Kobold

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RPG Superstar 9 Season Marathon Voter. Organized Play Member. 26,400 posts (43,038 including aliases). 5 reviews. 3 lists. 1 wishlist. 3 Organized Play characters. 114 aliases.


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Female Kobold

So, literally within two days of that, I got sick. Half the household; nothing too serious. We're recovering now. It's just been a hell of a year.


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"They do get better."

But yeah, Azathoth actually seems like a really fun deity to build a cleric around. Just a goofy cleric trying to start a band.

Imot and the Lantern King are also not pre-Remaster-evil, by the by. There are a couple other "nonevil" gods, too. Of course, strictly speaking, "evil" doesn't exist anymore as an objective qualifier. Plenty of gods are still obviously awful, but plenty others are becoming a lot more complicated thanks to the change. Holy/Unholy aside, how does a given game feel about gods like Groetus, Kalekot, Nocticula, Walkena, Abadar, Aroden or Naderi? It's going to depend on the storyteller's own point of view, their ideology. There's a lot more wiggle room. I know how I see it, but someone else might see it differently. Do I even consider Gyronna or the Green Mother to be "evil", or are they too alien, too fae, to be measured by such crass terms? Is the gold dragon running that one eugenics island "evil"? Yeah, I'd say so. But there's no game engine telling me I'm right or wrong. That's just what I believe.

There's a reason this thread is titled, "Problematic Gods", not "Evil Gods". "Evil Gods" isn't as useful a term as it used to be. This thread isn't just for the wicked. It's for the hot messes, too.


"Mutilate your body" is a lot more specific.


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Naderi wrote:

Edicts: Comfort and encourage lovers, help the suffering escape their circumstances in life or in death

Anathema: Dismiss or mock a creature’s grief, separate lovers, torture a creature

A concept I've had bouncing in my head for a while is a wandering Naderian priestess who journeys from town to town finding lost spirits and corrupted creatures that must be laid to rest. She's got kind of "sad, lonely gunslinger/noir detective" vibes, and rarely gets the chance to spend much time around the living, to solve "happy" problems. She is probably local to either the Mana Wastes or Ustalav. She might have a gun.


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We're talking less about "is the deity evil" and more about how a cleric might interpret their worship, though. Like how Norgorber has special lore dispensations for nonevil worshipers. Just consider it a fun creative exercise and don't worry too much about it! I've moved it offthread.


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Hello, everyone!

So, some recent conversations elsewhere about the challenges in playing Kuthite cleric PCs got me thinking about what a fun prompt it can be. Putting aside whether Zon-Kuthon is an easy god for a PC to worship, you can definitely create a cleric who follows him who can still function in a typical party!

I think that's a neat idea to explore for all the evil or "iffy" gods! I thought we could take a stab at it.

For everyone's reference, here are the edicts/anathemas for some of the sketchier gods of Golarion. Remember: The goal is a PC who can play nice with others.

Edicts and Anathemas:
Lamashtu wrote:

Edicts: bring power to outcasts and the downtrodden, indoctrinate children in Lamashtu’s teachings, make the beautiful monstrous, reveal the corruption and flaws in all things

Anathema: attempt to treat a mental illness or deformity, provide succor to Lamashtu’s enemies
Norgorber wrote:

Edicts: keep your true identity secret, sacrifice anyone necessary, take every advantage in a fight, work from the shadows

Anathema: allow your true identity to be connected to your dark dealings, share a secret freely, show mercy
Urgathoa wrote:

Edicts: become undead upon death, create or protect the undead, sate your appetites

Anathema: deny your appetites, destroy undead, sacrifice your life
Asmodeus wrote:

Edicts: negotiate contracts to your best advantage, rule tyrannically and torture weaker beings, show subservience to your betters

Anathema break a contract, free a slave, insult Asmodeus by showing mercy to your enemies
Zon-Kuthon wrote:

Edicts: bring pain to the world, mutilate your body

Anathema: create permanent or long-lasting sources of light, provide comfort to those who suffer
Naderi wrote:

Edicts: Comfort and encourage lovers, help the suffering escape their circumstances in life or in death

Anathema: Dismiss or mock a creature’s grief, separate lovers, torture a creature
Groetus wrote:

Edicts: preach of the upcoming end times, destroy that which has outlived its usefulness, put the suffering out of their misery

Anathema: artificially extend something’s existence or lifespan, spread hope
Rovagug (more like rova-good luck) wrote:

Edicts: destroy all things, free Rovagug from his prison

Anathema: create something new, let material ties restrain you, torture a victim or otherwise delay its destruction
Baalzebul wrote:

