Jain_Mor's page

Question why are your players different levels? APR can get a little messy and hard providing a challenging but not impossible encounter.

That said the players won't really be challenged until CR+4 or higher. Your APL is 10 but you have higher and lower players so the monster that can challenge the level 9 is easy for the level 12. Now I just did the average of the levels but CR is dependent on other factors as well like party wealth, stat array, with that in mind your part is probably a car 12 so all those monsters you posted were only a speed bump. The orc while being the lowest CR was probably the best designed encounter so far. There is a good article around here on encounter dynamics and action economy for GMs. I'm going to look for it and post it.

Any luck on that article? :)

There's no "behind" in PF; no facing rules.

Using a grapple check to establish the hold sounds good. Given how tricky the garotte is, it makes sense that you provoke from bystanders. Note that you automatically hit (and maintain) against helpless opponents, which is fine.

I think the damage is on the low side. A garotte will do three things;

1) cut off your air supply. For this we should use the drowning rules. However, since the victim was not warned, maybe hasn't taken a deep breath, and could be on the "short clock" towards death. This should probably be simulated with a Reflex save.

2) threaten to cut the throat; human throats aren't all that tough and a sharp wire used by a strong attacker could sever jugular veins. Decapitating seems a bit of a stretch though.

3) prevent the victim from speaking.

Actually I think a garotte should be a SoD-like weapon. If it takes you 3 rounds to kill a victim you catch out of breath, that's actually a long time in combat. And garottes should be seriously scary.

There maybe no "behind" in PF rules, but RPing wise, you try and use a garrote from in front of someone and see what happens :P

1) Actually I'm modelling these garrotes as cutting off the blood supply to your brain, which is essentially cutting off the air supply to your brain but it ignores how much air is already in your system. That's why I'm using the Sleeper Hold Feat, which is a SoD I guess, but not immediately, only after an amount of rounds equal to your con bonus (that half orc barbarian is going to put up a fight..)

2) Not sure sharp wire is a normal thing that could be used in a "Medieval" setting, however if one would obtain one like a modern garrote, then I'd say you can apply sneak attack damage to the initial grapple. The reason why the damage is low is because it seemed weird that it would do as much as short sword :/

3) I did think about that, the victim needs to make a high concentration check to cast verbal spells, so I wanted something similar for talking... Perhaps "The garrote prevents the victim from shouting out" is fine. They can talk, just, and need to make a check for verbal spells, but getting someones attention in another room isn't possible.

4) and my intention was that once the victim is knocked out you can continue to use the suffocation rules to kill them if you wished.

Thanks for the advice, thoughts on the other points? I'm going to update the post :)

Edit: turns out I can't edit the post XD

Yes.

Note: I do not believe this is the intent. I believe the intent is that neither side has an combat maneuver or dexterity penalty related to grapple checks. However, that is not what is written.

Right cool, nice to a hear a confirmation on thoughts. Then I guess I will house rule it. Cheers :)

CRB p567 wrote:

Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

The penalty to dexterity is across the board. Anyone in a grapple has a -4 dexterity penalty.

However, the -2 penalty to attack does not apply to grapple checks or escaping a grapple check.

Because the -4 dexterity applies and the -2 attack does not apply yes, there is effectively a hidden +2 bonus (in the form of -2 to CMD) to maintain a grapple.

Regarding the +5 being cumulative, no, it is not. Anytime you are attempting to maintain a grapple you have a +5 bonus.

Summary:
To maintain a grapple you have a +5 bonus on top of your normal grapple bonus and the opponent probably has a -2 penalty to CMD (due to the -4 Dex penalty).

OK, but then when it comes to your opponents round they make a normal CMB check against your penaltied CMD (which has a -2 penalty) to escape?

"A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple."

The penalties to attacks don't apply when using them against your fellow grappler, but the penalty to dex does?

I guess you're right it is a philosophical question.

And I didn't mean sneak attack damage, I meant your number of sneak attack die, ie level 3 rogue does 2d6 in sneak damage, he has 2 sneak attack die, so has a +2 bonus to CMB and CMD against an opponent he grappled instead of using a sneak attack.

Also if there is no facing in pathfinder does that mean RAW it's not possible to sneak up silently behind someone in daylight? Or is it just something we hand wave as DMs?

Some questions that I couldn't find answered on all the other forum posts made on grappling -.-

So the dominant grappler get's a +5 bonus to maintain the grapple in subsequent rounds right? I assume this doesn't increase by another 5 each round does it?

