Sorry for thread resurrection, but thanks for these ideas Damir. I have a PC who is playing a Trox in my Iron Gods game and was looking for ideas on their culture.
As far as reproduction, I am using the term "clutchmother" as a station of reverence to a trox female that guards eggs.
For society, I enjoy the idea of a form of storytelling to be a puppet-esque show, with their larger arms holding stage setting or changing it, while their smaller arms manipulate shadow puppets made from painted and dyed animal hides.
I'm not sure if anyone else has had this problem, but after upgrading to Windows 10, I can no longer toggle the grid and map tags off in Adobe Reader or the "Edge" program it uses.
I can't click the buttons I once could. My mouse cursor turns into the text selector from the pointer when I mouse over the buttons.
Anything I'm missing? Better free program out there?
I'm highly interested, I love vows in roleplay, I've seen them played very well in palidins, and decently in monks (however the player was rather potentious so I don't consider it a fair evaluation.)
Do you have a chart or specific alternate features drawn up or are you still brainstorming?
Specific alternate features, as in if they took other Vows than the ones mentioned?
I've always been a big fan of the non supernatural monk and vow roleplay. I decided to make an archetype that embraced it (albeit it in a very specific fashion) called the samnyasin.
The samnyasin is obviously based on it's real world counterpart and borrows some elements from preexisting kit classes. They follow the god Mnemosyne in my homebrew world, but would fit Irori very easily.
The idea is to make an archetype that allows for the flavor of the selfless monk who sacrifices everything, but doesn't make you a *complete* hindrance to the party.
I'd love some feedback, or even a playtest if possible. There seems to be a lot of folks here good at mechanics breakdowns and number crunching and I'm always appreciative.
Samnyasin:
“I have found Her, and desire Her as the only world. I will wander, leaving my home, my duties, and my desire.” The first sacred oath of the Samnyasin
The samnyasin renounce the world completely, with no preoccupation for tomorrow, who do not worry about what they will eat or wear. It is necessary for them to be like a man who can climb the tallest of towers and then can abandon himself to a fall, without worrying about his limbs nor his life. Samnyasin is he whose only aspiration is to attain to a state of peace and perfect knowledge of the self, beyond birth and death. He gives up activities that are based on material desire and the results of all activities, dedicating himself fully to the service of Mnemosyne. His renunciation makes him a martyr to commitment, he who sacrifices himself.
Code of Conduct: The samnyasin follow the sacred Samaya Scripture, and loses all class features except proficiencies, Flurry of Blows, and AC Bonus if she ever willingly commits an act against his teachings. The Samaya Scripture functions as though the monk took the Vow of Poverty, Chastity, Fasting, and Silence. This replaces the Still Mind class feature.
Samaya Scripture
Abandon love, but never kindness and compassion for sentient beings
Abandon speech, but never introspection and study
Abandon pleasure, but not happiness and beatitude
Abandon the world, it is the only way to realize reality
Ki Pool (Su): A samnyasin gains this ability at first level instead of fourth. The number of points in a samnyasin's ki pool is equal to twice his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he receives a +1 insight bonus to all rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 levels of samnyasin (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).
As an immediate action, a sanyasin may spend 1 point from his ki pool to double this insight bonus on one type of roll (e.g. attack, saving throws, damage, skill check, combat maneuver, etc.). This lasts for one round.
Class Skills: The samyasin adds Bluff, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), and Survival to his list of class skills.
Wanderer’s Path (Ex): At 4th level, a samyasin leaves no trail and cannot be tracked, though he can leave a trail if desired. By spending 1 point from his ki pool, he can ignore difficult terrain as though as he had woodland stride. This ability replaces slow fall.
Deny Death (Ex): At 5th level, the samyasin's conviction can keep him at the brink of death without crossing over. He gains Deny Death as a bonus feat (Ultimate Magic pg. 148). This replaces High Jump.
Staunch Ki (Ex): At 7th level, the samyasin can use mental and physical resiliency to avoid certain attacks. If she makes a Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, the samyasin may spend 1 ki point to avoid the effect entirely. This ability replaces wholeness of body.
Disappear Unnoticed (Ex): At 12th level, the samyasin may use Stealth to hide even while being directly observed or when no cover or concealment is available, as long as he is adjacent to at least one creature of his size or larger, by spending 1 point from his ki pool. This effect lasts until the beginning of the wanderer’s next turn and may be continued in consecutive rounds by spending 1 ki point each round. This ability replaces abundant step.
Manasa-vrat (Ex): At 15th level, the samyasin's vow of chasity has taught him to master his emotions. He is immune to fear, charm, and compulsion effects. This replaces Quivering Palm.
Vachika-vrat (Ex): At 17th level, a samyasin's vow of silence has allowed him to better speak to the inner power within him. A samyasin gains a +4 insight bonus to AC and CMD. This ability replaces Tongue of Sun and Moon.
Kayika-vrat (Ex): At 19th level, a samyasin has truly transcended the world of the material. The samyasin may spend 3 points from his ki pool to gain the benefit of the Greater Penetrating Strike for all of his attacks made in that round. This replaces Empty Body.
Payovrata (Ex): At 20th level, a samyasin undertakes a ritual in attempts to show the goddess Mnemosyne the extent of his devotion. Over a period of 30 days, the samyasin fasts, forsaking all food and drinking water once every 6 days, communing with his goddess internally. Should the samyasin survive the ritual, he no longer suffers age penalties. In addition, he gains a +2 bonus to Strength, Constitution, and Wisdom. This ability replaces perfect self.
My players still bust out Aurora's guide because of the sections for specific costs on clothing material, specific types of clothing, costs for various alcohol brands in sizes ranging from tun to bottle, utility based clothing (e.g. dwarven steel toed boots that deal 1d4 bludgeoning, orc spikers that can be attached to the back of boots for Ride bonuses or to the front for attacks, drow swimsuits for, well swimming) and items (i.e. holy water sprinkler that allows you to use a holy water flask as a mace attack).
I'd suggest item sections that are meant to flesh out your character, if not for RP reasons, but to set him apart from "another fighter with the adventurer's outfit." There is that decent wiki article on Pathfinder alcohols as well, so let's get some prices.
Edit: If you do a section on alcohol, it would be cool to have it done by the brewing company and region. Example "Two Knight Brewery Ale & Mead selection from Sandpoint: -insert brand of alcohol and prices-" as well as a section on rare brands like a bottle of Whiterose Chardonnay (from Kingmaker)
Hello everyone. I was wanting some constructive feedback on an archetype I was working on. Thanks for your time. Any questions, please be sure to let me know.
EPICUREAN:
"Death is nothing to the epicurean, for that which lacks sensation is nothing to them.” - Unknown
A connoisseur of the arts of life, the epicurean believes that tranquility and comfort is the pinnacle of human happiness, seeking the refinement of pleasures that can be experienced by the senses. Some epicureans believe that this is achieved by a simple life, with moderation in all things sensual. Others are more debaucherous, willing to “try anything once” and seeking to make everything as pleasurable and opulent as possible. While the epicurean doesn't totally reject mysticism, both sides tend to agree that nothing is better than earthly experiences and care very little for the entailments of an afterlife.
Cognatogen: At 1st level, an epicurean learns how to create a cognatogen, as per the cognatogen discovery. This ability replaces the mutagen class ability (an epicurean cannot create mutagens unless he selects mutagen* as a discovery).
Bomb: A epicurean’s bombs deal damage one die step lower than normal (regular bombs deal d4s, concussive bombs deal 1d3s, and so on). This ability otherwise functions as and replaces the standard alchemist bomb class feature.
Craft Edibles (Su): At 1st level, the epicurean learns how to create food that can bestow magical benefits on those that consume it. The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster. Edibles are always fully charged (10 charges) when created and cannot contain higher than 3rd level spells. If desired, a spell can be placed into the edible at less than the normal cost, but then consuming that particular spell drains additional charges from the edible. Divide the cost of the spell by the number of charges it consumes to determine its final price. The creator must have prepared the spells/formulas to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating an edible can be reused.) The act of cooking the edible triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff ’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) Creating certain forms of edibles may entail other prerequisites beyond spellcasting. Crafting an edible requires 1 day for each 1,000 gp of the base price. Consuming an edible is the same action as drinking a potion. This replaces Brew Potion.
Note: You must calculate your caster level as though you were an alchemist (i.e 2nd level spells require a minimum of 4th level caster, 3rd level requires a minimum of 7th level) when crafting edibles.
Brew Stimulant (Sp): At 2nd level, the epicurean can imbue a normal beverage, transforming it so that when drank, it has the same effect as a blessing of fervor spell. Brewing the drink takes 10 minutes in total, making enough for one medium sized creature. The beverage is potent for 24 hours. Once a character has received the benefits of the epicurean's stimulant, he cannot do so again for 24 hours. The drink tastes normal, but magic detects it as mild transmutation. This replaces poison resistance +2, +4 and +6.