Edicts: Convey yourself with regal dignity, claim what you desire and deserve, seek vengeance from those who wrong you

Anathema: Provoke Baalzebul’s envy, show humility
Barbatos wrote:

Edicts: Veil your motives, make dangerous deals, offer incomplete and ruinous knowledge

Anathema: Hide any plot against your masters, close or interfere with portals to Hell
Belial wrote:

Edicts: Indulge your basest desires, create deadly weapons

Anathema: Impede an act of high hedonism, become too attached to a lover or project
Geryon wrote:

Edicts: Hoard knowledge, test the boundaries of taboo, spread falsehoods to dupe the foolhardy

Anathema: Declare knowledge heresy or forbidden, break your word
Dagon wrote:

Edicts: Swim underwater, improve your own strength, encourage the spread of dangerous sea monsters

Anathema: Break a sworn oath, settle in a land-locked area, share Dagon’s secrets with outsiders
Orcus wrote:

Edicts: Become undead through choice and skill, master necromantic magic, create undead

Anathema: Become a vampire or accidental undead, give succor to faiths that seek to destroy undead
Pazuzu wrote:

Edicts: Tempt others to immoral acts, revel in flight, possess or magically influence others to cause calamities

Anathema: Deny a flying creature the ability to fly, abuse Pazuzu’s name or call on Pazuzu for help, aid worshippers of Lamashtu
Zura wrote:

Edicts: Drink blood, seek vampirism, cause bleed damage

Anathema: Expose vampires, heal a bloody wound without drinking blood from it first
Charon wrote:

Edicts: End all mortal life, exploit those who fear death

Anathema: Offer anything for free, extend mortal lifespans, grant true salvation to the doomed or dying
Nhimbaloth wrote:

Edicts: create undead (particularly incorporeal undead), feast upon carnivores that have recently feasted upon others

Anathema: None
Ardad Lili wrote:

Edicts: Manipulate others with false promises, aid women who have been unfairly maligned

Anathema: Give someone more than you receive from them, allow yourself to be swayed by lust
Doloras wrote:

Edicts: Push the boundaries of science and suffering, torture other creatures

Anathema: Show or act on emotion, allow a plea for mercy to sway you
Eiseth wrote:

Edicts: Avenge all insults, claim what you desire and deserve, humiliate your foes in ironic fashion

Anathema: Allow a slight to go unanswered, show humility or fear
Mahathallah wrote:

Edicts Become an arbiter of reality, reject conventional wisdom as falsehood, capitalize on the ignorance of others

Anathema become too invested in mortal affairs, refuse to hear a truth out of preference for ignorance
The Green Mother wrote:

Edicts: Frolic in vegetation, manipulate people, use what you kill, prey on the weak

Anathema: Hold a secret for too long, discriminate against sex workers or use their trade to harm them
The Lantern King wrote:

Edicts: Play pranks, seek new jokes, leave lit lanterns in unusual places

Anathema: Be completely honest, ruin or explain a good joke
Droskar wrote:

Edicts: achieve goals at any cost, continually improve your abilities, establish dominance, work ceaselessly

Anathema: fail to work toward goals or grow in skill, relax excessively or give into sloth
Kelizandri wrote:

Edicts: Instill hydrophobia in others, kill your foes by drowning them, sacrifice treasures to the depths of the ocean

Anathema: Destroy a body of water, use magic to calm the waves
Ymeri wrote:

Edicts: be passionate and quick of wit, destroy your foes with fire, inspire your inferiors with zeal and strategy

Anathema: allow yourself to stagnate or lose motivation, extinguish destructive blazes
Imot wrote:

Edicts: Search for omens in the natural world, push the boundaries of mathematics, study past disasters

Anathema: Withhold your understanding of a portent, prevent the destruction of things that cannot be saved
Mother Vulture wrote:

Edicts: Recycle rot and waste into useful creations, eat the flesh of your own people, kill without mercy if it benefits your community, help to raise children

Anathema: Poison insects or scavengers, waste food or good materials, allow rot to poison an area, create undead
Dahak wrote:

Edicts: Kill metallic dragons, destroy things at your whim

Anathema: Spare a foe after you have chosen to kill them, forgive a slight
Gyronna wrote:

Edicts: Expose hypocrisy (real or imagined) in others, make other creatures miserable, demand bribes to spare creatures from your torments

Anathema: Allow others to slight you without retaliation, seek the approval of society, forgive those who have wronged you
Kitumu wrote:

