John Robey's page

Just downloaded my pdf version of this one and the interactive map doesn't have the 'hide secret doors' option. Think it got missed on this one as the previous maps had it. Plus one of the maps looks like the art will need a redo to hide the doors as the secret doors are done the same as regular doors (in the middle of a 5 foot square when the walls are depicted as 5 feet thick), kind of a givaway that somethings there.

...four years later, this hasn't been fixed. Yikes. XD

Going through the various posts, there are a couple of places where I wonder if the players are getting good actionable description?

I'm certainly trying to give it to them. This group has been together a long time and they can (usually) pick up on things like when something is intended to be "also happening nearby" or such.

I definitely tell them when damage is being resisted, though. Four of the players go all the way back to AD&D with me as the GM, and one back to 3E, it's a concept they're all familiar with. And as I say, I have been trying to nudge and/or point out opportunities, without being ham-fisted about it. Sometimes my suggestions are acted on, sometimes they aren't.

To some extent, I think the players just learned to faceroll over the past ten(?) years of 5E and it's a habit that's hard to break.

Prosthetics are actually pretty easy to get in Pathfinder by RAW, and that's without touching up on the special archetypes like Golem Grafter or Sterling Dynamo.

Yup, she'll be picking one up in the next town. :)

I forgot the detail about not being able to block a critical, but problem is that he takes so many criticals he rarely gets to block anything else. XD It's like the dice have it in for him specifically.

I will bring up that part of the rule next session and try to integrate asking him if he wants to block in regular hits.

What happened to the young woman? Was she still stuck in a hypnotic trance? If you decide on a retcon to save the dead inventor rather than having that player make a new character, you could claim that the woman snapped out of her trance upon rescue, moved to the right place at the right time, and Administered First Aid in two actions to the dying inventor with a lucky successful roll. The woman could babble, "I saw her dead while bewildered by my trance. It seemed so real that I had to prevent it."

Her breaking out of the trance is what made the skeletons appear, actually. She's a competent (but not PC-level) fighter with a gunblade, and my plan had been for her to be fighting the skeletons in the background as a bit of scenic flourish—it was only when the swashbuckler worked so hard to pull them off of her that I relented and had them respond to the party.

re: the inventor, I offered the player the choice of the character dying, or taking on a long-term consequence. Since the character's backstory was that she was inspired to become an inventor in order to create better protection after her adventurer father lost his arm in battle, we decided it was fitting that the inventor should lose a limb as well, so we described it as the skeleton wolf tearing off her leg from the knee down. The character remained comatose for the rest of the session, but the player was happy with the result and went off to HeroForge to revise their avatar. :)

As far as I can tell, the rogue should have had sneak attack. Undead in PF2E do not have blanket sneak attack and/or precise damage immunity. It will say in the creatures' stat block what they are immune to. If it does not say sneak attack, then it works on them.

The mace was neither finesse nor agile, and she generally didn't get into flanking position anyway.

Who heals the party in-combat and how ?

No need for all-out healing, but a party need to have 2 emergency healers.

And the PCs have to stay within healing range. Spreading all over the battlefield and choosing different targets usually is the worst tactic.

Healing has been a recurring issue with these guys—again, the oracle wants to spend her time setting things on fire instead of doing literally anything else, leading to the magus saying "I've just accepted the fact that we have no healer." It didn't come into play as much in this particular fight (people generally went from "fine" to "out" all on the same turn), but it has been a thing. My current suspicion is that the artificer will probably pick up Battle Medicine at level 2.

-- The rogue would have been proficient with the mace as it is a simple weapon.

True. I should have said it's not finesse and she has no STR. ^.^' Point is, her attack bonus was severely reduced (and as mentioned, no sneak attack).

Overall, they are either going to need to get good or you're going to need to pull punches. Put them a level ahead of whatever the adventure or encounter design planned, or don't adjust encounters to their larger group size.

I've thought about doing the "level-1 APL" thing; I'm not excited by the prospect, but I also don't know how much willingness to get good they'll have. I think that's an OOC discussion we're going to have to have.

Yeah... What your players are doing wrong? Well, pretty much everything, to be honest. I would even say it simply like this: They're playing 5e in PF2e.

Ouch. XD But I mean, I can't say you're wrong.

Since your party is full of newbies, make it clear to them you're introducing a homebrew mechanic: They get one free action at the start of combat to do a Recall Knowledge.

This might increase the chances of them getting more information and try to use it to their advantage, it will also let them branch out into other activities in certain cases. Also, try to give the most crucial information on basic successes and on critical success give out saving throw numbers, specially abilities, resistances and weaknesses. Over time, maybe in another campaign, you roll back these rules (once PF2e Remake drops with new Recall Knowledge rules).

That's an interesting idea!

