So this last session, and Bandilar's capture of the spell details, highlights one of the problems in the game (3.5) for higher level play that should have been straightforward enough to address - TOO many active spells on any one PC.
At some point there should be choices to make ... if I add another spell, I am going to lose a random one OR I need to dispel one on me to make room for it.
Just like there are body slots for magic items, there needs to be some form of spell slots for active spells on a PC. I just don't know if it would be by spell levels (total) or number of spells or some combination.
Once such a rule or framework were derived, it could then assist with dispel magic. That was very difficult to run and yet an important component of higher level play. I am thinking that some type of sheet for displaying spell information (like the magic body slot sheet), would provide double duty here (spell slots, dispels, type and power of spell for various magical 'sight' and aura detections).
Player comment as they received a deadly barrage of demonic siege engine fire concentrated on the portal point when they entered: "... and why did we use the portal and not just approach the area via Plane Shift ... or Greater Teleport from our boat via River Styx to Abyssal Ocean to Gaping Maw?" I didn't have an especially compelling answer for them other then "distract Demogorgon with an open portal point. Fortunately, they stayed put and fought it out.
As the ruler of Gaping Maw, Demogorgon can close access to that layer. That's why Iggwilv creates the portals, she's using an epic spell that circumvents Demogorgon's power to seal off access. Plane Shift or Greater Plane Shift just wouldn't work.
JustTim wrote:
Does full cover vs. the caster mean it must be a line of effect? In the case I dealt with there was a Wall of Force. The PCs had no concealment - since the Wall of Force is fully transparent; but full cover only on frontal, not from above. Does this situation mean since the Spell Caster (or siege weapon) can target the PCs, and there is a path (albeit not a line of effect) to the target (a popup path), that the PCs could in fact be targeted?
Line of effect is a straight line. If you're on one side of a wall of force and your target is on the other, you can't target him with a spell.
I hadn't thought of the ruler of the plane angle - good point. So is that called out anywhere, or just implied? I like it, and will be comfortable using it.
Yeah, on the line of effect. I just wondered if Magic Missile would be different given it's almost mythical staying power in this game. I also wonder about the concept of total cover - is it total cover when it blocks line of effect only; so two-dimensional cover?
Firstly, I'm a first time DM for a bunch of first time players (as well as new to the forums). This was my first ever PC death.
What an experience.
KP - not easy, to be sure, but like all such experiences, it does become easier for everyone involved. I agree with all of the previous posters. As the players get higher level, between cocoon, and revivify, and raise dead, and resurrection, and reincarnation, and true resurrection, I can't tell you how anti-climatic death is, to say negative hit points (yawn). And it happens all the time here in the AP. It makes those who survive relish it all that more.
Several interesting dynamics have taken place for us.
1 - The PCs often chop off a finger of someone they might want to resurrect later (gruesome, but effective) and store those in one of the portable holes.
2 - A number of players relish the opportunity a death presents to bring in a new character that they optimize for demons. We have one that joined at the battle of Farshore, entered melee, and last 5 rounds. We call her the 30-second gal.
3 - Due to a Devil subplot in our campaign, and some actions the PCs took against Glasya (who was sponsoring the Dire Hunger Monks in Scuttlecove), she has been slowly collecting all of the dead that she can so that at this point a virtual party of deceased PCs (some souls, others actual mortal bodies) are under her control in Hell. The PCs know it, are frustrated about it, resolving to address it if they survive STAP, but also afraid of dying because of it.
If you're interested, check out our campaign journal (a bunch of 30-year players).
Thanks, JT. Yeah, constant True Seeing is a very cool thing to deal with those oh so clever PCs.
It's funny since that's the one ability that ticks my Players off (ruining displacement and other buffs that they heavily rely on). Yet the players go for it themselves all the time.
SR, Mass + Super-large Monk, Warblade, and Ranger/Pyrokineticist made this less of a "storming Normandy " and more like "walk in the park".
Even the biggest demons there couldn't do anything worthwhile to them.
I tend to agree ... especially since the biggest challenge for the PCs was dealing with something new (blast disks, force ballistae, acid launcher). Once they recovered from that, they largely handled it, although the number of Demons and the terrain meant it took a bit of time, but once the PC plan was in effect, the ending was a foregone conclusion.
As the DM, I think the value of this encounter is three fold:
1 - PC expectations: this is war, not just melee, and so they need to be prepared for a change in the sheer scale.
2 - PC expectations: okay - some new items were thrown into the mix, which for a bunch of very experienced min-maxers, is always thrilling.