Edicts: offer sacrifices to Kitumu, feed the hungers of nature with humanoid creatures

Anathema: step on a firefly, kill those marked by Kitumu
Ydersius wrote:

Edicts: seek to return Ydersius to life, fulfill your passions, conquer your foes with no mercy, achieve glory for serpentkind

Anathema: put the needs of others above those of serpentfolk, aid the spawn of Azlant
Hastur wrote:

Edicts: Spread Hastur’s Yellow Sign, hide the true nature of your worship, promulgate the play The King in Yellow

Anathema: None
Azathoth wrote:

Edicts: Gather a court of devotees, create discordant piping or babbling

Anathema: None
Lahkgya wrote:

Edicts Steal luxuries for yourself, destroy property for fun, demand bribes to spare creatures from your torments

Anathema Work honestly for something you could steal instead, kill a monkey

Just for fun, you can roll 1d100 by the following list:

d% for:
01: Azathoth
02: Hastur
03-04: Mahathallah
05-06: Ardad Lili
07-08: Nhimbaloth
09-10: Doloras
11-12: Eiseth
13: Shivaska
14-15: Zura
16-17: Pazuzu
18-19: Orcus
20-21: Dagon
22-28: Lamashtu
29-35: Norgorber
36-42: Urgathoa
43-49: Asmodeus
50-56: Zon-Kuthon
57-58: Baalzebul
59-60: Barbatos
61-62: Belial
63-64: Geryon
65-68: Gyronna
69: The Green Mother
70: The Lantern King
71-76: Naderi
77-82: Droskar
83-84: Charon
85-87: Kelizandri
88-90: Ymeri
90-93: Imot
94: Mother Vulture
95: Dahak
96: Kitumu
97-98: Ydersius
99: Lahkgya
100: Groetus

Guidelines:
For the purposes of the exercise, don't worry too much about what goes into getting your official Unholy certification. Consider it more of a cosmic choice than an act of "practical" evil.

Assume characters are entering a party that is at least somewhat open-minded to clerics of ominous gods as long as the cleric themselves is well-behaved.

As in the rules, Anathemas are unavoidable, but Edicts are flexible. You can have a character who maybe just hasn't had the chance to struggle against an Anathema yet, though. You know, "Well, of course I'd free a slave if it came up, but I'm more focused on the contract stuff and I don't live in Cheliax. Frankly, I don't think Asmodeus really cares about that stuff, that sounds like something those Chelaxians tacked on."

In other words, future ex-clerics are fair game.


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I'm not sure what Unholy sanctification actually involves, aside from positioning yourself on the other end of a cosmic war. Unless it forces you to eat a live baby, I feel like it could be flavored as more a situation of, "Sure, I guess it positions me against the angels, but what have angels done for humans lately?" It's just too big for some mortals to really wrap their heads around as more than an abstract concept.


Has anyone done a thread for brainstorming "friendly" clerics of sinister gods yet, now that alignment is gone and it's becoming much more tenable? I'd love to brainstorm some affable Naderians, Lamashtans and Kuthites.


Cole Deschain wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
But if Zon-Kuthon isn't a god of BDSM, he's a god of self-harm and torture. There's not a lot left if you dial him back past that.

Darkness and the fear to be found within it, and becoming that fear.

Loss, how both survive and inflict it.

Surviving your pain and showing others how it feels.

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger" taken exactly as it is written without giving a moment's thought to all of the ways that statement isn't inherently true.

Expanding your sensorium through ever-more intense physical and mental trials to achieve self-mastery.

Like I said, a creative player can work around it! But self-harm is in Zon-Kuthon's Edicts. The first thought people are going to have is, you know, Reavers. That's fine for a supplement god like Naderi--I have tons of ideas for a noir-themed follower of Naderi who's focused on finding the ghosts of wayward lovers and putting them to rest--but for a core god, it's valuable (not necessary, but valuable) for "new players" to be able to intuitively access them regardless of where they're coming from. That's why Norgorber and Asmodeus are great! You can choose to focus on the serial killing and slavery elements if you want, but equally prominent, if not moreso, are their emphases on secrecy and contracts. Asmodeus can just be a mean cartoon devil. Urgathoa can just be the goddess of undeath. Even Lamashtu, arguably the second-edgiest god after ZK, can just be the Mother of Monsters.

Also, while Lamashtu is very, very edgy, her edicts and anathemas are actually pretty easy for a PC to play straight in any campaign! She's also just on Urgathoa's level of "too cool a villain to throw away without a damn good reason". I'm not sure Zon-Kuthon is on her level.