One small thing you may have missed: when you hit 0 HP and fall unconscious, your initiative moves to the turn just before it happened. This gives the party the maximum amount of time to pick said member up including with things like the Heal the oracle used.

But it's also possible no one recognized the danger the Inventor was in (or had no way to remedy it) at Dying 2.

We're playing in Foundry, which IIRC moves the person in the initiative order automatically. Unfortunately, the party was pretty spread out across the battlefield and I believe at least one of the others was also unconscious at that point but my memory is hazy now. I do think they were all surprised when she immediately failed her recovery check and died; if I'm not mistaken it was actually the first recovery check made by the group, as everyone has consistently spent their hero points to avoid the dying condition before now.

Are they playing rocket tag? Rocket tag is a strategy that works well at high levels in PF1 and D&D: it means to move fast and hit first, trying to keep the combat as short as possible. Rocket tag is not as useful at 1st level, and it is a weak strategy for a 7-member party.

Nothing so deliberately planned; each one of them wants to do their cool thing and goes to do that. XD Except for the rogue, who just wants the fight to be over so we can get back to the story. ;P

(Actually, as I've been going back through this thread, I will probably suggest to her that she might want to re-spec as a fighter. I don't know if that will fly, but it's certainly closer to how she plays.)

Can you elaborate a bit on that combat encounter with the ghoul where someone died? 7 people against what sounds like three enemies (a ghoul, a skeleton, and a zombie?) all of which are APL or lower feels like it should be extremely free, like the kind of encounter where not everyone even gets to take their turn because the enemies go down so fast.

Four enemies, actually, there were two skeletons, and those were the real problem. But specifically:

Level 1 Team:
* Hobgoblin Magus, 16 Str and Int; can't seem to land a meaningful spellstrike but is working on it
* Halfling Rogue, Dex 18, tends to use archery when possible but neglects to hide (which I have nudged her to do)
* Tiefling Inventor, Int 18, with a subterfuge suit; the one who died after a crit fail on her armor explode and then getting swarmed
* Kitsune Fire Oracle, Cha 16, insisted on using fire even after learning skeletons resisted it, and actually told the rogue to come over and take the mace out of her sheath and use it, rather than stop using fire herself -.-
* Human Swashbuckler, Dex 18, most tactical one of the night, scooped up a bone from the ground to use as a club because nothing else was working
* Human Summoner with a lightning dragon eidolon

Opposition:
* Level 1 ghoul
* Two level 0 wolf skeletons (from Book of the Dead); resistance 5 to cold, electricity, fire, piercing, and slashing
* Level -1 zombie hound (from PF #181), has knockdown and does extra damage to prone creatures
* "Second wave" of two level -1 skeleton warriors who were visibly lurking in the background but were not going to join in the fight until the swashbuckler taunted them; also resistance 5 to cold, electricity, fire, piercing, slashing

The Setup:
The party is escorting a young woman who is being targeted by an ancestral curse (think Mina Harker being tormented by Dracula); BBEG hypnotizes the NPC into wandering out into the woods, party tracks her down, BBEG summons undead interference, pretty straightforward. The "second wave" skeleton warriors were mostly set dressing, menacing the NPC, but the swashbuckler deliberately aggro'd them away from her in a move which was heroic but tactically very unsound >.>

Things the Party Did Right:
* The zombie hound was taken down with something like two hits
* The ghoul was nearly one-punched by the magus and easily finished off by the oracle

Things the Party Did Right That Failed:
* The swashbuckler attempted to Recall Knowledge to try to identify the ghoul; unfortunately, they rolled an 8, and that was the last RK check anyone made
* The swashbuckler did also come up with the idea of using bones on the ground as a club
* When prompted by the oracle, the rogue did in fact come forward and take their mace to do bludgeoning damage; of course the rogue was not proficient and couldn't sneak attack with it, but at least it wasn't resisted
* When the summoner realized his eidolon was getting pounded by the wolf skeletons, he withdrew and attempted to kite; unfortunately, his lightning breath was completely ineffective against their DR
* The magus engaged the ghoul and hurt it quite badly, but then got a critical chomp and a nasty claw that skipped right past paralysis and just knocked 'im out
* The inventor started with a critical success on Overdrive, adding +4 to their damage, but that damage was a shortbow >.>

Things the Party Just Plain Did Wrong:
* The oracle wanted to use fire, and so they used fire. And kept using fire. And kept using fire. It was only after two people were down and the inventor was "dead" that she finally said "FINE, I'll use disrupt undead."
* As mentioned, rogue won't hide and won't flank, I don't get it
* Magus and summoner basically cycled through electricity and cold next, after fire was established not to work... which of course were also resisted
* Swashbuckler wasted time pulling and engaging "background" monsters that would have ignored the party (which, admittedly, they had no way of knowing)