3 - Whittling them down: just one encounter, but others are calling, so more and more spells will begin to get used up.
4) Magic Missile reads "The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover". The implication is that is does not hit if the target has full cover vs. the caster.
Matthew,
Two questions for you ...
1) What's a barrage balloon? Sounds cool.
2) Does full cover vs. the caster mean it must be a line of effect? In the case I dealt with there was a Wall of Force. The PCs had no concealment - since the Wall of Force is fully transparent; but full cover only on frontal, not from above. Does this situation mean since the Spell Caster (or siege weapon) can target the PCs, and there is a path (albeit not a line of effect) to the target (a popup path), that the PCs could in fact be targeted?
1) Plane Shift has a miss chance of 5-500 miles. Even Greater Teleport can fail if they don't have a reliable description. Iggy was using the thin area between the planes as a target for her gate(s), and thats not a valid target for Gr Teleport. You also have to consider the interdiction zone, it might affect teleports to the beach.
But the best reason is that the party are there to clear the beach so that the invading army of Eladrin can use the beach as a staging area (to distract Demo.)
We discussed that, and I had Iggwilv bring that up ... but after all they have been through, the players, and their characters, are highly skeptical of everyone's motivations. They know they are being used and trying hard to accomplish their mission without being pawns.
Hired Sword wrote:
DM Mistake 1), if the summoned Demons can't touch them, they should stand back and use Dispel Magic to drop that buff and then attack, or just use their SLAs if they can't crack the Caster Level.
Problem with Dispel Magic is that the players were so buffed with spells (minutes/level and hours/level) that it was highly unlikely any one Dispel Magic would get to the needed spell (Prot v Evil). The summoned demons were also only Babaus and Hezrous. Well, the Babaus don't really have any truly useful SLAs, so that left flanking physical attacks which should have been thwarted by Prot v Evil. Then the Hezrous, fewer of them, were actually using SLAs.
Hired Sword wrote:
Thanks for this insight, my players won't be there for awhile, but I am already prepping some ideas I have. I wrote a program to randomly map the Blast Disks so that I don't have to mark up the battlemat and potentially give away their locations.
How did your group handle the blast disks?
With Reflex and evasion, little damage. Although they were all using Wind Walk/Cloud Walk, the proximity would have gone off. The reality, however, is that they were able to attack from a distance and once they realized the blast disks were there, they could fly high enough (perfect movement, too with that spell) to avoid the proximity.
Some other prep to do:
1. Go ahead and determine how many summoned demons are present and where they appear. I just went by percentages, if Hezrous had a 35% for another Hezrou, and there were 12, I had 4 appear.
2. Based on my read of the time it takes for the portal to fully form, combined with the alert status of the Demons (anticipating danger), the initial actions and summoned demons were already in place by the time the first characters came through.
3. Much like an LST from WWII, the characters had to come through in 3 ranks (not all could fit in at once). So as they arrived, they needed to move out of the way (I said it too 10' of movement as part of a movement action, to move through the portal, so they largely moved through and out and then had a standard action).
4. Since the demons with siege weapons were readied on the portal, I allowed the first wave of characters to be hit with a readied action (firing the siege weapons) as an interrupt to their initial move action through the portal. So it hit them on the first wave.
5. The acid launchers did almost nothing given the Prot v Acid (30) and then evasion.
6. You also need to decide if you are going to let magic (acid, magic missiles) pass through the portal to the other side. The other side in our case was their ship.
What's been your experience with this encounter? Here is ours ...
Tonight my players assaulted the beach portal point - it took about a four hour gaming session and concluded in cinematic style since their victory was clearly established.
Encounter Details:
Unexpected
1. Player comment as they received a deadly barrage of demonic siege engine fire concentrated on the portal point when they entered: "... and why did we use the portal and not just approach the area via Plane Shift ... or Greater Teleport from our boat via River Styx to Abyssal Ocean to Gaping Maw?" I didn't have an especially compelling answer for them other then "distract Demogorgon with an open portal point. Fortunately, they stayed put and fought it out.
2. How powerful a dozen Hezrou Unholy spells were on massed players. Although they cured all damage with one Mass Heal.
3. Mass Greater Energy Resistance (+30), several, made the call lightning (Nalfeshnee) and the acid siege weapon virtually impotent (especially with reflex saves by PCs with evasion).