Also this bonus only applies to the CMB check to maintain the grapple at the start of your round? It doesn't help your CMD against your opponent when they try and escape in their round? If not why not?
You over came their CMD to initiate the grapple (plus their AoO) and then in their turn they just have to overcome yours to escape, rendering the whole process pointless?

Also when grappling you get a -4 to Dex, does this apply against your grappling opponent as well? ie your CMD is reduced by 2 when you are grappling? So it's actually easier for your opponent to escape your grapple?

I feel like I must be missing something?

There also aren't any rules for surprising someone from behind with a grapple is there? I know they are denied their dex to their intial CMD because they are flat-footed, but in the subsequent grapple checks you gain no bonuses from catching them from behind?
If not, my thoughts would be to allow a character to add their number of sneak attack dice to their CMB and CMD against an opponent they grapple when they could have sneak attacked them instead. Thoughts?

Many thanks in advance :)

Couldn't find any rules for a group based gambling game like poker, so spent a good amount of time coming up with this :)

Step 0) determine the "dealer" and table seating order, choices always take place in order going clockwise from the dealer. Players can of course take turns "dealing".

1) All players buy in for the round (as set by NPCs or PCs as appropriate)

2) Players roll a d20 in private, this represents the strength of their initial "hand". The maximum a player can have throughout the following steps, including bonuses, is 20 and the minimum is 1.

3) DM rolls a d6 or d10 (depending on how high stakes the game is) and multiplies the buy in amount by this number. Players then choose if they want to meet this amount based on their initial roll, to have a chance at winning the pot.

4) players may now choose to cheat, roll a sleight of hand check to add a bonus equal to double the amount on the DC table listed below to your initial hand roll. Then reveal your initial roll and reset it's number to your new value (initial roll + cheating bonus), this now counts as your final "hand", you may skip the next step.
Players can choose to roll perception to catch cheats, if they succeed then roleplay accordingly (perhaps the cheater bluffs that he made a mistake and wasn't sure on the rules etc)

5)Players now reveal their initial rolls and then roll to finish their "hand". To do this you must roll a d20+int modifier and compare it to your initial roll.
If you roll equal to or up to 4 more than your initial roll, make no changes
If you roll 5 to 9 more reset your initial roll, increasing it by 1.
If you roll 10 more reset it, increasing it by 2, and so on
If you roll 1 to 5 less, then reset your initial roll decreasing it by 1
If you roll 6 to 10 less than reset your initial roll decreasing it by 2
And so on.
If you hit a 20 (including your int mod) you always add another additional +1.
And if you reach 1 you will always get an additional -1 (note, if you have any int modify it's not possible to get a 1)

For example, Jehu's initial roll is a 13, he chooses to take a risk and bet on it, he rerolls and gets 19, his int is +2 so that totals 21, however 20 is the maximum so we treat it as 20. 20 is more than 5 higher than his initial roll of 13 but less than 10 higher, so he gets a bonus of +1, but he also reached 20, so he gets another +1, this means his initial roll is now reset to 2 higher than before, his final "hand" is 15.

Example 2, bob rolls a 20, and obviously bets on it. He then rolls to finish his hand and rolls a 1, he has no intelligence modifier (uh oh), 1 is 19 less than 20, so that's a -4 bonus, he also hit 1 so that's another -1, resetting his roll to 15, uh oh, and will have to make up for it in the next steps

Basically if you roll a 20 (1 in 20 chance) you then have to roll another 20 (another 1 in 20 chance) to keep it, having intelligence helps you achieve this. This means the chances of someone automatically getting the best hand is far less then if they just rolled 1d20 (a 1 in 20 chance!), and improving a bad hand is easier: if you roll a 1 on your first roll and for some reason decide to play, you can't make it worse, but for every 5 your roll above it you better your hand.

That was my eureka, and I don't think gambling can work without this skew towards more average hands.

At the end of this step, if anyone actually has a 20 they win/share the pot, they have the best possible hand, it was difficult to achieve (roll 2 20s!) and no amount of bluffing etc is going to stop them from riding it until the end.

6) Players now roll to see how confidant they are in their hand compared to the rest of the table, this is a sense motive check that uses the DC table listed below. The bonuses from the table do not reset your final hand die, they merely add on to it.

If the players with the highest final hand dice reach 20 with this sense motive round they win/share the pot. They have the highest value hand (their final hand die IS the highest) and no amount of bluffing is going to stop them from riding it until the end, and so the bluff step is pointless as you can't get higher than 20.