Personally, I really like Kalekot and kind of wish he was more emphasized over Zon-Kuthon as a PC option. Now that dude's a great reflection of what to do with fear.

By the way, I fully understand the logic of "I'd rather the dead god be chosen based on what's best for the story", and I partially agree! But I also think that if you're going to kill off a god, the setting needs to be left in a good place for new players who don't know the story and are looking for options. I absolutely think that "this god doesn't have a lot to offer or reflects a version of Golarion we're not really interested in emphasizing" is worth considering. I think Paizo will be taking both factors into consideration.

EDIT:
Just to help drive home what I'm talking about, here are the evil gods' Edicts and Anathemas, excluding Rovagug.

Lamashtu wrote:

Edicts: bring power to outcasts and the downtrodden, indoctrinate children in Lamashtu’s teachings, make the beautiful monstrous, reveal the corruption and flaws in all things

Anathema: attempt to treat a mental illness or deformity, provide succor to Lamashtu’s enemies
Norgorber wrote:

Edicts: keep your true identity secret, sacrifice anyone necessary, take every advantage in a fight, work from the shadows

Anathema: allow your true identity to be connected to your dark dealings, share a secret freely, show mercy
Urgathoa wrote:

Edicts: become undead upon death, create or protect the undead, sate your appetites

Anathema: deny your appetites, destroy undead, sacrifice your life
Asmodeus wrote:

Edicts: negotiate contracts to your best advantage, rule tyrannically and torture weaker beings, show subservience to your betters

Anathema break a contract, free a slave, insult Asmodeus by showing mercy to your enemies
Zon-Kuthon wrote:

Edicts: bring pain to the world, mutilate your body

Anathema: create permanent or long-lasting sources of light, provide comfort to those who suffer

Of these, I would say that Asmodeus's and Zon-Kuthon's are the most difficult to run PC clerics of. Asmodeus clerics can't free slaves and are directly guided to produce nightmare players ("the goblin surrendered!" "sorry, God says it's torture time :)"). Kuthite clerics are directly told to "mutilate their bodies", which, you know, isn't very ambiguous. These two are the gods who are not only overtly evil in their requirements, but also overtly disruptive--they force behavior that is very likely to make players uncomfortable.

On the other hand, Urgathoa works okay as long as nobody in the party directly hates undead or it's kept as a long-term goal like lichdom. They aren't allowed to destroy undead, of course, which can be a big problem in some campaigns if they don't have other tools or handy compromises. Don't play Age of Worms with an Urgathoan priestess.

Norgorber can be a little tricky with the "show mercy" thing, but aside from encouraging your favorite edgy assassin boys, he's pretty manageable. And Lamashtu can actually work great! A lot of her edicts are pretty sympathetic, and the one sketchy Anathema--"treat a mental illness"--is pretty interpretable. Some official versions of her have been published with that wording directly softened, even.

This was a fun exercise. Asmodeus is way more "problematic" as a PC god (as in, disruptive) than I realized, and Urgathoa might be a little trickier due to that one rule. I think Zon-Kuthon might be more disruptive than Asmodeus, but it's closer than I thought. Happy to concede that!

EDITx2: Also, I know Edicts aren't "strictly mandatory" like Anathemas are. I don't think that's super relevant here, but I'm aware!


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Dark Oni wrote:
With the prophecy in mind, those dungeons might be Cayden's nightmares/the Starstone influence manifested

Ooh, wait, fringe theory set off by this: What if all these stories are nightmares of the deity who's actually about to die? A goddess of the night whose dreams are so powerful they manifest as false prophecies?

Man, family gatherings must be so awkward when Shelyn takes her girlfriends and Desna and Zon-Kuthon have to interact. Like, sure, Sarenrae and ZK don't get along, but Zon-Kuthon must be like Desna's super rude coworker who's constantly undermining her projects and eating her bagels.


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I think the problem with ZK is less that he's problematic (he is the evil BDSM god, but Calistria is literally called The Savored Sting) and more that he's a little closer to the R-rating than their core material is really aiming for nowadays. Like, the core material is marketed as pretty close to all-ages. Zon-Kuthon is a core deity, but it's pretty hard to create a non-disruptive cleric for him in a typical campaign.

You can minimize the slavery stuff for a cleric of Asmodeus, the sex stuff from a cleric of Calistria, the hedonism and cannibalism from a cleric of Urgathoa, or even the birthing imagery/monster-boinking from a cleric of Lamashtu, and they'll work okay-ish in a nonevil or prudish party. They can blend in. They can focus on other aspects and be mostly fine.