Evil Dice:
* Failure on DC 15 Recall Knowledge check made them decide not to "waste any more time" on Recall Knowledge
* Critical hits by the ghoul and the skeletal wolves did lots of damage and knocked people prone multiple times
* Inventor used a hero point to reroll their initial failed Overdrive check, leading to critical success—which was great until they got taken down by a critical hit and had no hero points to prevent going straight to dying 2
* Once at dying 2, inventor immediately critically failed their first recovery check and died instantly

So to some extent, it was kind of a perfect storm of bad luck combined with bad decisions; honestly if I was going to point "blame" I'd put it at the feet of the oracle who wants to just Set Fire To All the Things All the Time; once she "got over" that and started doing stuff effective against undead (including a three-action heal that only did 2 points, but brought up two unconscious party members and hurt three monsters), the encounter ended pretty quickly.

And with the benefit of 50/50 hindsight, if I'd realized the skellies were effectively immune to most of the party's primary damage sources, I probably would have done something like four zombie hounds instead, but I am leery of doing too much 'massaging' encounters either for or against them.

To start with the basics:

What is the party's character level and what is the level of the enemies that they are facing? That is the big dial. That is what is going to make fights seem like nothing hits - because the level difference is too high. (either that or Negativity Bias)

The players do need to spend some of their actions on defense. That will help them keep their own HP. Anyone with Shield block should consider using it.

Similarly, they should be spending some of their actions on debuffing. Lowered AC is easier to hit. Similar for other stats like will saves.

Attacking the enemy's stats or actions is at least as valuable as attacking their HP.

So, like you mentioned: a synergized and cooperative party is much more powerful than a loose collection of individual gloryhounds. Trying to solo-fight an entire party-balanced encounter on your own really will be that punishing.

They're 1st level, fighting mostly 0-level but anywhere from -1 to 2. I did overtune my first couple of encounters because I was unlearning bad habits from 5E, but this past weekend it was a level 1 ghoul backed up by a level 0 skeletons and level -1 zombie. By the math it should have been a "moderate" encounter (it's a 7-player group), but they still had a character death. It wasn't the ghoul that did it, tho: the skeletons resist 5 against every damage type in the party. XD

So I've run about 10 sessions of 2E across two groups at this point (we were just starting to transition when the OGL nonsense went down), and the whole "PF2E encounters are brutal" thing is definitely showing up here. But besides just being brutal, the encounters have been uniquely frustrating in that the players just can not seem to get their specials to land.

The swashbuckler either blows their attempt to Tumble Through and just throws away an action instead, OR has panache but can't manage to land another hit ever.

The champion only ever gets critically hit. The first one breaks their shield, the second one breaks them.

The magus either can't successfully hit with a spellstrike, OR the monster insta-dies from the weapon attack and the spellstrike is wasted.

(The rogue not getting sneak attack is on them for never hiding or flanking.)

Is this... normal? I feel like my players are being trained "Never Attempt Specials, They Do Not Work." One group is going through Abomination Vaults, the other is homebrew stuff using the established guidelines, and both groups end up every fight Wounded 2 and with 7 hp spread across the party. Even handing out hero points like candy doesn't help because they just get hoarded to ward off Dying 2 From Critical Hit.

They do tend towards being gloryhounds, and I've been trying to nudge them towards more tactical, team-oriented play; so I know that some of this is their own choices biting them. But even not-always-optimal play shouldn't be THIS punishing, should it?

-The Gneech

James Jacobs on the Into the Darklands stream just now: “We’re not gonna be doing much with the Drow going forward.”

...

EDIT: Cavern Elves, now “Ayindilar,” will get some love. Duergar have been renamed to Hryngar and reworked some; new ancestral magic, have a society driven by paranoia and resentment. Svirfneblins are just Umbral Gnomes, now named Drathnelar in-setting. Sekmin are thriving in a number of Sekamina fortress-cities, plotting a surface invasion.

As somebody in the middle of running Abomination Vaults, I gotta say I love the "morally vague" presentation of drow there, and I really feel like just dropping them completely will leave a pretty significant hole. Serpentfolk are alien and hostile; caligni are creepy and kinda gross. Drow have a Bond-villain suave ambiguity that opens up lots of roleplaying opportunities.

I get the whole OGL business; I also get that I can keep on using drow in my own campaign until the cows come home. But I would really like to see a feasible take on an OGL-friendly and "oof"-less equivalent.

-The Gneech

Red Hand of Doom is a great war campaign that I have sadly never seen run through the end.

I ran RHoD from beginning to end, pretty much straight as written, and it was one of my group's all-time favorites. :) First time I've ever actually done a campaign completely straight out of the book, and it worked really well.

-The Gneech

Almost every game I've been in since 1987 has had at least one gal in it, to wit, Mrs Gneech. :) As for respect, at least half the time she's the party leader, She Who Must Be Obeyed. ;) Highest ratio of gals to guys I've had in a group is 50/50.

