Sanvil Trett

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114 posts. Alias of Vil-hatarn.


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Aemur Farstride wrote:
Apologies for my recent absence posting over the last couple of weeks; my wife just gave birth to our firstborn. Starting to recover and ready to jump back in as well.

Congratulations!


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

So, uh, what's happening here? Thread's been quiet for a while...


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

I think we're waiting on a skill check from Eshkeval, and some investigation on the part of Cayden's half of the group?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

*poke*poke* anyone home?


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Kolmac offers a noncommittal "right" in response. Not quite the same as good for the clients. His thoughts go back to his youth in the gin distillery in Northwind and the brusque manner his father adopted when dealing with new customers. Drove some business away to be sure, but in the end the deals were fair and the clients reliable. Something new every day in this place. He adopts a small, wry smile, shakes his head slightly, and sets aside thoughts of his youth in favor of the task at hand, with limited time before the scheduled meeting.


Kirth Gersen wrote:

I propose:

Arcane Aim: Enhancement (2nd level) + Effect-Specific Spell (rays only; -2 levels) + Cascade Spell [(bestow feat: Precise Shot; +2 levels) + Augment Spell (BAB +11 effects; +2 levels) + Effect-Specific Spell (concealment only; -2 levels)] + Cascade Spell (bestow feat: Chaotic Mind; +1 level) = 2nd level; applies a +1/4 levels enhancement bonus to attacks and damage with rays for 1 rd./level, and they ignore concealment and insight bonuses to AC.

Was it the Extend reductions that violated Cascade? Would prefer a 1st level product that can Cascade for +1 with synergy, which makes the longer duration questionably worth it.

I was eying the absurd deflection bonuses on some undead but hardly did a full survey, if insight will be more useful I'm happy to take that angle.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Quote:
Oddball spell idea to run by you Kirth. I want to build a spell drain variant (let's call it mana burn) that causes damage only on a successful drain, similar to the damaging effect on Improved Dispelling.

There are one or two spells in Appendix 8A like that, I think, that use Creature-Specific Spell:

Mana Burn: Dispel (0 level) + Reach Spell (touch to close; +1 level) + Cascade Spell [(bolt of force; +2 levels) + Lingering Evocation (+1 level) + Creature-Specific Spell (subject to the dispelling effect; -2 levels)]= 2nd level; ranged touch eats one spell slot (if opposed Concentration check successful); if successful, also deals up to 10d6 force damage +2d6/rd. until save.

That's more or less what I had in mind, though harder to build for cheap with my metamagic selection. Might prefer target over ray for the drain, would adding Shape give a save on the damage (that could be overriden with Inexorable if desired)?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Looping back to arcane aim, I see that most prebuilt spells built off of enhancement include a -2 Item-Specific Spell modifier. Given that my version will apply only to rays, is it valid to include that in the construction? If so, does that rule out Personal Spell, as stacking the two seems a tad abusive?

Here's what I had in mind:

arcane aim: enhancement 2nd + Extend (1 min/lvl to 1 round/lvl; -1) + Unskittering Spell (+1) + Cascade (bestow feat Precise Shot; +1) + Augment (BAB +11; +2) + Effect-Specific Spell (ignore concealment only; -2) + Extend (1 round/lvl to 1 round; -1) + Personal and/or Item-Specific (-1/-2/-3) + Augment (+X enhancement) = 1st, grants +1+X enhancement (Heightens to +1 per 2-4 levels) to attacks (rays, if restricted) for 1 round (or current spell, if Cascaded) and ignores deflection (must be a ray) and partial concealment (must be ranged).

The ray restriction would eliminate the caveats on the additional effects.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Oddball spell idea to run by you Kirth. I want to build a spell drain variant (let's call it mana burn) that causes damage only on a successful drain, similar to the damaging effect on Improved Dispelling. My thought was to cascade bolt of force and dispel, and then substitute the Concentration check in place of the regular save. I wasn't sure if I should also apply Resistible Evocation; the damage potential falls in between a normal save (roughly 50% full damage, 50% half) and a resistible ray (roughly 50% miss, 25% full, 25% half), whereas this spell would be about 50% miss, 50% full, more closely matching a standard ray attack. Maybe I've answered my own question, the actual substitution is using the Concentration check in place of an attack roll.

Alternatively, I suppose it could allow a save vs the damage (Will, probably) and then Resistible works as written.