But if Zon-Kuthon isn't a god of BDSM, he's a god of self-harm and torture. There's not a lot left if you dial him back past that.

A skilled player can totally make a non-disruptive Zon-Kuthon PC. They can also do that for the Green Mother. There's a reason the Green Mother isn't emphasized a ton as a PC option. and the reason is COWARDICE

But seriously, Naderi's another great example. Great goddess, hard to play well. And for what it's worth, most evil gods are challenging to play clerics for in a typical party! But Zon-Kuthon might be the hardest aside from Rovagug. He's just flat-out not a great fit for even some evil-aligned parties. A cleric of Zon-Kuthon is bound to harm themselves, restricted from giving comfort to suffering allies. No other core god has a code that inherently yucky.

If he isn't dying, I think a pseudo-redemption like Nocticula's, or at least a gradual reframing like what's happening with Lamashtu's anathemas, may be at hand for good old ZK.


Female Kobold

Things have finally started to slow down. Still some hecticity, with some friends' move into town being complicated by an incredibly toxic outgoing roommate and one of those friends basically having to camp out here until the person is gone, and we have a big furniture shopping day coming up, but overall? Better. It's nice to slowly return to normalcy!


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gnollvalue wrote:
My current main theory is that Zon-Kuthon dies and Shelyn becomes more distant overall in grief or in pursuit of answers.

Zon-Kuthon is a good bet, since there's a real meta problem of "how do we solve the Nidal problem." Since some of the stuff that's been written about Nidal is dark to a degree that Pathfinder doesn't really do anymore. It just seems weird to say "well, Cheliax doesn't do slavery anymore" (a good change,, IMO) when their neighbor to the north is still kidnapping people to slowly and gruesomely torture to death in service of their warped god.

If Zon-Kuthon gets bisected by his sister, that sets up for Nidal to still be an occasionally horrifying place (There's a lot of vampires around) but less of an overwhelmingly horrific place.

This is one of my bigger guesses. I think my top picks are Torag, Iomedae, and ZK. Members of the Ray are also very strong guesses, and I have this really strong sense that Norgorber is the most likely of the "overlooked options". That guy might know enough to set off a hundred wars, especially if he knows things about the Starstone.

Of the "interesting" (obviously consequential or emotionally devastating) options, I think Gozreh, Nethys, Calistria and Lamashtu are probably safe. Not 100% sure about Rovagug or Urgathoa--the latter was an early guess, but I've weakened on that a lot. If Nethys dies, the War of Immortals might be triggered by a surge in wellspring magic, spellcasting becoming not weaker but wilder and more dangerous. I think he's pretty safe, though.


This is clearly an oversight, but devil's advocate: light is an absurdly strong cantrip. "Impossible to quickly douse" seems like an interesting balancing point alongside sunrods and torches.


Female Kobold

Sorry for how badly things have slowed down! Things have been pretty hectic since... well, since November, but especially over the last couple of weeks. Since February, we've been navigating multiple moves, multiple dramas, and a few (minor) health scares. I'm very eager to get things rolling, and I think things are starting to ease up at long last. I sure hope so. I could use a break!


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Starfinder is a separate continuity, so it's not relevant here in terms of what's happening in Pathfinder. :)

Anyways, I feel like Rovagug wouldn't starve to death. The only way I can see him dying is by devouring himself. I genuinely don't say this kind of thing often--stories have infinite possibility--but I don't see any other explanation for him dying that wouldn't feel contrived or utterly change the tone of the setting. Like, sure, maybe the combined forces of Leng and the Dark Tapestry could take him (although I think I may doubt it), but what would that actually mean for the setting to have such an invasion take place?


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:

So in answer to 'why'?

Because I am complete trash for a cute sapphic romance or twenty.

"You know, the Core 20 turned into an all-lesbian pantheon so gradually, I didn't even notice."

In the follow-up event to War of Immortals, Paizo starts dropping prophecies about which male god is going to start HRT. Everyone's so sure it's Cayden. It's actually all of them except Cayden.


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Nervously Self-Clarifying Tangent:
To be clear, I am very very much not trying to say that specifically Corvus is equating or conflating anyone or anything. I just mean to say that I haven't personally seen evidence of Arazni being aromantic or otherwise flat-out disinterested or interested, and while I think the interpretation is solid and compelling, and I love to see aromantic representation in stories, I don't think the backstory of her being mistreated and wanting her freedom necessarily means she has to be aromantic. So far, I feel like the evidence is entirely neutral.