Soul Food (Su): The epicurean can create fabulous spells by cooking one meal or serving of a favorite food of the epicurean’s choice, typically a dough suitable for cookies, pastries, or other desserts. Cooking the meal takes 1 hour. Eating the food provides one of the following benefits for 1 hour: age resistance, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, greater false life, neutralize poison (instantaneous) owl’s wisdom, remove disease (instantaneous). Alternatively, the epicurean can shape the dough into a Small, humanlike creature, animating it as a homunculus for 1 hour. This replaces poison immunity.
Ambrosia (Sp): At 14th level, a epicurean can convert a normal beverage into a nectar-like beverage once per day that functions as per heroes' feast (this version of heroes' feast does not require a divine focus). It takes 10 minutes to create this elixir. He can create enough ambrosia for one creature per level. Once a creature has received the benefits of the epicurean's ambrosia, he cannot do so again for 24 hours. This does not stack with the bonuses granted by heroes' feast or heroic invocation. This replaces the discovery normally gained at this level.
Regalement (Sp): At 18th level, the epicurean's ambrosia ability becomes more powerful. Those that imbibe the ambrosia are cured of all poisons, diseases, temporary negative levels and ability damage. In addition, they also receive a +4 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls and saving throws against poison effects, gain 2d8+4 temporary hit points, and become immune to both fear and charm effects. This does not stack with the bonuses granted by heroes' feast or heroic invocation. This replaces instant alchemy.
Example Craft Edibles:
Some examples could be a pie of cure light wounds with 10 slices to show the 10 charges. Nothing says it has to be that big however. It could be an apple of cure light wounds that by taking a single bite out of it consumes one charge. Edibles could also be drinks, candy and pretty much anything you can think of. You could even have tobacco chew, drugs, or alcohol infused as a Craft Edible, but I'd suggest that GMs rule that the positive effects of the spell supersede the effects of the drug...except maybe the negative effects >:).
I never roll in front of my players. If they can't trust me as a GM, my game isn't for them. I often roll tons of dice behind my screen as a way to freak out players.
On the other hand, I have a player with massive OCD who rolls all of his attacks while waiting his turn. I've watched him and asked other players to do so as well in the past and after nearly two years of him being at my table every weekend and not fudging once, I'm finally OK with it.
Hey all, looking for more players for my Friday Carrion Crown game and perhaps one more for my Sunday Kingmaker game.
I'm a cinematic DM with 12 years experience. Looking for story-centric players who don't mind a homebrew world-in-progress to go along with Pathfinder's APs.
- No Rules Lawyers
- No Munchkins
- ...and especially no halflings or kender.
I was just pointing out how nothing can be crafted by a player (or anyone else for that matter) without a check of some sort and a penalty for failing that check.
Nothing. Not mundane items, not magic items, not buildings, nothing.
Is there any Pathfinder Battles game in the works?
Yes! It's called the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!
We do not currently have any concrete plans regarding a separate miniatures game. Is that something you'd like to see?
No. Personally I hate it when figures become ultra expensive because they are useful in some minis game I could care less about. Like with the other figure set for fantasy, I wanted a blackguard figure. Too bad it's nearly $20 just for it because it has some good ability in the minis game. Or a Boba Fett figure costing $100 because of some ability as well.
Please, please just stick with figures for the sake of representing game pieces. The prices are already a little tough on the wallet. add in supply and demand for another game and you'll cut out a significant paying base IMHO.
There is a difference between the player wouldn't do it, so the character won't, and NO ONE would do it so the character wont. If in the player's opinion the character would have turned back then so be it. That is called PC agency. Without it the game becomes pointless. What you should have checked on is if your player was up for this kind of game because it seems to me he wasn't.
The same thing happened in a horror themed game when I was playing a conjuration wizard. We were subjected to all sorts of terrifying things, nearly killed dozens of times and spend much of it running for our lives. After about 5 or 6 levels we fought our way back to the entrance which was blocked by a cave in. I then teleported the group out of the cavern and we left. Our characters were terrified, so they ran away. That isnt using real life reasoning in game, that is reasoning from the perspective of the characters who are being subjected to these horrors. If you are terrified, and you have a way to get away from the source of your terror, most people will run. That just makes sense.
I've never heard it called "PC agency," just "PC agenda." But yes, you are completely right. A player should be able to do what his character would do. But a PC who has his character do what he would do, across all of his characters, is kinda missing part of the fun of the game IMHO.
As far as your situation and teleporting everyone out, I would have done the same thing.
OK, so that's a lot of criticism. It is meant to be constructive, honestly it sounds like you cooked up some fun. It can be rather disappointing when a player cannot motivate their self to continue, but you have hit a wall that all GMs and game designers have all hit.
The criticism was appreciated. The PC had killed a couple of guards to make it to where he was, so he knew if he went back, he'd certainly be executed. Knowing that, he went back and was just that, executed (after being interrogated by the mage warden). His character had the goal of escaping to join up with Armag and his warband (part of KM storyline) but decided it wasn't worth the trouble of what he saw, even though he had murdered some guards already and sealed his fate.
I hate it when DMs force a PC to do something, but I did prod him in the direction I wanted him to go. I hit him a foul black bile that halved his movement as he was going backwards. The doors slammed shut from where they came, but he broke them down. And when he got to the top of the stair case and found the entrance had been bricked over because the site was under construction na dn they guards did in fact have brick and mortar in the very room they found the secret staircase to, he spent the time hammering away at the wall with a maul he stole from the construction site earlier. He just wanted out and short of completely removing gamer choice, he was going to get out.
feytharn wrote:
A Situation where something is at stake...Exploring the temple of Kill'em all just because it is there won't provide a compelling game to many players.
Truth, that's why a group I was in abandoned The Night Below adventure from AD&D. No investment. I was attempting to provide a compelling reason to explore (the possibility of freedom) but I guess I did a bad job at it. However, his main character is in fact the warden of the prison, so maybe I'll have some nasty rumors go on about him that the horrors he has under his caster's tower is so great that it drove an insane man sane and a BARBARIAN would rather would face execution in a DOCILE fashion than see it again. The people already don't like the wizard, this will just be fuel.
feytharn wrote:
Some DMs hate it when their players metagame and play their character's fearlessly. Some DMs hate it when their players act like their characters and don't play their character's fearlessly.
I have never hated it when someone "plays their character" but I have always hated when their character is the same every single time. Your 13 INT CE barbarian should not be as analytical as your 24 INT N wizard. I've never actually had a character played fearlessly. I mean, I scared off a barbarian with a zombie swarm of pigeons.
feytharn wrote:
Don't make characters that don't want to be Pathfinders. End of story.
Or in my case, don't make one shot PCs that won't try to seek the natural conclusion of a one shot game. Either way, I totally agree.
This was in regards to Mok's post in the "Antagonize Fixed?" thread here. It is comment #220.
Mok wrote:
...The freedom of RPGs to "not be like those stupid characters in that horror movie" and endlessly act in highly systematic and rational manners means that dramatic moments flatten out. A good example is the classic "Why didn't the Fellowship just have the eagles drop the ring in Mt. Doom?" I know I'm guilty of it myself. There is this dream of being able to go into a fantasy world and "do everything right" where everything is logically broken down and systematically spammed with rational tactics. The premise and tone of the fantasy world strains and might even fall apart under this approach. I think that a big part of it is that players traditionally have this abstract control over their character that lends more to this approach, and moves away from being able to emulate dramatic characterizations and events in stories.
I was running a one shot game this weekend as half of my gaming group was out of town. We're doing KM currently and decided to have some Call of Cthulhu fun on Candlemere Island since a PC built a prison out there (See Rivers Run Red's entry on the Candlemere Tower).
The two PC's (who were playing evil prisoners) broke out and found the former abbey of the monks who degenerated to worshiping the Old Ones underneath the prison. I had described some strange happenings ala The Whisperer in Darkness and The Fungi From Yuggoth and had two encounters, one with a zombie pigeon swarm and a howler.
One of my PCs, who is a very analytical Navy guy, decided after those two not-so-incredibly-dangerous-but-scary encounters that "no sane person would keep exploring or continue to try and escape" and marched his ass back to the prison overhead and turned himself in, much to the unhappiness of the other PC who wanted to keep going.
Navy guy was playing a CE cannibal barbarian that had ended up in solitary confinement after sucking someone's eye till it popped in a yard brawl. Mind you, CE isn't Chaotic Stupid but....man this is hard to word.