Note this also depends on how you decide to handle scaling on the drain effect, if the maximum damage is less than 1d6/level (i.e. tageting 1 slot, or cap other than 1 spell level drained/level with rollover to additional slots) then maybe Resistible or Reduce are a fair adjustment again.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Eshkeval--as per Kirth's clarification in the main rules thread, I'll be switching my dispel to the spell draining version, so you can stick to the dispelling version without overlap.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Mindful of the need to carry on "business as usual", Kolmac recommends the group reconvenes at the inn tonight, after he and Eshkeval meet with the baron's architect, who they'll also try to work some useful information out of. He'll return to the inn (or wherever the baron has set aside as a workspace) and set to work on applying magical principles to useful architectural applications. If Eshkeval can assist with some kind of artistic check, he'll take 10 on Spellcraft for a 20 total.


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
The only other option would be the enhancement seed, but there's not usually a way to apply enhancement bonuses to rays so I'm not sure that's valid?
Per Chapter 8, you can treat rays as a weapon type. Therefore they can receive enhancement bonuses.

Perfect, I'll rebuild it on that basis then.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Back to the drawing board on the targeting spell...my specialist bonus for force missiles is a competence bonus and won't stack with Weapon Specialization. An insight bonus would make sense, but I'm not seeing an obvious way to gain insight on multiple attacks. The only other option would be the enhancement seed, but there's not usually a way to apply enhancement bonuses to rays so I'm not sure that's valid?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:

Repeating from above:

2. And how do you determine the number of slots/levels affected for the effect? It looks like the original manaspear drained 1/2 CL spell levels with no roll or save; so my first guess at a Kirthfinder translation would be Heighten: spells levels drained = final spell level, with an opposed Concentration check?

2. You affect one spell/spell slot, unless you use Mass Effect Spell or some other means to increase that number. As written, the level of that spell slot is immaterial; provisionally you'd affect the highest one. Your suggestion isn't a bad one, though, to keep things under control.

Low-level dispel feels quite abusable, otherwise, though I suppose you can't punch up that far before the checks start failing. The rate is effectively 1/2 levels (offset by 1 level), so extending to Ray Splitting a level 4 spell could create two rays (three with a force seed for Kolmac), each targeting a 3rd level spell slot (base 4 + 1/2 spell level, split two ways), which seems like plenty of effect for a +1 Cascade. Splitting does become slightly worse at higher levels (level 2-4 splits to hit spell level -1, level 5-8 splits to hit spell level -2, splitting to three rays is not advisable without applying Mass Effect first), so it might need a little tuning.

Taken to extremes, you'd get the following:
mana leak: dispel + Disruptive (+1) + Reach (medium, +1) + Mass Effect (1/level, +3) = 5th level, drains 5 spell levels/level and gives -5 on forced Concentration for a turn, if they somehow have any spells left.

Yikes! Maybe disallow Heightening on Mass Effect levels? So a +1 Mass Effect would give you a 3rd level spell hitting 4 spell levels (=2nd before Mass, two targets), a +2 gets you 2+2/3 levels at 4th, and a +3 gets you 2/level at 5th. So mana leak cast at 10th level would drain up to 20 levels as a 5th level spell, which after Concentration checks means you probably took their two best spells to your one, which is approaching reasonable. I'll work on alternative approaches and some test cases..

As written dispel appears to have effectively have Variable Spell written in. Is there any discount to be had for restricting it to one use as with manaspear?


Kirth Gersen wrote:

UPDATE: New spell seed!

INURE...

Looks great! A few metamagic thoughts at a glance:

1) endure elements can offer protection from heat and cold simultaneously at the same spell level by using Cascade (Inure: cold) instead of Variable Spell.
2) Does Variable Spell on resist energy only allow for the 5 elements covered by the original spell? Technically Variable Spell allows any number of options but 11 choices seems like a stretch, should probably disallow the physical types at least (i.e. no DR).
3) Clever use of Energy Admixture for stoneskin. If one wanted to stack rather than divide resistances, I gather this would be an appropriate application of Mass Effect (+2 for two elements, +3 for a few, +4 for all)?