Like I said, I have my own biases, and I am happy to cop to that! I like stories about the healing power of romantic love because I like romance stories period. There are other ways to heal, with or without romance and with or without love. I just like what I like.


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I think Torag's a solid bet. It makes sense for Torag's clergy to be doing soul-searching specifically as a part of the story of Torag's death and the aftermath. Imagine if Torag goes down fighting alongside orc gods against a new threat, like Rovagug rattling the cage. That requires buildup and a solid character arc.

Alternatively, imagine if ZK's death leads to the Star Towers being damaged somehow, leading the dwarven and orcish peoples to alliance against some terrible new threat associated with Rovagug.

I like both these theories a lot. I think Iomedae is neck-and-neck with Zon-Kuthon and Torag for "most likely". I was already hesitating a lot on Urgathoa due to her sheer uniqueness (she's the first undead and a great villain! You can't kill off the Original Ghoul!), and now that Paizo staff seem to be gently urging us away from treating Arazni like a direct 'replacement'? Yeah, I think those three.

EDIT: I also saw a great theory about Rovagug's death totally disintegrating the gods' nonaggression pact. Devil's advocate for that: Rovagug's death doesn't have to make the world "safer" if it wakes up his spawn, gets the gods squabbling with each other again, and leaves a god's foul rotting corpse at the center of the earth. There's, like, no way it's happening, but it is a cool theory.

CorvusMask wrote:
Also why are we assuming that Arazni is interested in romance?

First, handholding doesn't equal romance! I deliberately toned it down from kissing. But in answer to your question, I specifically stated what I wanted to happen, not what I think will happen. I don't know Arazni's romantic proclivities. I do feel like conflating "traumatized" with "aromantic" is unnecessary here. It's not problematic, it's a perfectly fine interpretation I support, it's just not mine.

So in answer to 'why'?

Because I am complete trash for a cute sapphic romance or twenty.


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I kind of worry that "Bury Your Gays" has become a little overused as a trope term. I don't think it applies if the death is narratively appropriate and the gay couples aren't being treated like they're expendable. The Prismatic Ray is the most prominent deific love story in the setting--even if they all died (which they won't, of course), that wouldn't be gay relationships being cast aside in favor of straight relationships, that would literally be love itself being destroyed, which is the very opposite of devaluing gay people. I literally can't think of a straight couple among the gods that could "take their place" the way it happens in movies.

Anyways, it's not Bury Your Gays if Arazni takes Desna's place. ;)

You're right, though, that Desna might be too pivotal to the setting. I'm not sure I agree, but she's definitely up there in terms of "thematic keystones". Like, she's the centerpiece of the first scene of the first installment of the first AP Paizo ever made.


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anyways what's important here is I think Arazni should get to hold hands with a goddess and possibly multiple


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Arazni and Iomedae are ultimately both kind of victims of Aroden, so I think it would be an impactful moment where anything could happen. Arazni is clearly going through some changes when she moves to Core, and starting to move past her trauma and let some people in (in a very guarded, careful way) could be among those changes!

Anyways, I agree that it's likely to be an impactful god! Gorum probably does go on the list, I just forgot him. I left Irori off the list because I think he could make a lot of sense for setting off the War of Immortals with his death. As the god of self-improvement who willed himself into being a god, him shattering himself to spread shards of immortality across the world to anyone who wishes to pursue perfection? That tracks. Yes, he's a little boring, but that might be all the more reason to write him off in a way that makes him retroactively interesting. He's not high on my list of maybe-deads, but he's on there.

Sarenrae, though? I absolutely agree her death would be powerful. I also kind of agree with a previous poster that I'm not sure Paizo would kill off the goddess linked to their iconic cleric. I'm not wedded to that, but I think I can bet on it with at least some comfort. I think other gods are more likely. She's probably more likely than Erastil and Gozreh, though.


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magnuskn wrote:
Stormlord506 wrote:
Just gonna throw my two cents out there, I think it's gonna be Iomedae. No reason to have two heralds of Aroden in the core 20.
Actually that should engender some rivalry between the two, which would be good narrative fuel.

Imagine the drama, though, of Iomedae dying in Arazni's arms and passing on her portfolio to her. Arazni is now forced into the role of the Successor, but Iomedae wants her to do what she couldn't, say what she wouldn't. The new Successor's active dislike for Aroden would reflect our own maturing understanding of the God of Humanity and perhaps give Iomedae a final bit of closure to her arc. She never wanted to be the Successor, and her loyalty to Aroden prevented her from realizing she was better at her job than he ever was.