He was a party sh*tter. Plain and simple. It was a one shot game that ended on a note of disappointment because he used his own RL reasoning of "I wouldn't keep going, so my character won't" and had his murderous cannibal barbarian immediately decide that his life wasn't worth the possibility of saving. If I had driven him insane with the Mythos to believe that, it would be A-OK. I just have issues with a player who all of his characters think and respond the same way.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to discuss this with a player in a civil manner other than simply calling him a party sh*tter? Anyone have any similar stories?
I'm not reproducing with 1.3.0 or the new version I'm working on (although it did help me catch a crash for the new version). Can I get a copy of the all the files from C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Combat Manager sent to combatman@kyleolson.com?
I think I need to add a new error handling method to the application so I can get some better crash information. I'll work on that for the next version.
I have a player who wants to play a cave druid. He's sad about not getting burn as a magma ooze, but I can't see if there is anywhere stating he does or does not receive the DR of his new form.
I may have just unlocked a real-life achievement for reading this entire thread. OK, so I finally now what a "city district" is (36 blocks of buildings, or the nine squares on the city sheet), so that will help with curtailing the PC BP extravaganza they have been having.
We're getting more detailed with our city stats, so I thought I'd leave this link for settlements in further detail here for those GMs that had missed it and were interested in such things.
Also, on the subject of taxes, my PCs declared no taxes during the month of their ruler's child being born, so I didn't allow them to generate income that month. (If you have no taxes, you do not generate tax revenue). They were fine with it. For one month.
Kyle, this is pretty much amazing. Saves me a ton of time, especially in Kingmaker when I need to roll random items.
I may have found a bug. The program crashes on me when I do the following precise steps:
1) Created a custom monster for a player's familiar. This custom monster was an edited version of one in the data base (snapping turtle)
2) Add custom monster to the combat, then right click it to move it to the party.
3) Right click the custom monster to link it's initiative to the player it belongs to.
4) Crash
That being said, I can save the party with the familiar BEFORE linking, load with the custom monster in the PC party, then link it with no issue.
Hey all, I was looking for input on my prestige class. I created it using the Red Mantis as a sort of template on power levels. It has a dash of Nazgul and Dr. Who's Headless Monks as far as aesthetics go. Moving on, here it is.
Prestige Class:
TEN SWORDS TEMPLAR
Hit Die: d10.
Requirements
To qualify to become a Ten Swords templar, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil
Skills: Intimidate 5 ranks, Craft (Weapons) 5 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks.
Feats: Craft Magical Arms and Armor, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus (any sword), Quick Draw
Class Skills The Ten Swords templar’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), and Survival (Wis).
Skill Ranks at Each Level: 4+ Int modifier.
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +1 +0 +1 Blade Bond, Black Mount
2nd +2 +1 +1 +1 Sneak Attack +1d6
3rd +3 +2 +1 +2 Reforge, Black Mount (Woodland stride)
4th +4 +2 +1 +2 Sword Scrying
5th +5 +3 +2 +3 Improved Blade Bond, Black Mount (Fly)
6th +6 +3 +2 +3 Sneak Attack +2d6
7th +7 +4 +2 +4 Black Mount (Ghost touch and wounding)
8th +8 +4 +3 +4 Penetrating Strike
9th +9 +5 +3 +5 Sword Storm, Black Mount (Etherealness)
10th +10 +5 +3 +5 Sneak Attack +3d6, Greater Blade Bond
Blade Bond (Sp): The Ten Swords templar can infuse his personally crafted weapon with sacred or profane power, similarly to a paladin's divine bond ability. As a standard action, the Ten Swords templar calls upon the aid of a spirit for 1 minute per Ten Swords templar level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 1st level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +4 at 10th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, dancing, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, ghost touch, holy, keen, merciful, speed, unholy and vicious. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost (see PCR Table 15–9). The spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the Ten Swords templar but keeps them in the case of dancing and resumes giving bonuses if returned to the Ten Swords templar. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A Ten Swords templar can use this ability once per day at 1st level, and one additional time per day for every two levels in Ten Swords templar, to a total of 5 times per day at 10th level.
Black Mount (Sp): As a full round action, the Ten Swords templar can conjure a Large, corporeal horselike creature that bears you or a person you designate into combat or overland at great speed. A black mount has a black body and head with sharp, silvery eyes, no mouth, and smoke-colored, insubstantial hooves that make no sound. It has no saddle, bridle, or bit, but it is exceptionally alert to the nudges and balance changes of its rider. A black mount cannot wear armor or magic items and cannot have spells made permanent upon it. The black mount is not capable of speech, has no skills or feats, but can project it's feelings similar to the empathy ability of an intelligent weapon.
The black mount is considered to have the following stats:
Str 26, Dex 20, Con 25, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 14 and CMB +11.
For defense, the black mount has a CMD 26 (30 vs trip), AC 19 (–1 size, +5 natural armor, +5 Dex) and 40 hit points +8 hit points per level in Ten Swords templar. It attacks with its hooves at a +9 bonus, dealing 1d6+8 points of damage. It has undead immunities despite not being an undead creature.
A black mount has a speed of 20 feet per level in Ten Swords templar, to a maximum of 200 feet. It can bear its rider’s weight plus up to 10 pounds per level in other gear. Black mounts gain certain powers according to the Ten Swords templar's level. A black mount’s abilities include those associated with any lower levels.
3rd level: The black mount ignores terrain elements such as undergrowth, rubble, or mud that would slow its movement as per woodland stride.
5th level: The black mount can fly at its speed (average maneuverability). The black mount gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC.
7th level: The black mount's hooves have the ghost touch and wounding weapon special abilities. The black mount's deflection bonus to AC increases to +6.
9th level: The black mount can use etherealness on behalf of its rider once per day (as the spell, caster level 9th). The black mount's deflection bonus to AC increases to +8.
The black mount remains until you dismiss it or when it dies. In the case of the black mount dying, a Ten Swords templar can reform the black mount by performing a ritual requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of meditation, requiring a focus of four silver horseshoes worth 1000gp or by gaining another level in this class. A Ten Swords templar that was formerly a paladin cannot summon in a divine bonded mount and black mount at the same time. A Ten Swords templar can use this ability once per day at 1st level, and one additional time per day for every two levels in Ten Swords templar, to a total of 5 times per day at 10th level.
Reforge (Su): At third level, a Ten Swords templar can use maximized make whole as a spell like ability (caster level equal to levels in Ten Swords templar) a number of times per day equal to his/her Constitution bonus (minimum once per day) as a move-equivalent action. This ability can only be used on items crafted by the Ten Swords templar.
Sword Scrying (Sp): Once per day at 4th level, a Ten Swords templar can cast scry, using his/her blade as the focus for the spell (caster level equal to templar level) on an individual he has wounded or touched with his blade in the past year. Otherwise, the spell is the same.
Improved Blade Bond (Sp): While wielding his/her bonded weapon, the Ten Swords templar gains DR 5/good or evil, depending on their alignment. A neutral templar decides which DR to receive and can never change it after making the choice.
Penetrating Strike (Ex): At 8th level, a Ten Swords templar gains Penetrating Strike as a bonus feat. You may only use Penetrating Strike with a weapon you have crafted if it was gained in this way. If he/she already has Penetrating Strike, the Ten Swords templar may choose another fighter feat instead.
Sword Storm (Su): At 9th level, a Ten Swords templar may use still blade barrier as a spell-like ability three times per day. This version of the spell can deal subdual damage instead of lethal at the caster's discretion, but the effects are otherwise the same as the spell.
Greater Blade Bond (Sp): While wielding his/her bonded weapon, she inflicts 1 negative level with a successful attack. No matter the amount of attacks he/she has, no more than two negative levels can be inflicted this way per round. Each negative level inflicted in this manner grants the Ten Swords templar 5 temporary hit points that last for 1 hour. The save DC to remove these negative levels is equal to 20 + the Ten Sword templar's Constitution modifier. In addition, the Ten Swords templar's DR increases to DR 10/good or evil.
So far, the feedback I've heard is...
* the combination of abilities may be a little OP
* the Black Mount may need to be scrapped because of it not fitting with the theme in favor of more craft or sword-centric powers.
Examples could be:
Removing Black Mount, adding other abilities:
1st level: Improvised Blades (Ex): With one minute and a Craft check of 20, a Ten Swords templar can wield an improvised weapon as a type of blade depending on the size. With For tiny objects, treat it as a dagger. For small objects, treat it as a short sword. For medium objects, treat it as a longsword. For large objects, treat it as a bastard sword. The GM has the final say on what can qualify for this ability and can also substitute basic sword types for others under certain circumstances (i.e. it might make more sense for certain objects to be a rapier instead of a longsword).