Creative Player Strategy
1. Used Earthquake to basically take multiple siege weapons out of action ...
2. Used Tsunami to sweep up all visible Demons at the bunkers
3. Used high Reflex saves and evasion to completely ignore Blade Barriers (Mariliths)
DM Mistake(s) - mine
1. Summoned demons - shouldn't have been able to physically attack the PCs with Prot v Evil. Oops - but ultimately didn't decide anything.
DM Successes
1. Provide each of the four types of demons their own initiative roll to divide it up among the players turns.
Interesting Situations
1. If you can see through a wall of force, and there is room around it (left/right/above), would magic missile be able to target a creature (in range) on the other side, or is this a case where straightforward line of effect is prevented? My ruling - given that magic missile is a special spell in the annals of the game, so long as the path was within range, and provided that the target could indeed be seen and thus 'targeted', it would work.
Good catch, I missed this one. I also noticed that the STAP write up of Malcanthet left off a persistent True Seeing, but it was in FC 1. This is a crucial ability when dealing with an optimized party.
A quick Malcanthet (STAP instance) for James Jacobs - Was it an oversight to leave out the true seeing that she had in the FCI or was there a rationale behind dropping it in the STAP description?
Yes, I've found exactly that problem. One of the concepts I am working on relates to quality and quantity. There are certain feats or abilities that make a qualitative difference in the power of a creature/deity, regardless of the power of the PCs. Two good exampes are True Seeing and Evasion/Improved Evasion.
Then for quantity, I think a template for deities would also address the numerical issue - as in AC/HP/Atk and so forth. From my standpoint, until the characters are deities, they will never quite approach the power of deities. But each campaign is different, so you can never really settle on one absolute CR for the deities. So I think an approach that might work is to assign a floating CR.
A floating CR would establish a minimum for the deity (e.g. 25th level), but also establish a minimum number of levels ABOVE the party ECL. So if the party has an ECL of 23, and you want the deity to be at least 10 above, then the Deity CR is in this case ECL+10 or 23. It could be represented as MAX CR (25, ECL+10). All numerical stats could have easy increments for determining how they are advanced.
It's good to hear you guys are still going. You'll be finishing up soon! When you do finish I suggest you roll right into RoTRL, that's what my group did after ST. We are now half-way through HMM in RoTRL.
cibet, pardon my ignorance, but which AP is RoTRL? Is that the first PF AP?
The closest I have ever come was useing the celestial template and removeing all the other benifits except for stat bumps. We dropped the ECL from 4 to 2 that way.
Steven, I hadn't thought of that. I'll look at it later today. I might have some additional questions then.
Steven Tindall wrote:
I am of the mindset that after 20+ levels players should let their charecters retire and then start a new race/class combo.
Before I would have agreed, but the Savage Tide AP has me looking at it from a different perspective. It's fun to provide them some sense of power just out of reach but close enough that they might be foolish to tangle with it. After reading the Lightning Thief series, I am much more open to the active involvement of deities along the lines of the Greek Gods. They are more than human, but also very human.
Steven Tindall wrote:
As far as updateing the rules for ascension the rules I've heard are if it hasn't been updated from 3.0 to 3.5 then it is still in play as is. Which if you look at the 3.0 class expansion book means that some really awesome spells are still around.
I haven't really thought about ascension, although that is a logical progression. I think our game would end at that point but I should look at it to cover my bases.
I am not impressed with the rule set for Gods (even when updated for 3.5). Since this was a pre 3.5 product, it never got a full treatment. Now that I've been gaming a group of experienced power players, it seems both too much (too many rules) and too little (too many basic characteristics and capabilities are ignored).
It really seems like divinity should be a template, also incorporating divine rank. Has anyone done something like this or given it any thought?
one problem with the Fire Drake in Into the Maw (came up last session - upon their return to the prison) ... it has a poor flying ability and can only fly at 60'. That means a double move up in the air (1/2 speed * 2 or 60 feet) is slow, and it will take forever in game turns for the fire drake to rise the 1000 feet to the prison - so more than 15 rounds!
I am the DM for this group and they have been a blast to play with! They are incredibly innovative and keep me on my toes. I can't wait to post my own version of this journal (the back story, essentially). What is probably the most ironic aspect of this AP is how often they play right into its design (when they think they are 'off the reservation') and then the opposite - when they think they are being led in a direction when it's really their choice. Quite early on I just let them do what they want insofar as their choices are concerned, and that has kept it really interesting for me as well as made it much more dynamic.
I hope the most recent sessions get posted soon as there have been some interesting developments - including two character deaths against Death Knight S'Sharra.