Some of the more interesting possibilities...

resist everything: inure + Mass Effect (all types, +4) + Irresistible (+2) + Extend (1 min/lvl to 1 hour/lvl, +2) = 8th level. All-day DR/- or resistance = 5/2 levels (max 50) against all non-force damage.

resist elements: inure + Mass Effect (acid, cold, electricity, fire, +3) + Extend (1 min/lvl to 1 hour/lvl, +2) = 5th level. Resist acid, cold, electricity, and fire 5/2 levels (max 40) for 1 hour/level. Add sonic at 12th level, negative at 15th, positive at 18th.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

They're close, but your way is ~2 spell levels stronger (+1 atk, + either damage or cover negation), depending on whether it's bestow + bestow + Mass + Augment or bestow + Mass + Augment. It's one I'll be purchasing pre-modified with numen rather than building with my own metamagic, so no reason for me not to take the stronger version as long as you're okay with that application of Mass Effect.

Here's the final version: Kolmac’s arcane aim—self, VSF. Rays receive +3 attack and damage, ignore deflection bonuses to AC, and ignore the miss chance from anything less than total concealment for 1 round. bestow feat Weapon Specialization (1st) + Unskittering Spell (+1) + Mass Effect (add Precise Shot, +1) + Augment BAB +11 (+2) + Effect-Specific Spell (ignore concealment only, -2) + Extend 1 round/level to 1 round (-1) + Personal Spell (-1).

Repeating from above: How does the spell draining function of dispel work? Does it require an opposed Concentration check like other uses of dispel? And how do you determine the number of slots/levels affected for the effect? It looks like the original manaspear drained 1/2 CL spell levels with no roll or save; so my first guess at a Kirthfinder translation would be Heighten: spells levels drained = final spell level, with an opposed Concentration check? And based on dark lightning, you can apply Mass Effect as a multiplier on spell levels affected?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Ooh, that's a nice trick with the Augments, I figured they had to be applied separately. Do you not still need bestow Precise Shot though, I'd figure Mass Effect just allows you to 'target' both seeds with the Augment but they still have to be there first?

I'm not quite sure what was illegal with the first construction--maybe my shorthand was a little unclear. Step 1: make a level 0 bestow Precise Shot with Extend (-1) applied. Then start with the level 1 bestow Weapon Specialization and Cascade the level 0 Precise Shot. I don't think that violates anything specific in the Cascade rules, nor the spirit of the Cascade/Reduce spell interaction.

That said, I see both versions have room for an initial +1 metamagic, it would make sense to apply Unskittering Spell and bypass deflection bonuses as well. That would make my version (fixed by dropping the Precise Shot cover benefit) +2 attack, ignores concealment, ignores deflection; and your version either +3 attack, ignores concealment, ignores cover, ignores deflection, or +3 attack/damage, ignores concealment, ignores deflection; all coming out to 1st level.

Have I mentioned I'm excited for 6th/7th level? Ray Splitting shenanigans will abound.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Working on mid-level spells and came up with this little gem using true strike as a model. I wanted a way to boost my attack rolls for rays, especially while using Ray Splitting, and true strike only applies to one attack roll (based on PF version and the Strike feat it's built off of), so I had to look for alternative ways to build the effect. Blessing was right out, since Enchantment is a barred school, so I turned back to bestow feat and did some gymnastics with the order of operations...

1st level: Kolmac's arcane aim—self, VSF. Rays gain +2 attack and ignore concealment, cover, melee penalties for 1 round. bestow feat Weapon Specialization ray (1) + Extend 1 round (-1) + Cascade bestow feat Precise Shot Extended to 1 round (+1) + Augment BAB +6 WS (+1) + Effect-Specific Spell attack only (-1) + Augment BAB +11 PS (+2) + Effect-Specific Spell melee, concealment, cover only (-1) + Personal Spell (-1).

Tweaks:
+1 level for +2 damage per missile.
+1 level for additional +1 attack/(damage), or +2 for +2/(+3).
+1 level to shoot into grapple without penalty.
-1 level to only ignore concealment, not melee or cover.
+2 levels to cast as a swift action (via Sudden Spell), for use without Cascade Spell.

Kirth, are the Effect-Specific modifiers I've applied here reasonable? I've left out both the BAB +6 benefit and the re-roll vs. total concealment for the -1 on Precise Shot.

I also came up with a version using enhancement as the base, but that felt like it was skirting the intended use of that effect? It only gives the ignore concealment clause from Precise Shot, but gives a higher attack bonus at higher levels, equal to +1 attack, +1 per 2-4 levels depending on the final spell level.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

"We'll need to work quickly, though. I imagine it's only a matter of time until the perpetrator returns here and sees they've been discovered. We'd best return to town before anyone takes note of our absence."