-The Gneech

As a general rule, if I don't GM, there is no game.

I do -love- to play tho, and eagerly grab any chance I get!

-The Gneech

I find that quote particularly amusing in a game with optional psionics and rules for crossovers with Boot Hill and Gamma World in the core rules themselves.

From my recollection, whatever his intentions, no one actually played by the book, RAW, 1E AD&D. Even if they tried, there were far too many rules that were misunderstood, unclear or even contradictory.I don't think I ever understood initiative, for example. I'm pretty sure I still don't.

That quote may have been his original intent or a way of distinguishing between AD&D & Basic, but I don't think it ever had any relationship to reality.

As far as I could tell, you couldn't do it if you tried– because we tried! We had all the 1E books and we interpreted them as best we could, but they were built on earlier D&D which was built on Chainmail which was built on... (etc.) So there were a lot of baked-in assumptions that people who'd been wargaming since 1971 "just knew" that weren't in the rules anywhere.

-The Gneech

Paizo publishes shorter modules than adventure paths, and even has a subscription service, so you can get them mailed to you regularly. I've only played a few of them, but they've been very good.

Generally, Paizo does adventures very well. That's part of why I'm such a fan of Pathfinder Society, and why I still play Pathfinder, even though I'm mildly annoyed that it's reached the point of rules bloat.

Oh, I know! I used to be subscribed and probably still would be if I had the budget at the moment. It's the closest thing to what I want on the market.

-TG

Oh yeah, one-off adventures are certainly findable, but once upon a time they were delivered in my mailbox quarterly with high production values without me having to go hunting for them. Hence, my griping about it in an "air your grievances" thread. XD

-The Gneech

John Robey wrote:

3) I don't particularly like adventure paths or megadungeons, and that's all the Big Names do these days. -.-

Uhm, what do you like?

I like single-adventure modules ("Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" sized, for ex), smaller adventures, and sidetreks that I can easily string together myself. (Hence item #4, that Dungeon magazine doesn't exist. Before the emergence of adventure paths, it was far and away the best value in gaming.)

-TG

A thread for venting about your roleplaying experiences. Your GM won't let you play that kitsune kineticist you're dying to try out? You killed an ancient black dragon and all you got was a lousy +2 sword? The other players make fun of you when you try to roleplay an accent? Your game has been canceled for three weeks running? Whine about it here. Please keep the tone light and friendly.

1) I am sick of being the GM all the time because

2) If I don't GM, there is no game!

3) I don't particularly like adventure paths or megadungeons, and that's all the Big Names do these days. -.-

4) Dungeon magazine doesn't exist. 'nuff said.

Thanks for letting me vent!

-The Gneech

Well there's me, for starters. Depending on the game there's usually at least one or two more in the group. Holmes Basic Set (with chits because they ran out of d20s to include) was my gateway drug.

Ironically enough, I am JUST NOW finally running "The Keep On the Borderlands," converted to 5E, for a mixed group including some first-game-ever players who are half my age. "Back in the day" I mostly rolled my own dungeons. :)

-The Gneech

It was at a convention. It doesn’t matter which convention it was, nor really who the other participants were. I will say that we were at least theoretically supposed to be playing Mongoose’s Conan d20 game. My character was a Bossonian archer; my memory is that the other characters were an Aquilonian soldier (P1), a Zamoran rogue (P2), and a Stygian sorcerer (P3). Basically, except for the Cimmerian barbarian, we were Ye Olde Hyborian Cliché Party.

That’s okay, RPGs are like that. But little did we know what were were getting into from there…

(Note: This is paraphrased from memory.)

GM: You’re in Nemedia, all headed for a tavern. It’s getting dark. Up ahead the road goes through a narrow gorge. (draws the road on the mat)

Me: Uh-oh, smells like ambush. I’ll hang back.

P3: I’ll hang back too.

P1: Well, I guess I’ll march ahead then.

P2: I'll head for cover.

GM: A bunch of bandits pop up out of the rocks and charge you! Roll for initiative. (we do: P2 gets the highest player initiative with a 15, I get an 8)

GM: Okay, the bandits go first. These three attack you (P1), these two run towards you (P2), these two run towards you (P3), these two run towards you (me). (rolling dice) Two hit you, doing 15 points of damage.

P1: Holy crap! Good thing I’ve got 23 hit points.

P2: Okay, my turn. I’ll move forward and attack this one. (roll) 15?

GM: You miss.

P2: Wow, on a 15. What kind of armor are they wearing?

GM: They’ve got a real high DEX.

P2: Oh. Okay.

P1: (roll dice) 20! Let’s see if I crit. (roll) 16?

GM: Nope, not a crit.

P1: Aww, crap. Okay… (roll dice) 15 points of damage.