A Ten Swords templar wields these weapons as though as he had the Catch Off Guard feat. Feats that effect these types of weapons normally apply to an improvised blade (E.g. if you have Weapon Focus [Longsword], it would apply to your improvised longsword). An improvised blade does not count as a personally crafted weapon for the purposes of Blade Bond and cannot be used with Sword Scry.
3rd level: Forge Ring (Ex): A Ten Swords templar gains Forge Ring as a bonus feat, even if he would not be able to normally do so. For example: a fighter who joined this prestige class that used Master Craftsman to gain Craft Magical Arms and Armor may now use Master Craftsman to craft rings as well. If a Ten Swords Templar already has this feat, he may choose another item creation feat instead.
5th level: Accelerated Crafting (Ex): A Ten Swords templar can create personalized weapons for himself at a much faster pace. When you make a craft check to represent a weeks worth of work, if the result × the DC equals the price of the item in gp (instead of sp), then you have completed the item. Also, the time to create an Improvised Blade is reduced to one full round action. Weapons made with the accelerated crafting function as broken, non-masterwork weapons in the hands of anyone but the Ten Swords templar and sell for as much.
7th level: Superior Composition: An improvised blade created by a Ten Swords templar is treated as a +2 keen sword and has hit points and hardness equal to a magical steel sword of its type.
9th: Extra Ring: A Ten Swords Templar gains an additional ring slot as though he was wearing a hand of the mage. this ring must be one that he has created himself. This extra ring slot does not stack with a hand of the mage.
I'd love to here what people think from a flavor and game balance standpoint! Do you like the Black Mount variant or more towards the additional swords and crafting? Thanks ahead of time for reading this!
I really like the idea, but some hardcore players/GM's would have to see a lot of deaths before they came around to loosening the stance on not accepting the "gifts".
I would have the clerics argue the following:
"Refusing the blessings of you church? Your true poverty is now apparent: you are bankrupt of humility. Do not let your personal quest become one of vanity. Your church and your god invest this magic into your soul, the only part of you that is not an earthly allowance. Long after your clothes are moth eaten, your staff rotted and your flesh consumed by the carrion, your soul will remain. Let all others see that it bears the mark of your faith rewarded."
There is a severe problem with "flavor" vs. power. And that is playability. I want to play Eli from Book of eli. But I couldn't do that. I have a severe physical disability, I'm dead session one. I've always wanted to play a blind character. I've wanted benefits (as flaws should always give benefits to create balance) but not things that replace sight. Maybe I want to have a keen sense of smell and hearing and be able to feel magic in the air. I can't do that. If I play a blind character, I'm dead...
It's funny you mention this exact scenario because an earlier poster had the same idea of a blind character and we came up with a small, but decent idea of a variant favored class bonus to help make it possible. You could do it with gunslinger for sure, plus the Blind-Fight tree in the APG definitely make it a possible character.
Blind Swordsman: Add +1 to the fighter’s miss chance percentile roll to one type of weapon [melee or missile] (maximum +20).
Edit: On a second look now, this may not be too overpowered in this form.
Blind Swordsman: Add +2 to the fighter’s miss chance percentile roll to one type of weapon [melee or missile] (maximum +20).
Second Edit: Maybe even...
Blind Swordsman: Add +3 to the fighter’s miss chance percentile roll to one type of weapon [melee or missile] (maximum +30).
Vistarius wrote:
This isn't your game, this is theirs. IF you don't like it, don't complain, houserule. If you're not the GM, talk it over with your GM. Most GMs will give you a second to state your case and if it doesn't impede balance, will house rule it in...
The problem is that the monk can never have enough gold for those things. There is nothing saying a party member can't buy them for him though. The monk is basically intended to give up his wealth which is my issue with the option...
I don't entirely disagree with this when it comes to the optimized, minimaxed option. I would not allow that monk into my game personally.
But for the other one (the far squishier AC 19 version), I look at it this way. In the course of the adventure you amass 240,000gp and give it all to the church (or whatever organization you work for) over the course of 15 levels, the church probably won't have a problem spending half of what you gave them on permanent spells for the VoP PC and other assorted items the party needs. The fighter gets cursed? Need a commune spell? Want a wand of cure serious wounds? Maybe the church could burn some incense of meditation before a know-it's-going-to-be-awful fight. The church has your back because even after paying for all that, they still made a king's ransom off of said VoP PC.
Obviously, GMs have to watch for abuse. That's why when I wrote up my normal VoP monk, I said "all 240,000gp goes to the church. The church spends half on the VoP monk and pockets 120,000gp." That's not a bad deal at all. Why would the church give the monk things like permanent see invisibility, darkvision, and arcane sight? Simple: takes money to make money and they are investing in their cash cow.
I see it going down like this.
Behind closed doors: "Let's give our brother monk the ability to see invisible enemies and in the dark so he isn't killed by craven tactics. Also, let's give him the ability to see the magical auras of anything his group finds so if he has a craven rogue amongst them, the rogue can't say something is worthless when it is clearly magical. This way, we can make sure our brother monk gets his cut and we stay in the black."
Public Face: "Thank you for you donations our most devout of followers, receive this blessing to aid you in your future endeavors." [cast whatever permanent spell here].
Your lvl 15 VoP monk proves others statements. 19 AC, only mediocre saves for high lvl, and 100hp? You'll get destroyed....Your damage output has potential however it also has issues. Your primary issue though is the survivability.
I don't know if you noticed, but the "one item" I gave this monk was simply a variant hat of disguise that gave a +5 to Stealth. The permanent spells on him, save greater magic fang +3 and the wish increases, are utility. I only used half of his character level's wealth for both his permanent spells and his one item. I also kept him with an 8 CHA instead of lowering it to a 7 (which will make a difference in just a moment).
Would I attempt to optimize and minimax his item, I don't think he would have such a survivability issue.
Example: Level 15 I have 240,000gp. Let's go ahead and use all of that gold for one item to combat those problems you mentioned (AC, saves, HP)
Minimaxed One Item:
Robe of the Beggar
+8 Deflection Bonus to AC = 96,000gp
(base 64,000gp as per bracers of armor +8 plus 50% for odd item slot)
+5 Natural Armor Bonus to AC = 112,500gp
(base 50,000gp as per amulet of natural armor +5, plus 50% for odd item slot [now 75,000gp] plus 50% for being a secondary ability)
+5 to Constitution = 56,250gp
(base 25,000 [Bonus squared x 1,000gp] plus 50% for odd item slot [now 37,500] plus 50% for secondary ability
+5 to all Saving Throws = 56,250gp
(base 25,000gp as per cloak of resistance +5 plus 50% for odd item slot [now 37,500gp] plus 50% for being a secondary ability)
Final Total= 224,700gp, leaving me with 15,300gp. Let's get a potion bag and 20 potions of cure serious wounds with the left overs.
Now, let's look at the Level 15 VoP monk with this item. I will change some of the utility abilities to ones more optimized.
Level 15 VoP optimized monk with minimaxed item:
Meja, The Bloodcove Beggar
Lawful Evil Human (Bekyar) Monk 15
Height: 6'11 Weight 220lbs
Hit Dice: 15d8+95 (170 hp; 13 from favored class, 15 from Toughness)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 80 ft. ( squares)
Armor Class: 31 (+2 Dex, +2 Wis, +3 Class, +1 Dodge, +8 Deflection, +5 Natural), touch 26, flat-footed 28
CMD: 31 [33 vs Grapple]
BA/CMB: +11/+6/+1; +20 [+24 Grapple]
Attack: Unarmed + 18 (2d6+5 plus 1d6 energy)
Full Attack: Flurry of Blows +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 (2d6+5 plus 1d6 energy)
Special Attacks: Power Attack [-1] (2d6+7), [-2] (2d6+9), [-3] (2d6+11), Stunning Fist 15/day (DC 19), Elemental Fist 15/day, Perfect Strike 15/day, Quivering Palm (DC 19), fists treated as silver
Special Qualities: Ki Pool (Magic, Lawful), Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, High Jump, Purity of Body, Slow Fall [70ft], Wholeness of Body (15 HP), Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +16, Will +16 (+18 vs Enchantment)
Abilities: (15 point) Str 20, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 7(with regards to Treantmonk)
Skills: Acrobatics +20 (15 ranks), Climb + 9 (1 ranks), Perception +20 (15 ranks), Sense Motive +20 (15 ranks), Stealth +20 (15 ranks), Swim +9 (1 rank) [29 ranks = 45 class + 15 human + 6 favored class]
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk 1st), Improved Grapple (Monk 1st), Stunning Fist (Monk 1st), Improved Initiative (1st level), Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike] (1st level), Dodge (Monk 2nd), Power Attack (3rd level), Cleave (5th level), Toughness (6th level), Improved Disarm (Monk 6th), Great Cleave (7th level), Greater Grapple (9th level), Improved Critical [Unarmed Strike] (Monk 10th), Eldritch Claws (APG; 11th level), Elemental Fist (APG; 13th level), Medusa's Wrath, (Monk 14th) Perfect Strike (APG; 15th)
As a NPC adversary: replace Eldritch Claws with Elemental Fist, Elemental Fist with Perfect Strike, and Perfect Strike with Ability Focus [Quivering Palm] (cohort is a 8th level rogue who spies for Meja, has 8 level one children work as couriers and eyes as well).