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Neat, I'll hold off on defensive options until that's ready then, I expect I'll be making quite a lot of use of that one.

I think I need some clarification on how the spell draining function of dispel works. Does it require an opposed Concentration check like other uses of dispel? And how do you determine the number of slots/levels affected for the effect?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Question on modifying the resist energy construction. I gather Expedient Spell reduces the effect from immunity to resistance; was the resistance value just picked to match the existing spell? How should it scale if the spell level is changed by additional metamagic?

Specifically, wondering if it's legal to create a family of level 0 resist energy spells by stripping off Extend and Variable, Cascade 5 of them together, and then reapply Extend for a 5th level spell granting resistance 30 (or more?) to all 5 energy types. And what resistance would be granted by the level 0 versions, if used on their own?

Does the swift action condition on the redirect of Bouncing Spell apply to effects recreated with it, such as dispel magic? Does Bouncing Spell work with rays--looking at the specific case of manaspear, does Bouncing only apply to the dispel attempt or does it work on both halves of the spell? Finally, if I apply Ray Splitting to manaspear...does each hit drain a spell slot?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

In-game...we're definitely still missing a motive for these killings, beyond protecting the secret of this building and its hidden contents. Cayden, maybe you make a roll with your new Construction knowledge and determine whether this cellar predates the construction on top of it? Knowing whether this is something that was stumbled upon and covered up, or built with the express purpose of hiding an unholy site could be useful. Failing that, we can continue with the plan of conversationally interrogating some of the people involved in the project.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kirth Gersen wrote:
So, yeah, the seed + metamagic system probably still has a lot of bugs in it -- hence my gratitude for you and Eshkeval testing it -- but it also, for the most part, seems to be doing its job.

Mad props for coming up with it in the first place, it's brilliantly done. Not something I'd recommend to a new player, perhaps, but I'm sure having a blast with it.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Playing around some more...I'm guessing the intent is that Fell Entangling must be applied after Augmenting bind, since the effects depend on which condition []i]bind[/i] inflicts? Otherwise, you can create fell grapple = bind + Fell Entangling (1) + Augment (grapple, 1) = 2nd level, which is the same level as grapple = bind + Augment (grapple, 2) = 2nd level, and that seems wrong.

As far as 'free' metamagic via synergy, consider the following: bind + Fell Entangling (1) + Reach (close to medium, 1) + Extend (round/lvl to 2 rounds/lvl, 1) = 3rd. Both Reach and Extend can be discounted, but can't be reduced below 1, so at no additional cost you can have Reach to medium and Extend to 1 minute/level. Right? Not that this is necessarily a problem, the latter is a more appropriate 3rd level spell than the former, just something interesting to watch for when using some of the scaling metamagic options.

Proposed revision to the Fell X feats make sense, spell seeds already control which conditions are available from which schools so there's not much need for the [necromancy] tag on the feats.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
Verification regarding numen cost of metamagic feats: an item granting knowledge of a metamagic feat (essentially a reference text) would cost 2000 numen x 2x the metamagic cost (i.e. ranks in Concentration required for the feat), right? So, for example, a tome of Fell Binding would cost 4000 numen, and allow me to apply Fell Binding during spell preparation?
Look at it this way: to cast a 5th level spell, you need a CL 9th. Therefore, to cast a 4th level spell with a +1 level metamagic feat tacked on, you'd be looking at (9 ranks x 2000) = 18,000 numen.

Okay, so in the case of something as narrow as Fell Binding, I'm better off just buying premodified spells for a few thousand numen instead. Not sure I can spare the feat slot, I have my eye on about three times as many feats as I can actually take...

I definitely missed the order of operations/no discount on first metamagic clause. So, when possible, you want your first metamagic to be a +1 modifier so you can maximize discounts on others; in the case of flare, this has to be Reach at +1 because you can't apply the Extend +1 until the dazzle Augment has been applied. Better go recheck all my custom spells...