GM: (frowning) You kill that one.

P1: Sweet! I’ve got Cleave, so I’ll attack one of the other guys next to me. (roll dice) 18.

GM: Miss.

P1: Miss? On an 18? Seriously?

P3: My spells all take like 10 minutes to cast, and all I've got is a dagger. I flail around defensively and use harsh words on them.

Me: (doesn’t roll anything like a 20, so I miss) I waste some arrows.

GM: These two attack you (P1) again. These two see their friend go down and break off from you (P2) to go attack the fighter.

P2: Cool! Attack of opportunity time! (starts to roll dice)

GM: Nope, they have Combat Reflexes.

P2: What does that have to do with it? Combat Reflexes just gives you extra attacks of opportunity.

GM: Not Combat Reflexes. The other one. (looks at his notes) Mobility.

P2: So they get a bonus to their AC. I still get to roll, tho.

GM: No, one of my house rules is that Combat Reflexes mean you just don’t get attacks of opportunity against them. You would have missed anyway, this is faster.

P2: …

GM: (roll dice) Okay, that one hits you (P1) for only 5 points of damage that time.

P1: Cripes! I only have 3 hit points left.

GM: Suddenly this amazingly gorgeous woman comes around the corner. She’s wearing nothing but these skimpy furs, and some fur boots, and a big fur cape. She’s got this amazing flowing blonde hair and blue eyes, and she’s obviously a barbarian. But she’s like, hot. She has 18 Charisma. She’s carrying a big, blood-spattered axe.

Me: Well there’s something you don’t see every day.

GM: It’s her initiative right after the bandits, so she charges the bandit that just hit you. (roll dice) She kills him! She’s got Great Cleave, so she attacks the other two.

Me: Doesn’t Great Cleave mean you can only keep attacking as long as you kill each target?

GM: (roll dice) Well, she does.

P1, P2, P3, Me: Ooohkay.

P1: Well, uh, I guess I’ll move to this guy and attack. (roll dice) 14.

GM: You miss.

P2: I’ll move into flanking position, with the +2 that gives me (roll dice) 18.

GM: You miss.

Me: Guess I’ll shoot! (roll dice) 17.

GM: 15. You’re -2 for shooting into a melee.

Me: You mean the -4? I’ve got Precise Shot.

GM: That’s one of my house rules. Precise Shot means you only get -2.

Me: (sigh) Doesn’t matter, I would have missed anyway.

(next round: barbarian chick easily wipes out remaining bandits)

GM: She says, “My name is Anima. You’re lucky I happened to be here, this road is dangerous. These bandits were probably searching for the cursed amulet I carry.”

P2: No doubt.

Me: I recover whatever arrows I can and say, “Well thank you, Anima. We’re headed for the tavern ahead.”

GM: “I’ll join you, in case more bandits show up and you need my help.”

P1, P2, P3, Me: (exchange dubious glances)

GM: You go to the tavern. Anima orders a huge chunk of meat and just starts eating it right off the bone. Then she guzzles down a whole mug of ale all at once and orders another. She obviously has no idea of what to do in civilization.

Me: Uh huh. Well I’ll go find a seat somewhere and order a meal.

P1: I guess I’ll sit with Anima. I eat about the same way she does!

GM: You spend the meal staring at Anima. She’s hot.

P3: I spend the evening lecturing these local barbarians on the inferiority of their culture!

P2: I’m looking around for pockets to pick.

GM: (roll dice) You find about 22 silver pieces from picking pockets.

(fast forward over a painful scene of attempting to do a little RP talking to the innkeeper and such that goes nowhere)

GM: Anima says, “Those bandits were sent by an evil wizard who wants the cursed amulet I’m carrying. We have to go kill him.”

Me: Like, right now? It’s night.

GM: “Yes. We’re going now.” (erases the canyon from the map, then draws almost-identical lines to indicate a road) So after paying your tavern bill, you start heading for the wizard’s tower. You’re walking on a raised road that goes through a swamp. Anima says, “There’s undead in this swamp.”

P1: Bring ‘em on! They need wiping out.

GM: Anima says, “Be careful what you wish for!” (laughs the typical “I’m an evil GM and you’re in for it!” laugh)

Me: I’m not afraid of undead. We’re protected by Mary Sue the Barbarian.

P2: (snicker)

GM: These zombie-things come shambling out of the swamp at you. They all have gemstones in their chest that look like the amulet Anima is carrying. She says, “Oh no, they’re being drawn to the power of the amulet!” Roll initiative. (we do: I get 19, P1 gets 11, P2 get 15) Okay, the zombies go first.

Me: Wow. Before my 19?

GM: Yep, they’re really fast.

Me: Huh. Really fast zombies.

GM: They all shuffle towards Anima. (creepy groaning noises) She snarls and says, “I hate undead!” and attacks.