Changes: Took one point from CHA and added it to CON, reduced Profession, Climb and Swim ranks to add extra HP from favored class, replaced Spider Step feat with Toughness
I see I don't have a wide variety of monsters for CR 15. I guess bestiary 2 will do or I can use the baseline stats here.
I'm currently running game, so I'm posting this on a break and will see what you think later.
Level 15 VoP Monk:
Meja, The Bloodcove Beggar
Lawful Evil Human (Bekyar) Monk 15
Height: 6'11 Weight 220lbs
Hit Dice: 15d8+30 (100 hp; 3 from favored class)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 80 ft. ( squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis, +3 Class, +1 Dodge), touch 19, flat-footed 16
CMD: 32 [34 vs Grapple]
BA/CMB: +11/+6/+1; +21 [+25 Grapple]
Attack: Unarmed + 21 (2d6+9 plus 1d6 energy)
Full Attack: Flurry of Blows +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13 (2d6+9 plus 1d6 energy)
Special Attacks: Power Attack [-1] (2d6+11), [-2] (2d6+13), [-3] (2d6+15), Stunning Fist 15/day (DC 20), Elemental Fist 15/day, Perfect Strike 15/day, Quivering Palm (DC 20), fists treated as silver
Special Qualities: Ki Pool (Magic, Lawful), Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, High Jump, Purity of Body, Slow Fall [70ft], Wholeness of Body (15 HP), Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, permanent see invisibility, darkvision, arcane sight and greater magic fang +3
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +12 (+14 vs Enchantment)
Abilities: (15 point) Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8(with regards to Treantmonk)
Skills: Acrobatics+ 20 (15 ranks), Climb + 15 (7 ranks), Perception +20 (15 ranks), Profession (Panhandler) +8 (3 ranks), Sense Motive +20 (15 ranks),
Stealth +25 (15 ranks, +5 item), Swim +10 (2 rank) [29 ranks = 45 class + 15 human + 11 favored class]
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk 1st), Improved Grapple (Monk 1st), Stunning Fist (Monk 1st), Improved Initiative (1st level), Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike] (1st level), Dodge (Monk 2nd), Power Attack (3rd level), Cleave (5th level), Spider Step (APG; 6th level), Improved Disarm (Monk 6th), Great Cleave (7th level), Greater Grapple (9th level), Improved Critical [Unarmed Strike] (Monk 10th), Eldritch Claws (APG; 11th level), Elemental Fist (APG; 13th level), Medusa's Wrath, (Monk 14th) Perfect Strike (APG; 15th)
Background: Meja has moved up in the world, finding that the Aspis Consortium rewards its agents much better than his previous employer. In addition to permanent greater magic fang received at 7th level, he has accumulated permanent see invisibility, darkvision, arcane sight and received a +2 to STR and WIS by way of wish.
[These spells do not exceed half of the equivalent 15th level character wealth]
Equipment: robe of disguise (as per hat of disguise, plus +5 to Stealth), wooden begging bowl
As a NPC adversary: replace Eldritch Claws with Elemental Fist, Elemental Fist with Perfect Strike, and Perfect Strike with Ability Focus [Quivering Palm] (cohort is a 8th level rogue who spies for Meja, has 8 level one children work as couriers and eyes as well).
Tactics: Use Stealth and Abundant Step, Grapple, maintain w/ Greater Grapple, use FoB with Power Attack [-3] if possible. Disarm if needed, use Medusa's Wrath for two extra attacks at highest attack bonus against dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foes. With Perfect Strike, the monk can roll unarmed damage twice and choose the better result.
Believe me when I say that 64 gnolls more than likely doesn't mean diddly to a party of 13th level characters....I understand the concern. Magnuskn is right. If players and GMs are paying good money for mechanics, they they should be good mechanics...He mentioned in a post during the gunslinger playtest that it wasn't fair that his cleric didn't have spell options to melee like barbarians, fighter, and paladins...
Yeah, I was never, ever intending that 64 gnolls alone could do much to a party of 13th level characters. I had thrown in other creatures as well (then found out I had my CR math wrong). Conceded, moot point, moving on.
I don't feel that all mechanics offered have to be "good" mechanics because some people (like my gaming group and many others I used to game with) enjoy playing a challenging character. They have gotten away with doing this because the PC has had the necessary rapport with the gaming group required to trust the PC and agree to accept the possible burden without repaying said PC in secret unkindness.
With that being said, I feel the ratio of "good" to "challenging" mechanics should be massively in favor of "good."
And the final bit, what about the 5th level Righteous Magic spell? Anybody? No? *backs away slow*
Could either of you source your information about stacking creatures in encounters? I've been looking for this for sometime and haven't stumbled across it yet.
Seems I've been doing it wrong.
Step 3—Build the Encounter on page 398 states to determine a CR, first pick the level (this time, say 13) and look at it's "XP budget"(25,600xp). To build your encounter, simply add creatures, traps, and hazards whose combined XP does not exceed the total XP budget for your encounter.
Chart Table 12–3: CR Equivalencies on page 398 supports magnuskn's CR building. 2 Creatures is equal to CR +2, but it starts going up in multiples soon after, to where the chart maxes at 16 Creatures is equal to CR +8. That means 16 Gnolls should be a CR 9. Big, big difference.
Lemme add my XP up for my suggested encounter:
64 Gnolls = 25,600xp (wow, that was a COMPLETE COINCIDENCE)
16 Dire Hyenas = 12,800xp
6 Stone Giants = 28,800xp
Total XP budget = 67,200xp, which should be a...CR 15 encounter with 16,000xp in Ad Hoc adjustments for the monsters.
Um. Well.
I'm pretty confident a CR 15 party, non-optimized or otherwise, would not struggle too much with that encounter. Something seems highly wrong here. Am I doing it wrong again?
I may just house rule my CR building in because that seems non-threatening to me. Why do people even optimize with odds like that? This game truly is built for you to succeed.
Where did you get the money to pay for the permanency spell? Does the gold never touching your hands and allowing another party member to buy things for you stay within the spirit of the the rules for this one?
I don't see why it wouldn't. Earlier posts I've done have been to demonstrate that if you are on the VoP, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be rewarded in-game for your services.
From earlier:In return for the services and any income of the VoP participant, the church (aka the GM) provides the PC, and his party if necessary, with housing, mounts when needed, food and clothing, healing and any other service needed to maintain physical, emotional and spiritual health. The church can also "gift" a monk on the VoP with permanent spells cast on them. If you give a church 880,000 GP, they better have someone cast some Miracle spells and buff a stat or two IMO.
I think this stays within the spirit of VoP because 1) the cost of permanent Greater Magic Fang is 7,500gp and the robe of disguise is only roughly 2,000gp when you factor in the cost of making a formerly head slot item into a robe. The church has still received approx. 14,000 gp from your tithings (meaning, they've made their share from your adventuring and clergy work). Even if a permanent casting of Greater Magic Fang is considered your "one item" for the purposes of this test, I'll simply set my robe of disguise to the side. :^)
wraithstrike wrote:
Level 7 comparison
I feel pretty comfortable with that first test when I take into consideration potions and buffs. The Bebelith fight would be pretty horrible I agree. Boss fights are meant to be group efforts, so I can't really say what I would do without knowing the group, terrain, tactics, etc. It would be terrible, regardless, but probably survivable.
Edit: I would love if SKR or someone else would weigh in on my VoP interpretation on post #101 here.
Uh, btw., 6 Stone Giants alone are a CR 13 encounter. As are 64 Gnolls, as are 16 Dire Hyenas. So, no, adding those three encounters together would not be the same as one Glabrezu, let alone three. It would be easier, even with the higher CR...He was not saying all of them together. He is saying that each one is a CR 13 on its own, but they are not equal.
Sorry for the confusion, but that is NOT AT ALL what I meant. My line was: "It could also be 64 gnolls, 16 dire hyneas, and 6 stone giants." (as apposed to "or" 6 stone giants). I meant for them all to be one group. I thought my restatement of, "I did not say 64 gnolls. I said 64 gnolls, 16 dire hyneas, and 6 stone giants," would have clarified that.