Back to blindness effects, my light-based build still compares fairly well with blindness/deafness with Accursed Spell removed. I see blindness is supposed to require a 2nd level spell minimum, which technically makes shadow veil illegal, and invalidates my point about a 1st level 1 round/level version. Sadly I'll have to wait until 4th level at least to have enough metamagic to build blinding halo, and then only if I trade in my magic missile turning. Which I'll probably do, I resist force damage anyway and a niche advantage vs other arcane casters isn't much compared to a whole metamagic feat.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
So what would be the effect of, say, a ray of bind with fell entangle applied (envisioning something like a force lasso)? Does hit/miss just stand in for a failed/passed save? Or is there no effect on a miss, rendering the fell modifier useless?
This is something I'd need to think on, as touch attack no-save effects can get stoopid crazy later in the game. So far, I'd been keeping the save allowed, since you're normally piggybacking on another ray -- something like "ranged touch for 5d6 acid (no save) plus sickened 1 rd./level (Fort 1 rd.)."

That sounds the most reasonable, and yes, this is mostly intended for Cascading onto magic missiles where it will also benefit from Ray Splitting, so that probably offsets the downside of a miss chance. I've also started looking at ways to tack on an attack bonus as an alternate approach to mimicking the auto-hit feature of magic missile, which perhaps highlights how broken not allowing the save could become.

Started working out when Ray Splitting/my bonus missiles come online...looking forward to level 6.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

"Eshkeval and I are meeting with the Baron's architect tonight...perhaps we can press him for more information on what happened to this project. Cayden, do you perhaps know the Baron's foreman? You and the others could take the same angle with him, see what you can find out about the abandonment of this site without raising too much suspicion."

"I doubt the Baron is involved, more likely someone in the guard is covering their own tracks, but he may not take kindly to us interfering in his matters anyway. We should keep a low profile."


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Verification regarding numen cost of metamagic feats: an item granting knowledge of a metamagic feat (essentially a reference text) would cost 2000 numen x 2x the metamagic cost (i.e. ranks in Concentration required for the feat), right? So, for example, a tome of Fell Binding would cost 4000 numen, and allow me to apply Fell Binding during spell preparation?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Okay, I see you have Defiant Luck, so you have that instead of Open Minded (which would have given the extra skill point). So skills look good.

Heart of the Wilderness is certainly handy for a fighter, though the flavor doesn't quite seem to fit? For Skill Synergy, I believe the intent is that you can pick any two skills as long as you can offer a reasonable explanation for why they're related; choices might include your two Craft skills (to offset the Int penalty), or Athletics and Endurance, or even Diplomacy and Knowledge (warfare) (something something commanding presence?). However, I might suggest you consider either Sociable, to make better use of your impressive Diplomacy bonus, or Bestow Luck for a bit of 'heroic leader' flavor.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

"I suppose we should take that with us. We can return it to the boy's family after we find the ones responsible for these events."


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kolmac wrote:

Fell Blinding is the only other one I can use (Necromancy barred school), but I think I prefer the fail case of entangled over dazzled, even if blinded is somewhat stronger than grappled.

Scratch that, Fell Blinding is Necromancy. Reviewing spell options for ways to target a defense other than Reflex or touch AC (high Dex is my worst enemy), given Enchantment and Necromancy as barred schools, all I'm seeing are inertia, which has minimal effects at low levels, and light augmented for blinding, which appears to allow Reflex instead of Fortitude vs. bright flash effects e.g. flare.

I think the best I can do with light, using flare as a guide, is the following:
blinding halo: 2nd level, range medium, blinds target 1 round/level, Fortitude negates. Augment (blinding light) +4, reach (touch to medium) +1, extend (light 10 min/level to 1 round/level) -2, extend (blinding 1 round to 1 round/level) +1, shape (emanation to target) -2.

Compares favorably to Kirthfinder's blindness/deafness at 3rd level as per Variable Spell. Making the light instantaneous reduces to 1st level, but changes the save from Fort to Reflex (is that really worth a whole spell level? Answer may be yes, comparable to sonic/force vs other energy types). As a side note, flare as written can get a free upgrade from close to medium range, as it has multiple +1 metamagic modifiers.

EDIT: For another comparison, see shadow veil in the spells compendium; would be 1st level if extended to 1 round/level, Intuition negates. Except I believe alter senses is only allowed to inflict blindness with the Accursed Spell metamagic?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

You should have 3 from fighter, it's 4+Int. You appear to be missing the racial skill point entirely (assuming you took Open Minded--note that Kirthfinder humans have a number of alternate options to the skill point). That would take you to 16 total ranks. Also, it doesn't look like you've specified your human racial trait.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
Is it legal to convert a target spell such as bind to a ray with Shape Spell?
Yes. Appendix 8A has quite a few examples of "Shape Spell (ray to target; +0 levels)," and the reverse is also legit.