Me: Because her initiative is higher than 19, too.

GM: (roll dice) She kills that one. And with Great Cleave, she runs over and attacks the next one (rolls dice) but misses.

P1: Uh, I’m pretty sure that Great Cleave doesn’t let you move.

GM: Yes it does. That’s one of my house rules.

P1, Me: (shrug at each other)

GM: Okay, your turn.

Me: (roll dice) 20! I assume I can’t crit these guys.

GM: No, you can’t. Also, you missed.

Me: What??? I rolled a 20!

GM: Yeah, but they’re undead. You need a magic weapon to hit them. Anima can hit them because she’s carrying the amulet that gives them their power.

Me: …

Shortly thereafter, the session ended due to time. Strange as it may sound, the other players and I did manage to have some fun, but for all the wrong reasons. It was a bit like a cross between a tabletop RPG and living an episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000.

-The Gneech

I ran a session against a vampire spawn with legendary actions, and it worked quite well!

Report here: http://the-gneech.livejournal.com/2469272.html

-The Gneech

My only real difficulty has been gauging encounter difficulty. The XP Budget system presented in the DMG requires a lot of tweaking due to the number-of-foes multiplier and can present some pretty strange results if you push it too hard (such as the popular example of a solo lich being a moderate encounter at a given level while a lich accompanied by two kobolds is an epic encounter).

After having been spoiled by the Pathfinder encounter budget system, which I always found to work really well, the 5E system is head-hurty and ends up generally just getting kicked to the curb. The good news is, if you just keep in mind that a tough fight is "solo above CR, two foes of CR, four foes of 1/2 CR, eight foes of 1/4 CR" as a rough estimate, and limit your tough fights to the big moments, you can pretty well eyeball the rest.

Getting used to the idea that "most" encounters should actually not be that tough required a certain mental shift as well after being used to "four encounters then sleep" for the past decade. But that wasn't a function of the system so much as how the expectations of the gaming community at large had shifted.

Suddenly fights seem so easy! And so fast! The monsters barely got to move into position before they were mowed down! Suddenly fights don't take an hour and I need to fill the game session with other stuff! A problem I'm very happy to have, actually... but definitely a culture shock.

-The Gneech

I was blown away by how quickly and easily it played, especially combat. With or without maps and miniatures, or starting in one mode and switching to another, turns are fast, furious, and fun (to steal a phrase from Savage Worlds). That was made me switch, actually.

The other thing I've been pleased with is how robust character creation is, even tho it's been radically simplified from 3.x/PF, especially if you use feats. Backgrounds open up customization options for creating all sorts of interesting concepts, and abandoning the 3.x/PF model of "nerf everything and use a feat to be able to do something" has made choosing a specialty a more character-defining moment. Everybody can do interesting things, but choosing a feat to emphasize a particular ability makes a big impact.

I was able to convert a 4th level whip-wielding drow bard from PF to 5E over the course of about 10 minutes, with the trickiest thing being the selection of Martial Adept to get access to the trip and disarm maneuvers.

-The Gneech

Age of Worms!

-TG

I haven't used this one, but give it a try:

http://brentnewhall.com/games/1e5e.html

-The Gneech

In a recent podcast, Mike Mearls said they were expecting people to want the game complex, and found to their surprise that simpler was preferred over and over again.

D&D has a much broader audience than any single given group– just because it didn't go how you (the editorial "you" not any specific person in this thread) or anyone you know didn't care for, doesn't mean it didn't go in a way that lots of people were asking for.

Even 4E was more feedback-driven than people tend to think it was: the main difference is 4E was based on a smaller subset of players (primarily organized play), while 5E casts a much wider net.

(Podcast in question can be found here: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/interviews/dmg-design )

-The Gneech

This was a nice thread once. Now it feels like it's been burned down for failing to pay protection money.

-The Gneech

Heh. I wouldn't go Storyteller for worlds, and I used to write for those guys.

Really it's a matter of what you like! For me, 5E is right in the sweet spot of "rules are robust enough to create what you want, without requiring a calculator to use." It's not as arbitrary (and occasionally flat-out nonsensical) as 1E/2E, and it's not the giant mathematical exercise of something like HERO.

It doesn't have the baked-in multigenre utility of Savage Worlds, which I would like to see. Give me a "build your own class" module, and I'd be using it for everything. (SW has a lot of good things going for it, but it also suffers from feeling like there's basically only one or two effective character builds for everything.)

-The Gneech

4E's changes to Eberron were relatively light, and the campaign setting book is a great overview for the DM. I used it as the basis of my Pathfinder Eberron game, actually. :)

Eberron is so big, with the "If it exists in D&D, there's a place for it in Eberron!" philosophy, that you have to approach the 4E version like a salad bar: take what you want and leave the rest.