A quick Malcanthet (STAP instance) for James Jacobs - Was it an oversight to leave out the true seeing that she had in the FCI or was there a rationale behind dropping it in the STAP description?
Nonetheless, if someone wants to play and doesn't have access to the magazines - where do they go today? Does Wizards have the pdfs for sale?
The Paizo site right here sells the AP, I believe.
Yep Here it is, all the Dungeon issues with STAP in them plus the Player's Guide. The first issue is only available in PDF but you can purchase them all.
Interesting that the second to last is out of print and there is no PDF. So long term, what will be the official solution for someone trying to play this and who is willing to pay? Will they need to go to ebay?
That's SCAP wiki. Intrestingly enough, they have a page for both Savage Tide and Age of Worms, although both don't work. With RPGenius permission (or whoever made that wiki), we could set up a page on their site, it'd be a wonderful resource. I'd also be willing to help, since I'm DMing for a party of 6, and we're on 9th chapter and I made a lot of modifications for NPCs, encounters etc.
I just checked out this site - wow, it gets me excited to actually run SCAP. Too many adventures - not enough time!!
I was surprised at the level of detail. I need to go back to the hardback and dungeon to see what was included/not included.
I was also thinking that one of the things which would help with STAP would be to have a breakdown of recommended figures for each chapter. Shoot - it'd be great to have a lending library of figures for some of the more rare ones.
So you're on the 9th chapter (Divided Ire?). Are you journaling or are your players? I've advanced S'Sharra and will do the same with Vanthus. I've also used the old Stronghold Sourcebook (3.0) to add some more logical protections. It looks like that's what they used when constructing Divided's Ire.
Don't think it matters who owns the copyright to be honest! The same principles apply. Probably the golden rule would be 'don't be a prick' rather than any hard-and-fast adherence to copyright law. As long as the magazines are still required to run the campaign (ie, the wiki isn't detailed enough to actually allow anyone to run the AP without buying the magazines) we're probably safe enough. Anything posted on these boards is probably fine for instance.
...
To be honest I don't think it'd be a major issue, but I kinda LIKE Paizo and I don't want this to be a headache for them in any way. And I don't want them cranky at me! ;)
I, too, am fond of Paizo. I was thinking along the same lines. Nonetheless, if someone wants to play and doesn't have access to the magazines - where do they go today? Does Wizards have the pdfs for sale?
I would definitely be in support of something like that. I lost all my gathered stuff for STAP a few months back in a computer crash, and the place I got most of it from is a dead link now. Having a central location where all this stuff is available would be awesome.
Orthos - I am seriously interested in this. To really have it be scalable - something that is both useful and can grow with all of the source material and fan material, I would want to establish a handful of requirements. These would be design-neutral objectives.
I've only dabbled in wikis.
One of the cool ideas would be to add a link for campaign journals.
But it's easy to focus on features rather than the actual content - which should be the driver - and specifically what we think people should be able to do with the content (e.g. Players and DMs).
I wouldn't be opposed to helping put one together, especially since I'm planning on putting up my retooled and Gestaltified enemies here myself for people to use.
My thoughts, too. I also believe it would be great to present something with about three tracks:
track 1 - planned AP with notes on particular situations (e.g. clarifications, corrections)
track 2 - planned AP with altered stats/encounters (e.g. buffing up Vanthus)
track 3 - extensions (side journeys), such as the sea journey or in scuttlecove.
I think you could have a Rogue's Gallery, if you will. As well as gaming aids, additional maps, music lists.
Is there any such thing out there today? I haven't found one.
There are so many great ideas whether addressing the AP as is or adding additional materials. It would be great to put it all in one easy to reference space.
What would be the obstacles to building one?
I would love for it to mine everything in this part of the message boards. I'm sure that others, like me, have extensive files of support whether as builds (e.g. advancing monsters), or adding flavor to encounters.
I'd love to know what others think about this. This does appear to be an active area of the message boards. I also believe STAP is a classic that will be played for years to come and is a great one to introduce to new players.
A lot of NEW players have jumped in with this edition, so for them, this advice isn't old hat. I doubt it contains any non-edition specific stuff I haven't seen over the last thirty years, advice-wise (seriously, there are only so many different ways to show someone how to DM well, and, if you add in every other non-D&D RPG I've played, damn, that's more advice for GMs than we can shake a stick at...), so, were I to DM 4e, those sections probably wouldn't interest me much, but there are, I'm sure, plenty of new DMs who have never seen any of that type of advice.