Maybe I'm wrong on the math of the CR. Let me show how I came up with it.
I think I expressed pretty clearly my main problem with what SKR wrote. But apparently it didn't get through. I'll repeat that paragraph, because it was the most relevant one out of my last post...But I don't think it is wrong to point out that I got upset seeing a main developer clearly state that it is okay for Paizo to publish plainly badly balanced options...I expect Paizo to do better, so having a developer come onto the forums and actively deny that, yeah, that is a problem for me.
I also think you expressed pretty clearly your main problem with what SKR wrote because I feel these two bolded statements support my above claim of, "...you are upset with VoP because it isnot more akin (i.e. more powerful and balanced, notice how I didn't say "the same") to the BoED VoP and your frustration is vented at SKR and the design team..."
If you feel otherwise, we can agree to disagree and end the conversation. I apologize if I seemed rude. It was not my authorial intention and wish that I was able to convey my tone better through unspoken text.
magnuskn wrote:
And even the upgraded encounter you postulated is barely a speed-bump for a level thirteen party...
This is a moot discussion, in the sense it is a non-practical debate of little value because of various GM play styles and PC customization options. I'm sure it would be a speed bump for some. For others, not.
magnuskn wrote:
Sure, a sucky VoP Monk may get his druthers to bump off a number of mooks there, but put the party against two CR 11 monsters or maybe even (gasp!) something above their CR, and he will be mostly useless.
This is mostly a moot discussion as well. I have written up a non-optimized level seven monk to discuss and plan to write a fifteenth level one as well because we've reached a point in the actual thread topic where having a version of a non-optimized VoP monk to look at will help others contribute to the conversation.
Mind you, mine is only one version and I claim to be only passable at character creation, so I invite others to do so as well.
wraithstrike wrote:
Stock Monsters are the one that are in the bestiary before they are buffed or modified in any other way...I did not write that, but you said you were sleepy, and I have done the same thing before.
I understand now. I figured it was as much but wanted to make sure.
Also, oops. Thanks for your understanding in my misquote, I knew it was from magnuskn.
I think it fails as a PC or NPC adversary if you use the RAW version of VoP...
If you write up a monk at say level 7 since that is when a lot of classes start to come in their own and 15 when many DM's decide the game starts to get out of control I will compare it to some AP' and have it replace someone. We can compare it to stock monsters first though since those are easier to deal with than what is in most AP's.
Compare it to what stock monsters? Don't forget that a 7th level character isn't really meant to take on a CR 7 creature. That's for a party to do.
Anyway, here's my level 7 VoP monk. I did not try to optimize him and gave him various abilities and skill points outside of combat to make a well-rounded character. Also, his "one item" is simply a variant hat of disguise.
Level 7 VoP Monk:
Meja, The Bloodcove Beggar
Lawful Evil Human (Bekyar) Monk 7
Height: 6'11 Weight 220lbs
Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (45 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +2 Wis, +1 Class, +1 Dodge), touch 16, flat-footed 13
CMD: 24 [26 vs Grapple]
BA/CMB: +5/+11[+13 Grapple]
Attack: Unarmed + 13 (1d8+7)
Full Attack: Flurry of Blows +13/+13/+8 (1d8+7)
Special Attacks: Power Attack [-1] (1d8+9), [-2] (1d8+11), Stunning Fist (DC 15)
Special Qualities: Ki Pool (Magic), Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, High Jump, Purity of Body, Slow Fall [30ft], Wholeness of Body, Permanent Greater Magic Fang [+3]
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +7
Abilities: (15 point) Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8 (with regards to Treantmonk)
Skills: Acrobatics+ 12 (7 ranks), Climb + 14 (7 rank), Perception +12 (7 ranks), Profession (Panhandler) +6 (1 rank), Sense Motive +10 (5 ranks), Stealth +12 (7 ranks), Swim +8 (1 rank) [29 ranks = 21 class + 7 human + 7 favored class]
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk 1st), Improved Grapple (Monk 1st), Stunning Fist (Monk 1st), Improved Initiative (1st level), Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike] (1st level), Dodge (Monk 2nd), Power Attack (3rd level), Cleave (5th level), Spider Step (APG; 6th level), Improved Disarm (Monk 6th), Great Cleave (7th level)
Background: A former slave taker, now works as an informant for The Castellany of the Fever Sea, who has rewarded him with permanent Greater Magic Fang for services rendered. He won't discuss why he lives a life of poverty, but it serves him in his job well.
Equipment: robe of disguise (as per hat of disguise), wooden begging bowl
As a NPC adversary: replace Cleave with Improved Drag (gotta drag people into alleys), Great Cleave with Leadership (cohort is a 3rd level rogue who spies for Meja).
I will write up the 15th level one in later days, I have to sleep to run game tomorrow.
magnuskn wrote:
What he did was implicate that it is okay for Paizo to publish (i.e. get paid for) horrible rules. "Pathfinder lets you make suboptimal choices, or even poor choices, and it doesn't reward you for making those poor choices." Right. But VoP is a sub-optimal choice because he ( or whomever wrote the VoP, although it is pretty clear from his defense that it was him ) wrote it that way...apparently any idea which goes against that paradigm, like possibly a Vow of Poverty giving metaphysical powers to a character so that he can keep up with the rest of the party, is wrong. Forgive me if that upsets me a bit, coming from one of the main designers of the game.
Even with as polysemic words can be, I do not feel this assumption was implicated. What I sense instead is that you are upset with VoP because it is not more akin to the BoED VoP and your frustration is vented at SKR and the design team, partially because of SKR comment,"...rewarding poor choices is dumb."
The accusation towards SKR ("...pretty clear from his defense that it was him.."), the bold emphasis on "wrote it that way" (i.e it is their fault for not letting me have the VoP I want), and the bold emphasis on "wrong" (i.e. how dare one of the main designers says my ideal design for VoP is wrong) is what I am using to support my statement.
If this is the case and you are as upset as it seems, perhaps now is not the time to make concrete judgments until said feeling has passed.
To paraphrase someone much smarter than me, one of the most common, and great arrogant presumptions, is the demand to be loved. I'm sorry you didn't get any love from this version of VoP, but many others did. This doesn't mean you won't get your wish in future books and certainly doesn't mean you can't house rule it until it does come out. I'm sure not everyone at Paizo loves ninjas and samurais, but that's what sells, so they're making it. If it appears a metaphysical powered VoP will sell, trust me, they'll make it happen.
To close, the discussion of whether SKR was implying Paizo should be allowed to publish "horrible rules" is not the purpose of this thread. The actual VoP character option and roleplay vs contribution is. If you'd like to express your dissatisfaction with them, I am sure there is a forum for that. This however, is not the thread for it.
magnuskn wrote:
...saying that you can replace a Glabrezu with 64 Gnolls is a laughable comparison. The Gnolls wouldn't even be able to touch the PC's.
I did not say 64 gnolls. I said 64 gnolls, 16 dire hyneas, and 6 stone giants. I didn't even bring terrain, traps, upgraded gear (as they would certainly have it with the treasure value of the encounter) or tactics into the mix. Given gnolls use of ambush and swarm tactics, I hardly call it laughable.
And what PC's are we talking about? Optimized? Normal 15 point buy PCs without optimization in mind will probably have trouble with that encounter, I assure you. On the flip side, a minimaxed party of 13th level characters would steamroll a Glabrezu. You now have the same problem of needing to change the encounter on the opposite end of the spectrum.
And finally, as stated earlier, an equivalent encounter is not supposed to be utter life and death and should only consume roughly 20% of party resources.
To continue this discussion would also be another thread entirely and devolve into "what type of PC's do you play with?", "what are the classes involved?", etc. that doesn't serve the VoP and roleplay vs contribution discussion.
This would be quite helpful, though I don't know how well that would scale. Would you have to wait to level 17 to get the benefit? But that is, admittedly, a minor nitpick, as manuals of gainful exercise could more or less do the same thing (even if it's essentially the same spell being cast)
Well, let's look at pg. 399 of the CRB for wealth by level. Let's assume because of the church tithing policy, you only receive roughly half of what you'd normally receive per level as "gifts" from the church and the other half goes to the church. Note that I am not spending money on the "one item" you may have with VoP or buying scrolls/potions/wands for the party. I'll pick a few choice levels and see what you could receive.
Level 8: Receive permanent greater magic fang, see invisibility, and have a jar of restorative ointment waiting for you at the church, to be applied by a cleric if need be.
Level 12: Receive permanent arcane sight, tongues, darkvision, and receive a +1 to an ability score via wish
Level 16: Receive four permanent castings of telepathic bond with various party members, receive four points to distribute among your ability scores via wish (remember you can't have more than a +5 to a single attribute from wish), and the church will burn incense of meditation for the party once as a blessing.