So what would be the effect of, say, a ray of bind with fell entangle applied (envisioning something like a force lasso)? Does hit/miss just stand in for a failed/passed save? Or is there no effect on a miss, rendering the fell modifier useless?


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Cascade Spell will be crucial for high-level spell construction. I'll likely make use of Fell Entangling, but it's not worth spending a feat slot--I'll just spend the numen to buy pre-modified Fell bind, Fell grapple, and Fell pin. Fell Blinding is the only other one I can use (Necromancy barred school), but I think I prefer the fail case of entangled over dazzled, even if blinded is somewhat stronger than grappled.

The part I'm grappling with is ray vs. target/AoE spells; my stats and my class bonuses favor rays over anything that allows saving throws (also why the Fell line is attractive), but I want to make sure I'm more than just a glass cannon in the long run. For now, blasting will do...thanks to Warmage my damage output is close to a whole caster level ahead of the curve for the first few levels.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Puzzling over some spell constructions as I consider my options. Is it legal to convert a target spell such as bind to a ray with Shape Spell? Specifically trying to work out some of the Bigby's Hand variants that combine damage and status effects; with bolt of force as the seed, it's quite advantageous for me to use rays where possible but it's not clear to me what that means for resolution of the status effect, particularly once Fell Entangling or Lingering Evocation are added on.


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Dairkal Nimblecloak wrote:
Dairkal Nimblecloak wrote:


Questions:

I took another rank in Linguistics, which I *believe* gets me a new language spoken(but not written). Any suggestions as to which one would make sense? Dair currently knows: Common, Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, High Elvish.

This mighta gotten lost in the discussion of numen, but any suggestions from either Kirth or the other PCs?

I've got Abyssal and Draconic so far. Probably makes sense to leave the 'academic' languages to Kolmac and Eshkeval, and you can pick up anything of a more 'conversational' bent. Looks like you have the racial bases covered except for Wood Elf, or Orc...or you could go farther afield and add Aramnic, or Oeridian (see p20 of Intro chapter re: shipments of grain from Greyhawk).

For Cayden, it's not a bad idea to put 1 skill point into most of your class skills over the first few levels in order to take advantage of the +3 trained bonus. Survival is definitely one where some redundancy is not a bad thing, and Kolmac's skill in it is mostly limited to Aid checks and I'm not likely to invest much more in it unless it's called for.


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Dairkal Nimblecloak wrote:

Hey Kirth, this might be a dumb question but I couldn't find an answer when I looked over the introduction:

Does Kirthfinder use the PF rate of feats when leveling(ie, every odd) or the 3.x(ie 1 per 3) or something different?

Are ability score increases still gained at a rate of 1 per 4 levels?

Same as PF for both, I asked a while back.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Yeah, looks like Dair has it right. You get Athletics, Endurance, and Knowledge (warfare) = level for free, plus 3 regular and 1 background skill point per level, so you should have a total of 14 skill ranks after leveling: 6 automatic, 2 secondary, and 6 that can go anywhere. I do see a stray "+1" with no skill listed on your profile, maybe it got lost somewhere along the way?


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

I think the background point per level can be assigned as desired, it's not treated like the class bonus skills. Or you can take Smithing as your regular background rank and then spend a skill point for Construction, if you want both.


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

No, but they may be a useful source of information regarding the original purpose and abandonment of this property. We were set to discuss some of the manor plans.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

"Demon worshippers? I suppose that would explain the strange nature of those plant monsters we ran into. We will need to be cautious dealing with the locals from now on, lest we tip off whoever is behind these foul deeds."

Kolmac is ready to depart. I believe he and Eshkeval have a meeting to keep with the baron's architect.


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Dairkal Nimblecloak wrote:

Looking over the rogue skills, I really gotta applaud Kirth on not only the concept of bonus skills(which is genius), but also on the fact that they have some skills that are generally seen as non standard for a rogue.

Since we're dealing with a demon lord and his unholy symbol, plus some undead, I'm going to be giving Dair a rank in knowledge(the planes), planar sense and spellcraft.

I do have one question however: How come Sleight of Hand isn't one of the rogue's bonus skills??

Most bonus skills are necessary for the class to function e.g. Perception for the rogue so they can benefit from the free Alertness feat, or Concentration for spellcasters since it stands in for caster level. Sleight of Hand, while certainly a very useful skill for a rogue, isn't strictly necessary, and you could feasibly come up with a rogue character that doesn't use it.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Eshkeval, the Card Archivist wrote:

Also, Kolmac, I should probably note that I took Dispel as a seed spell, though I guess having Create Food and Create Water as extended main stays along with Ritual Dimension Skip, I guess I don't really have a lot of space to really make use of it, lol.