Some of the old school have to remember something about 4e: the game isn't really being marketed to us. Sure, WotC would like us to play, but they're trying to generate interest in the younger generation, one that has a lot more stuff vying for their attention than we had at the dawn of the '80s. So, they really need to make an effort to make the game as easy to learn and run, in an interesting and fun manner, as possible.
I do disagree with your comment that the advice is old-hat. After playing for 30 years, and owning every book from every edition, and all of Dragon and Dungeon, I still found quite a bit of new techniques.
I agree with you insofar as the marketing is concerned.
Yes - that's the one. On the one hand, I'm happy to throw him some bones and let them bypass this kind of thing. He's almost tenth level, paid the xp and got the spell permanencied. Guys like that should be powerful.
It's just that the last few fights with invisible chaps have been a bit annoying...
"The room is empty, quiet and a bit stinky, blah, blah, blah... and you notice illusion magic in this corner. Sigh."
Then there was the illusion from the Naga, invisible Olangru and his harem, and a few other illusionary trap/ terrain things.
... and though it's nice to have such a power it shouldn't turn out to be a win button quite so often IMHO. Nor should it constantly spoil my fun :-). Dispelling it is cheap - hence this thread for an extra level of threat.
If I had a time machine I could just houserule Arcane Sight - caster level check to notice auras.
That's a reasonable solution. Perhaps one you can introduce after some discussion and a significant stopping point within STAP. If you know it's already a problem, don't let it fester. I used to think the same thing with 8th graders - whom I taught. A more experienced teacher told me that it was okay to change the rules of the game (or the classroom) midstream, just discuss it, establish a date, and don't look back.
But for some other potential solutions, as I've been thinking on this over the weekend. What about some variation on these items:
1. Use Nystul's Magic Aura to turn magic items non-magical or to change their aura entirely (per the spell description in PHB)? The only challenge is that it can't be made permanent. Of course, it probably won't help with an illusion per se.
2. Use the old wood, metal, lead coverings to prevent items from showing through.
Now, as I write this, I am thinking of a third approach:
3. Arcane Sight doesn't reveal the true nature of an illusion, just one that is present. So it makes the PCs more suspicious. So use that. Perhaps the illusion is of something bad (rather than good) so rather than avoid it, they move forward. It just happens to be of something bad over empty space rather than something good over empty space.
Then for this particular trap, you can try a more mechanical approach:
4. Perhaps there is no illusion. Rather, it is a weakened floor section (secret door or passage way is elsewhere) or it is an actual pit trap where some combination of pillars (mechanical) needs to be pressed for it to open without someone standing on it and falling in.
In general for STAP - or any campaign - I can see how persistent Arcane Sight would present an issue. Some of the critical factors might include the fact this person does not have Quick Reconnoiter, so to really look around (one 60' sector at a time - per Dispel Magic) would take a move action.
In addition, Dispel Magic works wonders. Later in STAP (e.g. Scuttlecove, and especially in the Abyss), opponents have Greater Dispel Magic.
I agree that you should let players leverage what they have earned, such as this. But that means they might face different challenges.
I will be curious to know what you actually end up doing - please do tell. And if you're interested, our journal (by the players) is for the 30 year veterans for STAP. We're on session 63 or so and in the middle of Divided's Ire.
When the party reaches the weapon cache temple, a character with Arcane Sight will instantly insure that the party bypasses the trap. He's doing that a lot recently ;-)
Any suggestions? Let him have his shallow victory? Change it all?
Just to be clear - are you referring to
Spoiler:
the Part Five: Temple of the Jaguar - 2. The Jade Jaguar, the permanent illusion?
Is it limited use? For example, a Spellthief? If so ... just ensure that there are other opportunities to use it so it becomes part of their resource management.
I just happened to have looked over 4E DMG2 at Barnes & Nobles this weekend. I was impressed by the discussion of role-playing. In fact, it took the entire discussion of shared story-telling in directions never before addressed in any previous Wizards/TSR/Paizo publications IMHO. I am excited about some of the ideas, and it clearly represents a compilation of best practices from what must be some exciting play groups.
FYI - we tried 4E and have demurred. My gaming group is active in the Savage Tide Adventure Path using 3.5 and all of the splat books. We'll probably migrate to Pathfinder sometime next year, but we also are keeping an eye on 4E.
Do the aranea in the northeast portion of the Isle of Dread ever appear again after HTBM?