Level 20: Receive fifteen points to distribute among your ability scores via wish, the church gives a Stone Golem Guardian Manual to the party caster to create and protect the party, and cast true resurrection once for the monk.
Obviously, the above ideas are just one example that leaves you with some character wealth to make a great item without "breaking" it and still have donated over 400,000 GP to the church by level 20. Reduce some of the church gifts and you can instead just have them give wands/potions/scrolls to the various members of the party that can use them. You could even put a permanent symbol on a shield for a party member or something. You get the idea.
Space Titanium wrote:
I think we're on the same page here. I was considering a character that wasn't human, but your solution for a favoured class bonus works quite well. I really have nothing more to add.
Glad you like it. Hope it works, should you try it.
...if you learned to train with a sword while blind there has to be something that you had to do to make up for it. Something as simple as a bonus on non-visual Perception checks can represent this, or even giving the character Blindfight as a background trait. I admit, it would be a nice...
To touch on the "extra feat or skills" point, one could say that playing a human, you already receive an extra feat and skill point per level to reflect the ability to overcome diversity, plus being immune to the various spells and special abilities that require sight (gaze, some bard abilities, etc).
However, I don't see why as a GM that I couldn't modify an existing favored class alternate to suit someone with a disability. I say favored class instead of racial trait because as you mentioned, "...learned to train with a sword while blind..." not born with the ability to fight blind.
Example: Blind Swordsman: Add +1 to the fighter’s miss chance percentile roll to one type of weapon [melee or missile] (maximum +20).
Space Titanium wrote:
This is my interpretation of the Vow of Poverty, I could see myself playing a character with that characteristic without changing the RAW, but it would be nice if I could get something to help.
I posted on this earlier, but I'll copy it to here for ease of reading.
In return for the services and any income of the VoP participant, the church (aka the GM) provides the PC, and his party if necessary, with housing, mounts when needed, food and clothing, healing and any other service needed to maintain physical, emotional and spiritual health. The church can also "gift" a monk on the VoP with permanent spells cast on them. If you give a church 880,000 GP, they better have someone cast some Miracle spells and buff a stat or two IMO.
I've had this happen to me. The DM of a promising group I found about six months ago fell absolutely in love with me (no idea why). I had no interest in him. About three months afterwards (and some ridiculous drama), I had to inform him I wasn't interested. He ended up threatening me with violence.
My sympathies Patcher.
My current significant other had slept with her 2nd edition DM. Sadly, the sex was terrible. Then she noticed how bad his game was.
It also only takes one fight to kill someone. Saying we only have 2 fights a session as opposed to 10 does not mean the party is not in more danger than normal since you might only have 3 effective characters on the battlefield. ...I just wanted to point out that 3 effective people will make for a less affective fight than 4 effective people if the 4th person is not pulling their weight. Even if the 4th person is just barely ok the party is still in more danger than they would be if he were better mechanically. That does not mean play a weaker character, but I fail to see how having one component being weaker does not obviously weaken the party as a whole. Normal Party [x+x+x+x] > Party with slightly weaker member [x+x+x+(x-1)]
It's true, each fight could be your last, but 10 fights obviously have a greater chance to kill you (if they are all of your party's APL) or if you don't have time to rest and heal between. That's why I suggested not playing VoP for hack-n-slash.
I had mentioned earlier about various encounter types. A normal CR 13 could be a Glabrezu. It could also be 64 gnolls, 16 dire hyneas, and 6 stone giants. Every character will flourish in different kinds of encounters so it's hard to make a blanket comment "this character will not be effective in any encounter."
I am certainly not arguing that four is better than three. That would be a failure of math on my part. What I am attempting to convey is that I do not feel that the VoP monk cannot pull it's own weight. The only way I can truly support this statement (I suppose) is to write up a VoP monk for various levels, but I have a massive headache right now and will need to do so later to continue this sticking point.
magnuskn wrote:
The game is built on a certain assumption of character power which, sadly to me, is achieved in part via tons of magical bling. It is not "munchkin" to accept that as a basic premise, but rather it is just looking at the reality of how higher CR monsters are mechanically built.
As there are no official alternate rules to get around the "need magic items to not suck" paradigm of Pathfinder and prior 3.x editions, the UM VoP is written badly from a mechanical point of view...Monk, a class widely regarded as having problems of keeping up with the rest of the party under normal circumstances...SKR then comes in and basically denounces people for expecting that Paizo should publish balanced rules is just the cherry on top.
Character power and gear is definitely part of the equation. Higher CR monsters are also a pain. But not every high CR needs to be a singular monster. In my own gaming group, we've found those to be boring and have replaced [insert one demon here] with lots of lower CRs to be an equivalent encounter (and better suited for lower magic games). I guess what I should be saying is the VoP is better suited for low magic games, but I still believe it can function in normal magic as well (goes back to writing up the character and this headache is still religious).
The VoP is not great, mechanics wise. That's never been the argument. Even SKR said it is "suboptimal."
As far as the monk not being able to keep up, I have the absolute value of zero faith in that statement. In a non-broken, non-minimaxed game, no class is ineffective. A party make-up may be ineffective, but not a singular class. People can break down numbers all they want, show the damage potential of this class and that class, but all that goes out the window once you add in the free will and customization done by a PC. If I want to play a diviner wizard, I'm going to even if [insert build here] would do better damage. If a PC wants to play a fighter that shield bashes while wielding a light crossbow in the other hand, as apposed to using whatever will do the most damage, they will. If a PC wants to take feats that gives some extra utility attacks (like Dirty Trick) instead of Power Attack and Weapon Specialization, a PC will. Unless you are trying to optimize, the numbers potential presented by the various breakdowns done by people will almost never intentionally occur.
As an English major with Critical Theory emphasis (in which I have to disseminate published works for authorial intention), I can say with zero doubt SKR was not denouncing anyone for wanting Paizo to create published balanced rules (anyone who brings Derrida into this loses). His points were as follows:
*Pathfinder is designed for you to succeed even if you take suboptimal choices in character creation. In fact, APL and CR equations were built in mind with enough "difficulty padding" that no one is required to optimize or be geniuses with their class and they still should succeed.
*One aspect of character conception is the ability to say "I will play a difficult class concept for the sake of fun, knowing full well the consequences of said concept."
*Turning a negative into a positive is an imbecilic dimension-reversing duality.
His line "If you want a game where all builds are equally viable, you should play a different game," is not a denouncement. It is a statement that Pathfinder offers the freedom to make good or bad choices in character creation and does not force you to play an optimized character (like other games that are currently in their quartic stage).
Despite interspersed frustration in the post, never once did SKR publicly condemn, censure, or accuse players of wanting balanced rules to be wrong. I hope that this has shown that effectively.
Space Titanium wrote:
...this is a bad assumption...Rather than a flaw, let's consider the Vow of Poverty a challenge. To swear off the material trappings of a world is a big deal, but to consider that it's a flaw is a mistake in interpretation. A challenge creates growth, whereas a flaw cannot be dealt with...Consider Zatoichi the Blind Swordsman. He may be blind, but he can still manage to cutdown swaths of other samurai.
You're right, allow me to reword: It isn't required that a PC should get something in return for choosing to undertake a challenge because playing a challenging character is a choice, not a requirement.
A blind character (like Zatoichi) does not have to receive blindsight for choosing to be blind, but he'd be silly not to take the Blind-Fighting feat.
...those who play this game of ours for story and character development don't mix with those who optomize.
Truth. I feel that the majority of counter-points are "I don't want a worthless VoP monk in my party not pulling his weight," which supports your statement.
Mikaze wrote:
Some of us want to roleplay that(original VoP gearless monk). But we can't roleplay that around the reality that the rest of the party is endangered by our incompetence or that they're constantly having to put us back together. You can't roleplay an enlightened monk around constantly feeling like a millstone around your freinds' necks.
If you'd like to RP a monk with old VoP, go for it. I just wouldn't allow it in my game. The party and the GM should understand that by allowing an UM VoP character into the party, there may be some issues with scaling. I've reiterated that a few times, so I'll move on.
I don't see how the rest of the party is endangered by a VoP character. Statistically speaking? So having a VoP character that does less damage than a normal non-broken, non-minimaxed character puts the party in grave danger? I don't see that serving a pancyclopedic amount of games. I can see the possibility of "party endangerment" as a totality in hack-n-slash dungeon crawls. I'd suggest not taking VoP in that type of game.
And incompetence goes back to skill with the class and tactics, plus random dice rolling. A VoP character is not by it's existence incompetent, it may just be underpowered. I've discussed this in an earlier post.