That said now that I think about it, I will eventually gain access to the Variant Channeling for the Magic domain, which allows me to dispel/counterspell stuff IIRC, so it is something I could have covered if you wish. I think I also get like, Dispelling Touch as a bonus feat at 8th level or something.

It's not the worst seed to have a backup for, if one of us gets hit with an entangle effect or the like. I'm also just not that enthused for the other 0-level effects available, and it feels right for a wizard with a heavy abjuration focus. I may take a pass on Improved Counterspell knowing that you have that variant channeling option, though--let's keep it in mind so we don't put too many resources into redundant abilities.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Dairkal Nimblecloak wrote:

I don't fully understand numen and the WBL for Kirthfinder. Can somebody give me a simplified, layman's terms crash course?

It's why Dair only has a rogue's kit(plus his combat gear), as I didn't really get the system.

I'll give it a shot. The key number is 'par' for your level (1000 gp at 2nd)--this is your 'target' WBL. Whenever the value of your gear falls below par, you are entitled to acquire, discover, or upgrade magic items of your choice until you reach par. This does not require Craft skills, magical ability, or access to a 'magic mart'; a previously mundane item can be discovered to actually have magical properties, or an item can grow in power as you do. Essentially, this system cuts out treasure acquisition and liquidation in favor of simply allowing characters to have a reasonable quantity of magical gear that suits them.

Where it becomes slightly complicated is overflow. Crafted items or treasure found in the course of an adventure do not count against your regular numen and the par limit and are tallied separately. This is roughly speaking the gap between your expected wealth when you first reach the level vs. expected wealth as you reach the next level.

Your maximum numen is the sum of your par and overflow values. You are allowed to exceed max numen in the short term, but by doing so you accept that at some point in the near future something will happen (GM's discretion) to bring your total numen back under max.

You can ignore minimum numen--its purpose is to define the line between what Pathfinder calls PC vs. NPC WBL; creatures with numen below min. have their CR reduced.

I'd recommend tracking your par and overflow items in separate rows, something like:
Possessions (numen 900, par 1000): weapon (+1 attack), boots (+10 speed)
Overflow (numen 1000, max 3000): +1 armor


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
Does the [force] effect duration increase granted by my specialist bonus apply to Sudden Shield, or does the duration reduction/Extend Spell prohibition from Sudden Spell override it? Important for the next few levels until it goes to At Will at 6th...
I'd actually never thought of that! The way it's written doesn't suggest there are any exceptions, so I'd be willing to allow it.

Nice! It scales rather nicely this way:

1st: 1/day, 1 round, +2
2nd: 1/day, 2 rounds, +3
4th: 3/day, 2 rounds, +3
6th: at will, 3 rounds, +4 (essentially becomes permanent as long as you can spare a swift action every few rounds).

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
Still can't decide if Explosive Spell is a trap or not. The single-target damage potential on a conductive explosive lightning bolt is amazing, but it feels pretty lackluster attached to most other AoEs.
Nothing in the rules is intended as a "trap" option - that was an explicit design goal. To my mind, the value of Explosive Spell at higher levels isn't in the potential to add a piddly bit if damage, but rather the ability to scatter groups of enemies and/or force them back a long way from you.

That's how I was approaching it as well, and it's certainly well in line compared to building a similar effect with Cascade push or the like. I guess I just find it underwhelming attached to common lower-level AoEs--moving enemies 5-10 feet off a fireball is pretty mopey. Direct hits off a range medium line, or Widened cones/bursts are another thing entirely, but now you're looking at quite a high spell level. I did spot one nice synergy for the argent savant--the 8th level Still Spell bonus is perfect for lining up the perfect bolt AoE, though it sadly rules out Conductive. Still need to work out whether AoE damage is even worth it compared to Ray Splitting with my specialist bonuses. Which reminds me, how does the bonus damage from Warmage interact with Ray Splitting?

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
Kolmac is updated, save for assigning some spare numen.

Looks good - I especially like how you left yourself spell notes, to make play a lot easier. "Fist of force" is a great use of the spell construction system, BTW.

P.S. I just had a gin and tonic in his honor.