I'm thinking of adjusting them to be a recluse group of Olman outcasts with natural lycanthropy. One of my players has been pitching an idea for a future character that is a natural wereraptor, and the brief encounter the party has with the aranea had me thinking it would be a good setup for the character's possible entrance. I'm a bit reluctant because I'm thinking the beginning of HTBM is already a little dinosaur heavy, and if the aranea play a part later in STAP, I'd like to know if I'll be needing to do any rejigging of later events.
Yeah, it's silly of me not to read ahead, but I just don't seem to have a lot of spare time these days.
That would be a nice set up for introducing a new character. You could tie them into the lost Olman tribe (perhaps they are it) which has deserted ruins on the island FarShore occupies.
Shouldn't the Lemorian Golem get 1.5 time strength bonus on the tentacle attacks since they are all primary (note: some creatures can have 2 natural weapons as primary; this golem, with two heads and four tentacles, has all four as primary) and it has no secondary weapons?
The build in the earlier installment didn't include it, and the build in this installed (Into the Maw) didn't include it. Why not, or was this a mistake?
PCs just successfully defeated the 36 HD Gargantuan Lemorian Golem and the party of 9 Vrocks (1 30HD, 4 20 HD, 4 10 HD). Innovative strategy applied by them, and no PC deaths, and they are far from depleted. But the augmented creatures definitely made the fight more interesting.
It is just entering round 7:
Rounds 1-3 Lemorian Golem
Rounds 4-6 Vrocks (they were scheduled for top of round 4 and that was just when the golem was defeated).
Round 7 (they will start next session)
-they face S'Sharra who had just cast a targeted greater dispel magic on the 17th level wizard who was currently shapechanged into a 12-headed hydra. Her targeted dispel ended Hero's Feast, Resist Fire (30), Fly, and ShapeChange.
-PCs recognized that besides the Vrocks they were finishing, someone else was around so a Purge Invisibility by the Cleric didn't work since she was outside the range (barely).
-The warlock was close enough and with his day-long see invisibility, saw her after a full round search, used a quickened invocation to target her (fizzled against her SR), and shouted a warning to the party.
-The Swashbuckler charged to the general area where the invocation fizzled out, picked the wrong spot, so missed. (S'Sharra has Greater Invisibility on).
1. Per adventure, Abyss imposes -2 CHA checks on all Good and Lawful creatures (-4 for LG). That will hurt any dispel work against undead, among other things.
2. Forbiddance is in effect which will prevent Good Summoned creatures from being employed by the PCs, a common strategy that buys them time.
3. Outside air quality will have a DC 15 Fort (D6 Wisdom/2D6 CON effect) although Heroes Feast will probably prevent this.
4. Sympathy effect in prison (DC 28 Will) comes into play, especially if the party believes they need to retreat.
5. Doors offer poison DC 18 Fort (D4 Wis/D4 Wis; addiction threat) but again Heroes Feast will probably prevent this one, too, until it is dispelled.
6. I am adding an Unhallow over the complex (per BoVD description of a Great & Powerful Malevolence site on page 36) so:
a. magic circle vs good means all have +2 to AC, +2 resist Saves
b. -4 turning undead check
c. Death Ward in effect for all direct DemoGorgon workers (old staff, S'Sharra)
d. 1d4 round local dispel if successful Dispel Magic DC 25 (again per BoVD)
7. I am also adding a Desecrate over the complex (only natural, really, I am surprised it wasn't included) so:
a. -6 Charisma check for turning undead (it is all really adding up now)
b. +2 profane bonus to all Undead attack, damage, saving throws
c. +2 Hit Points per Hit Dice for all undead
d. 1d4 round local dispel if successful Dispel Magic DC 25 (like Unhallow)
8. Outside I am adding, per BoVD, rain of blood
a. Will Save DC 20 or -1 to morale for 24 hours
All of this adds up (both to include buffing up Vanthus and his cohorts as well as weakening the party. Turtling will be hard in this scenario.
As you can see from these posts, I've decided what to do for some of S'Sharra's area:
1. Vrocks advanced and added 1 to each group
2. Lemorian Golem advanced
I still need to think about S'Sharra. I'm thinking of advancing her in Blackguard from 4 to 6 for some of the additional abilities, and then considering either additional limited classing in either Mortal Hunter (BoVD), Ranger (hunter), Barbarian (chaos element), or Sorceror.
I have other ideas for additional areas but tomorrow will be the S'Sharra work. We game on Thursday and I need to complete the Pleasure half by then (so over the next two nights).