The original VoP was in fact a great option. Mostly, an option for players who wanted their cake and eat it too and munchkins though. It boils down to the fact, excluding the oracle curses non-debate, negatives should not be positives. If a player wants schizophrenia, he has to deal with the adverse effects as listed in the Gamemastery Guide. You shouldn't be able to say, play an amazing skills rogue that once combat happens, have schizophrenia trigger and turn into a barbarian capable of turning encounters into meat tornadoes. It isn't required that he should get something in return for having a flaw because playing someone with a flaw is a choice, not a requirement.
You do realise, now you've pointed that out, that's how everyone will try to interpret it, don't you?
The idea of a blingtastic monk, in his ermine coat, ruby-studded crown, drinking his gruel from a golden chalice, while denouncing the evils of materialism, does make me chuckle somewhat.
Yeah, hence my disclaimer. Controverting with intentional munchkins won't help the VoP discussion reach maturescence, so I'd just ignore anyone who tries to use my example as a way for The Hypocrite Aesthete Monk to exist.
I was reminded of the rich guy begging for money in Bioware's Jade Empire just now.
...Roll and declare you save no matter what you roll 'even if it's a one?' Challenge the party with inappropriately lethal encounters? Fail saves and then on-purpose ignore their effects? Purposefully go out of your way to kill PCs?
The only thing I'd add to this is PCs can run away. I refer to Red Hand of Doom as a published example as a situation where standing and fighting is suicide.
Now, if your GM is doing something diabolical (e.g. Troll fighters who have rings of major acid and fire resistance on their ribs, Red dragons with an army of iron golems, wizards riding inside gelatinous cubes with force bubbles) every encounter, it can get old and falls back to being a bad GM.
You're absolutely right, it is NOT the GM's game however.
...It does not matter if you roll 100 on your perception check to detect the assassin coming in your camp...you'll either just hear a twig snap...and the assassin will come back the next night to kill the npc you are protecting(and again till he succeeds)...or you will just auto fail. It does not matter if God comes down and say you will win...it just does not matter.
This is the worst. Part of an organic story is the ability for PCs to come up with clever solutions and the GM to adapt to them, not punish the PCs by making their discovery or actions, whether accidental or not, invalid.
This is like when a GM plays a PC at the same time and makes his PC the star of the game. Terrible.
Hama wrote:
Dungeon masters can't cheat...they can only be good DMs or bad DMs...
How is it now more loot over skill story when in the fabled glorious role-playing past, loot was necessary for character advancement?
You seem to be defining "loot" as treasure when in my initial post, this not what I did. Regardless, treasure was never required for character advancement in any game I played in the glorious past, mechanics wise or because of the GM's play style.
Treasure always played a direct role in character PERMANENCE.
This is my last response to our back-and-forth banter because it strikes me as more argumentative and not really contributing in a positive fashion to the initial discussion of VoP and roleplay vs contribution. Good luck with your gaming.
Sean K wrote:
Well, I'm glad you liked that post. Thanks. :)
It was a post that I enjoyed and felt it should be brought out of that mire of a thread it was in.
bugleyman wrote:
The thing is, options which are mechanically crippling don't really enable role playing
Would you agree that it could encourage roleplay? I'd agree that, on a generic basis, that no game mechanic really enables role-play (spell component gathering, crafting, and kingdom building in Kingmaker does potentially).
bugleyman wrote:
New mechanics should enable the pursuit of a role playing courses that were previously nonviable for mechanical reasons.
This is well said, but I feel that new mechanics should not make your sacrifice null and void or hollow for that fact.
I refer back to my earlier post of "if someone wants to take PoV, it should be discussed with the party and GM as a whole." 'Effective contribution' shouldn't exist as l'esprit de l'escalier to fun of the roleplayer once game begins, but 'effective contribution' should be a guiding principle.
I had a ranger that, while neutral good, was a terrible xenophobic against anything he did not feel was "of this world", causing him to take Favored Enemy: Undead and Evil Outsider. I was able to ingratiate my roleplay element of wanting to progress humanoid goals into existing game mechanics and not be a drawback for the party.
I have also had a character with one eye and gave partial cover to everything. I've also had a player in my group that was a CN priest that only healed people that were in the negatives by hitting them with a spell storing mace because of his religious beliefs. Either way, both concepts were discussed, approved and plenty of fun for our game style.
roguerouge wrote:
As soon as dice come into it, the Vow of Poverty makes it more likely to sideline the player from the only thing that counts: affecting the story based on your decisions.
I only partially agree with this because part of any organic story is the random chaos that can occur with good and bad dice rolls. While this randomness isn't as prevalent as say, in Blood Bowl or Toon, it still is as important as PC decisions IMO.
I was part of a gaming group that was in Return to The Temple of Elemental Evil. After a grueling fight with the red dragon, the randomness of the damage rolls reduced the dragon to 1 Hp exactly. The dragon yielded (of course as a trick), trying to appeal to the paladin's code of conduct (and offering a role play opportunity). The Lawful Good fighter in the party was from Kara-Tur and viewed dragons as world builders and destroyers and was afraid the dragon would betray his friends, so he launched a missile weapon at said dragon. The fighter rolled a natural 20 and scored 35 damage. Out of nowhere, another PC who was a Devoted Defender, immediately made the dragon his ward, threw himself in front of said weapon. He was crit instead for 35, which was the exact needed to outright kill him including negative CON score.
Because of dice randomness, everyone's independent decisions became part of a larger narrative that was far more memorable. With that being said, drawbacks like VoP don't kill roleplay opportunities, as much as potentially influence them in key moments by adding another variable to the dice roll.
roguerouge wrote:
But you will surely agree that transcendence is a strictly personal endeavor, self-oriented in the extreme.
Sure. While the character goal is self-oriented, hopefully his character creation was a group effort if he wanted to play this style of character.
Another VoP option that isn't self oriented maybe a paladin who after nearly being killed, has a blood loss-induced vision of serving his god without arms and armor. Paladin 4 now takes a level of Monk, donating his worldly goods between the church and his party. He can carry potions, wands, etc. if need be because VoP doesn't say you can't carry anything...you simply can't own them.
Obviously, a monk can't carry bracers of armor +8 on his wrists until someone wants it. Trying to twist the wording doesn't serve this discussion in any positive fashion, so let's all ignore that and move on.
We now move into the the more real world version of VoP, where instead of interpreting VoP as being forever poor, one rather shares everything in common. This paladin/monk views his vow of poverty as more "I don't privately own anything because everything I have is for the Church and you, my adventuring companions." Everything they find as treasure is used for the common good of the party and the church.
In return for the services and any income of the participant, the church (aka the GM) provides the PC, and his party if necessary, with housing, mounts when needed, food and clothing, healing and any other service needed to maintain physical, emotional and spiritual health. The church can also "gift" a monk on the VoP with permanent spells cast on them. If you give a church 880,000 GP, they better have someone cast some Miracle spells and buff a stat or two IMO.
Ah, sorry, mate. I'll leave your thread alone. ToZ and Gorby are fun to engage with, and it's hard for me to resist. But I guess thats what we have OTD for.
By the way, I agree completely with your original post.
Thanks, and banter with whomever you want. I was just commenting on the fact I was sad about the rage to be had.
Somewhere along the line, the "loot over skill/story" that is so prevalent in video gaming has taken a much greater hold with tabletop gaming than it has in the past
Now, I don't know much about early editions, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that experience was DIRECTLY TIED loot gained in early editions.
Damn hardcore role-player infestations with their "good ol' days" that never exist. I wish they would stick to systems where role-playing IS the game rather than an enhancement to it rather than trying to talk down to people who don't like role-playing that much and waxing delusional about imaginary pasts. We need some RPernix.
You seemed to overlook I said "loot over skill/story." Experience, nor character advancement or progression, ever came into question. Skill refers to ability to play your class effectively; story is self explanatory.
That's not a bad thing, intrinsically. But many players do use character building as a surrogate for actual play, and I think that's less than desirable.
Would you define 'actual play' for the forum, sir? :)
I was commenting in a thread the other day where this was brought up. The poster commented that their players enjoyed the process of character creation (making a backstory, reading the preliminary materials, drawing up the character based on the limitations of the campaign world, etc) far more than anything else involving the game. When actually playing with said characters, the game was effectively a letdown.
That sounds like a possible GM issue, maybe not being able to capitalize on said wealth of backstories?
You mean that will beat the PF Fighter preview flamestorm? That means they have to nerf the Core fighter in UC, that's kind of impossible hopefully.
If fighters do not get the ability to shoot fire out of their collective butts and grow prehensile tails with natural attacks that act as bane weapons against anyone who can cast a spell, some people are going to be angry, I tell you.
I just want everyone to know that my happiness cup is now empty.