3E version too I guess, now I think about it. ;)

But yes, the 4E stuff is mostly good. What's not good about it, is stuff that was not good about 4E in general.

-The Gneech

I love it as an alternative, the same way I love having pancakes for breakfast every once in a while, but wouldn't want them every day. :) It's a cool, fun setting that's just right for certain types of adventures, and not so great for others.

-The Gneech

I have a question about CR. If a CR4 monster will be a challenge for a level 4 party, would two challenge a level 8 group and three challenge a level 12 group, etc? Is this how bounded accuracy works or have I misunderstood the concept?

It's not so linear. Here, play with this a bit to see how different CRs interact with the party level.

http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

-The Gneech

I want to play a multiclass elf/dwarf.

-The Gneech

PS: Spoiler alert, no I don't.

My DM is having us make perception checks throughout combat, not just during surprise. Three rounds in the people in the back still need to make perception checks to see if they can see the bad guy thats been fighting their buddies....

Yeah, that's just the DM being annoying for reasons that make sense to them alone, I suspect. :-`

-The Gneech

Is there a rule about making a perception check or something to see an enemy when there is an ally or 2 between you and the enemy?

What about darkvision, does a torch in the area totally negate it or does it work outside of the torch area?
How about moving through a friendly pc's space during combat, is there a check to do it or is it ok as long as you don't end movement in an occupied square?
Also what about soft cover or targeting enemies with allies in between you and the enemy? Is there a rule that either gives an advantage/disadvantage or something?
My DM has been running pretty loose on the rules and I want to iron some of this out so I can play the game by the rules instead of by some loose houserules if at all possible.

If there's an enemy between you and your target, they probably have half cover, giving them +2 to AC and Dexterity saves against your attacks, Perception is not impacted particularly. EXCEPT: Lightfoot halflings have a racial feature called "Naturally Stealthy" which enables them to hide when obscured only by a creature one size larger than they are. (In other words, halfling rogues can hide behind an ally and pop out to do sneak attack.)

Darkvision allows you to see in complete darkness as if it were dim light. If there is a torch, you aren't in complete darkness. Outside of the torch's area, you are in complete darkness, and darkvision applies.

Moving through a friendly creature counts as double movement (like difficult terrain), and you can't willingly end your movement in their space. Otherwise it's perfectly kosher.

Hope this helps!

-The Gneech

It's clear that Paizo just loves people to be gaming,regardless of system. I'm sure they'd be thrilled if everyone played Pathfinder but if people are going to have fun with other systems,as I'm sure their emplyees and executives do, why not make some money off it too?

Ack, I was trying to flag the fake ID spam, and I flagged your post by mistake. Sorry about that! Trying to figure out how to un-flag it.

-The Gneech

John Robey wrote:

5E is not as tightly balanced as 3.x/PF. That said, be merciful if the PCs are in over their heads and want to run for it. ;)

This, however, I don't agree with. I don't know too many people that say that 3.x or PF is balanced at anything, beyond the first couple of levels. Especially when compared to 5E.

That'd open up a big ol' can of worms to get into; I suspect it may be a different idea of what constitutes "balanced." :) I always found building encounters via the XP budget to work very closely to the way intended, but that also meant that there was a pretty narrow band in which the PCs could operate.

5E seems like it would support a much wider range of encounters, thanks to bounded accuracy. (I say "seems like" because I've only been able to run three sessions so far.) That's what I meant by 5E having "looser" balance.

-TG

TheRavyn wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

D&D 5E really needs a "delay" action.

.

Looks like this is now covered by "Ready" (Basic Rules pdf p72)

Dunno. It seems like that replaces the "ready" action in Pathfinder (or 3.5, etc.), but there doesn't seem to be a "hold all of my actions and decide to jump in later" option.

That was deliberately left out for various reasons, including people gaming the system with powers that "last until your next turn" and delaying their turn forever to keep the power going indefinitely, interaction with "movement" being a free part of your turn, and so forth.

That said, I imagine if a player wanted to permanently lower their initiative, I'd allow a ready action to do that. I'd just still require a state that would cause them to take that action.

-The Gneech

TheRavyn wrote:

I'm running Rise of the Runelords this weekend with 5e. Conversion is a snap.

Any tips, re: converting from Pathfinder > 5.e? I've been waiting impatiently for the Dungeon Masters Guide, but if I can set to work on converting all my PF content sooner than December, I would be a happy fellow indeed.

Eyeball it and go. :) 5E is not as tightly balanced as 3.x/PF. That said, be merciful if the PCs are in over their heads and want to run for it. ;)

Beyond that would require more specific questions. Generally speaking, reduce the number of magic items, reduce AC, increase hit points, and when in doubt simplify, simplify, simplify. One or two heavy-hitting powers for a critter are much better than six powers that don't do that much.

