat requires expert in medicine and is level 2. How can it be accessed via the background laborer? P.8 states: Prerequisites }.....]you must have before you can access the element.

Thanks for your answer. I agree on everything and realized parts of it already myself. Let me try it in a correct way and see if you find more mistakes:

- Caster B moves and uses Ready (Standard Action): When Enemy A is starting to cast a spell, I want to cast Telekinetic Charge targeting Melee C.
- Melee C moves (in range of Caster B) and readies standard action: I want to attack Enemy A when Enemy A starts to cast a spell.
- Enemy A starts his turn and wants to cast a spell as a Standard Action and a quickened spell as a Swift Action.
- Ready Action of Caster B triggers and launches Melee C right next to Enemy A during the first spell cast (quickened or not).
- Melee C uses his readied standard action and attacks Enemy A.
- Melee C uses his immediate action to attack Enemy A (He cannot take the immediate action before his own readied action according to the Ready section).
- Enemy A rolls Concentration against possible damage taken for whatever spell (quickened or not) he chose to cast first, possibly losing that one.
- Enemy A rolls Concentration to cast defensively if he did cast the quickened first OR doesn't roll because of the quickened metamagic rule.
- Caster B and Melee C end up with an initiative score right before Enemy A (according to the Ready Action).

Since the distracting spellcasters section states "if she starts casting a spell", the trigger of Melee C is now legal. The Immediate Action also targets the first spell because it is tied to Caster B's ready action. Any holes in that plan?

Dear wise, people of this forum,

I stumbled upon this rule conundrum. Maybe you can falsify (or verify) my interpretation and offer the correct sequence. The following is happening:
Enemy A (a mid level caster without any contingencies) is in sight of Caster B and Melee C. Everyone rolls initiative: Caster B and Melee C have higher results than Enemy A.

- Caster B moves and uses Ready (Standard Action): When Enemy A is starting to cast a spell, I want to cast Telekinetic Charge targeting Melee C.
- Melee C moves (in range of Caster B) and buffs himself.
- Enemy A starts his turn and wants to cast a spell as a Standard Action and a quickened spell as a Swift Action.
- Ready Action of Caster B triggers and launches Melee C right next to Enemy A.
- Melee C uses an immediate action to attack Enemy A.
- ???Enemy A rolls Concentration against possible damage taken twice. (Once for the standard spell, once for the quickened spell)???
- ???Enemy A rolls Concentration to cast defensively twice OR Melee C makes an attack of opportunity because Enemy A triggers is by casting next to him (possibly twice if it is a ranged touch spell).???
- Caster B ends up with an initiative score right before Enemy A (according to the Ready Action).

Is this sequence correct? Where am I horribly wrong? The ones marked with 3 question marks is the point, I can't wrap my head around. What I am sure is that my original thought: Melee C readies an attack when next to Enemy A, is not possible because the immediate action attack used by Melee C clashes with the readied action rule that you cannot take any action before your ready action.