1. Howl DC 28
2. Rot DC 28
3. Constrict goes to 3d6+25
Final note - from 2x2 5' squares with 10' reach to 3x3 with corresponding 15' reach (so no overlight of it in the 30' high ceilings (15' high + 15' reach).
Advancing the Lemorian Golem from Huge (30 Hit Dice) to Gargantuan (36 Hit Dice).
I found some anomalies in the makeup of the Lemorian Golem when I decided to advance it. Specifically:
1. Skill Points - Constructs, if they have Intelligence, only get 1 skill point per level + Intelligence modifier, and quadruple that at first level. The Lemorian Golem, unlike most constructs, has a reasonable intelligence of 11. That means 3+HD for skill points. The first one was 12 HD with 15 skill points, yet it showed Listen, Spot, and Climb as all at 16. The second one (in Divide Ire), has a similar problem.
2. Ability Scores
a. Strength - The Huge (30HD) Lemorian Golem shows an increase in Strength of 10 from the Large (12HD) Lemorian Golem. MM shows this increase in size as only +8 strength - oh well, at least the adjustments based on this are correct.
b. Dexterity - Advancing from Large to Huge should cause Dexterity to lower by 2, but that doesn't happen to the ability scores, either.
3. Saving Throws - the Saves for the Huge (30HD) Lemorian Golem are incorrect - they should be Fort +12, Ref +12, and Will +11. Constructs have poor saves which equate to (HIT DICE div 3), so:
a. Fortitude = 30 HD / 3 or ... +10 combined with Greater Fortitude Feat (+2) for +12. No con bonus as constructs don't have a Con score.
b. Reflex = 30 HD / 3 or ... +10 combined with Dex 14 so +2 mod means +12.
c. Will = 30 HD /3 or ... +10 combined with Wis 12 or +1 mod means +11.
4. Flat Footed AC - for 30 HD Lemorian Golem should be 25 (not 27 as appears in the stat block):
-2 AC for Size
+2 AC for Dexterity
+17 Natural dexterity (+14 base with +3 added with size increase)
BASE AC = 27 (matches stat block)
TOUCH AC = 10+DEX+SIZE = 10+2-2=10 (matches stat block)
FLAT FOOTED AC = 10+NATURAL+SIZE=10+17-2=25 (stat block shows 27; left out size modifier).
Do you seriously think that killing a couple of Vrocks in 3 rounds is beyond the scope of a party of 16th lvl adventurers?
And Dance of Ruin has a DC of 18. So even if Vrocks manage to pull off DoR, it means they just spent 3 rounds doing 35 dmg.
I understand your concerns but am taking a different approach. There are, after all, as written, 16 vrocks (8 on patrol, and 8 in the rookery). I am changing that to two sets of 9 configured as follows:
4 x 10hd (standard MM stats)
4 x 20hd (advanced per MM)
1 x 30hd (advanced per MM)
This means the Dance of Ruin goes from DC18 (10hd) to DC 23 (20hd).
The Spores do amazing automatic damage.
Then the Stunning Screech goes from DC17 (10hd) to DC 27 (20hd) to DC 32 (30hd).
1. Page 57 (Dungeon, June 2007) - Description of Paradise Island
"Other monsters, like fiendish dinosaurs, fiendish dire animals, retrievers, and demons of all types dwell in these jungles. If the PCs spend too much time here, feel free to have them encounter some of these deadly denizens."
The island is only about 1,000 x 1,500 feet of wooded area - that's not much at all, and certainly too small for that description of potential encounters.
2. Page 59 (Dungeon, June 2007) - Description of Prison Air Quality
"The air outside of the prison within a mile radius of Divided's Ire is foul and toxic. Each minute the characters remain outside, they must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save against inhaled poison ..."
Again, the combination of the two islands, all of Divided Ire, is small. The inset map doesn't show a mile radius from the center.
This makes me think that the islands might have been bigger and then scaled back in editing?
Could you share a link for those topics where the discussion is for changing encounters?
My party just entered and finished the fight with Vrocks and Lemorian golem. A totally dull and pointless fight since Vrocks couldn't challenge a party AT ALL. Bunch of low CR creeps can't do absolutely anything to a high lvl party, so I'll just remove the remaining Hezrous and put an advanced Marut as a prisoner, who will attack them as soon as they release him, since everyone of them got resurrected at least 3 times and thus are eglible targets for a Marut. And they're loaded with Holy/Evil Outsider Bane weaponry, so a change would do them good.
What about the Dance of Ruin by the Vrocks? Wouldn't that have some impact?