A very important piece of the Monster Manual that many people miss is the NPC appendix. These are actually templates designed to be skinned to fit. Need a kobold shaman? Take the Acolyte, make him small, and give him Sunlight Sensitivity and Pack Tactics. That kind of thing.

-The Gneech

You could allow training in shield use, a la training in a tool proficiency (in the downtime rules).

-TG

I certainly don't hate Pathfinder, but I am seriously burned out on it.

-TG

There are several things I think 5E does better. (Note that I'm only speaking in terms of it as a rule system here, there are plenty of things I think "Pathfinder" as a company/community construct/franchise does way better than the current D&D equivalent.)

Bounded accuracy is a big one: by effectively turning D&D into E6, you increase the range of levels at which any given critter or encounter is "useful," and really broaden the scope of the setting. This in turn makes the famous "Gygaxian naturalism" something that is feasible in campaign/setting design again– which is an important component in "sandbox" play style.

Obviously, not everyone is a devotee of sandbox style, but that's the thing is that 3.x/PF really only supported storyline-based play, while 5E supports both.

Throwing out the pages of modifiers is another huge one. I cannot begin to adequately express how much simpler life is (and how much FASTER combat resolution is) with advantage/disadvantage instead of "+1 from this buff, +2 from that buff, +2 from flanking, -1 from this debuff, -1 from that debuff, -2 from this unfavorable circumstance... for a total of +1. What were you rolling on, again?"

This same streamlining has been applied to character creation: instead of nerfing everything to heck and then requiring you to spend feats to regain capacity, 5E just gives everyone (including NPCs/monsters) capacity and then makes class features and feats extra-strong.

Finesse weapons are a great example of this: they allow you to use your Dex modifier for both the attack roll and damage modifier, and anybody who uses the weapon can do it. Two-weapon fighting, same deal... anyone who wants to can wield a light-weapon in their off-hand and attack with it as a bonus action, no penalties. The Dual-Wielder feat allows you to use larger weapons, gives a +1 AC when dual-wielding, and effectively gives you the ability to quick-draw multiple weapons. Thus, if you really want to play a double-broadsword-wielding Whirling Cuisinart of Death, you can, but if you just want your rogue to scoop up an extra dagger in the middle of a fight, it's still worth doing.

What it really boils down to, at least for me, is a game that's fast-playing and simple enough that I don't need something like Hero Labs, but is still robust enough to create a wide variety of distinctive characters and allows meaningful choices during the creation process.

-The Gneech

My thoughts on the MM are posted here, for those interested: Monsters! RAR!. Short version: I like it. ;)

-The Gneech

Or maybe just call it the Dungeons and Dragons section, as opposed to the Pathfinder section?

-The Gneech

I clearly didn't explain myself very well. You "don't overthink it" guys are missing the point of this thread. I just grabbed a rule as an example - I don't really care what anyone thinks about that specific feat, it works for thrown weapons at my table and that's that.

I'm curious about how people are approaching reading 5E - as you might read an OSRIC-all-rules-are-guidelines rule book or as you would read a PF/4E-all-terms-are-defined/codified game.

The question is specifically about different play styles, so there can't be a right answer.

Well, my answer still stands. 5E is written with the assumption of a general sensibility, which is referenced again and again in the way different types of armor buffs don't stack, you just pick the best one, or advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out, or you can play with or without a tactical map. When in doubt about a decision, choose the simpler, less granular answer.

Hence, the "don't overthink it" answers. That is how you approach it. :)

-The Gneech

When does this board get renamed to "D&D 5th Edition (and Beyond)"?

-The Gneech

It applies as long as the weapon is being used as a ranged weapon at the time. Too much "overthink" going on.

This precisely. 5E is not designed for hair-splitting, and the distinction between "ranged weapon" and "ranged attack" is reading too much into it.

-The Gneech

Again, it's about context. If the players slaughter everything in the Lich King's Fortress, there are no more wandering monsters, 'cos everything's defeated. If they kill the Lich King but leave his orc army out there, they really should be fleeing for their lives, not camping.

Certainly the players need useful intel in order to make informed decisions. In theory at least, that's what the rogue/scout is for, or at the very least, somebody posted on watch while the rest of the party rests. :) But this is not a survival skill that's been instilled in players in recent editions (which have tended to emphasize a storyline and plot-via-encounter), and it may not be something the group feels like dealing with. ("Why is Bingo McStabfoot the one getting all the DM time? I wanna go kill something.")

There isn't a "right" or "wrong" approach to it, just a way that works for your group or doesn't. 3.X/PF tends to emphasize fewer encounters with higher difficulty and the advancement of a story; 5E seems to be influenced by OSR/sandbox style and is more friendly to an "open world" approach; when choosing which system to use, the GM should use the right tool for the job they want the system to do. :)

-The Gneech