7) Players now roll to overcome peoples confidence in their hands, this is a bluff check that uses the DC table listed below. The bonuses from the table do not reset your final hand die, they merely add on to it, in addition to the bonus granted in the sense motive step.

The player with the highest total including bonuses wins the pot. If players are tied (for example they have both managed to reach 20) then they "reveal their hands" and the player with the highest final hand dice without the bonuses wins.

For example, Jehu has a final hand of 16, and bob has a final hand of 17. Bob gets +1 on his sense motive and so does Jehu. Bob gets 1 on his bluff but Jehu gets 3.
Jehu is now 16+1+3=20, but bob is
17+1+1=19, Jehu wins the pot despite bob actually having a higher hand.

Another: Jehu has a final hand of 16, and bob has a final hand of 17. Bob gets +2 on his sense motive and so does Jehu. Bob gets 2 on his bluff and Jehu gets 2.
Jehu is now 16+2+2=20, but bob is
17+2+2=21, since you can't get higher than 20 this is treated as 20, so Jehu and bob are at a draw, bob "calls Jehus bluff" since "he is confidant enough in his hand". Hands are "revealed" in character (though the dice were always revealed out of character since step 5) and the one with the highest is bob and so he wins the pot.

Another: Jehu has a final hand of 18, and bob has a final hand of 16. Bob gets +4 on his sense motive! and Jehu only gets +2. However, Jehu actually has the highest roll and is now at 20 with bonuses so he is confidant enough in his hand (he has an 18!) that no amount of bluffing is going to stop Jehu from seeing it to the end, so we may as well "reveal" then and indeed Jehu would win
However if Jehu only got +1 on his sense motive he would be at 19 and therefore not ultimately confidant, and so bob has some wiggle room, if Jehu doesn't get another +1 from his bluff check then bob can then win the pot with his 20.

This all basically means that bluffing and sense motive are more impactful when people have lower rolls (which are more frequent because of the final hand roll in step 5), but are less impactful when people actually have the rarer amazing hands, though there is still room to edge things out through bluffing etc if things go in your favour, or if you are superior than your fellow players.

Skill check bonus DC TABLE!
DC 20: +1 bonus
DC 25: +2
DC 30: +3
etc

Thoughts? It's designed to emulate the skills needed in gambling but also to be fun in game as the rounds go by seeing who overtakes who on the dice rolls and who is now in the lead :)

After a week or so of trawling through forum posts regarding the uselessness of the garrote (lol I hold my breath), and wanting to include it in my campaign, I've put together some rules here based upon the garrote rules in 3.5 pathfinder and the sleeper hold feat.

I want your thoughts before I introduce it to my campaign :)

Garrote
Exotic Two-handed Melee Weapon
Cloth or Leather, 1gp, 1d4, 19-20x2, Bludgeoning (nonlethal)
Wire, 3gp, 1d4, 19-20x2, Slashing (lethal)

A garrote is a length of wire or thin rope with wooden handles at both ends. The wire is placed across a victim's throat and crossed behind the neck; when the handles are pulled tight, the garrote blood-chokes them.

Classes with sneak attack are proficient with the garrote. Using a garrote requires two hands. It is ineffective against a character with metal neck protection, such as those on any form of heavy armor. It can only be used against a target with a neck, no more than one size category larger than the attacker.

In order for you to use a garrote you must be behind your opponent, and your opponent must be helpless or unaware of you. You must make a grapple check (though you avoid the –4 penalty for not having two hands free) to successfully begin garroting your opponent. This provokes an attack of opportunity, though opponents that are unaware of you or are helpless do not threaten you. Sneak attack damage does not apply to a garrote, however you gain a bonus to your CMB and CMD against your opponent during the garrote grapple, equal to your number of sneak attack dice.

Your garroted opponent must make a concentration check (DC 20 + your CMB + level of the spell he’s casting) to cast a spell with a verbal component, use a command word item, or use any magic requiring speech.

Successfully grappling or maintaining the grapple deals damage with the garrote. After maintaining the grapple the only grappling actions you can take are moving or releasing the victim.

Grappling with the garrote has a blood-choke effect as per the Sleeper Hold feat:
If you maintain the grapple for a number of consecutive rounds equal to your opponent’s Constitution bonus (minimum 1 round), you can attempt to knock out your opponent. The victim must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier) or else it falls unconscious for 1d4 rounds. Each successive round you attempt this, the target takes a cumulative –1 penalty on its saving throw. Creatures that are immune to bleed damage, stunning, or critical hits are immune to this ability.

It actually does something now, though only in specific circumstances, and isn't SoD. Thoughts? :D