In general, if it's not someone like Torag (and Torag dying alongside the orc gods while fighting against a mutual threat would be a great way to send him off), my strongest theory is that whoever dies, Arazni will be given/take a piece of their portfolio, as Desna did with Curchanus. Maybe it'll be Desna herself. Now there's a wrinkle for the Prismatic Ray.

A lot of gods could make sense, but the ones I think I'm comfortable saying are safe? In order, from "least safe" to "most safe", Erastil, Gozreh, Sarenrae, Abadar, Lamashtu, Calistria.

Maybe leaning so hard on Lamashtu and Calistria, two other Chaotic gods, is a dangerous bet. But alignment is going away, and on a dumb and purely meta I genuinely don't think Paizo would ever get rid of Calistria, the goddess of sex, in favor of Arazni, the patron of the abused. That just feels like a weird dichotomy, intended or no. It could work, but I don't think it'd be the right move. Lamashtu, meanwhile, just feels like too fantastic a villain to throw away.

EDIT: Sarenrae, Erastil, Gozreh, Gorum, Abadar, Lamashtu, Calistria. Calliope's right, Sarenrae's definitely more likely to die than Gozreh.


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Razmir, The TRUE LIVING GOD wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Razmir, The TRUE LIVING GOD wrote:

I am also safe.. FYI.

ALL HAIL ME!

I can't wait for a level 20 jock Exemplar to shove Razmir in a locker.
Rude...

razmir all "ugh, hardy-har-har, real mature, you guys"


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My Theories:
Zon-Kuthon fits really well for a swap with Arazni. Like, really well. On the other hand, Urgathoa would fit just as well if Paizo wants to take undeath in a new, more complicated direction with Arazni as their sole patron. As my sleeper picks, Norgorber (what happens to the world's secrets when the God of Secrets dies?), Cayden (here comes a new goddess of freedom, and she is scary) or Iomedae (imagine the heartbreak of Arazni, even more jaded towards Aroden than Iomedae, having to take the place of the Successor).

that said if we're betting on "most redundant" we all know it's torag

EDIT: Oh, a friend and I are also speculating on Irori pulling an YISUN and fracturing himself in an act of divine suicide, leading to the rising tides of Exemplars.

Desna would also be a very compelling swap. I don't want her to be, but she would be.


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This kicks ass. Also, good for Urgathoa. She's unliving her best unlife.


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KingTreyIII wrote:
Quote:
Match the mythology
Side-eyes the wendigo

I think that dude needs to be just flat-out wendigone. He should go the way of Slenderman--make a new monster that plays with the same tropes that fascinate people, but call it something else and add some new ideas. Make an antlered "ancient ghoul" or a cannibalism fey spirit or the like.


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The mummy's Choking Pain ability is really cool! Like, I love it when monster attacks double as story moments. At the end of the day, all that matters is that I can use this in my Age of Worms campaign, so it's good design.


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I wonder what's going to happen to the troll augurs of Kaer Maga?


I personally really like it when the creators put their own spin on a myth (when it's respectful of the cultures the myth is from, of course), because it's a chance to see a new creative vision instead of a reprint of someone else's stories. But I know that's not so much Paizo's style these days, and I am also really excited for the directions they're taking with creatures like the hags as they move closer to their fairy tale origins.


The tone of this argument feels a little needlessly hostile for what seems to be (from my understanding) an argument about whether banshees were mythologically Fey or Undead.

Personally, I think they should be undead gnome spirits. Best of all worlds there. Elves always get all the attention; gnomes deserve the pathos. Gnomes are often bards, too! Perfect match-up. We don't have enough scary Small-sized monsters.

Ooh, or what if she's an undead/fallen psychopomp? Totally new direction for her there. I'm being a little silly, here.


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FallenDabus wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Wait what is the issue with the word golem?

Original first usage of the word was from Jewish mysticism, they were legendary constructs that could be created by inscribing words in Hebrew on their foreheads.

The most famous legend is the Golem of Prague from the 1500s, which was created by a rabbi to guard the Jewish people of the city from anti-Semitism. The golem goes mad on the Sabbath and eventually has to be shut down by the rabbi.

I can see an argument for it being problematic since it pulls from non-mainstream folklore. On the other hand, so do genies and kami, and they clearly aren't going away (and most people would argue they aren't problematic).

My Jewish friends like them because it's fun to see your culture represented in the game. For them, I get the impression that it's comparable to seeing Tian Xia if you have Asian ancestry, or Rusalkas if you have Slavic ancestry. Makes you feel more welcome. But I can see the counterarguments to the contrary, and I certainly don't want to argue with anyone Jewish who's offended by it.