Cheers! I have generalized versions of the spell descriptions offline as well, so I can easily recalculate values when I level up. Practically a necessity with this spell system or I'd forget half the spells at my disposal, and helps map out which metamagic to pick up.

I sincerely hope I never need to cast fist of force-it's one of the least effective things I could be doing-but if it comes to that, I thought it was a nice touch that most of the evocations have no M/F component, making defensive casting fairly reliable.


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Eshkeval, the Card Archivist wrote:

2.) The Archivist states that I get a new cleric spell every level. Can I choose seed spells instead?

See five posts up--the distinction between seed spells and other prebuilt spells is mostly arbitrary, you should be okay to take your pick of any 1st-level seed, prebuilt, or custom spell.

Kolmac is updated, save for assigning some spare numen. Now that I've had some time to explore the spell system, I switched out bind for push, which should have a significantly higher success rate. I'll come back to bind next level, when I can buy it premodified with the grapple augment and Fell Entangling.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Does the [force] effect duration increase granted by my specialist bonus apply to Sudden Shield, or does the duration reduction/Extend Spell prohibition from Sudden Spell override it? Important for the next few levels until it goes to At Will at 6th...

Added dispel as my missing 0-level spell. Candidates for 1st-level include:

  • conductive electric arc (seed for future AoE spells, as they benefit least from my specialist bonuses and it offsets my low-ish save DCs)
  • indisputable possession (wand insurance)
  • burst of insight (out-of-combat utility, or Concentration booster in a pinch, can Augment to higher bonuses)

Anyone have strong feelings about typical utility spells e.g. alarm, protection from evil, endure elements, or any other suggestions?

Still can't decide if Explosive Spell is a trap or not. The single-target damage potential on a conductive explosive lightning bolt is amazing, but it feels pretty lackluster attached to most other AoEs.


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Standing in the middle of the room, Kolmac's shoulders tense as an he becomes aware of an unfamiliar sensation. Surveying the room and seeing nothing out of the ordinary, he reaches out with his magical senses instead, picking at the sensation like a scab...and then something snaps into place, a silvery sheen passing over his eyes as he peers into the ethereal plane for the first time.

Planar Sense 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (11) + 8 = 19


M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
Would like to request Kolmac's wand improve to a general +1 enhancement bonus to meet par.
Weapon enhancement is 2,000, so you'd need to craft the wand yourself and eat up your overflow as well.

My bad, must have had a moment while looking at crafting costs.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kolmac wrote:
Last question, I promise. Can I retcon my starting spell bind to have the Fell Entangling metamagic built in? It's pretty useless as a cantrip and effectively saves me a feat slot when I start building more complex spells, which will help bring some useful effects online several levels earlier.
Don't underestimate the Entangled condition! In one of my PBP games, the -4 Dex made the BBEG no longer qualify for his Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, directly saving at least two of the PCs' lives.

No underestimating here, I'm very into the potential applications of the bind seed (I have a whole 'personal grimoire' of possible spell combinations going). It's just a bit underwhelming all on its lonesome, and Fell Entangling goes a long way towards improving the fail case on the Augmented versions. I see now that I either need the bind seed plus Fell Entangling, or I have to buy each augmented version as a separate pre-modified spell (50 for Fell bind, 750 gp for Fell grapple, 2250 for Fell pin), so I'll have to decide whether the numen or the feat slot is more valuable.

Could you verify the number of spells I'm supposed to start with? Realized that I never got a clear answer during creation whether the wizard's 3 1st-level spells plus Int 0-level spells was written with seed spells in mind.


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M Human Wizard 2 | HP: 12 | AC/T/FF: 16/11/15 | Saves: F +2 | R +2 | I +6 | W +5 | CMD: 12 | Init: +1 | Per: +3

Believe hp is choice of rolled or average, alternating rounding down and up. Average would seem to be the wiser choice for those of you with larger hit dice.

Improved Critical makes for some great burst damage, especially if your next pick is a strike feat. Power Attack is strongest for a 2-handed fighter but it's still a respectable damage bonus for Cayden and a solid choice. Inspirational Victory could be good once your BAB is higher, but the impact seems pretty minor right now. Rallying Strike requires a higher BAB, and Combat Reflexes isn't great with your low Dex, so I'd rule those two out.

For diversifying, maybe you could divert a skill point or two into Craft (construction)? It seems like something Cayden might be familiar with, and as we've already seen it could prove useful while exploring/searching areas.

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