Tim, what level are your players by this time to face epic treats?
They are all 17th level (x6 of them) with 15th level cohorts (x3). They also have access to all rules from any official book, as well as most magic (i'm a bit more restrictive on magic item compendium although loosening up). As per other threads I have read, once they have access to the expansion rules, and you have 6 rather than 4, their power really amps up. In addition, I believe the leadership feat is one of the most powerful around as it allows such a powerful follower.
Now if only, you guys could include Asmodeus in the mix ;).
I had to chuckle at that. In Scuttlecove, the Dire Hunger Monks, definitely a sinking bastion of lawfulness in a chaotic port was in desperate need of a patron after the Ur-priests vanished. Who should come calling but none other than Glasya, daughter of Asmodeous! Well, she tried to assassinate Tyralandi who was saved by the PCs. Tyralandi orchestrated some other plots to get the PCs to go after the DHMs. They did, teleported in after getting detailed descriptions from Tyralandi (so helpful she was, kind of her, wasn't it) and were surprised to be facing the ritual sacrifice of one of their cohorts at the hands of a Pit Fiend (Glasya's agent). They successfully killed the Pit Fiend but were stunned by the power of the epic-level Monk leader and some of his followers. They quickly retreated, licking their wounds, back to Farshore.
What they didn't realize was that they had gone up against Glasya (Tyralandi left that fact out). They were startled to have an Imp locate them in Farshore and despite all of their best in-game thinking and out-of-game meta-gaming, somehow found themselves in a pact with Glasya through the machinations of this Imp. Ultimately the crazy wild elf Barbarian Ranger had too much of this and raged on the imp. No one (even to this day) realizes that the imp was Glasya's familiar, although they did wonder why it was such a tough imp. But the imp did get several into a pact. Those PCs continue to further damn their souls (unknowingly) by continued use of the benefits provided through this pact (skills, feats, weapons, vile damage what have you). None of these characters has actually died yet, but once they do, they will then discover that Glasya has claimed their soul and won't return it.
Glasya has decided that although revenge will be hers, she will take her time and extract maximum usefulness from the party. So, she has had her Erinyes watch the party conduct its fights, especially against the Crimson Fleet HQ so she can better understand their tactics and their strengths and weaknesses. She is also content to let them damn their souls slowly. She has already realized they will harm the demons, so that is good. And then if she can get them to return and destroy Tyralandi, even better. But the party will be hers, and she'll devote herself to that over centuries if need be.
Of course, the party hasn't quite figured this out yet, despite a variety of foreshadowing such as (1) Erinyes being spotted observing their fights and taunting them after (2) loss of Harliss when she was left on the Blue Nixie during the assault on the Crimson Fleet HQ (3) sending to Harliss that revealed she was in Hell, not the Abyss and that the cohort sacrificed by the Pit Fiend was there too (party has yet to try and resurrect her, wants to later).
The party also hasn't fully appreciated Tyralandi's position - that they double-crossed her by allying with Glasya - nor how powerful the epic Tyralandi was.
It's been fun to have this as an ongoing plot and to throw various clues in that don't yet connect for them. And the best part is it has been almost entirely driven by their choices which continue to surprise me, but keep it fun.
The party just approached the island. What advice do you have for me?
I know I need to augment the existing encounters and have read other threads on that topic and taken notes on what has been discussed. But what about any concerns/challenges with the structure of the existing encounters, their descriptions, or other areas?
For example, I found some of the room descriptions confusing and wondered why there are two shades/color patterns on the map for interior rooms?
FYI
The players are smart and heavy tactical thinkers. They have 6 PCs (all at 17th) and 3 followers, the Blue Nixie (long story) and a full complement of crew.
Generally speaking they are well buffed and well armed and play smart. After extensive dealings with both devils and demons, they are in little mood for negotiations or general diplomacy. They recognize this is a jail break and feel confident in their strength.
They include a straight wizard, a warlock, a cleric, Jakara (totemic demon slayer from earlier), a Barbarian-Ranger, and a binder.
If not already addressed, a new opponent entering existing combat sequence (where parties already have gone through first round of initiative) always appear at the top of the initiative round.
This is explicitly discussed in the Rules Compendium, and I don't believe changed by PF.
It also just occurred to me after rereading a post in the Archives on Scuttlecove, that I can add some additional demonic elements to the factions among the Monks. Perhaps some have become cultists (such as Graz'zt for Tyralandi) and so forth. There might also be demons present in some fashion trying to influence the monks through their presence, each representing different demon lords.