*sigh* really that's it? That's why the name is changing? I don't even know what to say to that reason.

So, unfortuately I'm several months late and hopefully this doesn't derail, but I do have a more detailed answer for you. Give that it was recently confirmed the golem is becoming the bulwark, I think its topical too.

When ever the discussion of golems in RPGs comes up, I always think of this post. I know several Jewish RPG players very unconfortable with the use of the word, and even though I know many who are okay with it, Heavy Arms explains his issue very ellquoently. I've included it below the spoiler, so others can read it too and hopefully find it as helpful as I have. It is notable because he has no issue with golems existing in RPGs... he just wants them to actually be golems.

You can read the post I've quoted below in its original context...

Thank you for sharing it! Very compelling read.

I should also note that Paizo has indicated other "mythological/modern religion-based monsters", like genies and rakshasas, will be seeing changes to move them closer to their roots. Really exciting to see what we're getting! The homogenized pop culturey versions always felt like less than they could have been.


Female Kobold

Had to fix a misunderstanding on the Roll20 from memory, so let me know if anything seems out of place! I'll get the next batch of ankou actions up tomorrow.


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Female Kobold

Oh, this is a silly little thing, but I'm going to be taking Sundays "off" from now on. It feels super weird to describe a game as "work", but PbPs actually stress me out more than work sometimes. They're worth it--most of the stress is entirely just from perfectionism--but if they're causing me that much fuss, they probably also need a formal day off.


Female Kobold

Alright, I'm gonna turn back to updating the game tomorrow!


Female Kobold

Got a bit of the post done, but this was a big day for executive dysfunction. Not sure how long it's gonna take for me to get everything "back online".


Female Kobold

I'll probably get the next post up on the 30th or so, when the holidays are past and I'm done decompressing from it all! I know everyone's probably pretty worn out.

I'm lowkey hoping to get caught up on everything by tomorrow as a birthday present to myself, but my other birthday present to myself is not to commit to that as an obligation, so no promises.


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Female Kobold

It's the end of the weekend, so gonna hit everyone with a prompt, but I know things are about to slow down as the holly-days approach.


Female Kobold

As a second update, I've just about got everything but this game under handle. I'm hoping to be back to the swing of things by the end of the week.

One of these years I'll learn that NaNoWriMo is just going to be a month off. XD


Female Kobold

As an update to everyone (I always forget that not everyone's in the Discord), I'm slowly inching my way back into PbPs and everyday life in general. Fixing my sleep schedule has been the real trick. I went to bed at 4 last night, by entirely my own fault.


Female Kobold

Yeah, this is turning out to be a bit of a valley, but I'm working on fixing my routine now.


Female Kobold

Sorry, all, Thanksgiving sort of wrought havoc on things, and it's been all I could do to keep up with holidays, NaNoWriMo and work. Now that things are beginning to quiet down, I hope to resume things soon.


Female Kobold

I'm going to take today specifically off from PbPs, so I'll get back to work on the update tomorrow! I just need fewer plates spinning in my head. :)


Female Kobold

I will aim to get the combat started properly by around the end of the week, now that the map is all set up! Thanks to StormDragon for that. NaNoWriMo's just keeping me busy and it's a bit of a balancing act. Yesterday I spent all day baking a birthday cake and dinner for a roommate and had to cram until 11:57 to hit my nightly wordcount goal. I'm tired lately!


Female Kobold

Yup, I tracked those down!


Female Kobold

So, Rynjin and I are planning to move things to Roll20! I think we delayed because people's phones couldn't handle it, but Rynjin has some sort of premium thingamabob that should make that work, I guess? My focus is on getting that rigged today.


Female Kobold

I'll get a response up to all this ASAP--I'm really loving the character moments and enjoying everyone coming up with ways to contribute, but I don't want to take too light a touch and let things lose their momentum.


Female Kobold

Well, I wound up spending literally my entire day in the kitchen and my last few hours of "technically today" catching up on NaNoWriMo, so... well, tomorrow should be fine. Monday and Tuesday are always my busiest days. Tomorrow will be fine, unless I get absolutely terrible news on my RPG Superstar entry. :P


Female Kobold

Had a very busy day, but I'll try to get the encounter launched proper tomorrow!


Female Kobold

I may not be able to post until Wednesday; got a packed schedule tomorrrow with a doctor's appointment, client appointment and it being my day to cook.

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